Career leave and building client relationships as a leading law firm Partner with Xue Wang
Full transcript follows.
The first woman partner at a major international law firm in Tokyo is my guest in the finale of Season Two of Lawyer on Air. Not only is she a Partner but she is about to take her second maternity leave, so this is an episode not to be missed for anyone considering taking leave to spend more time with their family or considering a sabbatical and wondering how it might affect your career.
If you enjoyed this episode and it inspired you in some way, we’d love to hear about it and know your biggest takeaway. Head over to Apple Podcasts to leave a review and we’d love it if you would leave us a message here!
In this episode you’ll hear:
How Xue overcame the challenge of doing a law degree in her third language
Navigating being accepted for a trainee role in a top “Magic Circle” firm
How Xue secured a secondment to a company in Japan
Helping to create the maternity leave policy at her law firm and how a coach helped her to reframe the time out from her career
How Xue is navigating taking a second maternity leave, this time as a Partner
The danger of self imposed glass ceilings for women in their legal careers
Her favourite book and other fun facts
About Xue
Xue is a Partner in Allen & Overy’s Tokyo office, one of the leading international law firms globally, and specializes in the development and financing of energy and infrastructure projects, and on energy transition projects and initiatives. Xue’s clients include leading international energy companies, financial institutions and government or multilateral agencies involved in these projects across the world, and she regularly works on a wide range of energy and infrastructure projects in Africa, the Middle East, Europe APAC and LatAm. Xue’s practice also covers Japan and China, and prior to the pandemic she also used to spend a significant amount of time in China on a fly in fly out basis.
Xue was born in China, but spent most of her formative years in Germany before moving to the UK for university. Since university, she has also lived in Paris, London, Brussels, Hong Kong and spent about 6 months travelling the world before starting her legal career. She joined A&O as a trainee in London in 2017 and has been with A&O ever since. In 2011, she had the opportunity to come to Japan for a client secondment with Mitsui bussan, where she spent 18 months on secondment, working as part of the infrastructure business unit. She rejoined A&O’s Tokyo office in 2013 and has been building her practice and career here ever since, and was promoted as the first female partner in the Tokyo office in 2020.
Xue is a mother of one (about to be two) and lives in Tokyo with her husband. She’s passionate about promoting diversity and inclusion in the legal profession and would love to see more women and diversity in leadership positions. In her spare time, she likes to cook, snowboard, cycle, run and travel the world.
Connect with Xue
Links
Mama Luisa’s Restaurant: http://www.luisa-table.com/
How to avoid a climate change disaster by Bill Gates
Connect with Catherine
Linked In https://www.linkedin.com/in/oconnellcatherine/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lawyeronair
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/catherine.oconnell.148
Twitter: https://twitter.com/oconnelllawyer
Transcript
Catherine: Hi, everyone. Welcome to Episode 10, the final episode in Season 2 of Lawyer on Air. I'm Catherine O'Connell. Today, I am joined by Xue Wang, who is a partner in Allen & Overy’s Tokyo office. One of the world's leading international law firms, A&O specialise in the development and financing of energy and infrastructure projects.
They also specialise on energy transition projects and initiatives. Xue serves clients who are leading international energy companies, financial institutions, and government or multilateral agencies involved in these projects across the world. Xue regularly works on a wide range of energy and infrastructure projects in Africa, the Middle East, Europe, APAC and Latin America, and Xue’s own practice also covers Japan and China.
And prior to the pandemic, she used to always spend a lot of time in China on a fly in, fly out basis. Born in China, Xue spent most of her formative years in Germany, and she moved to the UK for university from 2000 to 2004 at the University of Edinburgh, graduating with a master of arts and business and economics in 2004.
Then she was at the college of law to undertake her graduate diploma in law from 2004 to five. And she then went to BPP law school for their legal practice course from 2005 to six. So since graduating university Xue has lived in Paris, London, Brussels, and Hong Kong. What I love is that Xue also spent about six months traveling the world between 2006 and seven before she started her legal career.
And I look forward to us talking a little bit more about that and her life today. Xue also joined A&O as a trainee in 2007 in London. And she's been with A&O ever since. So that's around 14 years by my calculation. In 2011, she had the opportunity to come to Japan for a client secondment with Mitsui Bussan.
Where she spent 18 months on secondment working as part of the infrastructure business unit. She rejoined A&O’s Tokyo office in 2013 and has been building her practice and her career ever since. So it's really super exciting that in 2020 Xue was promoted to partner in the Tokyo office. And not only that, Xue was the first female partner in the Tokyo office.
And so this is a really tremendous thing to hear. Xue is a mother of one. And when this episode airs, Xue will be about to change that status in to being a mother of two. Her ability to take leave while being a key partner in the firm speaks volumes about the diversity philosophy of A&O.
And we will hear more about that today and how she's managed that leave alongside her partner’s, her husband's, parental leave. Xue lives in Tokyo with her husband. She's passionate about promoting diversity and inclusion in the legal profession. And she tells me that her vision is that she would love to see more women and diversity in leadership positions.
Xue is a passionate volunteer in the community, and she serves alongside me in the executive committee and is also co vice president of women in law, Japan for 2021. In her spare time, and yes, she does find time to do other activities, she likes to cook, to snowboard, cycle and run, and when she can, travel the world.
So as you can tell from that introduction Xue is yet another wonderful lawyer extraordinaire, and I'm really pleased to bring Xue to you as my guest today. Xue welcome to the show.
Xue: Thank you so much, Catherine. It's an absolute pleasure to be here today with you, and thank you so much for that very, very comprehensive introduction.
Catherine: I think I covered everything. Although there may be a few things missing, which we will find out as we go. Thank you so much. And today Xue, we're going to be talking about your career path, how you navigated your studies across several countries, your current partner role and impending maternity leave, along with A&O’s diversity program.
And I'd love you to also talk about your passions for advocacy for women. And if you can please do give us some gems of advice for young lawyers on their career path. How does that sound?
Xue: That sounds fantastic. Thank you Catherine.
Catherine: Great. Well, today we are online. In fact, I'm in New Zealand currently having done my managed quarantine and home isolation and now I'm working remotely as this episode airs.
But if we were meeting up in person, and when I get back to Tokyo I hope to do that, where would we be? Do you have a favorite wine bar or cafe or restaurant you love to go to? And what is your choice of beverage off the menu today?
Xue: There are so many good restaurants in Tokyo, as you know. And you know, I've been looking forward to going to some of them again. It seems like it's been so long since I've had a good night out at a nice restaurant. But if I could choose any, I think we would meet up at Mama Louisa's, which is a little Italian restaurant towards Ebisu, run by a lovely man and Italian guy and they serve fantastic pasta, great food all around, and it's just a very relaxed and chilled atmosphere to be catching up in.
Catherine: I have been there once before I think with one of my jolly good friends, Debbie, and I'm not sure that I've been back since. I would love to go there. And I guess now you're not drinking wine, but would you normally have a red wine or white wine while you're at that restaurant?
Xue: I think for this occasion, you know, I'd love a nice, cold, bubbly glass of Prosecco actually for our conversation. As you said, not drinking at the moment, unfortunately.
Catherine: It's good though, it sounds lovely. Let's do that when I can. And when you're able to as well, that would be great. And Xue, I was trying to think about when we officially met. I think it might've been late 2019 when Rika Beppu, who was leading Women in Law, Japan and you and I were on the EXCOM at that time working together. And then again, obviously this year through 2021. Is that when it was?
Xue: I think that is when it was.
Although I'm sure I've met you at other in-person Women in Law, Japan events before I joined the EXCOM, and was more involved in the organisational part. I also attended a lot of the Women in Law, Japan events, and I'm sure we've met at one of those events as well in the years prior to 2019.
And I hope we can go back again soon, all those in-person events.
Catherine: Hopefully, yes. And you've been a real shining presenter this year in that skills workshop, how to be a more effective business developer. I know you gave the private practice side of things, how to be client-facing, marketing, and understanding your firm and culture and things like that.
That was a great event. Wasn't it?
Xue: Thank you, Catherine. Yes, I had the pleasure of hosting that event together with Angela Krantz from Amazon. And we talked a little bit about business development, both from the private practice perspective, but also from the in-house perspective.
Catherine: And it was so popular, wasn't it? You did a second run of it and it was so popular.
Xue: It was great. It was great. And it was great for us as well.
You know, it's nice to have a smaller session. People are very engaged in the discussion and it's obviously a topic that is very close to people's hearts, in terms of how to develop your business, how to carry yourself, how to market yourself, how to mindfully claim credits for your work, during your everyday life, and that's equally important whether you are in private practice or in house, in fact.
Catherine: Yeah. And I think sometimes when you move in-house you forget that that branding is still important. Mindfully collecting credits on your work. I love the way you said that because we feel sometimes perhaps, as in-house counsel that you don't need to do that anymore, but through that event, and I know it's your philosophy too, as you've just said, that it is important, whether you're in-house or a law firm lawyer, it's very important to be able to be more of an effective business developer.
Right?
Xue: Absolutely. And I can't take credit for that wonderful phrase. That was Angela who coined it
Catherine: Was it?
Xue: But it inspired me because I thought that was such a great point.
Catherine: Thank you Angela.
Xue: Yeah. Thank you very much, Angela. For that nugget of wisdom.
Catherine: It's claiming credits, but mindfully claiming credits is a really different approach to it. And I really love how she's expressed that, and that you've passed it on so we can continue to have others who listen to this podcast today also use it, with thanks Angela, with your approval.
All right. So Xue, your background. We're going to dive into your career in a moment, but those really early days, what did you want to be when you were a child?
Xue: Gosh, thinking back it was not being a lawyer, I have to admit. When I was a child, growing up in Germany, I had all these fantastic aspirations about being a scientist and winning a Nobel prize one day, in chemistry, perhaps. But then, as I progressed through my high school, perhaps realised that human arts are probably more my thing than sciences.
And I decided to go down the path of studying economics and business studies at university. During my university days then gradually realized that whilst I'm hugely interested in economics and business and finance as an area, but at the same time, also really enjoyed the logical thinking and the challenges of law, and what that entails and how to apply it to a business context.
And so that's how, after university I decided to do a law conversion and go into law rather than keep pursuing a career in finance.
Catherine: Oh, I see. So did you study law in Germany or was that when you came to the UK?
Xue: It was when I came to the UK. So, I did an undergraduate degree in Scotland, in Edinburgh, in economics and business studies. And my plan initially would have been to go into finance, become a banker, or go become a consultant or analyst. I even dabbled very briefly in accounting before realising it was really not my cup of tea.
Actually, I thought about changing to a legal degree already during university. I had a few friends who have studied law, and I never really thought of it to be honest, when I was in high school, because at that point, I moved to Germany when I was around eight years old and I went to a German school for about four to five years. But then I switched to an international school, with a mostly British and then a mixed sort of international school program. And so English was not only not my first language, it wasn't my second language. It was my third language.
And by the time I got to university, I still, whilst I was comfortable in English, I still didn't feel like I mastered it to a degree where I felt like I could be a lawyer and be that person that stands up in court and argues in front of judges and could eloquently express themselves.
So I focused on something that was more in my area of strength, more mathematical, and something that required analytical skills and numeracy, and economics and business really spoke to me.
Catherine: Right. That's interesting. And all that time in Europe. And I hadn't even thought about the fact that English would be your third language.
Xue: Yes. And now obviously it's the one that I'm most comfortable in. But back then, when you grow up with multiple languages, you find yourself not a hundred percent comfortable in any of them. So that's why, when I went into my undergraduate study, I preferred something that didn't rely so heavily on my language skills.
But then as I went through university and my English got better and better, I felt like, well, why not? I think I can do this. And I had a number of friends who were studying law.
It seemed like very interesting subject matter, and the logical thinking and analysis and problem solving that's required in the legal profession really spoke to me. But at the time, when in Scotland, because they have a civil law system, you can't just naturally go into qualifying in England and Wales.
You have to do the conversion course anyway. So there was no point in me switching halfway through my economics degree. So I decided to finish my economics degree and then do the conversion course postgraduate. And there's that great system in the UK where you can do that. You can study, you can come from a different legal system, or you can study something completely non-law related, and then do the conversion course afterwards plus the legal practice course.
And that effectively gets you to the same place as someone who has done a full law degree and then the practice course, and you can embark on your legal career, as long as you get a training contract with a UK firm.
So that's the path I decided to take. And it set me up really well because I think also, having finished that degree in economics and finance, given what I do now, which is mostly focused on finance and financings, it's given me a really good grounding that still comes in handy.
When we’re looking at day to day issues and problems in deals, talking about how to calculate interest or ratios or those really technical economics or finance related issues, it does actually help to have that background.
Catherine: Yeah, so it's not a waste and it was something really worthwhile to have done. And I'm hearing too, that your friends around you influenced you in coming to do law in the end there. And then the conversion happens and you start working as a trainee in A&O office, correct?
Xue: That's right.
Catherine: How did you find that role? Where do you find these trainee roles? Because I think they're not, they’re common enough, but finding one is actually pretty hard.
Xue: Yeah, it's very, very challenging. It's a very competitive process to get a training contract in the UK. I mean, most of the firms will offer a training contract program, but to get a training contract in one of the Magic Circle firms, as they call them in the UK, so the top five British origin international firms, and similarly to get training contracts in the big American firms that have a strong UK presence, those are very hard to come by and it's a very competitive process going in.
I will fully admit it was a gruesome process. It was very, very difficult. And I certainly didn't, I wasn't one of these people that sailed into a training contract. And then it actually, I think, goes to show at that time, this was as you said, 14 years ago, but your social background and how you present yourself, how you grow up, the educational background you have, I felt that it does kind of limit you in some ways in applying for those.
It was exponentially harder for someone from a non British minority background who didn't go through a standard British education, go to boarding school and whatnot, to be successful in securing those training contracts.
Catherine: Interesting. Why should boarding school matter? You know, why should all of it be the same? The people who've been to the same schools or the same upbringing, why they have to bring the same in. So it sounds like you challenged that system in a way with you being from a completely different background.
How was it gruesome? Why was it gruesome? Was it trying to prove that you were worthy of the training position or was it something else that was really difficult there to get into the firm?
Xue: To be honest, I actually found the most difficult part was getting through the paper application parts. So all of the firms sort of had these online application systems. And there are these standard questions that they would ask you, what are the challenges that you've faced, or what are some of your strengths and weaknesses, you know, the standard sort of HR questions.
But I think when you come from a slightly unconventional background, it's difficult to know sometimes how to make yourself stand out, in a way that speaks to the standard HR person that's looking through these applications. And it's getting through that round of, they would get thousands and thousands of these.
But to end up on the top of the pile and get to the interview stage, that I found actually very difficult in the beginning. And once I got to the interview stage, it was perfectly fine. And I was successful in almost all of my interviews. But it's getting through that paper application stage.
Catherine: Almost feel like you want to give it up because it's so hard.
Xue: Exactly. Yeah, absolutely. I was really disheartened actually in the beginning, through that whole process. And actually it was a friend of mine at the time who was a bit more experienced and older and he sort of helped me take a look at my applications, and he just helped me tweak the tone of some of those answers that I gave, in a way that at the time made me, like, it's almost cringe-worthy, that way of selling yourself, of really tweaking the language to, in my mind, which seemed like a completely over the top way of selling yourself, but that's exactly what you needed to do.
And it probably wouldn't have been over the top at all in retrospect. But again, it goes to show that a lot of us grow up thinking or feeling like we have to be a bit modest and we have to tone down how we sell ourselves or present ourselves to people. And especially for women, I think we quite often, a lot of women face that challenge of being just a little bit bolshy, just going for it and selling yourself in a way that may make you cringe, but is actually when a person reads it, sounds completely normal, and is exactly what they want to hear.
That experience actually really taught me a lesson of not underselling yourself. If you feel like, especially as a woman, if you feel like you're overselling yourself, don't worry about it. You're probably not. And you can probably still turn it up a notch.
Catherine: Well, that was what I was going to ask you, what that process taught you. And it sounds to me like you've just said it, don't undersell yourself. Don't dim the light on yourself. It doesn't mean that you tell lies or that you're extravagant, so much as tell the truth, but tell it in a very bold way with your voice, right?
Xue: Absolutely. Bold and confident.
Catherine: Which I can see now, why that's really lent its strength to you and the way that you did this branding webinar recently as well. It's all coming through from there.
But you started as the trainee, you got in there finally. I can imagine that was amazing to have actually gotten the firm and you've stayed with them ever since.
How was that first glimpse then, into big law lawyer life that you saw all around you, the whole new firm atmosphere? How did you feel about that? Do you remember your first thoughts?
Xue: It was really great actually. And A&O really stood out to me through my whole interview process and also throughout my whole training contract. The people I met were, from the beginning, my peers and the partners that I've met throughout that whole process, and everyone, they were personality wise, I felt, very close to me.
They were very diverse. And came from actually very sort of similarly diverse backgrounds, even during my trainee days. And amongst my peers, I think most people, I had a lot of great friends and a lot of them would have come through international school systems.
They spoke multiple languages. They've had a very varied set of experiences throughout their high school years as well, and so it wasn't the typical sort of British private school type backgrounds that used to intimidate me, and feel very exclusive when I was going through university. It felt like home. It felt like a place where people were equally international and diverse and that's really continued throughout my career.
It's reflected in the whole firm culture, the fact that people value diversity, that people value these differences in cultural backgrounds, and what that brings to a business overall, and what we can do as an organisation for our clients. So I think, in terms of culture, I've never really felt like I needed to go anywhere else.
I just felt very much at home the whole time.
Catherine: That says a lot. It really does, for the strength of the firm and its diversity. And how, when you were saying what you were saying, I was thinking she's home, she's home. And you said home, and that was really interesting that you said the word that I was thinking about where you are. I feel you really are at home.
And so you were there, you did your rotations, you ended up being there for a while. When did that opportunity for Japan come up? When you came to Japan for your secondment. When was that?
Xue: So that was about two years after I qualified. In the UK firms, during the training contract, you do four rotations. I did three of them in London, in various departments, including one in the project finance group. And then I spent my fourth seat in Hong Kong, six months rotation back in the corporate department.
And when I went back to London, I qualified with the project finance department. And so about two years after I qualified, I was getting slightly antsy, in terms of wanting to go somewhere else, not to a different firm, just to a different country.
Catherine: Different country, yeah.
Xue: And in my early mid twenties, I've always traveled a lot, moved around a lot. I love living in new countries and discovering a completely different place, a different culture, a different life experience. And that's something that I was really eager for, and really looking for at that time. And at the time I considered various options. I was actually, I think at the time we just opened our Washington DC office, and I was bugging my boss, can I go there? Can I go to Washington DC? And then I was testing the waters, about, secondment opportunities in various other places. And this opportunity for Tokyo came out of nowhere. They were looking for a secondee to join Mitsui Bussan, to fill a secondment position, and that would have been in their infrastructure projects business unit.
So it wasn't a legal department role. It was a business department role. But you would be there as the lawyer supporting them, supporting the business team from a legal perspective. And so that was really right up my alley. It meant I didn't have to miss a step because it was exactly the specialisation that I was doing anyway, but then joining and doing that job from the client's side. Plus at the time, I was lucky enough to be working with Japanese clients quite a bit anyway.
So at the time I was doing a few big transactions on nuclear power projects actually, with Japanese clients, and it sparked my interest in Japan. I have to admit, in my younger days, I don't think I ever thought in my wildest dreams that I would end up living in Japan.
I had absolutely no connection to the country. I had no real knowledge of the country, in any deep way. I heard a few things from other friends, which sounded like it was one of these weird and wonderful, fascinating places. But then, when I had a chance to work with some Japanese clients, and then this opportunity happened to come up, it just sort of felt like it was meant to be. It was time to embrace something completely new, and just go for it.
And at the time, obviously I had the luxury of being, I was still single and very flexible. So I literally, I packed my bags in about a month and a half, and packed up all my things in London and then moved to Japan. And yeah, I have been here ever since.
Catherine: You hadn't worked with them before, but they were a client of the firm. And so you took it, you got the support from the Tokyo office, I imagine, of A&O, while you were in Tokyo working with them on secondment. Is that right?
Xue: Absolutely. Yes. So it was the Tokyo office that was looking for a secondee, and whilst I didn't have the chance to work with Mitsui before my secondment started, I did have some opportunities to work with other Japanese clients. But yes, coming into Mitsui, it was a completely new organisation for me, and I didn't spend any time really in the Tokyo office before I started. So I went straight into that secondment and spent about 18 months with them, mostly working on renewable energy projects.
We did a wind project in Morocco that was very exciting. And I actually ended up traveling with Mitsui a lot. So I think in my first year in Japan, I probably spent about a third of the time traveling back and forth between Europe and Japan, and spent a huge amount of time in Morocco and in Paris, and that's actually where I really became friends with Hitomi, who you've also had on your podcast.
Catherine: Lovely. Oh, good. Yeah, that's amazing. And so what did the secondment teach you? There must be some really good things that you learnt from the secondment that you would recommend to others who might be considering a secondment. I mean, you took one in a country you'd never been to, you didn't, I think, at that time have language capability. You might now have Japanese as your fourth language.
But that kind of opportunity, why did you say yes? And would you say to others, do it, you should really do it, and this is why I think you should do it, go on secondment?
Xue: Yeah. I mean, secondments are a great thing. Especially the right one. Not all secondments are great, I'm sure. But this particular one was a real opportunity. And I really love my time at Mitsui Bussan. It's an opportunity to really understand where the clients are coming from, what they think about from a business perspective. And especially at that point in your career, sort of two, three years qualified, or even even a little bit further on, you would have done a lot of work from a purely legal perspective or just taking instructions from clients, but you don't really see the drivers for them and for their business from an internal perspective.
So when you go on secondment and you understand what it is that they are really looking for, both from a business perspective, but also from an organisational perspective, or even from people's perspectives at a personal level, what's important to them, that really puts into context the kind of instructions you might've got as a lawyer, being an external lawyer to clients like that. And what would have driven them to give you certain instructions or take certain stances in commercial negotiations.
It's a fantastic way to understand where clients are coming from, not just where a particular organisation per se, but generally I would say, to understand that things that may even seem illogical to you, or you don't quite understand where something's coming from when you're an external lawyer, you can then understand that it's driven by certain political considerations or personal considerations within an organisation that are perfectly sensible.
And that you're probably just not aware of being outside the organisation, but that insight is really, really unique.
Catherine: So true. And you hear and see that decision-making process, all of the levels that it has to go through. You get the inside story on what the client's actually thinking. And by the time they come to the lawyer for advice, external lawyer, you can see what they've done internally to get there. And I think it really does give you such a good capability to take back to the firm later when you're thinking about dealing with clients, not only that particular client, if you continue with them in advising, but all clients, especially Japanese clients, because they do have a way of doing things that may be a little different to other countries and other companies, the way they operate.
So that's really interesting. And I know when we did speak, yes, in Season One with your colleague, Hitomi, she touched upon more than that, outside of secondments, she talked about the actual culture of diversity in your firm. And you've mentioned a little bit earlier as well, for women lawyers and listeners who have heard that, or have not heard her episode, they should jump over and listen to it.
But Xue with your impending time out from the firm, taking maternity leave shortly, help me and the listeners understand a little bit more about how you managed first, your first maternity leave, and your coming second leave.
And I know that your husband's also taking paternity leave. So tell us the story. I think it's absolutely fascinating how you're managing to do that as a partner in the firm.
Xue: When I had my first child, I wasn’t a partner yet, so I was a senior associate, on not, not even clearly on partnership track at that time, but in the talent pipeline, I would say, and sort of on the path to considering partnership. And at the time, I think, taking that time out, it did give me a little bit of a headache about what that would do to my prospects and thinking about how I was going to manage that.
And to be honest, it ended up, I think, rather than being a sort of hindrance, it was in some ways helpful to me in refocusing, in taking that time out and taking pause, and thinking about what I really wanted from life, and how I was going to deal with that. And also how I was going to focus on that next step on the process to becoming a partner.
It was really no problem at all, from a work perspective, taking that time out, and I would say that I don't feel in any way that I really missed out during the time that I took. So with my first child, I took about 10 months off in the end, and I was very lucky in that at the time I was the first female lawyer in that position, to take maternity leave in the Tokyo office.
We were quite a small office. And so it just hadn't come up before. So I had a chance to actually work with the partners to help shape a maternity policy. That was really fantastic. I think we probably have one of the most generous maternity leave policies in the whole of Tokyo compared to the international firms and local firms. So I was very lucky in that way.
In addition to the ability to take leave, I was offered the opportunity to do some coaching around maternity leave, which was super, super helpful. So leading up to my maternity leave, I could talk with an executive coach who gave me some really useful tips about managing that transition into leave and then coming back to work.
And I really took on some of that advice and things like, taking that leave, or leaving work, as an opportunity to also connect with clients actually, and catch up with clients before you go on leave. I actually ended up using that as an opportunity to catch up with a lot of clients that I hadn't seen in a while.
And they were obviously, it's a very happy time and people were happy for me that I was going on leave and having my first child. And then coming back to work as well, using that as an opportunity to reconnect. If you think about day to day, the amount of people you try to keep in touch with on the client side, perhaps some people you will realise after a while that you haven't caught up with them, perhaps for a whole year, that's way longer than the duration of maternity leave that I ended up taking.
And so it was actually a very good opportunity. I was also lucky enough that one of the big deals I was doing was just finishing off as I was going into maternity leave. It's a slightly sensational story that people around the office like to tell, but I actually gave birth on the signing day of my deal that I had been working on for about two years.
Yeah. Because my baby ended up arriving a couple of weeks earlier than I had anticipated.
Catherine: Oh my goodness. Wow. I mean, even this prompt that you had at the beginning of your maternity leave and after to be a way of connecting with clients, I've never thought of it in that way before. How incredible. Really great. And that you designed this maternity leave policy yourself as part of it, because you had the experience. How awesome to have that ability to design a policy that's going to affect others.
And then you had your husband as well. Did he take leave as well during this time?
Xue: Yes, he did. So obviously quite unusual, especially in Japan. Actually when we looked into it, Japan has one of the most generous paternity leave policies in the world. You're actually legally entitled as a father to take up to one year of childcare leave, the same as the mother.
And you can take it at the same time if you wanted to with your spouse. And so it's actually way more generous than a lot of other Western countries where either, you don't get the chance to take leave at all as a father, or you have to do it on a shared parental leave basis, or it's only one of you who can stay home with the child.
So we were very lucky that my husband, he looked into it and he decided to take that time off to spend with us, especially for me, and for us as a family, because we didn't have parents around in Japan. It was a huge amount of help to have him there in the beginning.
A lot of mothers, especially when you come from a busy professional job, that change of pace in the beginning, this complete change in your personal life and the environment can be very confronting. And you obviously hear a lot of stories of postnatal depression, and people struggling with that transition from being a busy professional woman to suddenly changing diapers all day long.
So having your husband around and helping in the first few months to take care of the baby and take care of you is just incredible. It's an incredible experience. It's super, super, super helpful. And it also helped us bond in a very special way as a family, I think. And it's obviously, culturally in Japan, I understand that a lot of women do tend to go home to their hometown.
And they tend to spend the first few months with their parents, there’s obviously nothing wrong with that, but having your husband around and spending those first few months together as a family, as a unit, really solidifies that relationship as a family, and solidifies that relationship and the role that your husband plays in raising the child going forward. I thought it was a really fantastic experience and I would very much encourage all men to do that, to take that time and spend it with the family during those very precious first few months, when your life seems like it's going upside down and completely changing.
Catherine: How long did your husband take in the end for his leave?
Xue: So he ended up taking the first few months off, I think about two months after I gave birth. And then he went back to work for a few months and then took another four months off when my son was around six months old. So my husband's from Australia, and we actually decided to go back to Australia during that period, not only to spend some time with his family, but also we decided to take it as a sort of unique opportunity to have a life experience as a family. So we got to Australia, we bought a 4x4, a four wheel drive, with a rooftop tent. And we went camping around Australia for about three months.
Catherine: Oh my goodness.
Xue: With a six month old baby. So yeah again, that was a very unique time in our lives. And I think one that we'll always remember for the rest of our lives. And sadly, I don't know if we can do it anymore with number two, because of the pandemic, but certainly that kind of experience, it stays with you forever and really helped shape us as a family in terms of the things that we do together.
Catherine: You might find a different experience this next time then. I mean, now this time you are a partner taking leave. So again, you're going to be a role model for the office. How did this happen again with the process? Is it something that, because you had done it before it's, oh, here's Xue once again. Okay. No problem.
Or is it a little bit different this time because you are a partner?
Xue: It's not that different, to be honest. I mean, the maternity leave that we have for partners and associates is equally generous. So there's no issue in terms of the actual leave times. There’s no difference. I think the difference is probably more personal, in that your role as a partner is a bit different, and it's not necessarily the expectations that the firm places on you, but being a partner, you have your own business, you have your own clients that you're trying to maintain and businesses that you were trying to develop.
And obviously you have ownership of that in a way that's a lot more independent than when you were an associate.
So personally, I obviously, I think, at this stage in my career, worry more than I did perhaps as an associate, about continuing my business, how to keep building on a relatively new business at a very difficult time anyway. I mean, I became a partner in 2020, right in the middle of the pandemic, right at the start.
Really, it was not the easiest start to say the least, to my partner career.
Catherine: Not at all.
Xue: And to build a business in that environment. When I became a partner I was very much still focused on, I did a lot of deals in oil and gas, huge project financings in that space, a lot of energy projects, a lot of big traditional energy infrastructure projects. And then I did a lot of business with China and with Chinese clients building on the outbound China trade flow and investments, for example, under the belt and road initiative, that was really a huge trend in the last few years.
And obviously when I became a partner, both of those took a bit of an abrupt halt. Oil and gas projects fell off a cliff, oil prices fell off a cliff, and outward investment from China dramatically decreased as well because of the pandemic. So I was really having to refocus and pick up on different areas of business, and that whole building my knowledge and remarketing myself, to do more renewable energy projects, to focus on energy transition rather than just oil and gas or conventional power projects, all of that took time.
And so having now, built quite a bit of credentials and experience, and momentum in the last couple of years to be taking leave at this time. It does seem from a personal perspective and a professional perspective, like it's going to be a bigger challenge. But having had that experience from my first maternity leave as well. I'm actually not that worried about it. In the grand scheme of things, taking six months, 10 months out of your career, it's not going to make a huge difference. It's not going to make or break your career. So I think for anyone thinking about taking leave and worrying about it, I would always say don't worry about it so much. Actually, for all of the people that I know, including myself that have taken that amount of time off, it's only been positive.
And you don't really miss a step at the end of the day, six months and 10 months go by in an absolute flash. and you probably end up picking up exactly where you left off.
Catherine: Wow. And are you doing the same approach, talking with your clients at the beginning again, getting them all safe and secure and settled before you take your leave?
Xue: Yeah. So I'm trying to. It's a bit more difficult this time round because obviously we can't meet up physically. It's great that at least in recent months, things have relaxed a little bit in Japan, so I could see some clients face-to-face and do that catch up with them.
But yes, I'm very much taking this as an opportunity as well to catch up with a few clients and to touch base and let them know that I’ll be gone for a few months..
Catherine: Yeah. And is there anything else you want to say about these diversity aspects at your firm? Something that we've missed or haven't highlighted at all yet?
Xue: I think, when it comes to diversity and inclusion at my firm, it's really, I would say the topic that is always top of the agenda. When you look at management level minutes and discussions, it's always one of the key topics that we focus on. And it's not just about parental leave. It's not just about gender diversity.
There's a huge focus on ethnic diversity, on diversity in sexual orientation, in cultural background, social background, social mobility, and one theme that is very interesting that we've been talking about a lot at a management level is also, it's not just about diversity and inclusion, but also how you treat people from a diverse background in an equitable way.
So they've actually changed some of the communication, now we refer to diversity, equity and inclusion. So there's a big focus on, how do we make our culture, not just more inclusive, but really then ensure that we're treating everybody in an equitable way and reflecting that in management, statistics about gender pay gap, addressing that in a very conscious way, in our remuneration and bonus discussions, to make sure that there's no unconscious bias that is still somehow ingrained in influencing and maintaining that gender, or otherwise, differences in pay gap between different groups in the firm.
Catherine: How do you actually do that? Do you have a, you don't have a checklist, are we being equal in this particular interview, how do you actually do that? Do you keep each other accountable? Or are there spot checks along the way? I'm interested in how that practically works.
Xue: I think there are a few different aspects. There are firm-wide programs, which I think Hitomi also talked about last time on your podcast. In terms of managing our talent pipeline, so consciously focusing on encouraging diversity in our training programs as associates progress through their career. So for example we have, at almost all stages in associate training programs, there will be an add-on for female associates that address some of the issues and particular challenges that female associates face throughout their career.
And then I think recently there has also been an introduction of more targeted programs for people from more diverse ethnic backgrounds. So again, focusing on some of the challenges that they might face not coming from the ethnic majority, in the firm.
Catherine: Yes.
Xue: And I think that's very, very important because you're not always conscious of the biases that might exist. You're not always conscious of the challenges that you might face. And speaking from my own experience, when I was back in London and you're in a mostly sort of Anglo-Saxon, or at least Western community, and you're still the relative minority from an ethnic perspective, there are these small things that can make you feel like you're not a hundred percent included, or may make you feel like that there are additional barriers or hindrances ahead.
And it's not necessarily from within the organisation, it can also be from outside the organisation. It'll be small things like people being unable to pronounce your name.
And I constantly felt like, as a junior, at least with clients, it's hard to be memorable when people can't easily remember your name. And people find it awkward to approach you, or they find it difficult to interact with you, because they feel awkward about saying your name.
And it's small things like that, that can actually make a huge difference when they happen on a daily basis. But then, when I came to Japan, for example, the thing that actually made a huge difference is your name is always in Katakana, it's phonetic. So everyone knows how to pronounce your name. It was fantastic.
Catherine: Yeah. Yeah. that is true. And I think that you really hit on a spot there. When I remember being in England and London and you know, one of the associates, I had said the word interesting. And he said, it's interesting. It's not interesting, it's interesting. And actually where he said that was in front of one of the large group of clients.
And of course, when you're in that situation, what do you do? Such as a name mispronunciation, you kind of have to laugh it off or make light of it, whereas it was so embarrassing, and I’m sure in the case of you with your name, it was mortifying when people can't even bother to be careful about those things.
So sometimes, you've just hit on it, it's not the big things. It's these little things of everyday life that can make you feel included or not. And so I really love that the firm is doing bits and pieces around this to make it very obvious to everybody with this DEI, that you are now focusing on. That is really amazing.
Xue: More widely, at a management level as well, we do have targets about D E & I and those targets do need to be ambitious. There's always a lot of talk and a lot of questions about whether quotas are appropriate and yes, you don't want to feel like you're part of a diversity statistic, of course, but actually quotas are incredibly important. You know, when you're facing an issue like this, that's been around for absolutely centuries, there's so much inertia built into our wider culture and in every organisation, sometimes you just need quotas.
You need those targets or numbers to help incentivise management and people at every level to achieve those targets through whatever means. And all of the things that we're doing around the talent pipeline, around training, around unconscious bias training, they help us achieve those targets. But it's absolutely crucial, I think, to have those targets in the first place.
At a firm level, we have become a lot more ambitious about our targets. A few years ago we were talking a lot about 30% of people going into the partnership process being diverse, and achieving certain targets in terms of diversity across our partnership group. That's been seriously stepped up.
I already said that actually interestingly, a couple of years ago during my partner interviews, you know, why are we focusing on the 30% women, women alone, we don't make up 30% of the lawyer population going in.
So, I was really pleased to see that management has seriously stepped up those ambitions. So we are aiming for 50% and people are very, very serious about this target. And at a regional and global level, and office level, partners and management are being held accountable for the targets.
Catherine: So good to hear. And I think you're trailblazing and I hope that other firms and other people can hear this. And I think there might be a bit of a lineup to get into your firm with this amazing policy that you have. Wow. Okay. So I think if we were at the bar or at the restaurant that you mentioned, we probably would have had a few glasses of Prosecco by now. And so I'm trying to go a little bit deeper.
When you think about yourself Xue, your traits that you were most proud of, I'm wondering what they might be.
Xue: I think the traits I'm most proud of is being resilient, having grit to get through whatever I need to get through, and it’s things at a work level at a personal level, I ran a couple of marathons a few years ago and, actually I have to say growing up, I was not the most sporty person, so that was a huge step for me, signing up to those marathons and running them.
And it was such a life experience that stayed with me. That mental attitude of just thinking, putting one foot in front of the other, and just getting through it one step at a time, and then achieving that goal at the end was something incredibly satisfying. And actually, you know, with a lot of things in life, one can take that attitude, just take it one step at a time. Don't get too hung up on the end goal and take it one step at a time, and just do the best that you can. That philosophy I think has served me very well in life.
The other thing is just being adventurous, being open-minded. You know, I was never that person, that when I entered A&O that said, oh, I want to be partner in 10 years time. There were people like that and I have a lot of respect for them. That was never me. I took it, I love my job. I love the challenges. I love the intellectual rigor and all the deals that I was doing.
It was never sort of, I have to become a partner. I was, it's my be all and end all, my raison d'être, if you like, but taking those opportunities when they arose, you know, coming to Japan, when it was completely a left field decision.
Catherine: That's adventurous.
Xue: Exactly.
So just taking the leap and doing something that you might not have expected. And then, about five years back when we started marketing more intensely to Chinese clients on some of these big energy infrastructure projects, taking the leap to be the front person, if you like, to take charge of that, and do a lot of the marketing, flying back and forth to China. Again, it's not something that I necessarily envisaged doing when I was earlier on in my career.
But it was an opportunity that came up and I just sort of grabbed by the horns and ran with it. That's one of the pillars that helped me become a partner and build my business case. And, you know, at the time it was certainly not easy. I wouldn't have said that at that point my Chinese was even at a level that was comfortably business level. I had never worked in China, I've only spoken Chinese at home really.
I remember I was lined up to go with some of the partners to China to do a whole series of marketing trips to various clients talking about floating LNG projects, and how to finance them. And I was sitting there scratching my head thinking, okay, I don’t think I know how to say LNG or a floating LNG or any of those technical words in Chinese.
What do I do? I don't know anything about this speciality per se. And I spent about a whole weekend just looking up technical terms in Chinese and preparing for these presentations.
Catherine: My goodness. Very resourceful.
Xue: And you know, it was fine. It was absolutely fine. We got through it.
We did, we won the deals. We did the deals and now I can, I'm very comfortable speaking about all of those topics in Chinese. It took that leap to actually push yourself a bit and really push yourself out of the comfort zone. You know, I was probably sweating through all of those presentations.
That's what really, I think, pushing yourself out of your comfort zone really is another principle that has served me well throughout my career.
Catherine: Wow. And if you had the opportunity to call up your past self, or is there anything that you would give back to yourself as wisdom? Maybe it's, don't worry about it, it will be fine. But is there anything there that you have thought about that would give wisdom back to yourself when you were younger, starting out?
Xue: I think some of the things that we talked about earlier, the sort of perceived glass ceilings, if you like, that we sometimes set for ourselves. Not being bold enough in marketing myself in some instances. Thinking that there were certain glass ceilings for me that may or may not have existed.
So it's a fine balance, isn't it? On one hand it is about smashing that glass ceiling, those ones that do exist, and realising that there are certain barriers that you need through. Break through. But I also think, you know, coming from a non-conventional social background, and being a woman that we sometimes make glass ceilings for ourselves.
Like we think that things are not achievable, or we think that you're being discriminated against, or you know, I can't be aiming for this high job because why would anyone consider me anyway? For anyone early on in their career, and I'm thinking back, there were maybe instances when I thought like that as well.
The advice I would give myself is don't set those glass ceilings for yourself before you've really thought about whether they actually exist or not. You absolutely have to stand up and smash through those that do exist, but it's also important to sometimes just barge ahead. There's actually a lot of support and momentum out there in the legal community in firms.
This is a great time to grab those kinds of opportunities.
Catherine: Wow. That's wonderful. And that sort of leads me really to the 2022 question I wanted to ask you, Xue, which is what you're thinking about. This is going to be a massive year for you and what two or three tips you would have to inspire lawyers as they plan their career and their personal development activities in this coming 2022.
Xue: I think for me it's going to, it's certainly going to be an interesting year, with a new baby, and taking the time out. It's not a bad time, to be honest, for me to be taking this time out, given where we are with the pandemic. If I was still at work during this year, I think that the tips that I would give people is, I think this pandemic is here to stay.
It's not going to magically disappear as we've seen with the new variants that are going around, despite our best efforts to vaccinate. And we have to find a way to sustainably live with the current situation and with the pandemic, be it in your work-life balance or in the way that you spend time between the office and out of the office.
Whether we go back to traveling ever like we used to, I think those are new, we have to start thinking about a way where we can sustainably live with this situation for a long time to come.
The second thing I think is just also embracing it as an opportunity for something new, and for change.
You know, there are a lot of great things happening in the world or with the energy transition with having just gone through COP 26, the focus and the knowledge that people now have of the energy transition and climate change, I think brings a huge amount of opportunity for all of us.
It's something that is going to define our careers, I think for the next 20 to 30 years. And this is really the time to step up and, really up-skill in this area. I think about how we can make that transition happen.
And the third thing I think is, for me personally as I mentioned, I felt that maternity leave was a great time to pause and think about my career and the things I could have done better. The things that I can improve in my day to day work, certainly with my first child, I wrote a few interesting books during my maternity leave. And I thought about the things that will really help me propel my career. and I hope this time as well, I could use this as an opportunity to really pause and think what's the area of focus for me when I come back from leave. And I would very much encourage anyone to also take the time to do that.
It's just very hard to get, well, it's very easy to get wrapped up in your day to day work and just churn through the deals, to meet billable targets and whatnot. It's difficult to sometimes consciously take the decision to pause and think about your career and about what you can do to really take the step up, and to make the changes that you need to in order to propel your career forward.
So it's a great opportunity when you have that chance to take parental leave. But I would also encourage anyone else to do that, to take some time off. If only on a weekend or even a day, and to really sit down and take that time to think about the things that really make a difference.
Catherine: I think you're so right to pause and take time out and not be just caught up in the hurly burly and keep going on every single thing that we're doing. Great advice. Well Xue, we are coming to the final super six quick fire round of six questions. I love to ask every guest to wind up the interview. And so the first one is if I gave you a million yen in cash, where would you spend it?
Your favorite store, destination, or maybe it's a social cause.
Xue: That's a good question. A million in cash. I probably, maybe I'll do what we did last time during parental leave, buy a camper van and this time travel Japan.
Catherine: Oh, yes. Travel Japan. That's something you can actually do, right? You can do that, even if you don't have your million yen this time, but you can travel Japan with your second child perhaps. That's an interesting adventure that might be waiting. And so Xue, how about a podcast or book that you are listening to, or have read, that you would love to recommend?
Xue: I have to admit, I am terrible at reading books ever since I started my legal career. There's just too many things to read. My reading has pretty much fallen off a cliff. But I've recently read How to Avoid a Climate Change Disaster by Bill Gates. And I would very much recommend that to anyone.
It's quite sort of, if you like entry-level to climate change and the challenges that we currently face, but he actually breaks it down in a very, very accessible and easy to comprehend way. And I thought I knew a lot about energy transition and about climate change and whatnot, but I actually learned a fair bit from his book.
It's really where we find ourselves now and the social challenge that we face in achieving those Paris agreement goals. It's really incumbent on each and one of us to educate ourselves and really understand the ins and outs of climate change, the effects of different greenhouse gasses, and the most effective ways to achieve decarbonisation, and that's just a fantastic entry level book to all of those topics.
Catherine: Wow. Great. I have seen that book, but hadn't thought about getting it. So I'm going to do that. Thank you so much. And Xue what about your bedside cabinet at home there? What is on it and what inspires you?
Xue: My bedside cabinet. I'm trying to get through a scifi book in Chinese, called the three body problem. Mainly inspired by my husband who is into sci fi. But it's not the easiest read, but it's a good practice. Good practice for my language skills.
Catherine: Good practice. Wow. Amazing. For someone who's not doing books so much, you've got two that are on the go there. That's interesting. Okay. And how about then a last question for you? Something about you that a lot of people do not know?
Xue: That's actually a difficult one because I'm a chronic over-sharer. So people probably know everything about me, I think. But out of the people that perhaps don't know me so well, I think it always surprises them that I actually hold a German passport.
And yeah, it's just, it's not something obvious. I've had to actually, in meetings where the opposite sides were chattering away in German, I've had to politely sort of alert them that I can understand them.
Catherine: Well done you. Well, that's great. You are unusual in that way. And I think it's fantastic because it's been obviously very formative for you to have had those early days in Germany and have your upbringing there. It was just really amazing to hear that. And so well Xue, we have actually come to the end and I have really loved hearing about your career, leveraging that firm's culture to be on your journey, to have your second child as a partner, and it's just fantastic. Thank you so much for sharing your story and insights and lots of nuggets of advice. It was really fabulous to connect with you in that way today. Thank you so much.
Xue: Thank you, Catherine. It was a pleasure to be on your podcast.
Catherine: Lovely. And so how do people keep in touch with you? Can they connect on LinkedIn or what's a good way to be in touch?
Xue: Absolutely. I'm not the most social media savvy person out there. Not a big user of Instagram, like the younger generations, but you can find me on LinkedIn. I will respond to messages there. Always happy to connect, always happy to give advice if I can, if I can help at all. And we do post a lot of articles and whatnot regularly through my LinkedIn. Otherwise, you know, through the firm website and email address, I can be reachable, always, always happy to connect with people.
Catherine: Well, thank you. That's great. We'll put all of that in the show notes and you'll have to be pretty good on LinkedIn because we put a lot out there on social media after your podcast. So people will be connecting with you and commenting on posts. So do be there at least for the two weeks or so after the podcast has come out, if you're not too busy doing something else. Such as being a mum.
Well, I will finish up there. We've had a fantastic conversation. Thank you so much. And I'm very grateful for you for being my 10th guest rounding out this Season 2 of Lawyer on Air. Season 3 is coming soon, so keep your ears out.
And for everybody else who's been listening, please do like this episode and subscribe to Lawyer on Air and do drop us a short review. That really helps us be seen and be heard by more and more people. And you can actually pop onto my website and leave a voice message. There's some great technology there that allows you to do that. And it's lovely hearing your actual voice telling us about the guest and what you enjoyed about today.
And so everyone do go ahead, share the episode. somebody must love it, and would love to listen to it, to be inspired to live a wonderful lawyer extraordinaire life. That's all for now. See you on the next episode and the next season. Cheers, kampai, and bye for now.
Subscribe using your favourite podcast player.
Apple Podcasts| Spotify| Breaker| Google Podcasts| RadioPublic
We would love to hear from you!
You can record your feedback by clicking on the button below.
By recording a message you are acknowledging and agree that we may share your message with our subscribers and community on social media or other media. Thank you!
Lawyer on Air was the winner of the Bronze Award in the “Best Podcast by a Kiwi Abroad Category” in the New Zealand Podcast Awards 2021.
Lawyer on Air has been nominated for “Best Business Podcast” in the Quill Podcast Awards, 2021! Thank you to all our supporters who voted for the podcast!