Returning to Big Law after In-house with Mariko Mimura
Full transcript follows.
Welcome to the first episode of Season 3! You will love the Lawyer Extraordinaire for Episode One: Mariko Mimura. Mariko is a great example that stepping upwards and outwards is entirely possible at any stage of your career. She is also living proof that you can go from working in-house and return to a law firm role as an attractive value add to a firm having excelled on the inside of business at the coal face. She is an inspiration for how we can continue to reinvent ourselves on our own terms.
If you enjoyed this episode and it inspired you in some way, we’d love to hear about it and know your biggest takeaway. Head over to Apple Podcasts to leave a review and we’d love it if you would leave us a message here!
In this episode you’ll hear:
How a chance meeting at a study group led Mariko to go into law
Mariko’s secondments to the US and creating her own way by avoiding more legal studies and going straight into practice
Mariko’s reasoning behind her choices to be an outside director and an outside statutory auditor in a variety of industries
How Mariko transitioned back from in-house to Big Law at the age of 60
Her favourite books and other fun facts
About Mariko
Mariko graduated with an LLB from Waseda University in 1980, graduated with an M.A. from the Chuo University Graduate School of Law and graduated the Ph.D. course in 1989.
Mariko was admitted to the Bar in Japan in 1992 and joined the firm of Braun, Moriya, Hoashi & Kubota from 1992-1993, followed by Takaishi Law Office from 1993-1995.
In 1995 Mariko joined Nishimura and Partners, now renamed Nishimura & Asahi
During the first phase – from 1995 to 2004, Mariko gained overseas experience in law practice in the United States on secondment to the law firm of Gibson, Dunn & Crutcher LLP (1999-2000) and was secondment in-house to a startup battery company as Vice President and GeneralCounsel of Quallion LLC from 2000-2001.
Upon returning to Japan Mariko took up a senior role in-house as ExecutiveOfficer and Legal Executive Manager of GE Healthcare Japan Corporation (2005-2009)
Mariko has held the outside role of Part-time Statutory Auditor of GE Healthcare affiliate company Nihon Medi-Physics Co., Ltd in 2008. From 2018 she became Outside Director, of childrens’ toy-maker Takara TOMY Company, Ltd and is also an Outside Director at precious metal company, Tanaka Holdings (Tanaka Kinzoku)
She has further in-house experience as Director of Legal and Intellectual Property Executive Manager of Novartis Holding Japan K.K. from 2010-2015, was concurrently Corporate Officer and General Counsel at Novartis (2010-2015), and then became Director of Glaxo Smith Kline KK from 2015-2018.
In her 60’s Mariko returned to Nishimura & Asahi as Of Counsel where she focuses on the area of life science.
Connect with Mariko
Please contact Catherine
Links
Shangri-La Hotel, Tokyo Station: http://www.shangri-la.com/tokyo/shangrila/about/
人新生の「資本論」斉藤幸平
Connect with Catherine
Linked In https://www.linkedin.com/in/oconnellcatherine/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lawyeronair
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/catherine.oconnell.148
Twitter: https://twitter.com/oconnelllawyer
Transcript
Catherine: Hi everyone. I'm excited to welcome you to the first episode in Season Three of Lawyer on Air. I'm the host of the show, Catherine O'Connell. Today I am joined by Mariko Mimura, who is Of Counsel at Nishimura & Asahi, the biggest of the big Japanese law firms in Japan. Nishimura & Asahi is a full service firm with over 700 Japanese and foreign lawyers, employing more than 850 support staff, including tax accountants, patent attorneys, senior Japanese, and foreign business support professionals, as well as paralegals.
Mariko has a niche law practice in serving clients and developing relationships exclusively in the life sciences space. Mariko's studied for her LLB at Waseda university in 1980, she then went to Chuo University Graduate School of Law obtaining her MA in 1984. And then she graduated from their PhD course in 1989.
Mariko was admitted to the bar in Japan in 1992 and joined the firm of Braun, Moriya, Hoashi & Kubota from 1992 to 93, followed by the firm Takaishi Law Office from 1993 to 95. My law path starts around this point with Mariko here in 1995. As that was the year I was admitted to the bar in New Zealand. So in 1995, Mariko joined what is now Nishimura & Asahi but at the time it was called Nishimura & Partners. Mariko has actually had two phases working under the umbrella of Nishimura & Asahi. During the first phase from 95 to 2004 Mariko gained overseas experience in a law practice in the United States, on secondment from Nishimura & Partners for one year to the law firm of Gibson, Dunn & Crutcher LLP in 1999. She then had a further, very good opportunity to have a secondment in-house to a start up battery company as vice president and general counsel of Quallion LLC. And that was from 2000 to 2001.
Upon returning to Japan following this time in the US, Mariko was offered a senior role in-house as Executive Officer and Legal Executive Manager of GE Healthcare Japan Corporation from 2005 and 2009. And she seized that opportunity. It's no wonder to me that Mariko excelled in-house and in this life sciences area, as she told me before our recording today that she got to really like life sciences, and she also really liked working in-house.
So it was that Mariko retired from her first phase at Nishimura & Asahi to continue and deepen her in-house adventure. So that position at GE Healthcare opened doors for outside board roles for Mariko as well. For her first opportunity, she was a part-time statutory auditor of GE healthcare affiliate company, Nihon Medi-Physics Co., Ltd in 2008, and later on from 2018 as outside director of children's toy maker, Takara TOMY Company Limited, where Mariko is currently still an outside director.
And Mariko had a further outside director role at precious metal company, Tanaka Holdings also called Tanaka Kinzoku. Mariko to me is proof that stepping up and outwards is entirely possible at any stage of your career.
She is also a great example that you can be working in-house and then return to a law firm role as an attractive value add to a firm, having excelled in the inside of business, right at the coalface as we say. Mariko also tucked in further in-house experience as Director of Legal and Intellectual Property Executive Manager at Novartis Holding Japan K.K. from 2010 to 2015.
And at that time she was concurrently Corporate Officer and General Counsel at Novartis. And then she jumped from there to being a director of Glaxo Smith Kline KK from 2015 to 18. Well in her sixties, Mariko was at a turning point and it was then through her endeavors and tenacity that, defying the odds and those disbelievers, she came around full circle to nestle back in the saddle as Of Counsel at Nishimura & Asahi for her second phase of working with them. This transition back into big law is a remarkable and inspiring story. And we will go into that today. Well, as you can tell from that huge introduction Mariko is yet another wonderful lawyer extraordinaire, and I'm very pleased to bring you Mariko as my guest today and share her story with you.
Mariko welcome to the show.
Mariko: Hello, Catherine. Thank you very much for the nice introduction. And I'm very honored to be here with you.
Catherine: Thank you so much. Well, today we are going to be talking about your career path, Mariko. How you navigated that career in Japan and the US, your current of counsel role and balancing that with your various outside board positions. And I'd really love you to talk about your passion for life sciences and bringing up that next generation of associates.
How does all that sound?
Mariko: It's great.
Catherine: Good. Well, today we're talking online. In fact, I'm at the very end stages of my remote working experience in New Zealand. And I'll be back in Japan when this episode hits the airwaves. But if you and I were meeting up in person Mariko, where would we be? Do you have a favorite wine bar or cafe or restaurant?
And I'd love you to tell me what would be your choice of beverage off the menu.
Mariko: Okay. So I will take you to a nice bar on the top of the tall building, maybe some hotel, and have a nice night view in front of us. And I will order a nice sake for you.
Catherine: Oh sake, so Japanese rice wine?
Mariko: Yes.
Catherine: Oh, would that be hot or cold?
Mariko: Cold one.
Catherine: Fantastic. I actually, as you're talking about the night view, I start to feel like I'm missing Japan. I love New Zealand, but I'm missing that beautiful night view that we get in Tokyo, especially in these winter days. Wow. That sounds lovely.
So I wonder which hotel you're thinking of.
Mariko: Maybe the Shangri-La Hotel in Tokyo Station
Catherine: That sounds great.
Mariko: It has a really nice view..
Catherine: And they also have nice kinds of snacks, hors d'oeuvres as well. Don't they?
Mariko: Yes.
Catherine: Lovely. Wow. That sounds so much fun. I can't wait to do that when I get back to Japan and we can get together. Thank you so much.
Mariko: Yes.
Catherine: Well Mariko, I’ve actually seen you in the past on webinars and speaking at conferences, you may not know this, but you've been shining as a presenter in your life sciences and other areas, but we officially only met at the start of 2022 when, I think it was William Blake, a really nice executive recruiter in Tokyo introduced us.
Mariko: Yes.
Catherine: And I love how you were at a firm, and then you went back in, to in-house counsel, then you came back to the firm. And so that was kind of similar to my track record before I opened up my law firm. And so I'm really indebted to you for saying yes, to come on the show because I wanted to talk to you about that pathway.
And I'm so glad Will introduced us. How did you come to know Will? Did you both meet in person before?
Mariko: Yes, I think he contacted me to do some outside counsel opportunity and I think he suddenly called me or gave me an email, and I responded that I'm very much willing to meet. And we met somewhere in person.
Catherine: Lovely, well maybe we can get together again too when I'm back. And when this pandemic allows us to, so we can maybe have sake together as well. That would be great. Well Mariko, before we dive back into your career, let's go back to your very early days because I think you grew up in Japan, for the whole time.
But do you remember back in those early days, what you wanted to be when you were a child?
Mariko: Well, it's a good question. I actually, when I was six years old, I went to London and I lived there for two and a half years due to my father's work. And maybe that experience was a very special experience to me. And I was honestly so nervous at first and I didn't have friends for a couple of months, but after that I made very good friends there and my life kind of changed. And at that time I wanted to become, how'd you say, an air hostess?
Catherine: Yes, air hostess.
I don't know that we call them that now, but we did call them that then, because I wanted to do that as well as being a teacher.
Mariko: Really?
Catherine: Cabin crew, I think we call them now, but yes, it was air hostess. That was the glamorous job that we wanted to do.
So that's from six to eight years of age, or six to eight and a half, you're in London. Oh my goodness. Because I always detect a little bit of an English accent when you speak English. So I wonder if that came from those days you were in London, maybe.
Mariko: Yes, I think so. At that time I was very small. So my English was only children's English, but I think the pronunciation is a little bit more English than American.
Catherine: I think so. I think when you learn English at such a young age like that, even when you went to America later on, I think your English that you formed when you were younger has probably stayed with you more than it has in the States. And maybe even when you were in the States, they may have said to you, you sound like you came from England.
Did they say that to you?
Mariko: Sometimes yes, sometimes.
Catherine: See, I thought so. Well, that's amazing. So you wanted to do the same kind of job that I did when I was a child, teacher or air hostess.
Mariko: And we are doing very similar thing right now.
Catherine: Here we are. There we go. That's very, very interesting. And that's why I love this idea of speaking with you today. And I know you went straight to Waseda though. So you came back to Japan and then continued your education here and then went to Waseda to do law. So how did law come up as a decision for you?
Did you have someone influence you from those London days or when you came back that triggered your interest in the law?
Mariko: So in my days, most of the women went to the literature in university and I was planning to do that. But when I was studying, I went to some place to get together with my friends for two or three days and study together. And some of the group was there also, in the group was the people who were studying for the bar examination.
And they were studying and they were telling me, what is a bar examination? What is a lawyer? And I was so interested. So before the university examination, like two or three months before, I suddenly decided to challenge the law faculty.
I was successfully in the law faculty. And I asked my parents that instead of literature, I want to learn law. And I decided to go this way,
Catherine: Wow, that's amazing. Isn't it? How a chance meeting, if you hadn't been in that group, maybe you wouldn't have heard that conversation. And this comes up a lot with our guests as they are there at the right time to hear that inspirational information.
And so what did your parents say when you told them?
Mariko: Well, they didn't deny it because they knew that I am a very strong person, and I never obey them. So they knew that whatever they say they don't succeed.
Catherine: Well done you. Wow. I love that. Okay. So did you like studying the law? Were you glad that you did change from literature to law? Did you like it?
Mariko: Yes, actually studying the law, maybe not so interesting, but becoming a lawyer, I think it was the best way I could choose. So I think it was good that I went to the law faculty and studied for a career as a lawyer.
Catherine: Right. When you left there, you went to Chuo University at the graduate school and also did their PhD course. Was that also in the law? That course?
Mariko: Yes. And actually, as I said, I did not like studying law so much.
Catherine: Yes.
Mariko: It's not a science and it's a kind of, reading the books and the judgments. And I didn't think it was so imaginative. And so I wanted to study philosophy. So I was in the law faculty when I was in graduate school, but I studied law philosophy.
Catherine: Oh, I see.
Mariko: I studied Kant or Hegel.
Catherine: How interesting, because you're right, it's not a science. It's more of an art, there's no black and white. It's all gray. Isn't it? So doing the PhD course then led you to have something that was more, that you could grab onto, that was more concrete, is that what you're saying?
Mariko: Yes.
Catherine: Oh, I see.
Mariko: Also I thought that I am a person who likes to be myself and I don't communicate with many people and I love to read books all day. But my friends said that, no, no, no, you are not that person. You are the person who goes out and meets with people, speaks with people, and does troubleshooting. And so they believed that I was better in the legal practice rather than just become a professor in the university.
Catherine: I see. It's so amazing what you say, that our friends often see things about us more than we see ourselves, because they are our friends and they are interacting with us. And they know that for you, in your case, you are outgoing, you do go and meet people, and you are good at troubleshooting. So I hope we can talk with, or somehow tag your friends later on, on social media so they can hear you speak so well of them because that's really important.
Again, this is another change for you that you had friends who kind of changed your direction, set your sails going in the direction of being a lawyer, rather than professor. I love that.
Mariko: Exactly. Yes.
Catherine: Well, so you did study and then finish. And you graduated. And I think your first law firm was in 1992.
So you had kind of successive roles there. So what were those first two roles like for you? Did you get a good glimpse of what it was like for the daily life of a lawyer?
Mariko: The first law firm is a very good law firm. And I was willing to work there for a long time, but that was the end of the bubble, and the Japanese economy went very bad. And also the top two lawyers passed away just when I joined. So the law firm went so bad. And they could not have a lot of young lawyers, so I decided to go outside and have another trip.
Catherine: Right. I see. And so that was when you joined the second firm after that?
Mariko: Yes.
Catherine: What did you like about then being in that second law firm role that you had? What was different? What was it that you really liked there?
Mariko: Well, actually that law firm was a start-up law firm and my boss was former IBM in-house counsel. And he was one of, or that in-house counsel in Japan, he was the first in-house counsel in a big company. And he was very famous for that. So I think I was interested in in-house counsel, even when I was a very young lawyer.
So I think I wanted to learn from him about how you go with a business. That's what I learned from him.
Catherine: That's amazing. And so you joined the firm, but you are still thinking about possible in-house counsel roles, because you would have had a great opportunity to speak with him a lot about his former in-house counsel role that he had.
Mariko: Yes.
Catherine: Yeah, I see. And so you spent a few years with him and in that firm and then this big jump happens to Nishimura & Asahi, or Nishimura & Partners.
What happened then that you moved from the small firms to the big firm? Did they come and get you, or did a recruiter headhunt you? Tell us about that jump. I'm very interested to hear how that happened.
Mariko: So when I was in Takaishi Law Firm working with him, I was working with one of the lawyers who is a Nishimura & Asahi partner. And I talked with him about my career and of course the small law firm is interesting, but the work itself is not so, you know, big ones and exciting ones.
And she encouraged me whether I am interested in working with Nishimura & Asahi because there is a lot of big work, big opportunity to have a lot of experience than a sole practitioner. And I thought, I don't think I’ll become a Nishimura & Asahi partner, but I thought it would be very good experience for me if I work with a lot of people and a lot of big companies.
And so I decided to move to a big law firm and study and work there to have more experiences.
Catherine: And so what's something that surprised you about the difference then between those smaller law firms you were with and that big law firm, were there some big surprises for you?
Mariko: Yeah. Actually there was a lot of work. And always busy, no time to sleep.
Catherine: Unfortunately, yes.
Mariko: But it was a good experience for me. And I thought I would only work for two or three years, but actually I worked there for 10 years until I moved to in-house.
Catherine: You were there for 10 years, right? 1994 or five through to 2004. And I think during that time also, you got that opportunity to travel to the US and work there on two secondments. So did the partner that you're talking about or another partner offer that opportunity for you to go and be an in-house counsel and work in the secondment to the other American law firm?
How did that come about?
Mariko: Yes. At that time all young lawyers went to the United States. And people, after working four or five years in Nishimura & Asahi, many lawyers go to the LLM in the United States and then work for one year in a law firm.
Catherine: Right.
Mariko: But I was already an old enough person. And I thought instead of going to university and studying again, because I studied a lot when I was at Chuo University. So I thought I want to go to the law firm directly. So I asked my partner whether some law firm will take me and I got an offer from Gibson, Dunn & Crutcher.
Catherine: Right. So you asked for it.
Mariko: Yes.
Catherine: Okay. And was that quite unusual then to have asked for it when most people did that path of going to school first?
Mariko: Yes, at that time in big law firms, most of the people went to study LLM and then become a New York bar and then go to law firm and study for one year. So I think I was very special because I didn't go to the university because maybe I didn’t like studying.
Catherine: Right. But was that not inspirational for other people who followed you in the firm after that? Perhaps you carved out an idea or pathway for others after you to also, if they were a little older and had studied, to go directly to a law firm. Do you know if that happened after you?
Mariko: Yes. I don't know whether I had any influence on that, but many people now have various opportunities. So not only go to LLM and then a law firm, some people go to a government office and work there for one or two years, and come back to Nishimura & Partners. So they don't always go to foreign countries, but maybe they work in Japan to have some experience.
Some people go in-house and come back. So it was not only one way to go, but now people have various ways to choose.
Catherine: So what was different then about working in a Japanese law firm and then that US law firm? It must've been a bit different to working in Japan. Can you remember the things that you thought, oh, that's different, or, oh, that's different to Japan? Can you remember back then to those things?
Mariko: I think the way of working in the law firm is very similar, but because I was a kind of guest, I was not a United States admitted lawyer, my work is very limited. And so, I had a lot of time to play golf or to go somewhere to relax. So my life there was a very relaxed one and I enjoyed it a lot.
Catherine: I'm sure you were forming relationships as well on the golf course, and with the other things you were doing, I'm very sure. And then after that law firm secondment, there was the other in-house secondment, wasn't there, to Quallion?
Mariko: Yes, that was one of the greatest experiences in my life. A partner of Gibson, Dunn & Crutcher was outside counsel for Alfred Mann, who is an angel, a very rich angel. And this Alfred Mann established a battery company, a rechargeable battery, which can be put into the implantable medical device.
And at that time for the rechargeable lithium ion battery, Japan was the most advanced country. So this Alfred Mann asked one Japanese engineer to become CEO of this Quallion. But the Japanese engineers didn't know about the law, how to establish a company, how to manage a company, and it was very difficult for them to communicate in English.
So this partner called me one day and said, hi, Mariko, I'm a partner of Gibson, Dunn & Crutcher. And I heard that you are very fluent in Japanese. And I said, oh yes, I am very fluent in Japanese.
Catherine: Yes I am. Yeah.
Mariko: He said, oh good then can you communicate with this person? And first I started to give advice to this company, as a Gibson, Dunn & Crutcher lawyer.
And then they asked me whether I can help them as an in-house and full-time.
Catherine: Oh, I see.
Mariko: Yeah, I was so interested. So I said, okay, yes. And I started to work with this company as Vice President and General Counsel.
Catherine: Wow. That's alongside that CEO, the Japanese engineer?
Mariko: Yes
Catherine: I see. That's so cutting edge at that time to be working in that area. And I think from what you're doing now, that gave you that kind of inspiration or excitement in that medical devices area, that gets you perhaps on this next role that you're coming back to Japan for, in GE Healthcare.
But how exciting was that for you?
Mariko: Well, so I'll give you an example, which made me so excited. So there was a factory to make batteries.
Catherine: Yes.
Mariko: At first, only 1% of the product was successful. So if you make 100 batteries, 99 batteries cannot be used. And we wondered why it happened, but the president was an engineer. So he was only interested in technology, engineering, and thinking of a new concept of battery.
And he was not so interested in how it was going on in the factory. So I went into the factory and found out that the process was not really organised. So I asked nine engineers to go into the factory and teach them how to make it, because there were nine processes to make the battery. And each engineer went to the one process and taught each of the technicians.
And then after maybe two months, a little bit more than one month, 99% of the product was successful.
Catherine: Oh, my goodness. So you turned that around.
Mariko: Yes. Well, I did not, but I ordered it.
Catherine: Yes. so you had the idea. I think you're being very humble. But you had the idea to recognise, to first of all go to the factory and find out what was going on, see the process. You could see that there are unbelievably nine processes there and get someone in to teach each of those processes, different engineers.
I think that's absolutely incredible. And again, with my manufacturing background as in-house counsel, this is very, very much inspiring and interesting to me because I can hear and see exactly what you're doing there. And I know that lawyers don't get the credit for it, but sometimes we do have an ability to see something in a different way, and that's how we can help the business.
And this is what you did.
Mariko: Yes, exactly. So I was so interested in manufacturing. And so after I came back to Japan, I wanted to be an in-house counsel where they have a manufacturing site.
Catherine: Okay. And so is that where the GE Healthcare Japan Corporation role came up for you?
Mariko: Yes.
Catherine: Right. And how did that happen? Because you came back and you would have been expected to join the firm again.
Mariko: So for three years I went back and one day I had a call from a headhunter, and he asked me whether I am interested in an in-house position. And at that time, many of the financial companies and also IT companies were hiring in-house counsel.
So I said to him that, I am not interested in finance, I am not interested in IT, but if you can offer me a position where they have a factory. And then he came back to me with this GE Healthcare position and right away, I said, okay, this is the position for me. So I will join them.
Catherine: I see. So that experience that you had in the States as well, would have been very helpful working in the manufacturing industry that you had there with that particular in-house role. I see, that is so amazing.
And so I want to also ask you then how these outside board roles came about, because they seem to blossom, shall we say, for you once you stepped away from the law firm, and you took on these in-house roles. It seems like that's the point where you got that Nihon Medi-Physics work, and then Takara TOMY now, and Tanaka holdings. But was that related to the fact that you had done in-house counsel work?
Mariko: Of course. Yes. But for Japan Medi-Physics, it was an affiliate of GE Healthcare, and GE Healthcare had to send a director. Also the partner, Sumitomo Chemical sent an outside director. So I was chosen as a person to go to Japan Medi-Physics. And so I went there and another thing I studied a lot was there was a person from Sumitomo Chemical, and I learned a lot about the Japanese company operation.
Catherine: Sumitomo Chemical and GE healthcare had a joint venture. And that was Nihon Medi-Physics, right? And you got the chance to go there, and also at that time, learn a lot about the corporate governance and how companies operate and how they make decisions, and those kinds of things, is that right?
Mariko: Yes. exactly. And because it was a 50-50 joint venture, it was difficult to make a decision. So Sumitomo Chemical and GE Healthcare always had a dispute.
Catherine: Difficult to make a decision.
Mariko: Right, right. So I was only one person at the time, a Japanese person who was on the board of Japan Medi-Physics from the GE Healthcare side.
So, I was kind of becoming a middle person between GE Healthcare and Sumitomo Chemical, and the relationship between GE Healthcare and Sumitomo Chemical was not so good at that time, but I tried to make each understand each other and become a middle person.
Catherine: Yeah. Bridging them together.
Mariko: Right, right.
Catherine: I see. That's also a very good skill of a lawyer, right? To bring people together, even negotiating big deals, you want people to actually come together and get to the answer, get to the place where they can actually cooperate together. That's amazing.
And that role was a statutory auditor role. Is that correct?
Mariko: Yes. Yes. Correct.
Catherine: Is there anything else about that role you wanted to speak about?
Mariko: Well, an outside statutory auditor’s role is not so different from an outside director's position because outside director and outside auditor need to kind of supervise the company. But the director is more on the operational side. So they supervise and advise on the operation or execution of the company.
The statutory auditor, however, has a role more to audit. So don't get into the operation, but look at the operation and see whether it is going well or not. So from my experience, it is statutory auditor's right and obligation to interview people, management and people on the execution side.
So I think that the statutory auditor can have an opportunity to understand the whole company business, better than an outside director. And so as a lawyer, to see the whole business and provide opinions is very important. So I think an outside statutory auditor’s position is very good for lawyers.
Catherine: I really love that you've talked about this because I did want to ask you about the outside statutory auditor role, because sometimes I think it's seen as the little sister to the big sister of outside director. And I believe like you've just said, and I myself in my current outside statutory auditor role that I have, really enjoy that role because you do get to do that.
Auditing, asking the questions, providing the governance, compliance, risk management in a kind of business strategy review role, being able to ask those things to be checks and balances, as well as looking at financials, obviously. So I do love that you've gone into that. And I think from your perspective, is it true that you would say to women lawyers don't discount that role as a real part of the journey to search for an outside board role?
Because outside statutory director, outside statutory auditor, I'm sorry, is also a very, very good role to have in Japan. Would that be what you would advise as well?
Mariko: Oh, yes, of course. I do recommend people, if you have an opportunity, I strongly recommend that you go, so that you can learn about the business industry. And then you will have a good skill to advise your client knowing business and industry. And that is a very important part of the lawyer, to give advice to the company's clients.
Catherine: I'm so glad you've talked about this, because I want to say hurrah for the outside statutory auditor, because I think it's a position that's undervalued perhaps, or not seen as glamorous as a director role that's on the outside. And I love that you've brought this up and I hope for people who listen to this, that they broaden their horizons and think about the outside statutory auditor role as well.
It's really amazing. And the other thing, I think that's quite obvious from the roles that you've got, is that it's quite obvious that you've taken on board roles that are not in your sector, not in your industry. And I think that's also very interesting is that most people would look perhaps for an outside board role that focuses on the same or aligned industry that they've got experience in, but you've done something different there.
What led you to go into a different industry, like the children's toys or the metallics industry, and how has that given you another perspective through that different lens of another industry?
Mariko: Yeah, good question. Because I am, as you introduced me, I really work exclusively in the life science business. So, I have a lot of clients in this sector. So if I take one company’s outside director or statutory auditor position, there will be a conflict of interest. And so I have to give up giving advice to many companies.
So when I came back to Nishimura & Asahi, of course I wanted to stay in a business, but at the same time, I saw that I will not be outside director of this life science industry. And then I had an offer from this toy company, Takara TOMY, and I thought this industry is also niche and interesting.
Catherine: Sure is.
Mariko: Yes, and it's very different from pharmaceuticals or medical devices, but maybe I can learn more from this toy business. And also Tanaka Holdings, they are the middle company, but their business is really varied, they are working for many industries. So now I can learn there from them, various industries, not only life sciences.
And so, I can think of what is the next work and I can give feedback to pharmaceutical medical device companies. So growing the area of what I know is always a good thing, even if I really focus on life science business.
Catherine: Right. I think you've hit on a great point there with broadening your vision, to other things that will bring back inspiration and ideas and other experience to your current role, you know, and where you are in your niche or niche area in life sciences. That's really interesting because I don't think we often think about that and often maybe box ourselves into certain areas, but you're saying be broader.
These experiences can give you a lot back into your current role. And I do really love that. This has been amazing so far. I wanted to also ask you about, I suppose, it's what we talked about a little bit before we did the recording today, and that was that desire that exists between women lawyers who want to be outside board directors and companies who want to hire women as outside directors or statutory auditors.
But there's that tension also that we were talking about, with that skill set that women lawyers need to have by having business experience. And I wanted you to talk a little bit more about that because I think that's an interesting perspective that you've got.
Mariko: I know that there are many young women lawyers who want to take the outside director or statutory auditor's position. And I know many companies who are willing to hire women lawyers as an outside director and outside statutory auditor, because obviously in Japan, the number of women directors and statutory auditors is too small and it is becoming a big barrier for the companies.
So, there is a market. And there are people who want to go into the market, but there is not a good match. So I am wondering how we can match those young lawyers, women lawyers, who are willing to go, and the companies who are willing to have them. And in my experience, the Japanese companies, of course it should not be only Japanese companies, but the companies have a culture and they tend to want to have people who can operate in that culture.
So they don't want people who, even if he or she is so good, but if he or she is heading to the place where the company is not willing to go, then it doesn't match. So I think the lawyers who want to be a director, or statutory auditor, it's more a matter of communication than the skills or knowledge.
Catherine: Hm.
Mariko: So I think in many cases, the companies ask the headhunters to look for the candidates, and the headhunters are looking at, what you say, how you say, what you can contribute, not too aggressive, but not too timid, and so to communicate nicely with the head hunters is one of the good ways to get such an opportunity.
Catherine: Mmm, I see. That is really interesting. Not too aggressive, not too timid, somewhere in between. But you're so right, communication. How on earth could you do your job as a great, or good even, outside director or statutory auditor, if you can't communicate? That is a really key point. And so aside from communication, what do you think are the other really important things for a lawyer who wants to be an outside board member?
Mariko: Of course you should understand the industry, the business where the company is in, and all the industries have different business models, and you have to understand such business models to be able to give good advice. So first learn how this company is making income, how this industry is growing or losing, and that is the most important thing if you be a company executive,
Catherine: Would you also add to that things like, often for me I think about being curious and interested, obviously interested in their business. Is it to have some desire to try and make changes or is that making changes or innovation, is that not really your role, or is it your role? What do you think?
Mariko: It is included in an outside director or statutory auditor’s role. Maybe the statutory auditor is not so innovative, but the outside director is required to be innovative.
For example, Takara TOMY has six outside directors who have different expertise, for example, like IT people, DX people, and also came from various industries, for example, NTT or Bank of Japan or other industries. And we started to talk among the outside counsels how we can help the company to grow for a middle or long term.
And we decided to interview with the management team and see how they can go for middle and long-term. For example, there is a leading DX company person, and he believes that even a toy business has to change that phase to DX. And we want to give advice to them so that, of course the decision is made by themselves, but they have more knowledge and they have more informed decision-making if we really give our knowledge and our experience.
Catherine: Hmm. I'd never thought of DX in the toy industry, digital transformation. That's got me thinking. Interesting. Wow. Thank you so much. I want to actually now move back to your current role, which is your Of Counsel role. And you again told me before we recorded today, that it took a little bit of work to find that role for you back in the law firm.
And I think that's a story that’s really inspirational to others who might be around their late fifties, early sixties, and think that it's really time to complete, that they don't need to have another job, or they've got this misbelief perhaps that no firm will hire them. And so I'd really love you to talk to us about this, how you did go about finding your way back to Nishimura & Asahi, and how that unfolded phase two of working with them.
Mariko: Yes. Okay. So maybe it's not so exciting. In my fifties I was only a person who has an energy and I never thought I would retire, and I will work until I will be 90 years old. And I was okay until 90 years old, but actually when I became 60 years old, I was not so… how do you say?
Catherine: Not so energetic?
Mariko: Yes, yes. So, I couldn't work for three days through, and I had to sleep more, and I have to rest more. And I thought, you know, getting older means that you have to change your way of living. So I thought, how can I work until like 80 or 90 whatsoever? If I am in a company, of course I cannot work until that time.
And so I thought I want to come back to outside counsel, because if you become a sole practitioner, there is no age limitation. And also I wanted to start slow. And don't work as hard as when I was young. And so I decided to go back to a law firm so that I can learn again how to work as a lawyer outside.
And I offered to several law firms, whether you want me, do you want me, am I helpful for your law firm? And surprisingly, all the law firms offered me to join them, and one of the law firms was Nishimura & Asahi, because I was a graduate from them and they also said that they want me, and it was kind of a surprising for me because when I left the law firm in 2004, I thought I will never come back to the law firm because the in-house counsel role and outside counsel law role is very different.
So I can never come back as an outside lawyer. However, within these 13 to 15 years the law industry has changed a lot I think. And the law firms role at that time, when I was in Nishimura & Partners before, the lawyers role was more to provide legal advice, and law is this and this and this. If you go this way, you will be like this. If you go path B, it is like this. If you go path C, it is like this, and it's your decision to choose whatever you like.
But now the client is wanting the lawyers to give more practical advice, and to give practical advice you need to understand the industry, the business, and you can be more help to the clients if you understand the business and regulation in this industry and provide advice. So the law firms were very interested in people who worked in one industry as an in-house counsel. So I thought, well, the world is changing. So now it looks like the law firms are wanting people like me to come back and work in the law firm. That was my surprise.
Catherine: Yeah, it is a surprise, isn't it? Because I would have thought the same as you, there's no way you can go back to especially a big four law firm in Japan, but there you go. That's why I also wanted you to share that, because it proves you've broken the mold and said to the disbelievers that it's not possible to return to a law firm role after being in-house, but it certainly is.
And you can provide a different kind of legal advice that is developing around the business of law as well, and giving business advice. And I know your mission is to grow that life sciences group and strengthen the relationship with your life sciences clients. And also your passion, I think, is to help that next generation of associates be really great business-minded lawyers.
I think that's right. And how are you doing that? How are you helping them to think about giving business savvy advice to their clients, to your clients?
Mariko: I do work with younger lawyers, for the legal advice to the clients. And I have a lot of meetings with the clients where the young lawyers are with me, and I think they can learn on the job, and also they can learn how to provide advice. Not only explain about the law, but to provide the consequences of what the client is willing to do, and how we can help the client to do whatever they want to do. And in many cases, of course, as a lawyer, we must say, no, if there is a big risk. But how to manage the risk? We need to communicate with the client. And so my way of providing legal advice is more communication with clients, and see what they want, and just focus on the research, not do all the research, but focus the research on the way the client wants to go. And I think they can learn from me while doing such work with me.
Catherine: What's your future dream then for this role that you're in or for the future of law in Japan?
Mariko: That's a big question.
Catherine: It is.
Mariko: And a good question.
Catherine: Yeah. What do you see as your vision for how the law will develop even more and especially you in your particular role?
Mariko: The METI, the ministry of economy and trade, is now announcing about the agile world, which means that everything is not so steady and we need to make a decision in a moving situation.
And so in this era, the law itself, and also the legal mind is very important to make a decision.
So in the past, maybe, the business was only thinking about the business, the deal. And after they make a project, they come to a lawyer, hey, is it legal or illegal? Yes or no? And the lawyer’s work was to say yes or sometimes no, but now since it's an agile era, the lawyers have to be in a decision-making process.
So a lawyer is not only a lawyer, but the lawyer should be one of the business people who gives advice from long term thinking. So the legal world is co-mingling with business, and lawyers will not only be a lawyer, but also members in the society that make the growth of the company, society or country. So I don't have any doubts that lawyers’ work will expand. No doubt.
Catherine: Co-mingling. It's a bigger role, a broader role in society, impacting society, and communities and companies more than just being very narrow within law or business. It's going to be much more expansive. I think that's very interesting. Wow. Great. Thank you.
Well, I want to change gears a little bit and just talk a bit more about your routine and maybe get a little bit philosophical, as we work towards the end of the recording today, but I want to know Mariko, how it is for you each morning.
How do you start your day and get yourself off on the right foot? And do you keep quite regular hours right now, or are they a little bit irregular with what's going on in this pandemic? Tell us a bit more about your routine.
Mariko: Yeah, actually, I am a very irregular person and there is no routine. It was not only after COVID-19 but my life was always irregular. Of course, when I was working in the company, my day was a little bit regular because I had to go to the company at nine o'clock or 9:30. And if there is a meeting at seven o'clock, I have to go early.
But really no regular routine. So if I have a meeting in the morning, I get up early, if not, I relax. And also if I'm so busy now, many days I work from home and my desk is three steps walk from my bed. So if I have a lot of work to do, I wake up, walk three steps and start working.
And if I'm not so busy, then I will have a nice breakfast. So really there's no routine in the morning.
Catherine: I see. Interesting. And what about when you finish work? Is there some favorite thing that you like to do after you finish the days?
Mariko: What I do every day without any exception is to drink before going to bed.
Catherine: I see a nice glass of sake or wine or something.
Mariko: Yes.
Catherine: I see. Okay. So what else then? I mean, you seem to be very strong minded. So I'm wondering what your traits are that you are the most proud of, perhaps being strong minded is one of those, but maybe resilience. What kinds of things about you are you very proud of?
Mariko: Wow.
I'm not so much proud of myself, but maybe if I am, I am flexible and tend to take any offer if it is possible. And I try to work for other people or companies, and I am most happy when I am appreciated.
Not a nice answer.
Catherine: It's a perfect answer. I think that flexibility, taking any offer, when I offered you to come onto the show, you said yes.
So you didn't say no, you said yes. And I think those are absolutely wonderful traits that you've got and working for other people. And I think also we do always like to be acknowledged, it's part of human nature.
And I think it's great that you called that out because it never really stops. I think anytime during our life, we still like to be recognised, acknowledged. like we've been valued. So I think that was a great answer.
Do you ever choose a theme for your year or a word of the year? For example I do. And last year in 2021, it was ‘intentional’. And so this year I'm working on my word of the year and I think it is ‘expansion’.
So I am wondering if you choose a word of the year or theme, that kind of guides you Mariko. How about that?
Mariko: Well, it's also a good question. I think I want to work for start ups more than before this year.
Catherine: What kind of startups?
Mariko: Of course, in this life science industry, there are many IT companies or bio science companies. And the reason why I wanted to work more for startups is because I now understand that there are more startups in this industry in Japan, and in the past Japan was not good at helping startups.
But now I know many people who challenge and start the startup companies, and I thought as an old experienced person, what can I do? I don't think I can make a startup myself, but maybe I can help younger people. And that's my pleasure to do.
Catherine: Lovely. Well, let's connect afterwards again because there's an organization called Impact Tech, and they have funding from the Nippon foundation and I'm sure they would love to have you as one of their advisors to help them. They are a bunch of very, very new startups in Japan.
They're selected for this program and I'm sure I can introduce you. And there may be a great opportunity to help you get going on that wish you have for 2022. Let's talk about that again.
Mariko: Yes. That's great. You know, this kind of expanding network is always nice because I met you and then I can meet many people through you, and that's how your life goes.
Catherine: It's one of my most wonderful things that I love doing. So I'm very happy to do that. So Mariko, is there anything else today that we didn't cover that you wanted to mention or anything else we did actually talk about, but you want to re emphasise?
Mariko: No, I think you are a very good interviewer and you picked up from me a lot.
Catherine: Well, we actually at the end of all about podcast recordings, we get to the final, what I call final super six. And that's a quick fire round of six questions that I ask every guest to wind up the interview. And so the first question, if I might ask you, is if I was to give you 1 million yen in cash, of course, compliant and not against the rules.
If I gave you a million yen in cash in Japan, where would you spend it? Maybe you've got a favorite store or destination, or maybe it's giving help to a startup.
Mariko: Actually, this question was very impressive and I thought realistically about what I would do if I had an extra 1 million yen. And first I thought I would organize a party.
Catherine: Oh, ok.
Mariko: And reserve a nice place in a hotel or somewhere else. And I chose 10 people or friends who I respect and ask them to bring two people who I do not know.
Catherine: Hm.
Mariko: So that I can talk with those people, I can expand the network, and maybe these people become friends and establish their own networks. And then I thought, wait a minute, if I have a party with 30 people, even if it's three hours, I can only talk with one person very short. So next I thought maybe I will divide this opportunity into ten.
And reserve a nice restaurant, and have one friend with two guests, and we have a drink among four of us, and expand our network. And I do that 10 times.
Catherine: I love it. What a great idea. You could go to 10 different restaurants and I think it would be more intimate. I love that idea. I also liked the big party idea. So maybe we should talk about that at some time as well. And wow, that's a lovely answer. Also I'd like to ask you the second question then, which is if you have a book or a podcast that you are reading or listening to, or that you've read in the past that you recommend.
Mariko: I think many of the people has already read, but one of the most impressive books I’ve read recently is in Japanese 人新生の「資本論」
And I think the English translation is Capitalism in the Anthropocene. I don't know if my pronunciation is good or not, but Capitalism in the Anthropocene is showing the new world in how people have to change their mindset and from growth to non-growth. And of course, you know, I have some things I don't agree with, but in any case, even if you agree or not, I think it's a good book to read.
Catherine: Wow. Okay. Sounds good. Is it only in Japanese? Not in English,
Mariko: I don't know. At least I read in Japanese.
Catherine: Okay. All right. Thank you for that. And what is your favorite saying, do you have a saying that you really like?
Mariko: Yes. And this is one of the sayings which I was told when I was in a very serious time. When I was working in Novartis there was a scandal and there was some integrity issue in the data of the clinical trial which the doctors have done, and Novartis had helped. And there was a big scandal and I had to lead to recover from this big scandal.
And it was so tough and hard. At that time when one of my friends gave me a word, old saying, God only challenges those who can overcome it.
Catherine: Mm.
Mariko: And I thought that was great. And that says many things. And of course, you know, it means that I should endeavor to overcome. But also this friend told me from this word that I should think by myself, what is the best solution?
And I have to think and lead people on what we can do the best. So don't depend on other people, but think for yourself, and then you will finally be able to overcome whatever situation you are in. That's the saying I like the best.
Catherine: That is lovely. Really, really nice. Wow. And moving from that, is there someone famous, or a celebrity or someone you would love to meet or have already met?
Mariko: Kamala Harris.
Catherine: Oh, yes. That's come up. I think that was also Angela Yuen's desire to meet Kamala Harris.
Okay. Why?
Mariko: Yeah. I was so impressed by her tone. Yeah,
Catherine: I see. Have you read her book?
Mariko: No, actually, no, I only heard her talk and I was so impressed. If you have a good recommendation of her book, please let me know.
Catherine: Yeah, she has a book. I have read it and I have it on my bookshelf, so you're welcome to borrow it.
Mariko: Oh, great.
Catherine: All right. So talking of bedside cabinets and what's on your bedside cabinet, if it's a book, or what is on your bedside cabinet Mariko? And something in your house perhaps that inspires you?
Mariko: Apple watch.
Catherine: Apple watch? Okay.
Mariko: And the reason is I bought this Apple watch and this is an Hermes Apple watch. And I bought it last December. The reason is, you know, I am not a technical person and I'm really not interested in new technology or new devices. And I was really not interested in Apple watch. Many young people have an Apple watch, but I thought I don't need it. But last November, I had a drink with five old men.
Catherine: Five old men.
Mariko: Yes, I had a drink with five old men and these five old men all had Apple watches.
Catherine: Oh.
Mariko: And they say, oh yours is not an Apple watch. So when young people have an Apple watch, I didn't think I would compete with them, but I thought, well, I should compete with those old men.
And so I decided to buy an Apple watch.
Catherine: But you got a brand one, did you say Hermes?
Mariko: Yes, yes.
Catherine: I didn’t know they existed. That's very interesting.
Mariko: So I think I could beat those old men now, so I'm so happy with that.
Catherine: I bet it looks good on your wrist. So next time we do meet, I look forward to looking at your wrist and seeing your Apple watch. Wow. That's really interesting. And one last question, what is something about you that people do not know? Maybe the Apple watch was one thing, but is there something else about you that a lot of people do not know?
Mariko: Yeah, I thought about what people don't know about me, and I think I'm a rather transparent person, but I’m very sure that nobody knows that I am every day deeply considering about two choices; whether I take a bath first or whether I drink sake first. And I always tend to drink sake first, but once I drink then I don't want to take a bath, it's more difficult to take a bath if I’m more drunk.
Catherine: You are funny.
Mariko: Every day, half of my story is about sake or drink.
Catherine: This is in the evening, isn't it?
Mariko: Of course. Yes. After I come back from work and I'm so tired, I just sit down and say, wow, do I take a bath now? So that my sake will be more of a happy one, but I'm so tired.
So I want one drink before bath, something like that.
Catherine: Well, that's funny, very, very, very funny. You've really enlightened me and made this a very joyous episode. So Thank you Mariko. We've unfortunately come to the end. And so you really have shared with us so many very funny, but also truly inspirational stories.
I'm a real believer even more than before, that we women lawyers shouldn't be bound by the number that's our age. We should keep on driving forward, beat those old men, and do things, right? Be wearing our grit and achieving anything we can in our lawyer and personal lives. So thank you so much for coming on and sharing your stories and your insights and nuggets of advice.
It's been really great to connect with you. Thank you so much.
Mariko: Thank you so much. It was a pleasure to talk with you.
Catherine: So how can listeners, and other aspiring lawyers connect with you? Can they do that through your law firm on LinkedIn? How can they connect?
Mariko: Oh, well, please send me an email. That's the best way.
Catherine: Okay, that's great. We'll put that in the show notes afterwards. So anyone who's interested in connecting with you can connect through email. That's brilliant. Okay.
Mariko: Yes. Don't hesitate to do so.
Catherine: It will show up on your wrist, on your Apple watch when they contact you.
Mariko: Yes, thank you.
Catherine: Well, I'll finish it there. We've had this fantastic conversation about so many different things.
I'm really grateful for you for coming on being my first guest in Season Three of Lawyer on Air. And I really thank you for your honesty and openness. You definitely are transparent.
For all of my listeners, please do like this episode, subscribe to Lawyer on Air, and do also drop us a short review as that helps Lawyer on Air be seen and heard by many people.
You can actually also jump over to my web page and leave me a voicemail. That way we get to hear your actual voice telling us about what you enjoyed about today's guest. Thank you so much everybody, do go ahead and share this episode and be inspired to live a wonderful lawyer extraordinaire life. That's all for now.
See you on the next episode. Cheers, kampai, and bye for now
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