The power of reflection and paying attention in building your law career in M&A with Jessika Colthurst
Full transcript follows.
Jessika Colthurst did not start out her university career thinking she would be a lawyer, in fact she was studying accounting and psychology when an introduction to law lecturer piqued her interest. That was a catalyst for a series of decisions which has led Jessika to become an M&A rising star here in Tokyo. If you are feeling behind in your law studies or career or out of alignment with what you are doing, then this episode is for you.
If you enjoyed this episode and it inspired you in some way, we’d love to hear about it and know your biggest takeaway. Head over to Apple Podcasts to leave a review and we’d love it if you would leave us a message here!
In this episode you’ll hear:
How Jessika found her way to the law via psychology, accounting and South East Asia
The importance of following your gut and how Jessika did this with great success
Why it’s really never too late for anything you want to do in your legal career and life
How Jessika’s life changed just by paying attention to what was happening around her
Some fun information about what it’s like to work in a Japanese company
What Jessika loves about being a cross border M&A lawyer
Her favourite book and other fun facts
About Jessika
Jessika is Japanese-Australian-American and has spent formative years in all three countries. She was born in Australia to American and Japanese parents, lived in Texas for over 5 years, Japan for the next 4, and then Australia again where she finished her schooling and attended university.
Today, Jessika is a senior associate in Ashurst's Corporate Transactions Practice, and she has been based in Tokyo since 2017. Jessika advises clients on all manner of general corporate advisory work, but focuses on cross-border M&A.
Jessika didn't expect to become a lawyer. She had started studying dual degrees majoring in Psychology and Accounting at the University of the Sunshine Coast in Queensland. Her interest in transferring to law was sparked by a particular lecturer she had for one of her foundational business units during her third semester, Introduction to Business Law. She was feeling uninspired by her short uni career to date and took a semester off to backpack around SE Asia with a high school friend for a few months to recalibrate. She made her final decision while she was away that she would like to study law when she returned to Australia. So Jessika transferred to QUT and moved to Brisbane, where she completed dual degrees in law and business (still majoring in accounting).
Jessika began her legal career at a national law firm in Australia. Through great luck and good timing, she was given the opportunity be seconded from the firm to the legal department of a trading house in Tokyo. Jessika had always wanted to return to Japan at some point as an adult and test what she could do with her career in Tokyo. She never expected an opportunity to arise this early in her career (at least without more effort and intentional planning) so she jumped at the opportunity. Jessika was on secondment for nearly 2.5 years and loved her Tokyo life. She was joined 6 months after she arrived by her then-boyfriend who is now her husband. They both love living and working in Tokyo and have made many great friends over the years, so as her secondment was coming to an end, they felt they weren't ready to leave. Jessika looked for opportunities to join a law firm with an office in Tokyo as she was itching to get back into private practice. A good friend (and now colleague) introduced her to a Partner heading up Ashurst's Japan Corporate Transactions practice. Jessika knew immediately that she could learn so much from the Partner, and since then, has been really inspired by her passion and drive. Jessika joined Ashurst in September 2019 and has been beavering away in their busy Japan Corporate Transactions practice ever since.
Connect with Jessika
LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/jessika-colthurst-1971a264/
Links
Foundation by Isaac Imanov https://www.amazon.co.jp/Foundation-Isaac-Asimov/dp/0553293354
Curb your enthusiasm: https://www.hbo.com/curb-your-enthusiasm
Connect with Catherine
Linked In https://www.linkedin.com/in/oconnellcatherine/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lawyeronair
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/catherine.oconnell.148
Twitter: https://twitter.com/oconnelllawyer
Transcript
Catherine: Hi, everyone. Welcome to Season Two, Episode Six of Lawyer on Air. I'm Catherine O'Connell. Today I am joined by Jessika Colthurst, who is a foreign lawyer in Tokyo. Jessika is Japanese, Australian, American and spent her formative years in all three countries. She was born in Australia to American and Japanese parents, lived in Texas for five years, Japan for the next four years, and then back to Australia again, where she finished up her schooling and attended university.
Jessika has been based in Tokyo since 2017. And currently she is a senior associate in Ashurst's corporate transactions practice. Jessika advises clients on all manner of general corporate advisory work. And she focuses on cross border mergers and acquisitions.
Jessika started out studying dual degrees, majoring in psychology and accounting, and she tells me that she didn't expect to become a lawyer. And we'll go into that a little bit more today. Jessika’s journey I think is really inspiring in that it illustrates that we can set out to do something and end up doing something else that is even better for us. More on that shortly.
Jessika began her legal career at a national law firm in Australia. She was given the opportunity to be seconded from the firm to come to Japan and work in the legal department of a trading house in Tokyo. Jessika had always wanted to return to Tokyo at some point as an adult and test out just what she could do with her career in Tokyo.
She never really expected an opportunity to arise so early in her career, which really goes to show that you never know when an amazing and life-changing opportunity will pop up, and you need to be ready to reach out and take it. Having jumped at that chance, Jessika was on secondment that lasted for nearly two and a half years.
And like most long-term residents of Tokyo, she did love her Tokyo life, and she was joined six months after arriving here by her then boyfriend, who now is her husband. They both love living and working in Tokyo and have made many great friends over the years. I think the hardest thing about secondments from my personal experiences, they come to an end or else you can get hired by the company you're seconded to.
And also some people who love being on secondment go out and try to look for an in-house legal role and others still want to be back in private practice. For Jessika, she knew she wanted to both stay in Japan and wanted to be back in a law firm. And she did just that and found herself at Ashurst where she is now and has been for the last two years.
Jessika is also Co Vice President of Women in Law Japan. And she really helps me in this group. She's a solid and sensible person I can really rely on. She's a straight shooter and very kind and professional in the way that she does that. So I readily understand how she would be a magnet for clients. I've witnessed her grow her career the last couple of years, and I really wanted her to be on the podcast to tell us a little bit more about her career path, so she too can be an inspiration to others. So I'm so happy to have Jessika as my guest today. Jessika, welcome to the show.
Jessika: Thank you so much, Catherine. That's a really lovely introduction. Thank you.
Catherine: Thank you. And today though, Jessika, we're going to be talking about your pivot and recalibration during your university studies, how you came to Japan for the secondment, seizing that opportunity with both hands, and then how you navigated your career in Japan to where you are now carving out this niche you've got in cross border corporate M&A. And I'd also love you to give us some nuggets of advice for young lawyers on their career path.
We're talking online today. Again, we're still at the situation where we're not all back in the office and we're all still working remotely. But if you and I were going to be meeting up in person, Jessika, where would that be? Do you have a favorite wine bar or cafe or restaurant in Tokyo that you love and what would be your choice off the beverage menu?
Jessika: So as you know Tokyo is full of really great food and drink. It's hard to pick an absolute favorite. And I actually really love trying new places all the time. So if we were going to meet somewhere, I'd probably ask you to pick the place just so that I could learn something new. If it was say a brunch or a lunch, I might have a coffee.
And if it was after hours, I think I would have red wine.
Catherine: What kind of red wine?
Jessika: Pinot.
Catherine: Ooh, same as me. I thought you'd go for a Shiraz.
Jessika: I'm a pinot girl.
Catherine: Ah, same. There we go. There's another calibration together that we have. I love pinot as well. Goodness me. I was trying to also think back to when we officially met and I've got my fingers doing speech marks around officially, but I think it was during 2019, maybe the latter part, maybe it was when we had that Women in Law dinner to plan out 2020.
Jessika: Definitely a WILJ event, but it could have even been earlier, and it was definitely before I was on the exec committee. I think it was an evening event. And just like a mutual person that we both know was like, Hey Catherine, do you know Jess?
And we just started chatting. And then of course, I think once you know somebody in Tokyo, it's really common to just start seeing them everywhere. Which is what it felt like.
Catherine: Yeah. That was then. Okay. So maybe it was earlier, earlier in 2019.
Jessika: Yeah, I was definitely still on my secondment.
Catherine: So it was back then. Oh my goodness.
Jessika: When did you start your business, Catherine? Because I think that might be one of the first things we talked about and your business was fairly new at the time.
Catherine: Okay. So that was 2018 in April. So it must, maybe it was 2018 we met?
Jessika: Yeah. Yeah I think it was. It was a long time ago.
Catherine: So we officially met in 2018. That's great. All right. And then you did become a member of the executive committee and in 2020 January, we had the lovely new year's party. And I know there's lots of pictures of you on the website because you're enjoying that evening. I think you brought some associates to the party or friends to that party.
So you're all over the website. So if people want to have a look, they can pop in and have a look there and see you. And then there was another time too. There was a person I knew in Sojitz who was a C-suite person and you were on secondment to Sojitz and we had a conversation about that as well. Yeah. So there’s been quite a few connection points, and I've really enjoyed working with you too, as co vice president.
Jessika: Oh, absolutely. I enjoy it so much. So thank you Catherine.
Catherine: Lovely. Ashurst has been such a great sponsor for Women in Law Japan, and we've had speakers too from your firm. So thank you so much for all of that.
Jessika: Of course.
Catherine: I'm glad we've worked out everything now, how we got together. So yeah, one of my very first questions I always ask people is your desires when you were a child. What did you want to be when you grew up? What sort of things were happening around you or what you thought about or felt when you were a child?
Jessika: I think I had a pretty great childhood. I was lucky to be raised in three distinctly different and interesting countries. So all of my family's either... extended family’s, either in the US or in Japan.
But when we lived in either of those countries, we would always be close to our family and see them a lot. What did I want to be? I think I went through a lot of different phases and I didn't really know, but I didn't worry about that. It wasn't something that gave me anxiety or feel like I needed to know.
Catherine: That's good.
Jessika: Yeah. In fact, by the time I was finishing high school and applying to universities, I really didn't know what I wanted to do, but I picked two topics that, well, I picked one topic I was interested in, which was psychology. And one topic that I thought would be practical and useful, which was accounting.
Catherine: That's interesting because I think some people would really, as a child, they know what they want to be. And I remember doing hopscotch and all us girls wanted to be air hostesses. It was the thing you just said. And I don't even know if we really wanted that, or we said it because everyone else was saying it.
But it doesn't always matter, but it's interesting to ask this question because some people start off saying something that doesn't seem related to law, but ends up actually quite related. But I love that you don't have an absolute memory of that so much as it wasn't impactful on not knowing what you wanted to be and being quite open in a way, right?
Jessika: Yeah. When you said air hostess that actually rung a bell for me. I definitely went through a phase of thinking that would be a very cool job to have.
Catherine: But in your introduction, and just as you said, you mentioned that you started out studying dual degrees, majoring in something you liked; psychology, and something you thought would be practical; accounting.
And that was at the University of the Sunshine Coast in Queensland. But then you also said to me earlier that you didn't expect to become a lawyer and ended up though transferring to law. So tell us about that journey, because I think there was a particular professor who inspired you and sparked your jump over to the law.
Jessika: Yeah. Yeah, no, her name was Dr. Lucy Craddock. She is still a university professor, so shout out Dr. Lucy. She is a lawyer. And she was teaching a foundational business unit called introduction to business law, I think was the name of the unit. And anybody studying business would have to take that regardless of your major.
So you could be doing marketing, finance, what have you. She just really impressed me as a super together and polished and smart and interesting sounding woman, that just watching her, I immediately was impressed by her and wanted to emulate that style that she had. And I really liked the way that she described what it's like to learn legal skills.
She said it's like walking through a doorway or learning to ride a bike. You don’t forget, you can't lose those skills once you've learned them. They just stay with you and you don't need to be a lawyer to find them useful. And I just loved that. And it also, at the time I was only in my third semester. So I'd been at uni for 18 months and just not really feeling it.
I was going through the motions. I didn't know what I wanted with my life and felt like I didn't have a great deal of direction.
Catherine: Did you feel you were there because you had to be there because everyone else was at university? Was it a bit like that?
Jessika: A little bit. Yeah, also I didn't know what else I would do if I didn't, cause doing nothing wasn't really an option, and I was working always, at least part-time and then usually full-time during my holidays, the entire time that I was at university. I had that, I did feel like I had to do uni.
Catherine: Yeah. So what happened there? You're inspired by Dr. Lucy Craddock and she's got something there that triggers you to think a little bit differently.
What happened?
Jessika: I decided I should take a little bit of time. Maybe reflect a bit, change scenery. So actually I took off an entire semester and tacked that onto my summer holidays as well. So I just worked full time a couple of months. And then I was traveling around Southeast Asia with a high school friend of mine for about four months.
And really used that time to just unwind, read more books again, think about what I'm interested in as a human and see some interesting things that I'd never seen before and learn some things about new places. So while I was doing that and just getting back to basics, living really a basic life, I thought, when I go back to Australia, I'm going to transfer to law and just see how that goes.
And even when I decided to do that, I still actually didn't think I was going to become a lawyer. I just thought I was going to learn some very useful legal skills and also just academically. And I did think I was going to find all of that very interesting.
Catherine: But taking time off university must have been a difficult decision or was it quite easy to do for you?
Jessika: It was easy for me to decide that I wanted that. I did have to justify the decision to my parents and they weren't too difficult about it. They're not super strict and don't have a particular mold that they expect me to fit, but they do expect me to work hard and be responsible and that kind of thing.
Catherine: But they only really want your happiness at the end of the day. So you told them you're going off on holiday, or on a sojournment to have some time off and be with your friend and think about things and that's great. That ended up being very pivotal for you then that journey away.
Jessika: Totally
Catherine: Did studying law then, even though you didn't think you wanted to be a lawyer, but that change to law, was that something that had occurred to you one day when you woke up on your journey or was it something that progressed over time while you're away with your friend?
Jessika: I think the seed was planted before I left. It was when I was sitting in that lecture, listening to Dr Lucy, and then it was percolating while I was traveling. And I don't remember if it was two or three months in, but somewhere maybe like mid to latter half of that trip was when I finished making my decision. Before I even came back, I had to get my Dad in Australia to help me apply to transfer universities and things like that. That I would be able to pick up relatively soon after getting back to Australia.
Catherine: And so you transferred out of QUT?
Jessika: Ah, transferred into QUT.
Catherine: Into QUT, of course. Queensland University of Technology, right?
Jessika: Yeah. Yeah.
Catherine: Okay. And were you able to transfer over those papers you'd already done, they got a credit to the new university?
Jessika: Yeah, I did. I got quite a few credits because even when I did transfer to QUT I actually continued a dual degree. So I dropped the psychology part. I was doing business and law. So still majoring in accounting for the business side of things.
Catherine: So you dropped psychology, which you liked?
Jessika: Yeah, I liked it and I was interested in it. I didn't really see what my career in that would be. It was just something that I thought I was interested in. Also in your first couple of semesters, you have to do a lot of data analysis, which I’m not too keen on.
Catherine: For psychology?
Jessika: So I thought if this is going to continue, then maybe I should rethink this.
Catherine: It's a little more involved than what we think, but I expect that psychology comes into being a lawyer right now.
So maybe some of that initial interest in it and work in it has been very helpful for you. And recently I've had a number of law students and university graduates who didn't even do law, listening into the podcast and reaching out after listening to guests like you, Jessika, who feel not only inspired but I would say comforted to know that there's no one set path and it's okay to change what you thought you would initially do or thought you would be in the future.
Jessika: Oh, yeah, totally agree with that.
Catherine: So from your experience then, are there learnings to share with any of the listeners about courage or knowing thyself and making that kind of decision to change your major and sidestep from university for a while and take some time out?
Jessika: I guess I would say it's okay to follow your gut.
If you feel like something isn't right, then chances are that’s not going to change. That feeling's not going to change and vice versa too. Even if you can't quite articulate why yet, if you get a lot of joy out of something or if you're just really interested in it, don't feel too pressured to be able to explain the why of it.
Just follow that.
Catherine: Okay. Follow your gut. I like that. It usually tells you what's really going on and not what comes out of your mouth and telling other people. Oh, okay. So when you came back to Brisbane then, did you have a chat with that professor about the pivot?
Jessika: Yeah, I did. I did.
And she actually even started lecturing at QUT and actually you know what? This is like bringing back memories. I think part of the reason I selected QUT in the end might've been because of her as well, because that's where she had done her law degree.
Catherine: Ah, there you go. And she transferred from Sunshine Coast over to QUT?
Jessika: Not as a student, but as a lecturer.
Catherine: Yes, as a lecturer. But that just happened to be when you transferred.
Jessika: Yeah, that just happened to occur as well.
Catherine: Isn't that interesting? What happens in the background. And you still keep in touch with her?
Jessika: It’s been a little while, but just like every now and then I might send her a message.
Catherine: Wow. How interesting. And did you enjoy then, having transferred to law, did you find you started to really get into it and enjoyed studying law?
Jessika: I did enjoy it. I liked it. I also made some really good friends. It's really common in Australia for people to study law with something else, together.
Catherine: Yeah, I think it's always a good thing to do two things. And I've been telling this to a few people recently, is that combining law plus, for example, Japanese language, or law plus engineering, or chemistry, or another kind of a subject. You have two skills. It really does make good sense, I think, in these days.
Jessika: Yeah. It definitely gives you a competitive edge or not having that maybe makes you uncompetitive even, but I made good friends while I was there. And just really enjoyed my Brisbane life in general, actually.
Catherine: Very good. And then you're working at a university, working at a national firm. Was that during your time at university? I thought, it sounds to me like you were doing study as part of maybe articles. How does that system work that you were with?
Jessika: Yeah, so the whole time I was at uni I was always working. For most of my Brisbane uni career I worked for two places. One was a boutique accounting firm and then after that was a boutique sort of wealth management firm, because I still thought I was more likely to use the accounting side of things career-wise.
And I hadn't done any clerkships or anything like that. And in my final year of uni I suddenly thought to myself, hang on, I've just been assuming I'll never be a lawyer, but maybe I should give it a crack. And if I don't start with that, it's probably hard to transition that way more so than transitioning from law to something in commerce.
So just in my last year, I decided that I was going to become a lawyer and actually qualify. So then in a rush, I tried to find myself some work experience in a law firm.
Catherine: I see. Okay. So first up it was the accounting, boutique accounting firm, and then you pivoted to getting law firm experience as well. And so you have to find these positions?
The university doesn't help you with it, like a job board or something like that?
Jessika: I think there's ways to do more formally placed internships and things like that. For the law side of things, I left it a little bit too late. So I had to get real scrappy and take care of it myself at the end.
Catherine: But you found it. Even in your last year, you could still find a position.
Jessika: Oh yeah. It's almost never too late for anything, I would say. You can always make some kind of effort to make something happen, even if it feels impossible I think. And I was really actually self-conscious and worried that I might have left the decision of trying law a bit too late, because all of my peers that actually had been planning for a while, if not their whole legal careers, that they were going to qualify as a lawyer and go into that as their career, many of them had done two, three, maybe even four clerkships up to that point and gotten more permanent, or at least semi-permanent, jobs out of that already with law firms.
And I felt like I was starting on a huge back foot. But yeah, it all worked out.
Catherine: Yeah. So actually it didn't matter in the end. And we often compare ourselves to others who seem to have got everything all under control or sorted out, but there you were at the last stretch and you still managed to do that. So that's interesting.
So was that the firm that you joined in the end after graduating QUT?
Jessika: It was. I got lucky in that regard as well. There was a guy who was a senior associate at the time, he's a partner now, who was delivering a guest lecture at my uni and talking about what it's like to be a corporate lawyer in Australia.
And I just really liked his vibe. And I liked the work and lifestyle that he was describing. So I chatted to him afterwards and just started a rapport with him. And then I actually emailed him after that, I think, saying, is there any way that I could maybe do an unpaid internship or anything like that.
And actually it worked out. So I started on a trial basis like that, and then it turned into a research clerking position and then that turned into a full-time job.
Catherine: So what would your advice be to others from that? Is it just good to just put your hand up and ask?
Jessika: Yeah. Definitely.
Catherine: And what if you hadn’t attended that lecture?
Jessika: I know. Then who knows what would have happened?
Catherine: It's so interesting isn’t it, that serendipity, this timing and place, often plays out so much in our lives. Wow. So tell me about that first year as a new lawyer. What it was like, what your most vivid memory was. Did you get to work with that senior associate?
Jessika: Yeah, I did. I really enjoyed working with him. It was a great firm. A lot of really nice people. I learned a lot as you do in any new job.
Catherine: It sounds like you remember a lot of comradery, which is great.
Jessika: Yeah.
Catherine: That first year though, is quite an interesting year. I'm just thinking back to my own self as well, but perhaps you went straight into a corporate role.
Jessika: I did.
Catherine: I was more general practice, so I got to see all kinds of things as well as corporate, going into court. But you went straight into your speciality, right?
Jessika: Yeah. And that was a really good fit for me. I feel like corporate lawyers are generalists in a way. And I really like that about corporate law still today. Even after deciding that I would give law a shot, I never saw myself as a courtroom advocate or anything like that.
So I very much like being on the front-end of transactions.
Catherine: Okay. Before this, I thought, oh, Jessika's a bit of a planner. She likes to map things out and set her goals and work towards them. But now, as I've heard your stories that I didn't know before, it seems like you're actually more a bit of both, hybrid. Planner but an opportunist as well.
And taking things when they come to you.
Jessika: Yeah. The big changes in my life have always come quickly, and I've just made snap decisions.
Catherine: But you know you're right. And again, is that trusting your gut?
Jessika: I think so.
Catherine: Goodness, that's amazing. And so you had already planned and wanted to come back to Japan at some point as an adult, and I think you'd said you wanted to test out what you could do with your career, but then this opportunity arose for you early in that career.
Tell us about that. How were you chosen? How did that come about?
Jessika: Yeah. So I was a still budding lawyer early in my career. I think I had been qualified for about 18 months or so, and an opportunity for secondment came up because the firm that I was working at, they had a really good relationship with one of the Japanese trading houses from their investments in the mineral resources sector in Queensland and New South Wales in particular.
So I was the second secondee that they ended up sending to Tokyo. I'm glad I had my eyes open. I was looking on the intranet, just scanning generally, not really searching for anything in particular. And I noticed there was this call for expressions of interest in a secondment to a Japanese client. And I just said me, me, me, pick me please.
It obviously helped a lot that I speak Japanese with huge thanks to my mom who put all the effort into making sure that I would grow up bilingual. And there were a couple other candidates, but they interviewed me first because of the Japanese language skills. And it was an online interview, but it just went really smoothly and all fell into place.
Catherine: Interesting. And it was on the intranet. It wasn't as if the senior associate you worked with, came to you with it or somebody else from the firm. I think it sounds like they made it available for anybody.
Jessika: Yeah, it was available to anybody. And I'm just so glad I was on there again, paying attention.
Catherine: You're at a lecture listening. You're on the intranet, seeing this opportunity and applied for it and had the interview. That's incredible. And someone was there before you, so they had pioneered or set the path for a secondee ahead of you. Interesting. Did you ever get to meet that person or talk with that person before you went?
Jessika: Yeah, I did. I think even before my interview, I called him just to say, what's it like? What do you think about it? Do you have any advice? I think he had a great time.
Catherine: Was he also Australian?
Jessika: Yeah, he was Australian and zero Japanese language skills. I think he had more knowledge of the client from having worked on their matters before he had even gone across, which I didn't have the benefit of, but of course I could communicate in Japanese.
But yeah, he was in what was called the commercial team and I was in the corporate team. They're pretty similar, just different client industries.
Catherine: I’m thinking of, I know someone who was at Sojitz, but I'm not sure if it was the same person, but interesting.
Jessika: Oh really?
Catherine: A person who also then after that went to Hogan Lovells?
Jessika: No.
Catherine: Okay. Different person. All right. So you jumped at that opportunity. You landed in Tokyo in 2017 and you've been here since then, but you lived here at a younger age, but hadn't actually lived and worked here before. So what surprised you then about coming back to Japan and doing work here?
Jessika: When I lived in Japan with my family, we actually lived in Chiba a town called Yachiyo, it's on the Tozai Sen (Tozai Line). Coming back, A.) as an adult, B.) living in Tokyo, was a completely different experience, because when I lived in Japan I was 10 or 11 until the age of 14 ish. So like I did shogakkou 6 nensei (6th grade) full year at elementary school. And then I did almost all of chuugakkou . Actually we left a few months before my graduation.
Catherine: From intermediate school or what’s it called? Junior high?
Jessika: Junior high. Basically grades six through nine is what I did in Japan. Just like attending two local public schools. Coming back as an adult and living in Tokyo was a completely new experience for me.
Even if you don't speak any Japanese whatsoever, I think Tokyo still is one of the most convenient places that you can live, certainly the safest, I would say. But it was just exciting to come from Australia, particularly Brisbane that has I think around 3 million people, to Tokyo, which is truly international, working for a large Japanese trading house in their head office, downtown Tokyo. And their legal department is quite big. I think even at the time they had 40 plus people and it's even bigger today. Yeah. I just felt like I'd really hit the big time. So that was exciting.
Catherine: Yeah, tell us about that secondment. How was it? Did you sit in an open office like most Japanese companies, and did they have an induction for you? How did it all work?
Jessika: For anybody who hasn't worked in a Japanese company before, if you can imagine being in a big, relatively new, clean, modern looking large high rise in downtown Tokyo. So you're surrounded by windows on the four walls.
Your “Bucho”, your department head, has his own big standalone desk, which he sits at with his back to the window, facing inwards. And from there you just have rows and rows of these long desks where all the other employees will sit and you have a bit more room than this, but basically rubbing elbows with your two neighbors sitting on the long lines of desks. So it's a very different environment from working inside of a law firm, particularly in Australia.
Catherine: Yeah, it can be a bit of a surprise to a lot of people, can’t it, going into a Japanese company for the first time on secondment or as an in-house lawyer being in those rows which they called islands, don't they? The Shima.
Jessika: That’s right. Shima, yeah. Islands.
Catherine: Yeah, it's interesting. I ended up being one of that guy at the end of the table, the bucho, the department head. So I was one of those people, at one point. But it's interesting. Isn't it? That surprise. So were you in the middle of that group in the line, or did they pop you further at the top? Or at the other end?
Jessika: We would have relatively frequent “sekigae”, seat change. Probably more than once a year. I don’t know if it was once every six months, but definitely more than once a year. Yeah. Sometimes I was on the end and corner seats were always coveted. Occasionally I would be bang in the middle.
Catherine: And you got to work with a few other people then as well?
Jessika: Yes, it was a very collaborative working environment, which I really enjoyed actually.
Catherine: What kind of work was it? Was it related back to your firm or was it separate projects and assignments that you were doing within Sojitz yourself?
Jessika: There happened to be a couple of matters that my firm either pitched on or was working on, but that was just circumstantial. They don't particularly aim for that.
I guess the bulk of the work was cross border M&A. The company either buying into, or selling down, or exiting from investments mostly overseas, mostly in the APAC region. I was lucky enough to do a few business trips as well, which was very cool and interesting.
I went to the Philippines and I think Jakarta, I went to twice.
Catherine: Yeah, they’re always good, aren't they? To see the region and different countries and different ways of doing business. Yeah. So I'm going to ask you a big question. Tips for success as a lawyer on secondment, what are Jessika's tips?
Jessika: I would say, make as many contacts as you can. Really get to know how that business or that client works.
Also just for personal reasons, getting to know as many people as you can, and some real one-on-one time to get to know them will serve you. I still stay in touch with a lot of people that I met and worked with during my secondment. That's probably my number one tip.
Catherine: Yeah, that says a lot. If you're still in touch, it wasn't just a secondment that you were, thanks very much you're off, but you've kept in touch with people.
So was that two years from the beginning or did it expand into two years that you were there?
Jessika: It expanded into that. I think it was like 12 months and then with a renewal or maybe 18 months for the renewal, but ended up being just under two and a half years in total.
Catherine: So you enjoyed it. But in that second year, I think you felt an itch to be back in private practice, which for someone like me who spent a lot of time in-house, it's like, why did you want to go back to private practice?
But also, you didn't really quite want to return to Australia. So how did you then look for your opportunities to be further involved in law in Japan?
Jessika: I did end up speaking to a couple of recruiters just because it feels like you should, and it's not too hard to do that. But the job that I ended up taking was through a personal connection actually. Because when I was thinking I want to stay and just figure out what my next moves could potentially be, I put out feelers to people that I know and trust, or am interested in what they're doing in Tokyo. And that really happened quite organically as well, actually. I did go to a few interviews that were set up for me through the recruiters. But in the end, I was really happy to choose Ashurst.
Catherine: But it ties into your, make as many contexts as you can.
And that would have been within Sojitz, but also outside. So you're quite social and you were out meeting people. And then in Japan, of course, finding a job here, normally it's through a recruiter. It's one of the processes, isn't it? So you were meeting people internally in the firm you were seconded to, but also externally and keeping your contacts.
So it was actually a personal introduction though, that worked out in the end to introduce you to Ashurst.
Jessika: Yeah, that's right.
Catherine: Oh, it's lovely. Yeah. And this year you were promoted to Senior Associate.
Jessika: Yes.
Catherine: Yay. So what's work life there like now for you? Corporate M&A must be something many listeners aspire to and could only really dream of doing in another country outside of their home jurisdiction.
Tell us what that's like. Describe a bit of what it's like for people who are listening, who don't really know a lot about that.
Jessika: Sure M&A is a term that I think a lot of people hear and maybe like definitely when I was still studying I didn't really know what that meant. And I guess it's because M&A transactions can take so many different forms.
It might mean different things to different people. But I guess, broadly, and in a nutshell, it's buying and selling things. Cross-border makes it more interesting. Cause usually it means you've got counter parties involved who are from different backgrounds, different cultures, maybe have different languages.
It always introduces some interesting elements into the transaction process. Being based in Tokyo, I worked primarily for Japanese clients who are either investing into projects or businesses overseas, or maybe selling down, or exiting from projects that they've been in for a while. Yeah. It's been a really busy two years so far at Ashurst.
When COVID first hit none of us really knew what was going to happen, but expected that it would slow things down and it did for a couple of months, but then things picked up very quickly and have just been going really strong ever since.
Catherine: Gosh, that's interesting. And what kind of person is suited for corporate M&A?
What kind of qualities or skills should they have?
Jessika: One of the things that I like about it, and this is with any transactional work, it ebbs and flows. So when you're really busy, you're really, really, really busy.
Catherine: Stamina, stamina might be required, right?
Jessika: Yeah. But when things are quiet, you get a real break.
I love the up and down. I don't think I would last too long in a very consistent nine to five that doesn't change. I need stimulus.
Catherine: Ah, so you like the thrill of the up and down. You're okay working really hard when you need to, but easing back when things are a bit quieter.
Jessika: Yeah. I like that. Yeah.
Catherine: Interesting. Cause I think that's a really important quality you've pulled out there because many people may not really want that. They'd like the consistency of keeping it at the same pace, but you're talking about different pace here and there. Yeah. Okay. So what do you actually love about your role?
What do you really like about your role now as a lawyer? A couple of aspects that you think that you really enjoy? Because it sounds like M&A is not really for the faint at heart.
Jessika: I love how I work with so many interesting people who are so different and that's both inside of my firm, but also at the client level too.
Like the diversity is just so interesting and exciting. Always keeps me on my toes. So that's probably the thing I love the most.
Catherine: Would you recommend lawyers work in M&A? Is it beneficial to have that on their CV?
Jessika: Yeah, definitely. I think so, but obviously I'm biased. Yeah, but I do think so. I don't think it's going anywhere.
Catherine: And so again, I'm going to ask you another tip question. This time it's being a lawyer in a law firm in Tokyo. What are the sort of long-term success tips you would have? You've been there a couple of years now. What things come to mind to make you successful?
Jessika: This is the same answer I just gave earlier, but I do, again, think it's important to build your personal connections. And then maybe second to that, take good care of yourself. Listen to your gut. Because when you come out of a really busy period, you do need time to recuperate from that, and letting yourself do that and appreciating it and acknowledging that it takes a little bit of time to do that.
Catherine: Do you have to keep up with your skills like CLE or other… keep yourself brushed up on various parts of the law or changes in industries?
Jessika: Yeah, no, absolutely. Which being in private practice makes it easier to do than when in-house I think, as a general rule. The firm just will have resources dedicated to helping you do that as a lawyer. Whereas I think if you're in-house, it depends of course, on the company that you're working for.
But you might have to make a little bit more personal effort and do a bit more planning to make sure that you stay as brushed up as you would like.
Catherine: And I see that Ashurst has introduced a couple of new policies to make it easier to work at your firm, around parental leave and around those kinds of things.
So I think that's really interesting these days, to be looking for law firms that are providing something that a little bit different to enable you to have a good life and a good experience working in a law firm here.
Jessika: Yeah. Yeah, definitely.
Catherine: Good. Okay. You've talked a bit about your very busy times when you're on deals and then you're quieter times, but I'm interested to think about your routine that you follow during the day, Jessika, and a little bit more day-to-day. The thing that you do first now in the morning that sets yourself off on the right foot?
Jessika: I will go upstairs. I work from home most days, so I go upstairs, start boiling some water. I have a Google home, so I tell it to start playing me the news.
Catherine: Okay. You've got yourself set up for your electronics there, yeah?
Jessika: Yeah. And while my water's boiling, I might do some stretches, make some coffee and that's kind of the thing I need to get kickstarted.
Catherine: What's your favorite thing about your workspace at home?
Jessika: I sit looking out of a window. It just looks at my neighbor across the way, but I can see some leaves, which is nice, but it's just good to have a bit of natural light.
Catherine: And how about your laptop? When do you switch on and then do you switch off later in the day? Do you have a regimented day where you turn off at lunchtime or is everything full on?
Jessika: I really don’t. Yeah. Which maybe I should make an effort to try and put some rigid stops in, I don't know,
Catherine: That could be a plan for 2022. How about winding down then at the end of the day, how do you do that?
Jessika: It really depends on the day as to what time it is when that's happening, but the way I wind down is just hanging out and talking to my husband probably.
Catherine: Oh, that sounds glorious. I think that sounds great. And then again, to roundabout now, if we were out at a bar, Jessika, and we'd had some pinot, we probably would have had a couple of glasses.
I want to ask you about your traits that you're proud of. And often I hear resilience coming through for my guests. But what do you think your traits are that you are really most proud of?
Jessika: I think I’m pretty curious. And I like that about myself. Yeah. I do think I'm resilient too. My husband says it a lot actually. He says, I don't think I could do what you do.
Catherine: That's great. How do you talk to yourself then, and encourage yourself, like the mindset that Jessika tells Jessika?
Jessika: Just wondering why. Looking for context or looking for drivers.
Catherine: And do you choose a theme of the year or word of the year to guide you?
Jessika: Do you mean every year or for the past year in particular?
Catherine: Yeah, every year or in particular this year. I've only started doing a word of the year or a theme to guide me in the last, I guess four or five years. This year it's intentional, and last year was next level. The year before that was audacious. So I've had a few years, and then there was another year before that, but those sorts of things.
And so intention was in my mind for all the things that I do now. I just wondered if you had something similar that guides you.
Jessika: I love that you do that. I'd love to start practicing that, but no, it's not something I've done before.
Catherine: That's interesting. Cause it anchors you into whatever you do.
Is it intentional? Is this next level? What is next level in a pandemic? What does that look like? So I'd encourage you. It might be quite fun to do that next year.
I'm going to switch now to then advice for lawyers. And perhaps one thing would be the wisest thing someone's ever said to you.
And maybe the opposite side of that would be perhaps the worst piece of advice you received. So it's taking your look back a little bit, but the wisest thing someone said to you and who it was.
Jessika: From when I was very, very young, my dad would say like a broken record, say what you mean and mean what you say.
And the other thing he would say all the time is be responsible for yourself. But I think that those are more life things and they're the most important, but I think if you do those things, then it means you're probably being authentic and you'll probably be able to make authentic connections by doing that, which is life right? Connection.
Catherine: Totally. Totally. What about the other side then? Something that someone said to you that was just completely the worst advice?
Jessika: I've probably just written it off and immediately flushed it out of my mind. You hear silly things all the time. Yeah. And I just think, oh well, I don't need that and carry on.
Catherine: Knowing what you know now, is there anything you would've done differently when you were starting out? Would you, do you think, go back and do exactly the same? I know when I look back, I think sometimes I'd like to change something, but then I think the path would have changed so much. I might not be doing what I'm doing now.
How's it for you?
Jessika: I think it's been so long since I was at uni that certain things I'm probably remembering in a way that I just like to remember it. And I've probably forgotten about a lot of things that were just shaping my every day. I don't think I would change anything big, no.
Catherine: Okay, that's good.
Jessika: I’d like to tell my younger self to not worry so much. And I wasn't like the most anxious worry wart ever, but like anyone, I think it's really easy to compare yourself any time to what you are perceiving to be around you.
Catherine: I think that's so good, not worrying.
Jessika: I think it’s good motivation sometimes, but for the most part, you really don't need to worry too much.
Catherine: It's never as bad as we think it's going to be, but we don't often know at the time and we do worry, but it's a wasted piece of energy, isn't it, to be worrying. But looking back, we know that wasn't necessary. So trying not to worry is a really good thing. And it's probably good advice for young lawyers and students coming up the ranks.
Do you have any other advice for them who are listening? And now that I know a lot of my subscribers and listeners are also young lawyers or law students and even non law students who are listening in. Any pieces of advice you would like to give them?
Jessika: Self-reflection is really important.
Knowing when you need to take a bit of time to recalibrate, I think will always set yourself in good stead and whatever time you need is exactly how much you should take. Yeah. I guess just don't feel rushed by anyone else's agenda is one way to put it.
Catherine: Yeah.
Jessika: It’s okay to be different.
Catherine: It's okay to be different and stand out and be yourself.
Be unique. Be yourself. Be your own one person that you are. And thinking about future and the law firm that you're in now, being a lawyer, the profession and law firms, what do you think lawyers and law firms should be focusing on from now? Is it more sort of client centric? Is it doing things differently?
What kinds of things are coming up for you to think about law firms and yourself as a lawyer in the future?
Jessika: Continuing to embrace what COVID has shown us is completely possible, which is that we can collaborate regardless of location and time of day. And it just, this new sort of virtual world, it lets us mix so many more things than I think it would have occurred to many of us to do before.
So that's really exciting.
Catherine: Is there anything that you’re looking forward to in the coming year in particular?
Jessika: Yes, absolutely. Travelling again.
Catherine: Traveling again. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And would you be doing that for work ordinarily with your M&A expertise? Would that take you outside of Japan or you're talking about traveling for personal and for sort of relaxation purposes?
Jessika: It's definitely the personal that I'm looking forward to the most. Yeah. I would like to say that my work would see me traveling a bit. I haven't really gotten to test that since I joined. But yeah, maybe it will.
Catherine: Maybe it will. Yeah. Throw that to the universe. See what happens? Well Jessika, is there anything we didn't cover today that you wanted to mention or anything you did talk about, but you'd like to reemphasize?
Jessika: Maybe just the self-reflection point, actually. Having this talk with you, Catherine, is a really nice trigger for me to do that myself. And yeah, I've really appreciated the opportunity to do that.
Catherine: It’s good to reflect back isn’t it?
Jessika: Yeah, no. Thinking back on my uni days, isn't something that I do every day. So actually it helped me remember some things I haven't thought about.
Catherine: And it's also, I've found with some of our other guests, is that they get back in touch with the uni friends, or their uni friends hear this when they post the podcast on their social media and they get back in touch, and you might even reconnect again with Dr Lucy Craddock and others, that senior associate, who's now a partner. It's a really nice chance to say, Hey! I've really been thinking about you a little bit and just wanted to touch base. It seems a few people who've been doing that. So I think that's one of the lovely things about a podcast is that it does bring out those lovely memories you've got and connections, and you can take those further.
All right. We're getting to the end and I did want to finish up with the final super six, which is a quick fire round of six, or it might be only five today, actually Jessika, to wind up the interview. So the first question is if I was to give you a million yen in Japanese cash, presuming it's all okay to give you that, where in Japan would you spend it, at your favorite store or destination or some other activity?
Jessika: Actually, I would probably spend it on myself, and currently my husband and I are looking at buying a car so that we can do some more road trips around Japan.
Catherine: Perfect. You’d get some change out of that, wouldn't you, out of a million yen?
Jessika: Absolutely. Which we can use on our road trips.
Catherine: It sounds very good. That's a great thing. I love traveling. Can you share a podcast or a book that you've been listening to, reading, and maybe it's something that you've already read in the last year or recently that you would recommend to everybody?
Jessika: It's a big book actually. And it's one that I read probably when I was at uni. I actually started listening to it on Audible. It's called Foundation. It's a book by Isaac Asimov. It's a SciFi series. And actually the reason I decided to start listening to it, it's because it's coming out as a TV show right now that my husband and I have been watching and really enjoying.
Yeah, but we both love SciFi. And that's a really great book that I forgot how much I loved. So I've started listening to that again.
Catherine: Isn’t that great? You can start to hear it again. In a different format, you can relive the book. That’s great. And also as an activity with your husband, I think that's fantastic. Wow. Okay. Next question.
Is there a famous person or celebrity you would love to meet or have already met?
Jessika: I'd love meeting someone like Larry David. I really like his show, Curb your Enthusiasm, which has also just started again. And it's another thing that my husband and I enjoy watching together when we wind down in the evening.
Sometimes it's one of the things that we might do is watch a show like that.
Catherine: I don't know that one I'll have to put, I've popped it down on a piece of paper.
Jessika: He was one of the co-writers of Seinfeld.
Catherine: Oh, okay. Wow. That's nice. Are you spending a lot of time, togetherness is a good thing, and spending it in lovely ways that we probably couldn't have done had all of this not been happening.
I'm going to jump to then, what's on your bedside cabinet?
Jessika: Nothing unusual, chargers, a lamp, water bottle. Yeah. Some hair ties, pretty boring.
Catherine: And not a framed photo of anybody there? No?
Jessika: We recently got one of those digital photo frames that actually, I used to think I'm never going to get one of those, but I did because my husband and I have so many photos of each other in our travels from the last like 10 plus years that we just don't look at very often, unless they're on something like that.
Catherine: That's a jolly great idea. Isn't it? Especially to remind us of what we did in the past with our travels and fun things and watching those would make, remember when we did this, remember when you did that. So I think that's a lovely idea. And the last question is something about you that others do not know.
Jessika: This is something a lot of people don't know because it only happened really recently. But we adopted a dog in our house about two weeks ago.
Catherine: Yay. Tell us about your dog.
Jessika: Yeah, she's a white toy poodle and we've started calling her Juju. She came to us with the name Vanilla chan but it didn't feel very us. So she's Juju with us.
Catherine: Oh, Juju. How did you come up with that?
Jessika: No particular reason. She's a very cute dog. So she needed a cute name.
Catherine: Yeah. That is cute. Well done. Oh, that's so nice. What a lovely thing. I think it's really great having a pet around you and it's wonderful to adopt one as well. That's really great. Well Jessika, we have come to the end.
It's been so lovely having you share your story and your tips and nuggets of advice there. It was really great to connect with you in this way. Thank you so much.
Jessika: Thank you, Catherine. It's been really nice.
Catherine: And so how can people who are listening in get connected with you? Would that be on LinkedIn?
Jessika: Yes, I'm on LinkedIn. Please feel free to message me anytime on that.
Catherine: We will put that in the show notes. So anyone who's interested in connecting with you and learning more from you can reach out to you there?
Jessika: Yes, absolutely.
Catherine: Fantastic. All right. I'd love to, not love to, but I do have to finish up there.
We've had a fantastic conversation with so many different things going on, and I'm so grateful for you for coming on and being my sixth lawyer extraordinaire guest in season two. And I want to thank you for your honesty, especially for being someone in the legal profession who's really an inspiration to others.
How to build a career steadily and purposefully, I think, on purpose, you've been doing that, but also taking opportunities. And it's been really great for you to share your stories with listeners here and subscribers. So for my listeners and subscribers do continue to listen to this episode, share it with others.
Drop a short review for us too, because that does help us to get heard and seen by many other people. Or you can actually jump over to my webpage and leave me a voicemail. And I love hearing your actual voice telling me about the guest and what you enjoyed about our chat. So that's it. Thank you very much, everyone.
I do hope you can share the story of another lawyer extraordinaire who is living her best life. And so that's all for now. See you on the next episode. Cheers, kampai and bye for now.
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Lawyer on Air was the winner of the Bronze Award in the “Best Podcast by a Kiwi Abroad Category” in the New Zealand Podcast Awards 2021.
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