S2 Episode Seven: Leading the way in legal tech adoption with Angela Yuen
Full transcript follows.
If you have wondered how to make use of more legal tech for the benefit of the people and the organisation you work for, my guest Angela Yuen opens a door for us into the world of one of the biggest energy companies in Japan. Angela, a powerhouse herself, is a tireless supporter of women in law and championing young professionals to be the best they can be.
If you enjoyed this episode and it inspired you in some way, we’d love to hear about it and know your biggest takeaway. Head over to Apple Podcasts to leave a review and we’d love it if you would leave us a message here!
In this episode you’ll hear:
How Angela came to be studying law in Australia after leaving her home country with her family at age nine
Why Angela decided not to go into litigation and chose corporate law
Her experience as a lawyer working in minerals and mining law in Australia
How Angela made the role of Deputy General Counsel happen for her at a large energy organisation
From flying blind to using technology to gather data and metrics to manage the flow of matters in the legal team
Angela’s experience with bullying and harassment and the importance of allies and mentors
Her favourite book and other fun facts
About Angela
Angela Yuen is Deputy General Counsel of JERA Co., Inc., the largest power generation company in Japan and one of the largest power producers in the world. Born and raised in Hong Kong, Angela studied and trained in Australia before qualifying as a Solicitor of the Supreme Court of Queensland and the High Court of Australia in 2000. She moved to Japan out of a sense of adventure and professional curiosity, which took her to the legal departments of two major Japanese trading companies, Sojitz Corporation and Mitsubishi Corporation. Her career then led her to a global gold mining major headquartered in Melbourne and a brief stint in Seoul before returning to Tokyo in 2015 and joining Allen & Overy. Angela oversees JERA’s Legal Group which advises the Board of Directors and leadership team and provides strategic legal support to JERA’s domestic and international businesses spanning the entire energy value chain. She is passionate about supporting bold young professional females to maximize their leadership potential and attain their highest professional goals. She has 3 young children and believes that women can have it all – a fulfilling career and a healthy family.
Connect with Angela
LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/hoyanyuen
Links
Star of Greece: https://starofgreece.com.au/
The Truths we Hold, Kamala Harris: https://www.amazon.co.jp/TRUTHS-WE-HOLD-KAMALA-HARRIS/dp/0525560718
Connect with Catherine
Linked In https://www.linkedin.com/in/oconnellcatherine/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lawyeronair
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/catherine.oconnell.148
Twitter: https://twitter.com/oconnelllawyer
Transcript
Catherine: Hi, everyone. Welcome to the seventh episode in Season Two of Lawyer on Air. I'm Catherine O'Connell. Today, I am joined by Angela Yuen. Angela is based in Tokyo and she is the Deputy General Counsel for the award-winning legal group of JERA Co Limited. JERA is the largest power generation company and largest LNG buyer in the world.
JERA's business consists of the entire energy value chain and was created just six years ago in April 2015, by two of Japan's largest electrical utilities; GB Electric, and Tokyo Electric. Angela is a corporate and international law specialist and is skilled at providing commercially focused and outcome driven, legal support and advice.
She collaborates across multidisciplinary project teams to achieve business objectives all the while building trust and fostering relationships at all levels, across business functions and operations. Born and raised in Hong Kong. Angela studied in Australia at Queensland University of Technology to attain her BA in law and arts with honors in the year 2000. She was admitted as a solicitor of the Supreme court of Queensland and the high court of Australia in the same year.
She is a graduate of the University of Melbourne, Melbourne business school in Australia with a business administration and management qualification, which she obtained in 2012. Angela moved to Japan out of a sense of adventure and professional curiosity she says. And so I want to delve into that part of Angela's journey a little bit more in our conversation today.
When Angela came to Japan, she started in in-house legal roles in the legal departments of two major and iconic Japanese trading houses, Sojitz Corporation and Mitsubishi Corporation. Her career then led her to global gold mining major Newcrest Mining, headquartered in Melbourne. And after a brief stint in Seoul, Korea, she returned to Tokyo in 2015, where she joined the law firm of Allen & Overy.
In her current role, Angela oversees JERA’s legal group, which advises the board of directors and leadership team and provides strategic legal support to JERA's domestic and international businesses spanning the entire energy value chain. In 2020 Angela's legal group won the ALB law awards as the innovative in-house team of the year.
Angela speaks English, Japanese, and Cantonese, and she is passionate about supporting bold young female professionals to maximize their potential in leadership and to attain their highest professional goals. She has three gorgeous young children and believes that women can have it all, a fulfilling career and a healthy family.
She excels as a lawyer extraordinaire while giving so much time to Women in Law Japan, and as a mentor to others. Angela is indeed a wonderful example to listeners of the podcast of believing that you can have it all as a woman. And she really lives that mantra, having a fulfilling career and a healthy family. I'm really and truly pleased to bring you Angela as my guest today.
Angela, welcome to the show.
Angela: Thank you very much for the intro and I'm delighted and very honored to be invited on your award winning podcast. So I must start by saying congratulations to both you and your producer, Jayne, for your very recent award at the New Zealand podcast awards in the category of Best Podcast by a Kiwi Abroad. I think it is a truly amazing achievement when you've really only rolled out a little over a dozen episodes in your Season Two. So a huge congratulations. Well done.
Catherine: Oh Angela, thank you so much. That was unexpected that you would say that. I really appreciate it. And you know, Jayne and I are an amazing team together.
I absolutely love, and I'm going inverted commas around working together, cause it doesn't even feel like work. It's such joy and we have a great time together. And I'm so thankful for you for saying that. That's really nice to start the conversation with.
Angela: My pleasure.
Catherine: Thank you. And so today we're going to be talking about your wonderful career path, your work in Australia and Japan, and there's some part there that you had in Korea as well, and your current deputy general counsel role. I'm also interested in how the legal team at JERA is pioneering legal operations in Japan, and you know, of course this award that you also won. And then, because you're a passionate supporter of young professionals, I'd also love you to share your guidance for young lawyers and young professional females and how they can be bold and stride confidently along with their career path.
So how does all of that sound?
Angela: Fabulous.
Catherine: Okay. Well, today we are talking online, and I do hope we can meet up in person very soon, but if we do, where would that be Angela? Do you have a favorite wine bar or cafe or restaurant you love to go to? And what would you normally choose off the menu as your beverage of the day?
Angela: Well, there actually isn't anywhere in Tokyo that comes to mind, that will quite fit the criteria. And because I would love somewhere with an uninterrupted view of the ocean and endless bottles of champagne, to sit down with you, Catherine. But perhaps one place that I've always wanted to go back to is a little restaurant which is still perched on a cliff in South Australia, just south of Adelaide.
And it's called the Star of Greece, and my husband and I stopped there for dinner many years ago when we were touring the wine regions in South Australia. And just the images and the view from the restaurant, looking out across St. Vincent's Bay towards Kangaroo Island, is an image that has always stayed with me.
Catherine: Oh, it sounds amazing. It really does. I think there are some places in Japan where we can get a sea view. But you've got me, immediately my mind is going to South Australia because I have gorgeous friends who live there. And I'm thinking about that now. I want to go away and have a look at that. It sounds great. So it’s Greek food? The Star of Greece is Greek food?
Angela: No, actually it's modern Australian but the name is very pretty and that's why I remember it.
Catherine: Oh, it sounds wonderful. Well, I would love to go there maybe on my next journey to South Australia. I will put that in as a place to go to. Thank you so much. And I was also trying to think too, Angela, about when I first met you.
And probably I heard about you a lot earlier than when I met you. I think you were working at Sojitz in around 2006 to 2008, right?
Angela: Yes.
Catherine: Yes. And I was working, I think, at that time, or voluntarily at the Foreign Women Lawyers Association. But I think it might've been actually after that, when you were at Mitsubishi Corporation, but I was also at Mitsubishi sister city company, or not sister city company, the sister company of Mitsubishi motors.
And I think that's when I may have heard about you first. I was on secondment from Hogan Lovells. And I think you were at Mitsubishi Corporation as well, maybe with one of Hogan Lovells secondees.
Angela: Yes. That would be Simon. Simon Barrett, perhaps?
Catherine: Yeah, it was Simon. That's right. Where is Simon? I have to call out to him and tag him on this one, when we send it out into the universe.
Angela: Working from Shimoda, I understand. We keep in touch.
Catherine: Oh, great. I'll have to catch up with them. Thank you. But I think we didn't actually meet then, but I've heard about you over the years. And I think really the first time meeting you in person, or meeting you like we are now on the internet, would be Women in Law Japan.
Angela: Absolutely right.
Catherine: Right? So I've known about you for a very long time, but actually getting to work with you in the way that we are now, it's really just been this year. And you're in the middle of organizing a big panel event for Women in Law Japan, co-hosting with the Japan in-house counsel network on December the 16th, right?
So thank you so much for being such a great supporter of also this podcast out there on the network. You've been doing that a lot and I'm looking forward to this event that we're going to be doing together in December. So thank you so much. It's really amazing working with you.
Angela: No, the pleasure's all mine.
I've always been very impressed. And again, of course your reputation precedes you and you seem to have, you just seem to be everywhere, know everybody. And so when I realized that you were presiding over the Women in Law Japan this year, I sort of reached out and through some connections, managed to jump on board.
Catherine: Oh, that's so exciting. I'm really, you're starting off my week very, very nicely. So much. Well, we're going to delve into your career very shortly, but I do want to go back a little bit to your early days, which must be when you were in Hong Kong. Do you remember what you wanted to be when you were a child?
Angela: I think like every little girl I wanted to be a teacher.
Catherine: Yes. Yes. So did I. After being an air hostess, it was a teacher. Well, okay. So you were in Hong Kong for how long before you came to Australia?
Angela: I was nine when my family migrated to Queensland.
Catherine: Oh, I see. And was that just a decision from the family through your mum and dad, or what happened to bring you to Australia?
Angela: Actually, it was a decision by mum and dad, as you know, there was a handover from Britain back to China coming up. And my father actually survived the cultural revolution and had been a refugee in China. So the fact that Hong Kong was going to be handed back over to China really made him fear for our future, the family, the future of his children, because it's very difficult for him to get an education in China. So we had an auntie and an uncle in Australia at the time and they were kind enough to sponsor us over.
Catherine: Oh, I see. Thank you for sharing that. It's such a terrible time in your life then, I think, uplifting from Hong Kong to come to Australia. When did the aspect of law come into it, did any of that background have an impact on you wanting to study law?
Angela: Looking back, I mean, there are a number of factors. I think we are a fairly traditional family and I have an older brother. When we migrated to Australia my parents were pretty much unskilled workers, even though my father previously held a high up managerial position in a corporate in Hong Kong. But because of the lack of English language capability, we fell into what a lot of immigrants do, which is have a family run Chinese takeaway.
And that sustained our family, put us through school, high school. And so I think there was a lot of pressure I put on myself to excel and to do well. And even if I had wanted to be a journalist, which was something I did aspire to, you know, it’s not something that pays well is what I'm told.
And my brother and my sister both actually are in the medical field. And I'm very much the black sheep of the family. I did fall a little bit into a career in law. If I look back, or if I ask my mother, she thinks that I was always going to be a lawyer because I had a very, very strong sense of injustice or justice, even from a young age. And I had been wrongly accused of spilling some medicine and I never stopped reminding my mum that I did not do it.
Catherine: Oh, where was that? Spilling the medicine?
Angela: In Hong Kong.
Catherine: Really?
Angela: In the kitchen. Yes. Very vivid memories.
Catherine: Was that your mother accusing you of that?
Angela: Yes.
Catherine: Goodness. How amazing that stuck with you as a memory?
Yeah. Wow, I can say those early days with your parents doing all they could, to raise you and working so hard to put you through your schooling, that that must have had a massive impact on you.
Angela: It is quite defining, I think, also because when we had a Chinese takeaway, there's actually a BBC documentary made on the generation of children who served behind the counters at family run Chinese takeaways, because every day we went to school and after school we would go to the takeaway, the family business, and we would help out by taking orders.
And then in between working, taking orders, we would do our homework, or supervise my sister doing her homework. And so we, I think I just had, from a very early age, working hard instilled in us. And I did in high school become quite interested in legal studies and in philosophy and geography.
But basically anything that wasn't science and maths, unfortunately they were the subjects that we were always counseled to do, to get a good score to get into university. But I was fortunate and I did manage to get through a bachelor of law and arts, majoring in justice studies and majoring in security and intelligence in my arts degree.
Catherine: Wow, and that was at Queensland University of Technology?
Angela: That's right. And I did volunteer actually at legal aid during those early years of law school. And I became a little bit disillusioned because I was very interested in the criminal justice system and criminal law, but there was just a lot of sadness in the criminal justice system.
And I realized I don't have the stomach in that, dealing with that day in, day out.
Catherine: Yeah, I'm hearing you, keep going.
Angela: Like a lot of law students, I did become seduced by the power suits and mega-deals and cross over to the dark side of big law. And I was also actually really attracted to the prospects of business travel and, you know, the potential for an international career in law.
Catherine: Wow. Oh my goodness. Seduced. Hmm. I'm going to go back to that, but I also wanted to go back to the, you said black sheep. Do you mean that in comparison to your brother and sister who are in medicine?
Angela: That's right.
Catherine: Oh, okay. How do you feel about that now? Do you think you're a black sheep now?
Angela: Well, um… yes?
Catherine: I don't think you are, but do you think you are?
Angela: Yeah, I think we're just very different people with very different interests.
Catherine: Goodness me. Well, you’re talking about this, the original and initial areas of law where you're working straight after you came out of law school, and that was at Clayton UTZ, correct?
Angela: Correct.
Catherine: When you're talking about the seduction into big law, is that where you mean the big law started for you?
Angela: Yes, that's right. I started there as a winter clerk and was fortunate enough to be invited back to take on a part-time paralegal role. And so I, through the last two years of my law degree I worked part-time, and Clayton UTZ at the time was the biggest law firm definitely in Queensland, and one of the top four in Australia.
And I started my career in the energy and resource sector because Queensland, very much Australia, was at the beginning of the mining boom. And I loved putting on a hard hat and going down underground and touring refineries and power plants.
Catherine: Oh my goodness. Is that what you did?
Angela: Yes. You know, sitting down with the geologists and engineers or environmental scientists, to really understand the mine design or augmentation plans.
I loved project development. And there's just real satisfaction, I've found, in working with a large project team to build something together. You know, through the various roles that followed in my career, I was able to build on those skills and my love for projects and project development.
Catherine: Wow. But did you decide to go into that area? Did you know that you wanted to be in that energy and minerals area?
Angela: Yes and no. I did a few rotations. And I knew I wasn't a litigator and the compliance work didn't appeal to me. And so my third rotation was in energy and resources. And at the time, as mentioned, it was Australia's mining boom, and Queensland was very resource rich and coal was not a four letter dirty word then.
And so I was very lucky to be able to score a position in that team because there was a lot of growth, a lot of business there.
Catherine: Right. So it was a hot area to be in.
Angela: Definitely.
Catherine: And when you were in that rotation, it really appealed to you, out of the three that you'd been in. So you sort of went to that area then.
Angela: Yes, absolutely. I mean, not only was I interested in, I had, you know, as a young lawyer, pretty big ambitions. And I saw that a career in this booming area was the fastest route to promotion and progression. So I went with it.
Catherine: Wow. That's amazing. And you work, you went down into the mines. I mean, I've got experience in Japanese companies going to the factory floor and seeing things there and donning the factory outfits.
But I think you've just taken it to a higher level by wearing a hardhat and going down into mines. That would freak me out. How did you feel about that? The first time you went down? Was it a bit apprehensive, but once you got there, it was exciting to be speaking with the geologists, et cetera?
Angela: That's exactly right. And it is very scary going underground. It's pitch black. It's very, very hot. And then also, you know, it's just huge. These mines are huge, unimaginably big. And, you know, you've got massive trucks going underground and then going along the way, you see capsules, they're survival capsules.
So if anything ever happened, you go in there and there's oxygen and their supply. So that's quite confronting as well.
Catherine: Yes. I’d say quite daunting and you know that, well, obviously they're prepared for it, but also that something might happen when you're down there, but you're with people all the time, correct?
Angela: That’s right.
Catherine: What did that teach you though? About life in general and the fragility of everything? I mean, you're in the middle of somewhere that's massive, but also anything could happen at any time. Did that bring you sort of skills to the way that you worked?
Angela: At all times I felt very, very safe. Because if you've ever worked for any mining company, safety is number one and the focus is always about safety.
Even in the corporate office, you know, it's just instilled in you. Walking down the stairs, you have to hold the railings, et cetera. So I think it's great training,
Catherine: Great training. Wow. That's something about you I did not know.
Angela: Actually one thing I want to share about going underground, as you know, I worked for a gold mining company. And I always imagined before going down a gold mine, that you would see veins of gold in the walls, but actually you can't see gold at all, because gold has to be processed before you can see anything.
So all you can see is lumps and lumps of rock. So I was very disappointed when I went down a goldmine.
Catherine: Right. And you have to know which kind of rock it is that has the gold contained within it. Right? So that's the skill I imagine. Oh my goodness. But it just sort of, as a metaphor for life in a way, that some of the things that we can't see that are sparkling underneath are actually covered by perhaps a darker, harder material.
So it could be something there to think about actually, for later.
Angela: Good one.
Catherine: Is there someone around this time, or anybody around this time, that's guiding you through the law, as you're moving through this practice at the firm?
Angela: Actually no. You know, I've listened to many of your podcasts and I've always been very inspired by these amazing women who had mentors.
I didn't really have anyone guiding me through my career. I was just very tunnel visioned on succeeding and that meant partnership, it meant a big house, a fancy car. And I didn't really have anybody who looked out for me from a mental wellbeing, and also to help me, maybe reassess my goals at different stages of my career.
Catherine: So you’re really just driving towards what you thought was the ultimate pinnacle, to be a partner. But you didn't go through to the partner level, right? You made a change in your life to this travel and coming to Japan. And I'm just fascinated because if you're thinking about going to partnership and then suddenly, what seems like sudden, but you can tell me, you're coming over to Japan.
You're diving off the diving board from Australia into the pool of opportunity into Japan. Tell us about this part of your journey, Angela.
Angela: Okay. Actually it was out of a sense of adventure. So what happened was that after a couple of years, about five years at Clayton UTZ working full time, so I had that under my belt. I wanted to go abroad.
Traditionally, a lot of Aussie lawyers take their careers to the UK, but I've always preferred to walk the road less traveled and just like the traveler in Robert Frost’s poem, it has made a huge difference for me. I can't imagine a different path now. I really wanted international experience that would distinguish me in the crowd.
And so I actually wanted to go back to Hong Kong where I was born, but I never actually made it to Hong Kong because of a little competitive wager that I had with my then boyfriend and now husband. We were both keen to go abroad and he wanted to come to Japan because he speaks Japanese. So we agreed on whoever scored a job first would decide our destination.
So no prizes guessing who won that wager.
Catherine: That's so funny. It is very funny because you just came because he won the wager and he chose Japan.
Angela: Yes. And, I'd never been to Japan. Didn't really speak any Japanese. I had high school Japanese. But it's been tremendous and never looked back.
Catherine: Wow, that was one of my questions for you is where you picked up your Japanese, but you had that in school?
Angela: Right. I had a couple of years of Japanese studies.
Catherine: Right. So how did, when he won the wager, how did you feel? And what did you think? What was your first thought? Oh, my goodness, I'm going to Japan? Or was it, oh, this is exciting? What'd you think?
Angela: Well, I wasn't impressed that I lost, but other than that, I was very excited about coming to Japan.
I love exploring new countries. So I also thought that at some stage we would also then make a move to Hong Kong. And I think it’s geographically and professionally, easy to transition to.
Catherine: Sure. Yeah. So you came to Japan. Did you have the role at Sojitz before you came here? Or did you end up looking for a role when you came to Japan?
Angela: I did have the role when we landed. I didn't have any connections to Japan, but one of the partners that my now husband worked for, was able to reach out to his network in Japan and secure that secondment, or an interview for a secondment, at Sojitz for me.
Catherine: Wow. That's amazing. So your husband is a lawyer as well?
Angela: He is.
Catherine: Ah, okay. That's good. Okay. So you came here in 2006 to take up that role. Was that just a two year role then? Or were you, was it just open-ended and you took it for two years?
Angela: I think it was one year and I asked to stay another year and then the firm was basically like, well, you come back or you will lose your position with us.
Catherine: So you made the decision to stay on then with your husband here?
Angela: That's right.
Catherine: Right. That's a big decision. And what surprised you then about being in Japan at that time and working in Japan? Were there some things that you can remember at that time that were quite interesting for you?
Angela: Just a complete difference in culture.
It was my first corporate role, and I know that you've also been at some very traditional Japanese companies, Catherine. At Sojitz the bells, you know, the morning bells, the lunch bells, afternoon bells, cracked me up for a long time.
Catherine: Yeah. And I mean, you just, they just control life in Japan. If you think about it, because you still hear them when you're working from home, you can still hear the five o'clock bell go out in the neighborhood. Right? That it's time to knock off work everybody, it's five o'clock.
Angela: That's right.
Catherine: So you still hear that. But Sojitz is a massive trading company formed out of two companies that were two traditional Japanese companies that had been around with long, long histories.
So what would you say then, Angela, is one of the key successes for working in a big Japanese company like Sojitz? Any tips you can share? Because I think a lot of people would be thinking, gosh, I'd love to work in one of those massive companies. And I know you got the introduction into the company, but staying there two years does require you to have a bit of success in the way that you work.
So tell us about that. Any key elements you can think of from your experience for success in working in a Japanese company?
Angela: Right. Actually, it's interesting you mentioned that Sojitz's been a merger of two of the oldest Japanese trading companies. Cause it seems to be a bit of a repeating pattern in my career. With Newcrest, when I joined, recently had acquired a smaller player to become the second largest gold mining company in the world. And of course, JERA is a joint venture between TEPCO and Chubu.
I think that one of the things about working in a Japanese corporation is always to be aware of the culture.
It's defines a lot about the people, the processes, and when you're working in a company that is so steeped in tradition and brings two sets of traditions, that can be hard to navigate. So I've always been humble and listening and understanding about why things might be different to what you might expect them to be.
But also not being afraid to speak up. Of course, respectfully question why something is the way they are. It is very important, I think, not to just follow what are the steps in front of you, to follow processes blindly, to question, because you're there to bring value, to contribute and not a paper pusher. Lawyers are not, certainly corporate lawyers are meant to be strategic partners in my view to the business.
And that means understanding the business, understanding the culture of the company, understanding the business strategies of that company. And it often starts with looking inwards at the people and the history of the organization.
Catherine: I guess, between the two companies; Nissho Iwai and Nichimen that there were different cultures, even within the same trading company history. Right?
So there would be a different culture for both of those and people who had worked in each of the companies, now in the merged and renamed companies, still brought with them their own culture from that previous company they were in. I feel that was probably the same when Hogan Lovells was made from Lovells, and Hogan and Hartson, and we used to have, for the first year or so, there was are you legacy Hogan Hartson, are you legacy Lovells, which one are you?
Did you find that that was a little tricky for people to get to wearing the brand new suit of the new company and still having the older clothes of the older companies?
Angela: Absolutely. I think, Catherine, you've hit the nail on the head. It could often be sensitive, navigating the differences, because each side the people would feel that they brought the better deal to the table, you know, because that's what they believed in. But the new leadership is also very important.
And to remind ourselves that we're not the, to be forward-looking and that we have to create our own path. And that we're a different organization now, and that we're free to create our own path, and not be bound by the previous cultures.
Catherine: Yeah, it's a release. So you can actually, it's actually a gift to you to be starting on the new pathway, and some embrace that and others find that quite hard, but it's really interesting that you say that.
Yeah. And then you moved to Mitsubishi corporation, another iconic brand name in Japan and obviously globally. And you were there as senior legal counsel for three years. And although I've been saying these are both trading companies roles, it seems to me that you did a much bigger role at Mitsubishi, where you were the primary foreign legal advisor for two of their eight global business units.
And so you were doing a massive stretch, I think, in this particular role. How did you find that role then, leaping from Sojitz, and what motivated you to interview with them and say yes to them and go and work for them?
Angela: I guess I got a little bit restless at Sojitz and I wanted to be on the side of the table that was taking the controlling stake.
And so I looked for a bigger opportunity. And absolutely, the three years I had with Mitsubishi corporation was the highlight of my career. The structure of the legal teams are a little bit different. Also Mitsubishi is a much larger corporation, but there was a lot more independence and ability to work closer with the business teams.
I traveled a lot. I was embedded in the projects teams. I mean, I was seated in the legal team, but I traveled. I would travel for weeks on end with the project teams flying around the world, negotiating projects with contractors, with partners and advisors. And also, I guess the projects were a little bit bigger and sexier.
And I think I was just, because of the general manager that I worked with and the trust that he put in me, I was also given the role of, you know, mentoring younger team members. And that was very fulfilling for me.
Catherine: How many were in that team and how many did you mentor?
Angela: In the legal team at the time, it was easily over 50, but, you know, I worked in probably only six to eight under a general manager.
And so basically anyone who I was, on any project there were always two of us and there will be a junior and me. So I wasn't specifically assigned to mentor anybody in specific, but it was just any junior that worked with me on a project. I would try to help them learn about contracts and to think commercially.
Catherine: Are you still in contact with those mentees?
Angela: A few.
Catherine: Yeah. That's the whole thing about mentoring actually is keeping in touch like that. But wow, what a high flying job that was to be traveling around the world and things like that. Did you find that role, Angela, through recruitment companies in Japan, which is a quite typical way to find a job here for people who are listening, but is that how you went about it? Or was it also an introduction through friends, which is another way that people find work in Tokyo and in Japan?
Angela: It was, it was through my network.
Catherine: Right. How excellent. Goodness me. That's really amazing. And so you were there for how many years?
Angela: About three years all up.
Catherine: And it was the highlight of your career?
Angela: It was so much fun.
Catherine: Yeah, you had a lot of fun. And I think I also had a lot of fun when I was at Mitsubishi Motors.
Maybe there's something about their culture. We had a lot of people working at Mitsubishi Motors who were from Mitsubishi Corporation and from Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, but the whole way that they work just seemed very buoyant and interesting and exciting. And everyone seemed very much into what they were doing.
They liked being at work, which I felt very much was obvious in Mitsubishi compared to other companies that I worked in. So you've made me recall that as well. Is that how it was for you? You sort of enjoyed all of that because the people were enjoying their work as well?
Angela: Absolutely. I think everybody who worked for Mitsubishi who I met, not only were tremendously talented and smart, they were also very proud of being part of Mitsubishi. And I think that's important.
At Sojitz too. I keep in touch with a lot of people. They are also very, very clever people who could handle a lot, and dealt with a lot, and taught me a lot. But I think what stuck with me with Mitsubishi was their reach globally and how everybody was so multilingual and talented.
Catherine: Yeah, I can see, and I understand fully. I'd love to go further into that, but I want to take you over again from where you were at Mitsubishi, because you decided to leave there in 2011, I believe, and come back to Melbourne. That must have been quite a hard decision?
Angela: It was actually, but because my husband at the time was working for Skadden's and I was traveling for the better part of the year outside of Japan, we wanted to have a change of pace. And actually the 2011 Fukushima event sort of accelerated that decision.
Catherine: Yeah, I understand that. And that's where quite a few people I know, especially, well now I know you, myself, also made critical decisions about life and about what matters in that year of 2011, we will never forget it.
So you decided to come back to your home roots for a while, I call Melbourne your home roots, because it's part of Australia. Come back here, I should say there. I feel like I'm in Melbourne now. You've got me thinking about Australia and looking at the sea. So you came back and is this where you went to the gold mining company?
Angela: That's right.
Catherine: So how long were you there for?
Angela: I was there for about three years again all up, which was a great period to learn a completely new industry. And the gold mining and international gold market is quite different to coal, and oil and gas.
Catherine: I see. So what were your learnings there?
And did you really enjoy that role? Was that an in-house legal counsel role?
Angela: It was an in-house legal counsel role.
Catherine: Is that where the Korea part ties in as well? Or is that separate again? Because you go to Korea or to Seoul before you come back to Tokyo again. Right? Am I getting your pathway, right?
Angela: That's right. That's correct. Korea was a bit of a career break. I had a couple of years of a career break where I was honing the skillset called motherhood.
Catherine: There we go. Tell me about that. And that is a massive skill set that you need as well. So that was when you were, while you were back in Melbourne?
Angela: Yes. Yeah. And then also partly in Korea.
Catherine: And partly in Korea too. Gosh. How did you get to Korea? Was that also with your husband's work?
Angela: That was with his work. He was assigned there for a one year secondment with the Exchange Bank of Korea.
Catherine: Right. Was that a coin, it wasn't a coin toss? That was an actual…
Angela: No, that was me letting him leave for a little bit.
Catherine: Okay. And you went with him at that point too?
Angela: That's right.
Catherine: And you started your family at that stage?
Angela: We started our family in Melbourne.
Catherine: Oh, okay. So you took the children, or one or two with you?
Angela: One. Yes.
Catherine: One, okay. Wow. My goodness. So you managed to take a child to another country and work there for a year. Well, worked there as a mother for a year, while you're supporting your husband, correct?
Angela: Correct.
Catherine: Yeah. Okay. And then you lead yourself again, back to Japan. What happens that you get this Japan role again? Because you came back to work, you came back to work in Tokyo at Allen & Overy.
Angela: I think we both really missed Japan and the caliber of the work.
Catherine: Right. And once it's in your blood, you can't really get rid of Japan, can you?
Angela: No, exactly.
Catherine: So you both look for roles here then, did you?
Angela: We did. Well, actually my husband was able to transfer his role from Ashurst, he basically just asked to return to Tokyo and they made that happen.
Catherine: How did you get your role then? Did you find that after you arrived or were you also searching whilst you were still either in Seoul or back in Melbourne?
Angela: I was actually searching even in Korea, but it was very difficult in Korea because we had a clock on our time there. And also because they mainly wanted US qualified lawyers. So when we came back to Japan, and I was very keen to get back to work, it was quite scary actually, after having taken almost two years, perhaps, off to try to get back into the workforce.
And it was an opportunity though, to reassess whether I want to pivot into something else, go back to private practice or go to a completely different industry. And I've reached out to my network and gradually and eventually I found a role at Allen & Overy was seconded to JERA, which has been, which was a really good fit for me.
Catherine: Right. So that's where it came in. The secondment to JERA then got you your sort of introduction, the door opening to JERA. I was wondering why you went back to private practice and to what you called earlier, the dark side. So that's why it sort of led you to JERA. Did you know that the secondment to JERA was coming up before you went to Allen & Overy?
Angela: I did.
Catherine: Ah, okay. So that's very much like when I joined Hogan Lovells, I knew that I was on my way to secondment to Mitsubishi Motors. So that's interesting, really interesting. And so you worked there again for another two or three years and then did JERA invite you to come and work with them full time?
Angela: Yes absolutely right, I was very lucky to be invited back as a DGC and, of course I absolutely jumped at the opportunity.
Catherine: And you came in as Deputy General Counsel as your first role. You weren't any further lower down the queue. You were actually Deputy General Counsel at JERA.
Angela: No, that's the role I wanted. And that was what was offered to me.
Catherine: Really? That's amazing. How does somebody get a role like that? And how do you, free advice for others who might think, how on earth could I go into a company and secure that job at that level from the get go?
Angela: I think it would be difficult if I had not had spent two years before that, working with my GC Tagaya san and the team, and I think showing him, demonstrated how passionate I was about growing a legal team and my interest in the business and my work ethics. I think it's very hard to walk into a DGC role otherwise, but I had worked really well with the team.
I think we shared a vision for the future of the team that he would like to grow. I think that's very important to have a vision aligned.
Catherine: Do you think he was, not interviewing you, but maybe possibly interviewing you for inviting you over during the time that you were working on secondment?
Angela: Gosh. I was, again, the first secondee into JERA, because it was a very young organization and a very, very small team when I joined. There were five people.
There was the GC, two senior managers and two juniors. So since then we now have a full fledged secondee program. So I think we both just got lucky.
Catherine: Right. Well lucky, yes. Fully fledged secondee programs now in process. So that means you have other secondees coming through.
Are they coming from A&O or are they coming from other law firms?
Angela: From other law firms. In fact, we haven't had another secondee from Allen & Overy, but from a range of all the top international, as well as Japanese law firms.
Catherine: Amazing. So tell us about now your legal group and how many you manage in your team.
Angela: In the Tokyo headquarters, our total head count for the legal group is about 27 and that's the strategic legal function, which advises the business globally and domestically on all of JERA's business, across the value chain, as well as our compliance and governance function.
Catherine: So you've worked with all of the departments, all the other departments in JERA across all of the operations?
Angela: Absolutely, all of the departments as well as functions. So we would also advise our tax or our IT teams.
Catherine: I see. So you are working with various various groups and lots of different, different people across the organization. How are you managing intake of workload and demand across the business?
Because you must have quite a fair amount of demand upon you for this kind of work that you're doing.
Angela: So that's a great question. And it's something I'm very passionate about, Catherine, so I'm glad you asked about that. My experience of Japanese corporations, that they are very much steeped in tradition, and there are so many layers of decision making, and there's a lot of processes that are paper-based. And so when I joined JERA, I saw a lot of opportunities to cut out the waste and to improve processes and make things more efficient. And so that we can deliver a better service as the legal team, compliance team, and the governance team.
And I think that that's probably one of the reasons perhaps Tagaya san wanted to work with me on this pursuit of excellence and efficiency and through modernizing the legal function.
Catherine: Okay. So he just sounds like to me, like a real inspirational leader to have as a GC, and it sounds like JERA really chose somebody very significant there.
And I know, to me, you really seem to truly love your job right now. You only joined in September 2019. And gosh, that's only a few months before this Coronavirus started and upset the world. And so you've really been there for two years. Right? You've only just had two years, but you've taken on this massive pioneering transformation of the business, improving processes through legal operations.
And this is one thing I think that you at JERA are doing differently to all other legal departments that I know of around town. So you've recently embarked on this process of assessing people and processes and technology and establishing this legal operations support component for your legal group.
I've not had anyone on the podcast talk about this, or not really had the opportunity to talk to you a lot about this, but please go into it a bit, perhaps high level, but some of the big ticket items you approached and how you went about this, because it must've been… when I think about it and I was thinking about it before we talked today, how massive it must've been to get the business on board about all of the things that you've now put in place and are putting in place.
So go into that for us, Angela. I’m fascinated to hear a bit more of this story.
Angela: Thank you, Catherine. It is something that I'm passionate about and our team is very focused on. And perhaps if we can go to the beginning, we started making very small, incremental changes in modernizing just the way we operate our operating model and then just improving processes.
And one of the early examples is we used to have a small robot as an avatar for one of our team members, who was based in the UK for family reasons. And our team would use that avatar to connect and communicate with her daily. So she has an app on a phone that she can operate and she can swipe her screen and make the avatar move.
And so she can see across the team, you know, who's in, and her eyes light up and, you know, we can go and sit in front of her and talk to her. And that really made a huge difference in communication.
Catherine: Wow, I'm just listening here, thinking; what? You worked with an avatar who was a real person in reality, right? A real person in the UK.
So that was one of the, are you saying that's a small, incremental change you made?
Angela: Well, it's an innovation for communication.
Catherine: It’s definitely innovative, yes.
Angela: People around the company, you know, sit up and take notice because we have this little robot sitting on the table in our team, which is also important.
Catherine: Wow. You mean there was an actual robot?
Angela: Yes.
Catherine: How did you get that robot?
Angela: It's called an Orihime. It's actually a robot that's using the medical field to help a lot of, I think, aged care. And I think young children who are disconnected from society.
Catherine: Yes. I think I've actually seen it now I'm thinking about it. So how did you get that introduced? I mean, well, you're saying it's a small, incremental thing that changed, but to get a robot into an organization must have been quite a bit of a hurdle, no, to get over?
Angela: No. And because it's just a small cost, came out of our own budget, we didn't have to get any IT approval. There were no stakeholders involved. It was something that was just used exclusively by the legal team. So I think starting small is important. We were piloting a lot of ideas and then, you know, a key focus of course, is our knowledge management.
And we have a knowledge management focus group that develops precedents and playbooks. And we now even have a dedicated contract specialist. We use AI for processing our high volume, but low risk contracts, in both English and Japanese.. We continue to work really hard on standardization because we think that's really important to free up the time of our counsels to focus on, you know, the strategic goals of the business.
Catherine: Yeah. How much time do you think it's saved you then, using AI for these more, I guess, lower level you're saying, contracts in English and Japanese? Is it saving 90% of your time or would it be saving a little bit less than that?
Angela: Well, we don't know yet. But it is very important to have metrics that we can measure, but to do that, you know, you need data and that actually has been what we realized.
And the game changer for us, when we looked at our processes, we realized that we had work coming in, work going out, but there was no way to see the volume and the cadence and who was doing a lot of that work, and the complexity, the risk level, the value of that work.
Catherine: And also knowing how busy someone is, or if someone's not got enough work, how to allocate the work between people.
Angela: Absolutely. So it was like flying blind. We were just constantly busy and dealing with issues as they come. We weren't able to articulate, you know, the demand on our resources. So we couldn't then articulate a business case for increasing resources.
Catherine: So you're gathering now the data to show how the AI is helping you, but also how to manage teams. And with that data analysis, that's going to be, again, a game changer. Isn’t it?
Angela: Very much. So I think that very much team management and resource management starts with structured data.
Catherine: So how has all of this changed the way the team operates and how you communicate with others?
Angela: What we have done is introduce after, I mean, we started assessing our processes and what's really important is to understand all of our pain points and our problems and spend time evaluating those problems and defining what success looks like for the team.
And then when you've done that, then you can find a solution. The right solution for your problems. And for us, it was the, you know, implementing an intake and workflow management program. And this platform allows us to see exactly the volume of work that's coming in for business. The type of work that it is, as I mentioned, those metrics about the complexity, the risk, the strategic value as well of that work.
And so at the click of a finger, we have a dashboard. We can see at any point in time, how many live matters we have, you know, and the completion rate, how quickly we’re turning around matters. Also, for example, if we can see in the last 12 months we've done six mergers and acquisitions, and that will then inform decisions about training and development or recruitment. It really is a game changer.
Catherine: Wow, that's incredible. I would think that other legal teams listening to this would think that they would really love to do this. How would they approach it? And what would you recommend they do? For example, prioritizing the areas that they improve or understanding pain points first, exactly what you've just said, going through that process. And then, you know, you've hired somebody in as well. So at what point do you think about the person that you need to bring in to run the operations? So I guess I'm asking you about the advice that others would receive from you, that would be very helpful for them to take the similar path that you've driven in your organization.
Angela: Probably the place to start is to know what you suck at. I would recommend benchmarking. There are a lot of legal ops health checks out there that's available that will give you a baseline and help you to understand what areas and what process you need to improve on. So get some help in, I think, understanding your weaknesses.
Catherine: Amazing. So maybe people can contact you at some point to have a bit more of a deeper chat on that. I think it's absolutely amazing what you're doing. And we look forward to seeing more about what you're up to as it unfolds over the next years. It's just great.
So also I mentioned at the top that you were an award winner last year in the ALB Japan law awards. And you've recently been interviewed. I heard you interviewed on curious lawyer, or crazy lawyer…
Angela: Crafty Counsels.
Catherine: That was the one, excuse me for misnaming it. But how do you then brand yourself as an in-house lawyer? Because you've got, I know, at the bottom of your email signature, you have that award mentioned. So even as an in-house counsel, is there a way that you are actively being out there, Angela, branding yourself?
Angela: I think unconsciously, so I've been branding myself through things that I'm passionate about, and it is this digitalization of, and future proofing of the legal function. I think the legal corporate legal departments really need to change and make progress. And in Japan, I think we're maybe perhaps a little slow, but I think corporates, legal departments, and CLOs, and GCs are all now starting to sit up and take away from this, you know, the proliferation of legal tech in other parts of the world, and how innovation is really driving efficiency and helping legal functions to deliver that greater value to organizations.
So that's something I'm passionate about and starting to, you know, craft a space for myself. But the other aspect is also, you know, reaching out and giving something back through Women in Law in Japan.
Catherine: Yeah, I'm hearing you. Great. That's really, really good advice for lawyers to be thinking about as well and the way that you can still devote time to branding.
Even as an in-house counsel and not being a private practice, people always think as a lawyer, you need to do all your branding and that it stops once you're in-house. But I can see very well that you're working on that. I'm gonna just switch gears a little bit, just for some advice to young lawyers and other lawyers, some things that perhaps were said to you or delivered off somebody else's tongue to you, that were really helpful for you when you were starting out in your career.
And perhaps the other side of that, the flip side, maybe some advice that wasn't the best. Worst piece of advice and how you've handled those two things, if you can think of those.
Angela: I said to you before that I didn't really have many mentors in my life, but I did have one person who has changed my career completely, changed the way that I see myself and the way I define myself.
And she was a mentor, I was very blessed, at a particularly difficult stage of my life, where I was in a role that challenged me to really dig deep, to be my most resourceful, my most creative, most resilient every single day. And it was really the crucible of my career and made me question my core values, my intellect, my judgment, and my self worth.
And it was just taking a huge toll on me and I just couldn't figure out what I was doing wrong and, you know, what could I do to fix it. At that time I had this incredible woman in my life and I used to meet up with her. I asked her to be my mentor and we would just meet up actually at a wine bar and talk over glasses of wine.
And I remember sharing these issues with her and asking her to help me to do better. I desperately just wanted to understand what I was doing wrong. And when I finished, I still recall she very slowly put down her glass. She leaned towards me and she looked me in the eye and said, Angela, it's not you, it's him.
And those words actually didn't sink in for a long time. And I didn't recognize the bullying and harassment that I was being subjected to. And instead I really internalized them and made them my fault. Over time I even normalized it and justified it. But it was my mentor who gave me a good, hard shake to bring me out of that paralysis and to take action.
So my advice, sadly, bullying and harassment is really prevalent in the legal industry. And there are many high profile examples. So please learn to recognize these behaviors and know that it is not your fault, and have the courage to call out those behaviors.
Catherine: Wow. I'm almost visualizing myself sitting next to you at that wine bar, with this person magically taking you under their wing and saying something quite sternly, right?
But also that was necessary, I think, for that particular mentor to say it to you in that way, so that you really had it driven home to you, that it wasn't you, that it was somebody else who was really inflicting this upon you. My goodness. Is this why this advice that you have for young women and the passion that you have in supporting them to be bold young professionals and maximize their potential, is this where this is coming from?
Angela: Definitely one of the reasons.
Catherine: How are you doing that? How are you supporting others to reach that potential and to fight what you've just talked about?
Angela: I think it’s just every day in my own team through praise, which I think is not often forthcoming in the legal industry and also in the Japanese culture, to praise and recognize junior members, not just females, for good work and for them to build confidence and self-worth.
I think that's very important. And also to help them realize their potential by pushing them just that little bit more outside of their comfort zone. So that's what I try to do on a day-to-day basis in my team. But, you know, I think in the last 12 months I realized that I need to reach out further into the community.
And that's why I joined also the Women in Law Japan and hopefully expand my network, and be able to reach out. Reach more young female professionals. And within JERA itself, I also helped with the diversity and inclusion initiatives and join all of their workshops to talk to as many people as possible, to inspire them and to let them know what's out there.
And that you don't have to choose between a career and a family, which sadly, I find a lot of female young professionals in Japan find that they have to choose, that they have to give up their career when they start a family.
And I just don't think that's right or true.
Catherine: Right. And you're showing that through what you do. And are you also speaking about the harassment and bullying aspect that you just mentioned? Are you talking to people about that, and are you helping them raise their voice if they come across something like this? How are you helping people in that way?
It sounds like it profoundly affected you and it's affecting me as I speak with you. So I'm wondering how you're speaking about that to help others.
Angela: I haven't, and I would love to actually proactively help support groups. But since that particular part of my life, I have also seen and witnessed bullying and harassment. And I have very actively tried to support the victim to make them understand that it's not their fault and that they're not doing anything wrong.
And to give them courage to really break the cycle and to dig deep for that steel, because I think everybody has that steel inside them. And you know, these events of adversity can often be something that not only defines us, but will, you know, make us, you've heard the saying, whatever doesn't kill us, make us stronger.
And that's exactly it. And the learnings will be more acute and have a greater impact, because you know, smooth seas never make a skilled sailor and we've just got to get through it. But it also requires a tremendous amount of empathy for the people who are subject to that sort of behavior.
Catherine: Yeah. Well, I think we've got to do some more about this and find out how we can bring some more of that strength within you, Angela, to others to really help them through this. Because I think it's perhaps a little bit more prolific than what we think. And so I'd like to ask you about traits that you are really most proud of, and I can already hear courage and resilience from you.
Are those the kinds of traits that you have that you would call out as being part of you, that help you be successful right now?
Angela: I think so. And, you know, I would say stubbornness, hard work and never giving up. You know, if I think I deserve something, I will fight to the last breath to get what I want.
And if I think I don't deserve something, then I will also make sure that it's known.
Catherine: And if you weren't going to be a lawyer, right, if you were not a lawyer from next year, what would you be?
Angela: I think I would like to donate my time to help people, victims.
Catherine: Well, let's think a bit more about that as we move through next year of Women in Law Japan, and pro bono and other things have come up recently in conversations I've had with people.
And so I think we could probably do something with that within the next year.
Angela: Let's do it.
Catherine: Yeah, let's do it. Is there anything that we've talked about today that you'd like to reiterate or mention again? Or is there something that I haven't traversed with you that you'd like to speak about?
Angela: There are a couple of mantras that I would like to share.
Catherine: Yeah, tell us.
Angela: I don't watch boxing, but there are two mantras that are from Muhammad Ali that often helps me overcome problems. And the first one is, float like a butterfly, sting like a bee. I used to be a huge planner, you know, order, certainty, control. I made a list of everything, a list of lists, and it is what we do, right?
We, as lawyers, we get asked, what is your 12 month action plan? What is your three year goal? What are your long-term career goals? And I used to think that having a plan was halfway to success, but I have learnt that success really evolves over time. And when we had our first born, I learnt very quickly that the baby doesn't care what my plan is.
And if I was going to make it through the day I needed to adjust my M.O. I had to be resourceful, creative, flexible, and at the same time to establish boundaries for a little person. So applying the learnings from motherhood made me take more choices and chances with my professional decisions. I think having a plan is very important, but also be agile, be graceful, pick your battles.
And when you go in for that battle, for that something you want, make sure you strike with precision.
Catherine: Stinging like a bee.
Angela: That's right.
Catherine: Oh my God. That's so good. Wow. This is amazing. What's the other one? Oh my gosh.
Angela: The other one sort of speaks for itself; don't count the days, make the days count. It is a reminder to, rather than focusing on how much longer until I get that promotion that I'm chasing, or how much more training I need to do to be able to run a marathon, to really focus instead on making each day count as it is happening, because life is pretty overwhelming.
And one of my strategies has always been to just cut it down to size, focus on the day that I'm in, what I've achieved in that day. And in life, all we can do is really, you know, our best one day at a time and let the rest come as may.
Catherine: Oh, Angela. I have goosebumps with you. I'm so glad I asked you that question.
We're about to wind up. Not that I want to, but we do need to so that everyone who's listening can actually get on with their day. But I do want to finish with the super six, the final super six, a quick fire round of six questions that I ask every guest to wind up the interview. Are you ready to go?
Angela: Yep.
Catherine: All right. So one is around giving you a cash gift and where you would spend it in Japan, your favorite store, destination, and recently a lot of social responsibility, and social action topics have come up amongst our guests. How about you, Angela?
Angela: Yeah, Catherine. I would invest it, very boring, but I would invest it and donate the earnings to nonprofits that are dedicated to, you know, lifting children out of poverty, providing access to education, fighting child labor and trafficking, funding DV shelters.
You know, there's just a huge list of social justice issues that I would love to be able to contribute towards. And I think I'm influenced by Kamala Harris. I'm reading her book at the moment.
Catherine: Yes. I've read her book. It's amazing. That is amazing. Well done. Good. Well, I was going to say, can you share a podcast or a book you are reading, but you've just shared one. What's her book called?
Angela: The Truths We Hold.
Catherine: Yeah. And how far through are you?
Angela: Final chapters.
Catherine: Okay. That's great. So that's amazing. And I was going to also ask you what your favorite saying is, but I've just got two gems off you. So tell me then, is there a famous person or celebrity you would love to meet or have met? And perhaps it could have been Muhammad Ali, actually.
I'm not going to put words in your mouth. How about it?
Angela: Probably, somebody who's no longer with us; Muhammad. But probably somebody who's alive; it has to be Kamala Harris, hands down.
Catherine: Hands down. I hope she comes to Japan and we can meet her through the American Chamber or somehow. I really hope she comes to Japan.
All right. What about what's on your bedside cabinet in your home that inspires you and why?
Angela: My bedside table is just an infuser, a box of essential oils, and a collection of massage oils. Because I run a lot, and I find that I like to wind down by giving my hands or my feet a massage. And just to reflect on the day, I think it's a nice way to relax. Otherwise your brain just keeps spinning.
Catherine: Yeah. Glorious. It's a way to actually just calm the brain down. I agree with you fully. And I was going to ask you a bonus question, which is something about you that people don't know, but I feel the hard hat in a mine, Angela, could take the cake on that one.
Anything else that we should know about you that we don't know already?
Angela: I talked about marathon running before. I love endurance running. I run on average about a hundred kilometers a week.
Catherine: No way, really?
Angela: Yeah, I think running is totally a mental sport. The mind is the athlete, the body just simply, you know, is what it uses to run faster and longer, but it's all in the head.
Catherine: Wow. Gosh, you're fascinating. That's amazing, Angela. Well, we have actually come to the end of this marathon podcast with you, and I really have enjoyed listening to your, my goodness, super career. And also the areas that you've been talking about, which are really deep and sensitive. And I do thank you for going there and combining all of that.
And amongst also, that real sense of adventure and curiosity that you've got in your career and your life so far. Thank you very, very much.
Angela: My absolute pleasure, Catherine, and I'm sure that your podcast will keep on winning more awards.
Catherine: Let's hope. And to that extent, we need people to be listening, and also, you know, writing reviews because apparently that's how it gets done.
The reviews are very, very important for people to put on apple podcasts or Spotify in order to get the Lawyer on Air podcast out there and heard and listened to by many, many people. But if people want to listen and talk with you a little bit more, Angela, how can they do that? Would that be through LinkedIn or is it some other way to get in touch with you?
Angela: LinkedIn is the best way. And I would love to share more about what we're doing at JERA legal, with legal operations, and digitalisation, and future-proofing the legal function.
Catherine: Great. Because certainly people follow you on LinkedIn. They can actually see a lot of your posts and shares that have that kind of information.
So please do that. And so I will finish it up there. We've had this fantastic conversation about so many things, and I really do thank you for being my seventh guest on season two of Lawyer on Air. And I thank you for your openness and honesty. And really, as I just mentioned, people who are listening, please do drop us a short review. That really does help Lawyer on Air be seen and heard by many people.
You can even jump onto my website and leave a voicemail. I do love hearing your actual voice telling me how you feel and what you thought about the podcast. So do go ahead and share this episode with someone else who may get some enjoyment from listening to it and be inspired to live a wonderful lawyer extraordinaire life.
So that's all for now. See you on the next episode. Cheers, kampai, and bye for now!
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Lawyer on Air was the winner of the Bronze Award in the “Best Podcast by a Kiwi Abroad Category” in the New Zealand Podcast Awards 2021.
Lawyer on Air has been nominated for “Best Business Podcast” in the Quill Podcast Awards, 2021! Thank you to all our supporters who voted for the podcast!