S2 Episode Five: Driving the future of work in the law featuring Nicole Scoble-Williams
Full transcript follows.
Have you always wanted to be a lawyer but given up on your dream thinking it was too late? Well my guest, Nicole Scoble-Williams is going to show you how absolutely anything is possible with her amazing career to date that traverses software engineering and IT, genetic counselling to law and the future of work. We certainly have a futuristic episode for you!
If you enjoyed this episode and it inspired you in some way, we’d love to hear about it and know your biggest takeaway. Head over to Apple Podcasts to leave a review and we’d love it if you would leave us a message here!
In this episode you’ll hear:
How Nicole went from “struggling” in maths, to studying software engineering and genetics
The day her life changed when she noticed a certain ad in the morning newspaper
Nicole’s secret for attracting opportunities
How Nicole started studying the law as a way to follow her passion
What is the future of work and the implications for the future of work in the law
Nicole’s advice for making decisions or considering opportunities
Her favourite books and other fun facts
About Nicole
A lawyer and passionate pioneer, helping activate adaptable and resilient businesses and careers through harnessing the collective intelligence of humans working productively with smart technology. With more than twenty years’ cross-industry experience in Information Technology Services, Talent Strategy and Advisory, and Mergers & Acquisitions, Nicole works with individuals, businesses and governments, helping them to reimagine their future vision and adapt to the constantly evolving new realities of work in today’s digital age of perpetual disruption.
Nicole is a lawyer qualified in the State of New South Wales in Australia and is a Partner with Deloitte in Japan and leads Deloitte's Future of Work business for the APAC region. Nicole has a Masters of Science in Genetic Counselling as well as a Bachelor of Arts majoring in Software Engineering and Criminology. Nic also has a Diploma in Quality Auditing and is certified in Virtual Alternative Disputes Resolution. She has more than 20 years cross industry experience in information technology services in talent strategy and advisory and in mergers and acquisitions.
Nicole helps to activate adaptable and resilient businesses and her careers so far have gone through harnessing the collective intelligence of humans working productively with smart technology. Nicole works with individuals, businesses, and governments. She helps them to re imagine their future vision and to adapt to the constantly evolving new realities of work in today's digital age of perpetual disruption.
Nicole is a published author of several publications such as the Deloitte 2021 Global Human Capital Trends Short Report on the Worker-Employer Relationship Disrupted: which asks if we are not a family what are we?
Connect with Nicole
LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/nicole-scoble-williams/
Links
Steven Covey: The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People: https://www.amazon.co.jp/Habits-Highly-Effective-People-Powerful/dp/0743269519
Linda Gratton, Andrew J. Scott: The New Long Life
https://www.amazon.co.jp/New-Long-Life-Framework-Flourishing/dp/1526615177
Deloitte 2021 Global Human Capital Trends Short Report on the Worker-Employer Relationship Disrupted: which asks if we are not a family what are we? https://www2.deloitte.com/global/en/insights/focus/human-capital-trends/2021/the-evolving-employer-employee-relationship.html
Connect with Catherine
Linked In https://www.linkedin.com/in/oconnellcatherine/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lawyeronair
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/catherine.oconnell.148
Twitter: https://twitter.com/oconnelllawyer
Transcript
Catherine: Hi, everyone. Welcome to Season Two, Episode Five of Lawyer on Air. I'm Catherine O'Connell. Today I'm joined by Nicole Scoble Williams, who is a lawyer qualified in the state of New South Wales in Australia. Nicole is currently a partner with Deloitte in Japan and leads Deloitte’s future of work business for the APEC region. Nicole or Nic, as I like to call her, has a master's of science in genetic counselling, as well as a Bachelor of Arts, majoring in software engineering and criminology.
Nic also has a diploma in quality auditing and is certified in virtual alternative disputes resolution. She has more than 20 years of cross-industry experience in information technology services, human capital advisory, total talent management and in mergers and acquisitions, Nick is really and truly a passionate pioneer in the realm of future of work.
To me, Nic is a future of work influencer, and I'm really excited to bring you Nic today because we are going to delve deeply into her wealth of insights in this hot area. I've asked guests on the podcast to give their ideas about the future of working as a lawyer and what a law firm needs to be thinking about to bring lawyers into the future of working in the law.
But this is the first time to bring someone on the show like Nic, who is a master in this specific area of future of work. And so for this reason, I wanted to devote a special episode focusing on future of work. I just don't know any lawyer or employer, employee, or self-employed entrepreneurial CEO of a business who is just not interested in the future of work.
So this episode will give listeners insights that they may not easily have access to in this absolutely fascinating area affecting what is around the corner for people, including lawyers, as they approach their future of working. Nic also helps to activate adaptable and resilient businesses and her career so far has gone through harnessing the collective intelligence of humans, working productively with smart technology.
Nic works with individuals with businesses and governments, and she helps them reimagine their future vision, and to adapt to the constantly evolving new realities of work in today's digital age of perpetual disruption. Nic is a published author of several publications, including the Deloitte 2021 Global Human Capital Trends special report on the worker, employer relationship disrupted. Which asks, if we are not a family, what are we?
As well as future of work, Nic is also well known for two other skilled passions, which is change management and operational excellence. And I'm sure you will see how all of these golden threads of passion weave their way through all of the activities and that Nic immerses herself in. I've had the absolute pleasure of connecting with Nic over the past several months to talk with her about the future of law on all of these topics.
And I very much admire and look up to her and I'm constantly learning from her. She lights up the zoom room when we have our early 7:00 AM chats and she makes my day brighter. So as you can tell, Nic is an example of yet another lawyer extraordinaire and a leader in the future of the world of law. And I am so proud and excited to bring Nic to you as my guest today, Nic, welcome to the show.
Nicole: Wow. Thank you so much for that very warm and very flattering introduction, Catherine. I'm so excited to be here today. The amazing work that you do continues to inspire and energise me. And so as somebody that eagerly awaits for each of your podcast episodes to be released, it is such an honour to be invited here today to talk with you.
And I'm really looking forward to the discussion.
Catherine: Oh, that's lovely. Thank you so much, Nic. Well, we're going to go through a lot today. We're going to be talking about various topics; your earlier career days in IT, change management, operational excellence, and genetic counselling, what got you interested in the future of work, your journey to work in both Singapore and Japan, and then what brought you into the law.
And I know as we talk, but I don't even need to ask you, but I know you're going to love to give us some of your words of wisdom and advice for what young professionals and young lawyers should be thinking about for their future careers. And how does that sound to you?
Nicole: Fantastic. Let's do it.
Catherine: Okay. Well, today we are talking online and I hope we can get to meet up in person soon.
But if we do that, where would that be? Because I'd like to know if you have a favourite wine bar or restaurant you love to go to. And what is your choice of beverage off the menu?
Nicole: Oh, well, I really worry, Catherine, that even at this early point, I'm going to disappoint your listeners because to be honest, I'm very constrained by food sensitivities.
And so I don't drink alcohol. I don't particularly enjoy exploring restaurants. However, I can't live without my almond milk latte. And so it may not sound very exciting or sexy, but Starbucks is always a sure thing for me, where I can meet up with others and enjoy an almond milk latte.
I actually have a colleague and friend of mine in Australia who's recently switched from an almond milk latte to a macadamia milk latte. And I'd love to find a place in Japan where I can have a macadamia milk latte. So maybe one of your listeners can help me out with that. And we could test that out together, Catherine.
Catherine: Oh, how interesting macadamia. I have seen Kikkoman has a macadamia milk out on the market.
So maybe you could take some milk home at least and make a coffee at home. But I don't know that I've seen it on a menu anywhere, but we should probably discover that. And hopefully listeners can indeed come up with some of those suggestions for you. I would love to hear. Sounds lovely. I think it's great. It doesn't always have to be alcohol-related. I think that's wonderful. So thank you so much.
You and I have actually known each other for about a year. And I think I first heard you speak at an Australian New Zealand Chamber of Commerce in Japan event last week, last year, not last week. It feels like last week, last year.
And I was really impressed by your expertise then, and your depth of knowledge. And after that, you and I connected on LinkedIn. And over the year, we've also got to know each other a bit more through Women in Law Japan. And latterly, as I said before, we had these coffee chats online. So I really think it's rather amazing that we can connect with someone for a relatively short time, but just feel like we've known them for so much longer.
And I read the other day that people who click together who feel like they're on the same wavelength, they have a name for it, and it's called interpersonal synchronisation. So that's how I feel with you, Nic. It's like, I feel it's very great, really, really great when we get life treating us in this way when we can have these lovely interactions.
So that's what we call it, Nic. Interpersonal Synchronisation.
Nicole: Oh, I love it. Interpersonal synchronisation. And absolutely just perfectly articulates what we have together, Catherine, and something that I do truly value, and I'm very grateful for.
Catherine: Thank you so much. And I always ask my guests at the very beginning, what they wanted to be when they were a child. Tell me, Nic.
Nicole: Okay. To be honest, when I was a child, dancing was my love. But back then when I was growing up, being a dancer wasn't something that you thought about in terms of what do I want to be when I grow up. There were no school subjects that you could do around dance. There were no career pathways that there are today.
I'm sure that if I were growing up today in the 2020s, I would absolutely say that I wanted to teach dance and own a dancing school. However, in the absence of that career pathway back then, my memories are always of wanting to be a maths teacher. Which is really kind of crazy, given that when I was in grade three and fractions started getting introduced, I really started to struggle with maths.
And if it hadn't been for the maths teacher going to my parents and suggesting an intervention with some extra special homework, I would definitely have been someone that dropped out of maths at the earliest opportunity. Thankfully, that didn't happen. The early intervention unlocked my passion for maths.
And I guess more importantly, my passion for tackling a really good challenge, which as I'm sure we'll talk more about, has really set the tone, I think, for the way that my career has just been defined through this constant re-invention.
Catherine: So many people would shy away from a challenge. But I'm hearing through you and from our chats that we've had before today, that challenge is really what's driven you. That's really amazing. And maths, don't take me there. I can't stand it. So maybe you're going to have you teach me some maths since it's really my weak area.
But for me, I see your career path as sort of in three big general chapters. Like the first chapter would be when you were back in Australia, before you embarked on your future of work journey in Singapore.
And then I think that the second chapter is the evolution of your future of work journey. When you relocated from Singapore to Japan. And then the third chapter is this explosion, literally an explosion, into future of work and how this is driving you in your area of work now, and as you've qualified as a lawyer in these last couple of years.
So I do want you to tell me though, and tell everybody, through taking us through first those decisions to study software engineering and criminology, and how that landed you your first roles in Australia. And then out of university, you had two roles with Electronic Data Systems, and then also at IVF Australia, and then moved to Deloitte.
So for me, hearing and listening to your career path before we chatted today, the first two roles are really quite different in very different industries. And I'm intrigued to know what led you to those two different companies. And also I have to call it out here before we go into the detail, is that all the while you are running these careers, and you will tell us about those in a minute, you were also studying the law.
You studied law from 2009 to 19, right?
Nicole: Absolutely. A dedicated passion project there.
Catherine: So over 10 years, right? It's really important for listeners to know this because study of the law is humming away in the background over all the time you've had these careers in different industries and sectors.
And so I see your journey like this big, long river, like the river Nile, with different ports you stopped at along the way for your different careers. But all the while this water flowing along is like the study of law, and the study of law, and the study of law. So let's begin back on that path, back at school and university, and then into your initial roles.
And I hope everyone listening is really buckled in because this is going to be an amazing ride that you're going to take us on. So go back to that maths at school and how you started that challenging of the status quo, right from the get go.
Nicole: To level set, I should highlight that there is absolutely no rationale and logical connection to the way my journey has evolved. At high school in year 12 against the advice of all my teachers and career counsellors. I refused to choose subjects based on what would be the best combination to optimise my score for university entrance. Rather I insisted that I did subjects that I loved. And so what that meant was that unlike all of the other students who were studying maths A and maths B alongside physics, which was a prerequisite to do that level of maths, I had to work hard to obtain an exemption and special permission to be able to do maths A and maths B without that physics prerequisite.
And that then enabled me to also focus on my love for legal studies and human development in society. When I transitioned into university I remained my stubborn self, I have to admit. And again, took a totally irrational combination of subjects with a criminology focus, because while I always loved law, I couldn't see a career in law outside of a courtroom back then.
And that didn't appeal to me. As well as keeping true to that focus on mathematics, which ultimately evolved into a software engineering focus.
Catherine: Oh my goodness. Yeah. And so I think we’re led to often believe if we watch too many TV dramas, that courtroom lawyers are all there is, right? Of course but there are other areas of law outside of the world of TV.
So it doesn't really show the full picture of reality along the breadth of law career possibilities. So what happened then?
Nicole: So I was actually about to start my honours year in criminology, planning to focus on the decriminalisation of drug use with an exciting trip planned to Amsterdam of course, when I received the invitation from Electronic Data Systems, EDS, to interview for their graduate software engineering program.
And I interviewed without any real plans to take a job, but I thought it would be great interview experience, not realising that the further I would get along the selection process, the more interested I would become with the opportunity, and especially the opportunity to attend the 10 week bootcamp program that was conducted in America.
And so by the time I was offered a position, I realised it was too good an opportunity to pass. And so I said, okay, I'll defer my honours year fully expecting to embrace an exciting year of working in the real world, but then returning to my love for criminology. But of course it's all history now because by the time that first year had finished, I was in my element.
I loved the IT industry, the company I was working for, the people I was working with, and the ability to really contribute in a meaningful way. And so that was the end of the honours in criminology chapter.
Catherine: Right. How incredible. So you took this interview just for the experience of doing the interview itself, and then you ended up working for the company that you had the interview with.
It's like black and white compared to your criminology study. That's so fascinating. Wow. And then there's a pivot after that to genetics as well.
Nicole: Now the pivot to genetics may be a story for another day, but it was a very sudden and unexpected pivot. I had some personal experiences that exposed me to the complexities and perplexities of genetics and it totally captured my curiosity.
And I found myself gravitating more and more to researching and talking to people about genetics and what I was learning. And it quickly became evident that this had emerged as a real passion pulling me, and that despite my great love for the IT industry, which continues today, I knew I had to pivot. So it was scary, crazy, irrational but really had to be done.
So back to studying I went, from a successful well-paying role in a great IT company to being a student.
Catherine: Wow. Okay. So you followed your inner compass. I feel some similarity to, I guess, back to when I was doing tourism and guiding Japanese tourists around New Zealand, and I grew to love the law from studying it as I was building up my body of interesting information to talk to people about as we were on our sightseeing trips.
So I think too, when I pivoted out of tourism to go to university to do law, that kind of was also maybe a crazy pivot to borrow your words, and to go back and study and do that sort of thing. So like you though, I'd do it again if I could. And then you finished your genetic studies, I think, was it around 2006?
Nicole: Sure was.
Catherine: And then what happened? Tell us some more.
Nicole: Yes. So when I finished my genetic studies, I was really fortunate to have the opportunity to transition into a role with an IVF clinic. Which in itself was really amazing at the time because almost all of the genetic counselling roles in the early days of the profession were mainly based in the hospital setting and in my own personal way and style, I was looking for something non-traditional.
And so the opportunity to really step into genetic counselling in that really niche area in an IVF setting was something quite remarkable, but there was something even more unexpected that emerged. And I would never have imagined. Because of my IT background and all of my experiences throughout my time in IT, it didn't take more than two months for that role to very quickly evolve into a dual role where I had 50% focus on the clinical genetics work, and the other 50% supporting the CEO to really drive a culture of operational excellence and continuous improvement, focusing on HR quality and IT initiatives.
So a little bit like a chief of staff. And so that was just a fascinating example of where the CEO quickly saw my capabilities, my potential, my passions, and realised this person has so much more to her than genetics, and really just embraced all of that and gave me the opportunity to fly.
Catherine: Oh, so this is the start of you getting into this area of excellence and continuous improvement and moving further towards this future of law area. Correct?
Nicole: Absolutely.
Catherine: Sorry, I have to go back and ask you about genetic counselling because I don't know what that is. What does it actually involve?
Nicole: It's a wonderful question. And I think something for all our listeners as they hear me talk about this, I'm sure that they will hear me say some things that really resonate with some of the things that are important to the work of a lawyer.
So genetic counselling is really a communication process, and it's focusing on helping individuals, couples, and families to understand and adapt to the medical, psychological familial. And all of the reproductive implications of the genetic contribution to specific health conditions. And there are really four key dimensions to the genetic counselling process.
Firstly, there's a dimension around interpreting family and medical histories to assess the chance of a disease occurring or reoccurring. Secondly, there's an education piece, education around the natural history of a condition, the inheritance patterns, you know, the testing management, prevention, the support research, resources and the research.
Then thirdly, there's a counselling element. Promoting informed choices, you know, really looking at things like risk assessment, family goals, ethical religious values. And then finally, there’s this whole dimension around providing that support to encourage the best possible adjustment to a particular disorder in an affected family member, and/or to the risk of disorder recurring.
And in an IVF setting all of that really comes to life in two key areas. The first area is in the use of preimplantation genetic diagnosis, which provides the ability to screen embryos for genetic conditions before embryos are selected to be implanted. And the second area is all around donor screening. So all potential donors are screened for a range of genetic conditions as a part of the donation process.
And there are actually many people who find out very unexpectedly during the donor process about having inherited a gene change or a genetic condition. So you can probably see Catherine, there's a lot of dimensions there. When you think about what we do as lawyers.
Catherine: Wow. Fascinating. I don't know where you get all of this from, Nic.
It is absolutely absolutely fascinating. And I can see indeed how the content is different, but the approaches that you've applied there, I was sitting there, as you said, and thinking, yes, that applies to law that applies to law. The way that we approach our work as lawyers. And I think also through the IVF clinic, you had a whole bunch of acquisitions happening, and I think you also had an ISO certification, and I think it's really fascinating because these also tie into the law.
So tell us a bit more about those.
Nicole: There was a real focus to my role around paper and culture initiatives. And they were particularly key because not long after I started, the clinic embarked on a growth strategy that was really powered by acquisition after acquisition. And there was a really clear vision and commitment to making sure that each acquisition strengthened and elevated the culture.
And of course at the core of all of this we’re an IVF clinic. And so things like quality and risk management are absolutely crucial and nothing is more important than the patient experience. You know, I mean in IVF, you can't always promise that the outcome will be a healthy child, but you can promise that you will provide the most extraordinary experience possible.
And so that patient experience was key. And during this time I had the privilege of leading the ISO certification of the clinic and its day hospitals, which when I think back now was pretty amazing because it was a first for the IVF industry for an IVF clinic to become ISO certified.
I mean, it's something now that's quite standard, but at the time it was a real first. And interesting, something I'd done a lot of in IT. So it didn't quite seem so unusual to me, but you know, certainly was a remarkable experience. And as I'm sure we'll talk about, probably really did elevate my focus in terms of pioneering
Catherine: Wow, that's right.
I mean, we do think of it as standard, and lots of things we have in our lives now have been standardised. And we don't think about the first people who went back in history and did that. Wow. You made history there. Right?
Nicole: You know, amazing. And when I think about it, history in terms of the patient experience we were able to deliver. The things that we were caring about and focusing on that not a typical IVF clinic was at the time, you know?
And so when you think about the way that the world has moved so quickly and so rapidly over the last decade or two, that really provided the foundation to quickly evolve from what started as a single clinic, very quickly grew to a global network of clinics. I really think that the ISO foundation provided the foundation for that. It created a way for us to scale very quickly with a framework that was repeatable. It's just amazing.
Catherine: Wow. And so you were there until 2012 and you picked up studying law from 2009. So you're doing this ISO certification and studying law as well as your day job, right?
Nicole: It was in the middle of my time in IVF that I made the decision to embark on my law studies.
And to be honest, I remember it very clearly. I was just sitting at home one Sunday morning, reading the Sunday paper, and I saw an ad for the LPAB program. And I just thought, this is the moment, you know, so it wasn't a process that I went through. Will I start law? It was a moment having a coffee Sunday morning, saw the ad in the paper and I just thought, wow, it's time.
And so, yeah, that's where it all began.
Catherine: Fantastic. Wow. You just sort of think if you hadn't looked at the paper that day or someone had thrown it out before you got to read it. It's just incredible. The serendipity that happens when we see something and it's meant to be seen by your eyes at that time.
I think that's fantastic. Goodness me. And so moving along then, you're at the tail end of that first chapter, I think when you're embarking on this future of work journey, you're getting a lot of ideas and you're working on new things and you're starting to move from Australia to Singapore. And I think it was Deloitte that took you there.
Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. And so, you know, during my time in IVF, it was being focused on pioneering, being pragmatic, understanding how to use deep listening, of the workforce, of patients, of the market, you know, to really prioritise and drive strategic initiatives at scale and in an agile way, had become a part of the DNA of the organisation and of, I guess, what I had become and what I felt was important to an organisation.
And so Deloitte looked at that and felt that I had a real contribution to make in terms of their own internal people and culture function. And so that's where the story began. You know, they basically said we need pioneering Nic to come and help us drive our people and culture initiatives at Deloitte.
Catherine: So they were watching you from the outside.
Nicole: Maybe, it seems so. Yeah.
Catherine: Wow. It's amazing. Sometimes you just think, you never know who is looking at you and the way you're doing your work and observing you. And so they've plucked you out of this business you were working in, and what happened? You were taken by Deloitte and tell me what happened after that.
Nicole: Yes. So at first at Deloitte, I was focused on people, advisory and solutions. And that included taking care of our offshore HR services centre, all of our HR and talent technology and systems, and people analytics, as well as leading the people stream on Deloitte M&As. So that is where all of my experience with acquisitions in IVF really played a role.
And then all of this evolved into focusing on strategic global transformation projects, including things like the reinvention of our performance management experience. And then later on the implementation of an open talent network. And I think particularly that moment when I was focusing on the implementation of an open talent network, that's when I really started to gravitate my focus and became all consumed with future of work as a macro issue.
And with all of my background, it really enabled me to then take on the role of establishing our global future of work centre of excellence leader. Getting that set up in Singapore as a part of a three-year collaboration with the Singapore government on future of work, which was essentially about creating a digital hub, startup style, to create digital assets, to help organisations and governments navigate the future of work.
Catherine: Gosh. So that's where your work comes in for working with governments at that particular point in time. Yeah?
Nicole: Absolutely. Yeah. And, you know, as we approached the end of our collaboration with the Singapore government on the future of work, we realised that what we'd achieved had become so much bigger than what we could have imagined.
And it was at that time where we said, okay, we can see, we now need to really focus on building out our commercialisation model to scale our future of work offerings and services. And so I was given the opportunity to evolve my role from what had been a three year secondment, to a permanent role leading future of work for Asia Pacific based in Japan.
Catherine: So you came over to Japan. You swapped countries and you're still studying law here. Right?
Nicole: Still studying law. The decision to be based in Japan was twofold. I've always had a strong affiliation in Japan since first living here starting at the end of 2004, when my husband was on an expat assignment, and Japan's always been the place where my family and I spend as much time as we can since then.
But more importantly, we really believed that Japan was the market with the greatest untapped opportunity to really create value and impact for workers, business, industry, and government in helping navigate the future of work. And I think, Catherine, the pandemic has really highlighted that opportunity in Japan.
You know, here in Japan, workers are twice as likely than workers in other similar countries to say that their work can not be performed remotely at all. And workers here in Japan are more likely than workers in any other country to say that even when they can work remotely, it results in a decline in their productivity.
And you then layer over that the fact that we have the ageing and shrinking labor force in Japan, which is a paramount concern to all organisations here, and core to any and every discussion around the future of work. And, you know, I think just as we saw it back then, we continue to believe that here in Japan there is just endless opportunity around the future of work.
Catherine: Yeah. Wow. I think that's just so incredible that that hesitancy to do remote work is quite interesting, even though people have been doing that now for two years, it just really fascinates me. You've obviously moved around a bit and taken so many new opportunities as they presented themselves. So I do want to ask you what advice you would give to people who are looking for that next opportunity.
Nicole: Yeah, so I think one thing my experience has really highlighted is that the amazing opportunities I've had, particularly around the future of work, have been based on people knowing my passion for future of work and my desire to take on a broader global and regional role. I think as I've become older and hopefully wiser, I've become much more cognisant that in order for opportunities to come to you, people really need to know that those opportunities may be ones that you're interested in hearing about.
I mean, I strongly believe that doesn't mean you go around telling people that you're on a mission to find certain opportunities. I think it's more about adopting a curious mindset and always embracing those opportunities to interact and learn from others who can offer expertise, insights, and guidance to really feed your passion.
My experience has been that along the way those are often the people that think of you first, when certain opportunities do come up, because they're already really understanding the things that energise you and where you could contribute and have an impact.
Catherine: Such wise words. I love that. So moving to the foundations of those earlier roles that you had, how did they create foundations again for what you're doing now and your future work role in Japan?
Nicole: Yeah. So one reflection, one of the most important dimensions to the work I do around the future of work now is about navigating uncertainty. Having that courage to pioneer and to take on unexplored territory. And so things like leading the ISO certification when I was in IVF, something where there was no playbook for, have been really pivotal experiences, I think, in helping me build those skills and capabilities that are so critical to the work I do today.
That ISO certification, for example, it was all about courage, belief, creating the guiding coalition, you know, knowing the right people to bring along and to help you turn that challenge into a reality, and ultimately a success. It really was one of many experiences that gave me that strong foundation for continuing to grow and develop as a pioneer and somebody that just always thrived on challenging the status quo, and looking to unleash those new opportunities and aspirations.
And when I had the opportunity to then step into the future of work COE role in Singapore, it just could not have been more perfect, you know, to immerse me in all of that pioneering. I mean, that role was a first in so many respects for us, Deloitte, and for the Singapore government. We learned so much about driving a truly global program where we had to work out on the fly, how do we bring together the best of our global capabilities and expertise?
And so it really found me growing in ways that I wouldn't have imagined, especially in terms of being what I now call a global orchestrator. As well as learning the art of stakeholder engagement, you know, focusing on market nuances, navigating all of those opportunities and challenges across the markets and bringing them together.
It was all about pioneering on steroids. I probably also underestimate how much my genetic counselling came into play as well. You know, genetics again, is all about being comfortable, navigating uncertainties, and making the best decisions you can based on uncertain information. So yeah, pioneering on steroids, which of course I've just loved.
Catherine: And you’re so right, we are navigating uncertainty right now as well.
So you're probably one of the most well equipped people to be navigating through future of work, and future of lawyers and work right now. And I think that what you've got as your story is really fascinating. And as I've been saying several times through this, over this time in your roles in Australia and Singapore, and now in Japan, you were also studying the law.
To become a lawyer, which you are now. And gosh, if I think about my pathetic study of my second bar exam, it's nothing compared to what you're doing over 10 years there. You know, I had one hanami cherry blossom season in Japan where I missed social activities, but I was really only studying for six months, very intensely.
And you've done this over a number of years. I really think that's so terrific to have that tenacity to study for your goal to become a lawyer.
Nicole: Yeah, it's certainly been a journey. And, you know, I could probably speak for a whole day about all of the things that have really powered me through it. As I mentioned, I didn't pursue law as a career in my undergraduate studies because at the time I only saw that career of law in the courtroom.
And it wasn't until that moment later on when I started to see all of the possibilities of a career in law. And when I saw that piece in the newspaper, it really ignited that yearning I had to pursue the passion for law that had always been there. You know, it was always really important, I do think, to my own personal identity.
My law studies gave me a place where I could focus on what I loved, what I was yearning to learn, away from being a professional, being a wife, being a mother, you know, it really gave me the opportunity to stay true to myself and to not let the daily grind of life pull me away from continuing to focus on learning and the things that really spoke to me and what I was so curious about.
I mean, you've probably picked up by now, Catherine, that I'm not someone to have an agenda or have a plan. I look at every transition that I've gone through as being about a transition to a passion project, you know, I've always followed my passions and curiosity. So no rationale, just something I felt passionate about and wanted to dive in.
But I do have to say if I'd known back then what I know now in terms of what it would take to come out the other side as an admitted lawyer, I'm not sure I would have started. I sure am glad I did. I sure am glad that I've had my extraordinary family as my cheer squad, you know, encouraging me along. There were many, many moments, especially when I was embarking on the relocation to Singapore and then the relocation to Japan when I had to really reevaluate whether continuing my studies still made sense.
I mean, every six months I had to return to Australia to sit the exams in person. And although during all of this time, I could see my career evolving in ways that I hadn't anticipated when I first started my studies. And so to be honest, there were even some of those semesters when I was in Singapore and Japan, when I remained undecided as to whether I would continue.
And it was actually my husband and my son that initiated my re enrolment for a couple of those semesters. They knew me better than I knew myself. And they could see that law was still my passion, and that if I had have stopped, it would have only been because I was feeling stuck in the daily grind and not because law was no longer energising me.
Catherine: Oh. And I think law, the study there was probably energising you along in these roles. So you were still studying it and it wasn't a grind so much as that was probably giving you the fuel along with your family, you know, driving you and telling you this is right. Do it, do it, do it, don't give up. That sort of is pulling you along more than being a drag to you.
Nicole: Absolutely. It was my shining light, you know, I mean, it's like, you know, how people look forward to getting to yoga or the gym or things, you know, for me, I just couldn't wait to get to university or get stuck into my law books. You know, it was always my wonderful place where I could just immerse in all of the things that I loved.
Catherine: That's so amazing. And you've gone through that and you are now a qualified lawyer. So I think that just says to everybody that if you want to study, you know, if you really want to study for something while you're working, it can be done. It's not easy. And perhaps in your case too, Nic, it's better that you couldn't see the future, right?
You were talking about, you know, had you known something in the future, you wouldn't have done it, but I think actually you not knowing and being able to see into the future in that way was really positive that you kept going, and having your family around you is certainly really, really important.
And speaking of future, Japan work and your future of work passion, it seems to me that your move to Japan and that evolution into the role you've got now as future of work Asia Pacific leader, and the executive adviser on future work, it's really enabling you to bring all of these experiences and all of this passion for technology and people and law all together to be helping other organisations reimagine their vision for this accelerated future of work. Really this is such a massive area. Break it down for us. I think it's fascinating.
Nicole: Absolutely. Future of work certainly positions me at the intersection of technology, people, public policy, just an absolute dream. When I'm talking to colleagues, clients, and friends, I always say in its most simplistic terms, future of work is about making work better for people, and people better at work. I think if we stay focused on that, we stay very grounded, you know, but there are so many macro issues impacting the future of work and all of the unavoidable requirements that organisations need to address as a part of their strategic priorities. You know, social impact is ultimately what it's all about.
You can't tackle future of work without addressing at the same time things like the ageing and shrinking labor force, digital society and economy, wellbeing and mental health, climate action, diversity, equity, inclusion. Now we have, you know, “telly work”, remote working options. So future of work really provides the platform for us to bring all of that together, to really drive meaningful value in impact not only for workers and organisations, but at a national level to make work better for people and people better at work.
Catherine: Right. And I think this future of work is now banging up against the impact of COVID-19, this pandemic and its destruction on the world in which we work. And we talked together Nic about, well, before the podcast, we talked about that overriding message that you wanted to convey about. COVID-19, I think you said, creating a time machine into the future.
I really loved that description because we're in this kind of new world of work that is so much more because of this accelerated change through COVID-19. It's completely new and different to us all. And you quoted to me something from Albert Einstein, I think his words where you can't use an old map to explore a new world. And that really sat with me for a while afterwards. So tell me about this impact of COVID-19 that you're seeing, having on the future of work in Japan, and what this means for lawyers and law firms.
Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. And I just love Albert Einstein's words, you can't use an old map to explore a new world, because I think it's easy to forget that this new world is about so much more than the accelerated changes as you highlighted Catherine.
We can't assume that the things we've always done the way we've always done them, will continue to work in this new and different world. And so we need to be creating the new maps, the new mental models, for this new world. And in particular, to address the new pressures that COVID has really created around things like worker loyalty, inequity, skill gaps.
I mean, every day we are hearing about the great resignation, for example. Here in Japan, we have 63% of workers currently considering to change employers. Which is remarkable when you think about, you know, how we've traditionally had a model of lifelong employment. We also have seen 73% of the jobs lost in Japan during the pandemic being lost to women.
And we're now in a situation where we have 80% of employers in Japan saying they're very concerned about the talent and skill shortages in their industry. And so I think we're in a moment where whatever we thought the relationship was between workers and employers, which is of course at the heart of future of work, whatever we thought that relationship was before the pandemic, it's in a state of flux.
Something really interesting in terms of the legal interest industry in Japan, is that the data suggests that law firms and legal departments who have been embracing the digitalisation imperative and really focusing on accelerating their digital transformation efforts, have actually increased the number of lawyers they have on staff during the pandemic and grown their business in terms of revenue and new products and services.
While the law firms and legal departments that are lagging in their digital transformation efforts are more likely to have reduced the number of lawyers that they have due to a drop in revenue during the pandemic. So I think it's fair to say that we are in a moment here in Japan where the digitalisation imperative is unavoidable.
And it's not a matter of if a law firm or legal department embraces digital transformation. It's really a matter of when and how.
Catherine: Some amazing statistics in there. And also that fact that despite the pandemic, people in law firms have actually been taking on staff, and embracing digitalisation.
That's incredible. Because I think the rumours or the thoughts around town might be quite different. And I know from our discussions, Nic, that when you talk about this word or these words, digital transformation, you're not just talking about adoption of new technology, are you? You're talking about a bit more than that.
Nicole: Digital transformation is about so much more than just the technology. It's about the three interconnected dimensions of the work being done, the workforce doing the work, and that includes your human and digital workers, and thirdly the workplace. And so the new maps and mental models that we need to focus on, they need to address all three of these dimensions.
But ultimately it is about creating these new combinations of humans working with the technology. So as our human workers can stand on the shoulders of the technology to unlock new value and possibilities that have never before been available, enabling lawyers, for example, to keep up with their client's evolving expectations around a digital experience.
And importantly, something that I personally lose sleep over is how do we keep up in making sure we're understanding and proactively addressing the unknown and unmet needs of clients. So for example, some of these new maps and mental models that we're going to need to accelerate digital transformation will involve focusing on the work that needs to be done and what that means in relation to who will do that work.
And I know that, you know, I've mentioned to you in the past, Catherine, that there have been several studies suggesting that by 2025, 50% of the staff in a law firm or legal department will not be lawyers, which is a really different staffing model to what we know today.
And if you actually think about the work to be done, when we are living in a digital world, you know, we need to be driving digital marketing, we need to be designing digitised client journeys, providing legal services through a multi-channel approach to sales and delivery. And importantly, we need strong leadership and capabilities to drive a people and culture agenda. So as we can access, engage and develop the talent we need, as well as taking care of an agenda now around things like social responsibility, climate, and those kinds of things.
So a lawyer’s becoming just one of the many important roles that a law firm or legal department is really needing to focus on in order to thrive in this digital world.
Catherine: Wow, that is incredible. And I know when we were preparing for today, you mentioned to me also that the future is really ahead of us, and it's all about choices and choices having consequences for us.
So tell us a little bit more about that area as well. I'd love to hear your thoughts on that, especially as it relates to lawyers and the way that they will be working in the future.
Nicole: Yeah. So I think, you know, we've already seen those consequences with the law firms and legal departments that have successfully embraced digital transformation, you know, to evolve their business models, to grow their revenue.
And I think that that has really put the spotlight on our need to focus the work of lawyers on the distinctly human work. So this is all about empathy, experience, design, persuasive communication. You know, we need to keep challenging the status quo to look for where we can use the technology to release capacity for lawyers to focus on that distinctly human work.
And quite often I find people can really resonate with the example of doctors. If we think about doctors and we think about what the future work of a doctor might look like, it will very likely look more like the work that a nurse does today. With the technology doing all of the diagnostics far more accurately than a human can, with the power of AI and all of the emerging technologies, and the doctor really focusing on empathically helping patients to understand their symptoms, the different tests available, the possible results those tests might reveal, the different treatment options, the risks and benefits of those options.
And focusing more on being a medical counsellor, if you like. And I think it's going to be a little bit the same for a lawyer. The future work of a lawyer will likely be less about the technical points of the law and more about the client experience, always seeking to understand and unlock those unknown and unmet needs to help optimise the experience and outcomes for clients.
And I saw a really fascinating data point just yesterday that said 88% of the legal problems that people have, never, ever end up on the desk of a lawyer. Many people don't even ever realise they have a legal problem. And so when I think about that, I get really excited about what is ahead, and what we can unlock if we can create these new combinations of lawyers collaborating with the smart technology, and really start moving the needle on addressing those unmet and unknown needs.
Catherine: Wow. Okay. So I loved that analogy with doctors. I think that really makes sense. And the fact that we might be more like nurses in our way of doing law, I guess we might be called legal counsellors not lawyers in the future.
But that focus on distinctly human work, that really resonates with me. I think that was fascinating what you told us. And 88% of legal problems never end up on the desk of a lawyer?
Nicole: How’s that for opportunity for the legal industry? I mean, that's exciting. So yeah. legal problems, people, I mean, it goes beyond people just for whatever reason, not being able to access legal services.
This is about people not even knowing that there is a legal problem involved in a dilemma they're facing or an opportunity that they're exploring.
Catherine: Amazing. So now you're a qualified lawyer, right Nic? How does that feel to you? I wanted to just go there for that emotion and that feeling that you have, that you've now got through that. I didn't want to leave today without you being able to express how that feels, having done that study for such a long time and, and got there.
Nicole: So to be honest, I think it's still quite surreal. And I think that for the very first time in my life, I am wondering where is that north star? You know, I mean, if we go back to grade three, maths was what seemed to be the unachievable challenge. If I get to uni, you know, all throughout my life, I've always chased these seemingly unachievable, you know, aspirations, and I'm someone who thrives and gets energised by those possibilities that seem unattainable.
And I can actually remember when I had the privilege of being the keynote speaker at the launch of Deloitte SheXO program here in Japan, sharing my career story, and somebody in the audience asked me: what now, Nic? You've done it all. You're now a lawyer. You now live and work in Japan. What happens now that you’ve achieved those dreams?
And it made me realise I need to find a new north star. And I do think I'm still exploring that. I would love to get involved in things like the work of the United Nations, where you really see that focus on making the world a better place for everyone. So maybe that's to come, or maybe the next chapter will be about focusing on future of work for the legal industry, you know, helping law firms and legal departments create the new maps and mental models that we've talked about.
Or maybe it'll even be me starting a law firm of my own. I think the uncertainty of what lies ahead is what really excites me and energises me.
Catherine: I think that's been clear all throughout. You actually love the challenge of not knowing and going for it. You've given a lot of ideas there that might happen in your life, and I'm really excited to see what happens.
And so thank you for that. I really wanted to signify that as part of what we've been talking about, because you've just got such a fascinating range of things that you've done. And I can see you've got a lot going on that will happen in the future as well. Future being the very big topic today.
I'm going to switch gears a little bit because I love to hear what guiding routines our friends who appear on the podcast have. And so for you, Nic, what's the sort of things you do when you start out your day every morning? What are you up to? Tell us.
Nicole: Most important, doesn't matter whether it's snowing, raining, or sunshine, or where I am in the world, I have to have my morning walk or run at 5:00 AM.
That sets the tone and energy for my day. And I honestly can't remember a day in, gosh, decades where I haven't done that. So that absolutely is the start to my day.
Catherine: Wow. That's a passion as well. Isn't it for you then?
Nicole: Definitely.
Catherine: Do you keep regular hours? I know sometimes when we're meeting up at 7:00 AM, you've already been up for a number of hours.
So perhaps this is not the right question to ask you, but how about your hours and managing your day?
Nicole: Yeah, as you know, Catherine, because of my regional and global role, I don't have regular hours and I do tend to have multiple calls between 9:00 PM at night and two, 3:00 AM in the morning. So I have to be adaptable, but that also means I have to be really intentional into designing time for me into my day, you know, trying to prioritise that health and wellbeing.
And while I do work hard at that, I definitely know that that is a work in progress for me.
Catherine: And when you're working at home, have you got something around you that keeps you going? Any favourite objects that you have hanging around you to keep you going?
Nicole: Absolutely. So I do have a beautiful little ornament with Nic in some little glitter that my parents sent to me.
I've also got a gorgeous, I love you mum, key ring from my son. And then my place is surrounded with photos of my family, including our beautiful dog. So yeah, that's just my delight and joy when, you know, everything at home is just joyful being surrounded with those things.
Catherine: Fantastic, what about at the end of the day then?
Are you connecting with your family or when do you do that?
Nicole: Absolutely. So my family are in Australia. And so every day finishes with a long face call time to share and debrief the day's activities. And to be honest, sometimes either the person on the other end or me falls asleep in the middle, but it completely transitions me from work to the thing in life that matters to me the most, my family. At the end of a crazy day, no matter whether it's been, you know, an exciting one or a tough one, it's wonderful to always close my day, being grounded in that time with my family.
Catherine: Fantastic. And I think we've already heard a few traits that you have that you're really proud of, but let's have you call them out again. Maybe something you haven't told us or something you'd like to say again, but the traits that you're most proud of Nic.
Nicole: Hmm. Probably my passion, grit, and empathy. While I work really hard at doing my best, I know my best is often not enough. And I always say, I don't believe I've ever been someone who was blessed with that amazing IQ. I've always been that person who's just been about working hard and grit. And one of the things my parents have always instilled in me is that anything beyond your best is out of your control.
And so I think I'm proud that no matter what, I know that I always always work relentlessly to bring the very best to everything that I do. You know, recognizing it may not be enough, but at least if I can do that, I can be proud. And I think when you're focusing on the things that you're passionate about, you know, focusing on bringing your best, I think that just is something very natural and instinctive.
Catherine: And I'm also wondering if you like me choose a word of the year, or a theme to guide you.
Nicole: I don’t necessarily have, you know, a word of a year or anything like that. But I would say for me every year, every day, it's always about following my passions and the things that energise me. That's my compass. So no matter what decision I'm having to make, whether it's a personal decision, whether it's a career decision, I always go back. What are my passions? What energised me? And evaluate those decisions and important moments against that. So I guess that would be my compass follow the passions and the energisers.
Catherine: A constant theme for you is passion. Yeah, exactly. And if you were, I know you're passionate about your job now, but if you could swap jobs with someone just for a day or a week maybe, who would that be with?
Nicole: Um, well, I've always found Oprah so inspirational in the way that she just manages to connect so widely, so deeply, and the way that she seems to continue to learn and grow from all of that engaging with all kinds of different people. So I think I'd like to swap with her for a day. I think that'd be pretty fun.
Catherine: Yeah. I see. Okay. So I thought you were going to choose a dancer of some sort like Beyonce.
Nicole: It’s funny, because growing up and even now, I've always been a fan of Madonna and Kylie Minogue.
And when you think about Madonna and Kylie Minogue, they really are two artists that have continued to reinvent themselves. You know, you look at where they began and the way that they've just continued to evolve. So yeah, I think that, that love for dance, the love for music, I think I do still love living that through Madonna and Kylie Minogue. I have to admit.
Catherine: They have done re-invention over and over. It's incredible you pull that one out. Yeah, exactly. And so how about for other lawyers who are trying to do a sort of career management, I'd love you to tell us then, for example, for you, your influence in your life, people who've influenced you and why that is.
I'm getting an inclination that it could be your family, but please tell me.
Nicole: Yeah, without question, my family have always supported and encouraged every single one of my career pivots. Even those ones that didn't make logical sense at the time. You know, they've always been the ones that have believed in me and they've given me reasons to believe in myself, even when I couldn't find those reasons myself and I never, ever underestimate the role that my family has played.
And to be honest, Catherine, I don't think we talk about that enough and recognise that for many of us, you know, our family really has been an extraordinary impact on the way that not only our career journeys have shaped, but our lives more broadly.
I mean, I can't imagine how differently my life would have evolved if you know, my parents had of been a little bit hesitant and skeptical when I reached all of those different pivotal moments in my career, you know. But oh no, no, they were the first to say, you know, go, go, go, you've got to do it. And were always there knowing, and I guess always had the safety of knowing that even if it was an epic fail, I always knew that I would have my family to cushion and comfort me.
So yeah, absolutely. My family.
Catherine: So true. And what was the best piece of advice you can remember when you were starting off in your career or like moving through your careers?
Nicole: I think there are three particular pieces that really have been defining in how I approach work and life. And I still lean on them every day.
The first is a philosophy that was really embedded into our culture at EDS. And that was, everyone is doing the best they can given their view of the world, you know, and I think assuming positive intent, always as a starting point, just completely reframes everything.
The second one would be when you are faced with a decision, don't ask, should I do this? Ask yourself what if I don't do this? That has been a game changer for me, many moments that has really influenced where I've gone.
And then the final one. I think what I already talked about earlier, you can only control your best, everything else is out of your control. So don't get stressed out about what's not in your control, just focus on, you know, being laser focused on what you can control.
I think they'd be the three things.
Catherine: They're great. And how about the reverse? The, perhaps, the least advantageous advice, the worst piece of advice that you've received?
Nicole: That's kind of hard, you know, because I think I'm somebody who even with what may seem not so great advice, I'm always someone that tries to find a way to create a learning opportunity out of it.
But one piece of advice that maybe stood out as something that I really couldn’t reconcile was when I was considering the move from Singapore to Japan, there was somebody that suggested to me that I was at a point at my career where I'd done all the hard work for long enough, and that I should be looking to now shift towards downhill rather than uphill opportunities.
And so this person was saying, Nic, you're going into uphill in a big time. You know, you're done, you've done your time. Come on. You know, you deserve it. And of course as a passionate pioneer that thrives on a challenge, that just didn't resonate with me. So yeah, I think that's the only advice that really I've struggled to embrace and find a way to, you know, create a positive out of it.
Catherine: Yeah. And here you are thinking about the United Nations, opening your own practice, all kinds of things. I don't think you're doing downhill quite yet. That's for sure. And let's move then to your advice for young lawyers and law students coming up the ranks. I love asking my guests about this. How about from you, Nic?
Nicole: So I think I'd say we are living in a world of perpetual disruption. You know, we don't know exactly how different the work of lawyers is going to look in two years, five years, 10 years, 20 years time. And so I think it's important to focus on those fundamental human capabilities that are going to sustain you throughout your career, regardless of the many disruptions that you're bound to find yourself embarking upon.
And in doing that, you know, allow yourself to follow your passions and be open to those career pivots, because I really believe that just because you're a lawyer today, doesn't mean that you're constrained to those career paths available to you today. We all need to take ownership of our career. No one else can possibly care about your career as you do as an individual.
And so I think we need to take ownership of our career and not surprising, remain laser-focused on those things that energise you in the choices you make along the way.
Catherine: So good. That is really great advice. And just also finally Nic, I'd love to know if there's anything we've not covered today that you'd like to mention, or perhaps something you've also already said, but you'd like to reemphasise.
Nicole: Yeah, I think that one thing I'd say is from my experience over the years, it's easy to talk about focusing on your passions and what energises you, but in reality, it can be very, very difficult to define exactly what energises us. You know, just because we’re good at something doesn't mean that it's something that energises us.
And so I would say that I don't think we can emphasise enough how important it is to take the time to really connect with the things that energise you, and recognise that that might not be an easy task, because I think that if you're really clear on what energises you and you make your choices around that, then everything else will just fall into place across all dimensions of your life.
You know, I think the future ahead of us is all about choices as we're being talking about. You know, we've been talking about being in a moment of choice and consequence, and I think we do have the opportunity right now to re-evaluate what's important to us, what energises us, so as we can make those choices today, that will position us to thrive moving forward.
Catherine: That is very thought provoking. Isn't it? You know, not always thinking about just because we're good at something, it may not actually energise us. And that could be part of a lot of people's current situation where they think, you know, I'm doing law and I'm really good at law, but is it actually energising you?
So I think you've left us with something very, very thought provoking there. Thank you so much. I am going to head in now to the final super six, which is the quick fire round of six questions I ask every guest to wind up the interview, Nic. And so you have 1 million yen in Japan. Where would you spend it?
Nicole: Oh, that's easy right now. If the borders were open, I would buy all my family plane tickets, bring them over and have the biggest family reunion celebration ever.
Catherine: Wow, that is so good. Amazing. I’d join you on that. Anything else then about a book or a podcast that you have read or are reading that you'd love to share with other people.
Nicole: So if I could think about, I’ll offer three points here, not a book, but I think that Einstein's quote; you can't use an old map to explore a new world, can be as impactful and defining as a book can, you know, I think that that's a good one. Stephen Covey's 7 Habits of Highly Effective People is a book that never ages for me.
I read it at least every three months and I learn something new each time I look at it. So I love that. A more recent publication, Lynda Gratton's book called The New Long Life. And in her book, she talks about our life no longer being structured around the three phases of education, then work, then retirement, but rather continuous transitions between work, learning, and passion projects.
So I really have enjoyed that one as a recent publication.
Catherine: Oh, new long life. It reminds me of The Hundred Year Life book. Is it a little similar to that one?
Nicole: It is the next addition in that series. You know, interestingly, I believe Japan is the country where it has had the greatest sales around the world, both of those two books of Lynda’s.
So, yeah. Amazing.
Catherine: Okay. So she's the same author. That's very interesting. All right. Thank you for that. If you were stuck on a desert island, what would be one item, one person and one food you would take?
Nicole: One item, my good luck charm, and that is a cross that I got from St. Mark's Cathedral in Venice. That is a bit of a family piece that goes everywhere. So I would take that.
One person... oh only one, that's hard Catherine. Yeah on balance, I guess I'd have to take my husband because he is probably the most intelligent and resourceful person I know. And then one food, given the life I've led with very extreme food sensitivities and traveling the world as a global citizen in some very undeveloped countries, I think I'd have to say protein bars. Cause I know that I'd be safe.
Catherine: Oh my goodness. Okay. Protein bars. That'll keep going. A famous person you'd like to meet and I'm thinking I might already know the answer to this, given what you've just said, but tell us.
Nicole: Yeah, I'd probably go back to Oprah Winfrey, you know, just love to understand more about the art of connection that she's mastered and the way that she uses her privileged position as a platform for social impact to make this world such a better place for everyone.
Catherine: True. And how about then your bedside table? What is on there?
Nicole: One very special photo of my family just there on its own, because it just means the world. And so anything near it would just dilute the significance. So, yeah, it's there sitting proudly on my bedside table.
Catherine: All right. And then last question is something about you that others do not know.
Nicole: Oh, wow. Probably all of the listeners have heard all of the things that people normally wouldn't know about me. You know, people would normally be shocked to hear that, you know, I was in genetics, I'd been in IVF, I was a software engineer.
Maybe one thing is that what I love above all else is listening to my son play the piano. He's quite a talented pianist. And so, yeah, that always takes me to my happy place.
Catherine: Oh, that is so lovely. Very, very lovely. Yes. You've told us a lot of things we didn't know about you today, but that is something I didn't know as well. So that's it for today, Nic. Thank you so much for sharing your story and your tips, nuggets of advice. It was so great to connect with you in this way. Thank you so very, very much.
Nicole: Thank you so much for the opportunity, Catherine, it's been a real trip down memory lane and such a privilege to have this time with you. I just admire what you are doing, leading the charge here in Japan, you know, for women in law, and just feel so honored to have had the opportunity to spend this time with you. Thank you.
Catherine: Thank you. It's my delight to do this. I really love, love doing this. It’s a passion project. How can people reach out to you if they'd like to do that? Could they do that through LinkedIn?
Nicole: Absolutely. LinkedIn is always the easiest way to reach me. I love connecting with people on LinkedIn, sharing stories, and hearing what's happening with others.
So encourage all of our listeners to reach out and connect with me on LinkedIn.
Catherine: That’s fantastic. We'll put that connection note in the show notes so that anyone who is interested in you can connect with you on LinkedIn. That's fantastic. Well, I'd like to finish up there, Nic. It has been such a fantastic conversation about so many different things, all hooking into future of work, future of work for lawyers.
And I'm so grateful you could come on and be my fifth lawyer extraordinaire in this season too. And I just want to thank you for being so honest, especially for someone who's just done so, so much and such an inspiration for others. I really hope that people who have been listening today will be inspired by your journey to just go after everything as a passion project.
Thank you so very, very much.
Nicole: Thank you, Catherine. It's just been such a delight. A real treat.
Catherine: And for my listeners, please do like this episode and subscribe to Lawyer on Air and also do drop us a short review as that does help Lawyer on Air be seen and heard by more people. You can actually also go onto my website, find this episode and leave me a voicemail.
I do love hearing your actual voice telling me all about the guests and what you liked about the episode. And we're also now out on YouTube, so you can check us out there. And I really look forward to you giving us some feedback. So please do go ahead, share this episode with another of your lawyer extraordinaire friends and help them to get to know another lawyer extraordinaire on our program, who is leading a wonderful lawyer life.
That's all for now. See you on the next episode, everyone. Cheers, kampai, and bye for now.
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Lawyer on Air was the winner of the Bronze Award in the “Best Podcast by a Kiwi Abroad Category” in the New Zealand Podcast Awards 2021.
Lawyer on Air has been nominated for “Best Business Podcast” in the Quill Podcast Awards, 2021! Thank you to all our supporters who voted for the podcast!