S2 Episode Four: Combining engineering and Japanese with law to create a unique lawyer career with Celeste Koravos
Full transcript follows.
If you have ever wondered how your interests might intersect with a legal career, then this is the episode for you. My guest is Celeste Koravos, not only is she a lawyer but a certified engineer and skilled Japanese linguist. How did she create a unique career with her varied interests and talents? Listen to find out!
If you enjoyed this episode and it inspired you in some way, we’d love to hear about it and know your biggest takeaway. Head over to Apple Podcasts to leave a review and we’d love it if you would leave us a message here!
In this episode you’ll hear:
How Celeste combined law with engineering and Japanese to become a uniquely skilled lawyer
How she used her maternity leave to experiment with combining a “real life MBA” with her love of coffee
How Celeste took responsibility for her career by asking for and getting an international placement that was not on the list
The differences in the legal systems and laws in Japan and Australia
The importance of contributing to your community in any way you can even when you are “busy”
Celeste’s top tips for your legal career
The importance of horizontal versus vertical relationships
Her favourite podcasts, books and other fun facts
About Celeste
Celeste Koravos is a Senior Commercial Counsel, Asia-Pacific, at Maxeon Solar Technologies.
As President of Australia Japan Society of Victoria she is also passionate about contributing to the bilateral Australia-Japan relationship, building relationships, connecting people and creating new value.
In early 2021, Celeste worked as the Director, Directions at COVID-19 Legal at Victorian Government Department of Health. Prior to that she was Legal Counsel at Mitsui & Co. (Australia) Ltd, advising various business divisions and group companies in Australia and New Zealand. She also has extensive private practice experience in leading Australian and international law firms in Melbourne and Tokyo where she advised on complex construction, engineering and large-scale infrastructure projects.
Celeste is also a qualified civil engineer (first class honours) with industry experience including BHP Billiton (coal bed methane), Exxon Mobil (gas and power marketing) and ARRB Group (traffic and transport). Celeste enjoys interfacing technical, legal and commercial aspects of projects.
Connect with Celeste
LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/celestekoravos/
Website: https://ajsvictoria.org.au/
Links
T-Site Bookstore https://store.tsite.jp/daikanyama/
Seven types of ambiguity by Elliot Perlman https://www.amazon.co.jp/Seven-Types-Ambiguity-Elliot-Perlman/dp/1594481431
Connect with Catherine
Linked In https://www.linkedin.com/in/oconnellcatherine/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lawyeronair
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/catherine.oconnell.148
Twitter: https://twitter.com/oconnelllawyer
Transcript
Catherine: Hi, everyone. Welcome to the fourth episode in Season Two of Lawyer on Air. I'm Catherine O'Connell. Today I am joined by Celeste Koravos. Celeste is based in Melbourne in the state of Victoria in Australia, and has a deep nexus to Japan. Celeste is senior commercial counsel Asia Pacific at Maxeon on solar technologies.
They are the global leader in solar innovation. They design, manufacture and sell solar panels, and their products span the global rooftops and solar power plant markets all over the world. Immediately before Maxeon, for over about six months this year in 2021, Celeste took the opportunity to be involved in an interesting timely role as director at COVID-19 Legal at Victoria Government Department of Health.
Before that Celeste had two years as legal counsel at Mitsui and Co, Australia Limited. And it was while Celeste was at Mitsui that I first met her through LinkedIn and we got chatting, leading me to know that I really wanted to record an episode on this podcast with Celeste. I would say anyone who has an affinity to Japan knows Mitsui and Co, which is a huge trading company, headquartered in Japan.
Celeste was at Mitsui's Australian subsidiary for two years. And her role was in advising various business divisions and group companies in Australia and New Zealand, utilising her specialties in infrastructure, construction and energy law. Prior to all of this Celeste had private practice experience in leading Australian and international law firms in Melbourne, including a secondment to Tokyo.
Celeste is also passionate about contributing to the bilateral Australia, Japan relationship. She builds relationships, connects people, and creates new value. As evidence of that, she is current president of the Australia, Japan society of Victoria. And for over two years, she was the Australia, Japan Business Cooperation Committee, AJBCC, future leaders delegate.
And we will hear about her expeditions with those groups during our conversation today. Not only is Celeste a lawyer licensed in the state of Victoria, she also speaks Greek as well as Japanese, and is a qualified civil engineer with first class honours, and has a unique understanding of the interface between engineering and law, being a STEM pioneer before it became trendy.
Celeste tells me that she really enjoys interfacing technical, legal and commercial aspects of projects. So we'll delve into that matrix of skills today. And so Celeste is really a great example to listeners of the podcast, how you can weave together language and outside interests all over our careers as lawyers.
And she also shows us how curiosity in seemingly unrelated areas actually do open up doors to law career opportunities and help us to thrive and excel as Lawyers Extraordinaire. So I'm truly, and really really, truly pleased to bring you Celeste all the way from down under in Melbourne, as my guest today.
Celeste, welcome to the show.
Celeste: Thank you, Catherine. I'm so excited to be here. And, and I think you're also a fine example of weaving different things together to make a piece of fabric that's beautiful. So really happy to be on the show and really honoured to be next in line after such a distinguished list of guests that you've had, who I also really have enjoyed listening to.
So thank you for sharing so many stories.
Catherine: Oh, thank you so much. It's just wonderful. You are one of the pieces of threads in this golden fabric we've got, so I'm so happy to have you.
Celeste: Thank you.
Catherine: Well, today, Celeste, we're going to talk about lots of different things, your wonderful career path, your studies in Australia and in Japan, your pre law industry experience that I think, you can tell me, ignited your passion for energy law and the area where you're working in now.
Also how you're driving to bring Australia and Japan closer, your current senior commercial counsel role. And I know you have a lot of guidance for young lawyers, so I would love you to share those gems of advice for young lawyers on their career path. How does all of that sound?
Celeste: Sounds great.
Catherine: All right. Well, today we are talking online because you are in Melbourne and I'm not there. I'm in Tokyo. And so if we were meeting up in person though, Celeste, where would we be? Do you have a favourite wine bar, cafe or restaurant there in Melbourne that you love to go to? And what is your choice of beverage off the menu?
Celeste: I think if we were drinking wine, I would take you to a place called Embla in the CBD, really lovely wine, cheese, charcuterie. So that's a very nice one to come into and explore some Australian tastes and also some overseas finds. And if we were drinking cocktails and my favourite is Chambord, the French liqueur, I would take you to a place called Trinket, which is really cute and has a special room that you enter via a wardrobe, a cupboard.
So it's almost like a Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe scenario where you open up a wardrobe and you go underground into a lovely little cocktail lounge.
Catherine: Oh, I am totally having goosebumps. The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe is one of my all time favourite books. Oh, my goodness. I can't wait to go there and do that.
The idea of actually somebody taking that book or that idea into creating a wardrobe that goes into another world, that is super exciting. I can't wait. Thank you so much. I'd love to go there. And let's hit there when I can get to Melbourne next. Cause I know Melbourne of course is the big coffee capital of at least Australia, if not the world.
And you used to do, I think you used to do a cuppa academy. Cuppa being a cup of tea or a cup of coffee. You did walking tours around Melbourne with a Japanese barista. Is that right?
Celeste: That's right. And I am sipping a flat white as we speak, so very relevant.
I had a little business a few years ago, which was centred around introducing Melbourne coffee culture to Japanese tourists. And that was quite an area of interest because of the specialty coffee wave that's going on in Japan and has been for a few years. So, it was tours of Melbourne CBD that ran for a couple of hours in Japanese language and they were hosted by a world famous Melbourne based Japanese coffee roaster. And my partner in the business was also a famous Japanese latte artist. And we’d take Japanese guests to various specialty coffee houses and to sample some treats along the way. And it was like a two hour crash course in coffee. So that was a lot of fun.
Catherine: Wow. Have you disbanded that now? Or can we go on that tour when I come and see you?
Celeste: The tour no longer runs, but I'm very happy to introduce you to the team members that could take you out for a coffee. We reached a point where we had to decide whether to scale up or wind it down. We had an offer from an airline to partner to run around 100 tours per year.
And at that time I was finishing my second maternity leave. So I had to make the decision as to whether I returned to my law career or continued with the business. And as much as it was amazing running a business and learning so many things I would never have exposure to as a lawyer, at that point in my life it was very much the legal career that still engaged me and I found the most rewarding.
So we ended that, but a really wonderful experience and learnt a bunch of new things, accounting, building a website, marketing, managing a team of people that were quite different in background and skillset to me, to tourism, health and safety, running these kinds of things.
Really valuable experience.
Catherine: Very valuable and sort of things we never learned in law school. And you know, like me running a business, you only learn it really on the job. So that's really amazing that you've got that experience through that. And there's always another chance in the future to brew something up again, notice my pun of words, brew it up again later in your life.
I think that's just fantastic. And I really wanted to start out with that. Cause I think that's an amazing story of things you can do when you are a lawyer, you have to make a decision at one point, but what an exciting thing to have been doing, I really love that story.
Celeste: Thank you. And you know, we hear this phraseology of real life MBA where you take the funds you might otherwise expend in formal study and actually try out setting up a business. And I think that's what it was for me. It was a real crash course in a lot of different areas. So it was a good learning opportunity. Yeah.
Catherine: Yeah. Real life MBA. You said it, we heard it here first. I love that. Well, I mentioned at the top that we met online during, it must've been lock down in Melbourne and it was sort of semi, light lock down in Japan.
And I think that was when you were still at Mitsui Australia. Cause I remember you had your badge on your tag, around your neck with your ID in it and you had Mitsui on the black and white label I could see on your tag. And we met over LinkedIn. I think you must have commented on a post of mine.
And then we sort of struck up a conversation and I know you were interested in the Women in Law mentoring program in Japan. So I think that's where we officially met. Isn't it?
Celeste: That's right. That's right. It is nice to have that connectivity on LinkedIn. It's particularly boundary free during COVID.
There's just such an opportunity to connect with people, establish meaningful connections, even though it's online. And I've really appreciated, Catherine, chatting to you since that time. And the introductions we've been able to make for each other or advice, et cetera, information sharing. You're kindly joining us for an Australia Japan society briefing, the business leader series, which everyone can find on the AJSB website, or Catherine's LinkedIn page or mine.
So it's nice to network, even though we're locked down or restricted in our movement.
Catherine: I love that idea of boundary free and it really has opened that up. And many people talk about zoom fatigue, and I just, I have to go against the grain and say, I actually love zoom. And it's allowing me to do so much more like launch this podcast.
Also be able to speak with you. I mean, you were in Japan around 2012 and we can go to that story a bit later, but I never met you then. And what a shame that I didn't. Our paths didn’t cross, yet here they are because of this glorious boundary free LinkedIn and online network that we can now utilise. So, you know, for me, that's been fantastic.
And also you've been a great supporter of the podcast and with your nexus to Japan and starting this new role that you're in now, I really wanted to talk to you at this juncture of your career because you're a young lawyer compared to me, but you've had a lot of experience under your belt. And I really think your story is going to be super interesting for younger lawyers and people who really are coming out of law school now, because it's a very tricky time.
I mean, every time it's tricky when you're coming out of law school into a new job, but I think there's just so many more challenges now these days. So I do want to delve into that career shortly, but I would really love to go back to your earlier days, because I do ask everybody what they wanted to be when they were a child.
Mine was a bookstore owner. I love the smell of ink. I love sticking my face into a page and sniffing the ink. So maybe in the future I might be a bookstore owner, and it could be with Pavitra who was our previous guest who loves a bookstore as well. We could end up doing one together, who knows.
But what about you?
What was your story?
Celeste: If you were to own a bookstore. My favourite bookstore is the T-Site in Tokyo. I'm not sure if you've been there. I think it's in Aoyama. But it's a very creative combination of, there's a travel agency, there's a bookstore, it's like a library, stationary, music, cafe, everything.
Catherine: All of my vices in one.
Celeste: That's gorgeous, even a whiskey bar. So what would I be?
Probably similar to you, something to do with the written language. So I was thinking, when I was younger, perhaps a travel writer. I always dreamed about being on that Amazing Race TV show. I'm not sure if you have that in Japan, where you partner up and do obscure challenges around the world. So probably something to do with travel and writing.
Catherine: Ah, okay. So interesting that that sort of is a part of the law. So when did law come up on your radar? Because you were studying at Monash, I know 2004 to 2007, but what led you there to get into the law area? And also I think that ties into engineering, which is probably my next question, but let's go there now.
Celeste: Yeah. I think with law, I always enjoyed the written language, reading, considering, problem solving, advising. That's probably what interested me initially. And then on the engineering side, I commenced both at the same time. I always loved maths and science and technology. So, you know, under the Australian system, you can study double degrees.
So I thought I'd pursue those two different interests. And I also studied a diploma of Japanese when I was at uni because I really loved the Japanese language. And, as you would know, it takes a long time to get up to speed with Japanese. I think it's three times the amount with a script language compared to a non script language for English speakers.
So after six years of Japanese at high school, I really wanted to continue that. And then in terms of where I wound up after university, I did work in several engineering roles as I was finishing off my law degree. And while I really loved that, I felt more aligned with law and I gravitated towards areas of law that overlapped with my engineering interest.
Catherine: Right. So your Japanese language you did at school, what led you into that? Was it because it was quite a big offering at the time in Australia, because I know there was quite a lot of push for Japanese language within both Australia and New Zealand, but is that where it came from?
Celeste: Yeah, I think I was around 12 years old and I had to choose between French, German, Indonesian and Japanese.
And my dad said, how about you do Japanese? It might be good for business one day. So I thought, okay, I'll do that. But you know, like with any language, and I think Australia has struggled a little bit in terms of the outcomes it's trying to achieve with the white paper into the Asian century and improving Asia literacy, it has been a very self-lead task to maintain that interest in Japan. It hasn't been easy. Shows like this didn't exist when I was at university, I didn't know people in that space. So it's very much just taking on new experiences and seeing where they led me. I didn't expect to use Japanese professionally back when I did law, the Australian market was very domesticated.
The firms were all Australian firms. The firm I joined was the first firm in Australia to merge with a global firm. And they offered a program of a secondment to Asia. Japan wasn't on the list, but I asked if I could apply for our Tokyo office and they similarly hadn’t had an Australian secondee before. It was really a lovely experience and I think, set me on my pathway of combining Japanese with my legal career.
Catherine: Amazing. So at the very beginning, you had it as a kind of hobby in a way or as an interest that you had done very very well, but it was put aside. And so your first working roles after you graduated, was that 2010?
Celeste: Yes.
Catherine: Yeah. So they were more in engineering first, then in law. That's right?
Celeste: So engineering roles, I started earlier than 2010 because I finished engineering before I finished law. So I was able to work as an engineer and finish off my law degree. As a graduate of university my first full-time professional role was in law.
Catherine: Oh, right. So you were studying law while you were working as an engineer?
Celeste: Yes. That’s right.
Catherine: How did you do that? Where are you studying at night and then working during the day?
Celeste: Just part-time work. They're very different courses in that engineering was very face-to-face heavy. So I think we had at least 40 hours a week.
There was a lot of group work, which wasn't the case in the law degree. Most things were done in groups. In terms of big projects, there's a lot of laboratory work in technical labs and the computer labs, there's a lot of face time. Whereas with law, there was very minimal face time. I think it was about four to six hours per subject, per week.
And there was significant, you’ve probably experienced Catherine, significant reading hours. I'm not very good at studying in advance. So I was one to always cram the law stuff to the end, but you couldn't really do that with engineering because you had to be at the labs and tick off the boxes and not let your team down.
Catherine: How many women were doing engineering then? Cause it sounds like you may have been ahead of the curve with this. STEM is now very much a part of the vernacular. And a lot of people are talking about getting women and girls into STEM, but at that time were you one of the few female engineers?
Celeste: There weren't many, I would say, maybe 10%. I'm not, I'm not sure of the numbers. It did depend on what stream of engineering you were doing. I did civil engineering. I think that was probably higher than other streams. Environmental engineering was probably the highest, but some of the more traditional types like electrical, had very low female participation.
Catherine: Right. Yes. My dad's a civil engineer.
Celeste: Oh, wow.
Catherine: So I've had an affinity for civil engineering from a very long time ago. So I just admire what you're doing. Cause I know a little bit about what it involves at least from the perspective of my father.
So did someone guide you in that area? You said you had that experience, that interest, should I say, in maths and science and technology. And I mean was there something in your earlier life that made you feel very excited about that area?
Celeste: I think I was very lucky in that I went to a school where it was an all girl school, but there really wasn't a sense of women can't do something because it's historically male dominated. And I think I also had that example from my family in that my parents always encouraged me to do whatever I wanted to do.
So there wasn't that messaging as I was growing up, however, it changes when you enter the workforce and you realise the way things actually are, or even when you're in university. And I think it's there where I learned very clearly that there were differences in the workplace between men and women.
And that's something that initially I approached from an academic perspective studying everything I could, and understanding that area, but also, eventually trying to become a leader in that area myself, and helping mentor and sponsor young people.
Not just women, men as well, in terms of trying to minimize that workplace inequality that still exists both culturally and systemically, often through unconscious biases. Perhaps that's something that led me more towards law than engineering at the time, because it was very clear to me as a young female engineer, that it would be a bit of a struggle.
We mentioned electrical engineering before, and it reminded me, I think it was in the first lecture and there were a few hundred people in there, and my male lecturer said, you there in the pink answer this question. And he kept referring to me as pink lady, and asking me to answer the questions, which I knew the answer to because I was quite good at engineering, but you know, that divide is there.
Catherine: Right. Calling you out like that. But I'm glad he still went back to you as you had the answers, but almost trying to challenge you and put you out in front of others. Maybe it was purposeful and his way of actually demonstrating. Maybe he was doing things from a great perspective. Could have been a positive perspective. Interesting. Very interesting.
And so that kind of engineering background and law, then you went into your first law firm, right? Was that DLA Piper?
Celeste: That was, yes.
Catherine: Right. And so you, did you combine the law and engineering then with becoming the project's lawyer? At that time?
Celeste: That’s right. So I was lucky enough to have a partner that saw the value in the combination. And I think often when you have a weird multidisciplinary background, it really takes someone who can see how the two things work together to actually value it. Catherine, you're an innovator and you probably get mixed responses, I think that was the same in my experience.
I had job interviews where people even went so far as to say, what's wrong with you? Why have you combined those two things? Which is really de-motivating. But I did have a partner that saw that engineering and law went well together when it came to projects law, and a lot of law firm partners and clients appreciate that. So I worked in projects when I was in both of the law firms that I worked at before I moved in-house. So I did what we call front end and back end work. So front end being drafting contracts and doing advice work and backend being disputes. And I think the comfort with technical stuff helped with both.
So on the front end side, understanding the risks of a project helps you draft a better contract, understanding how to read the technical specifications helps you align them better with the contract, understanding the technical side of things helps you draft, for example, a better performance guarantee. Because you know, if the plan has to achieve X, then the drafting needs to say Y. And then on the dispute side, often disputes in projects come down to engineering causes of failure, things like a circuit breaking down or the wrong soil being on site that that wasn't revealed until the thing was built, so often there’s engineering related causes of failure and that’s been a skill I've been able to use.
But I think primarily it's just helped with the ability to talk to non lawyers, and have a conversation that has nothing to do with the law and is all about the project or the potential investment. That's been helpful.
Catherine: Yeah. Helpful to talk with the business people, especially those who are your clients when you're in the law firm, but also in-house right? Being able to talk to the other business people when you go in-house.
But this kind of front end back end, I love how you're dovetailing that together, but we never learn that in law school, right? We learn case law. We know what goes wrong because those cases have gone to court and been argued. But that tying together of what happens at that backend in the litigation scene, into how we do the frontend, I think this is a course in itself at law school that should be taught.
I just don't think we've got that unless we do what you're doing exactly going in and having that opportunity. There's something lacking there, isn't there, in law school I feel.
Celeste: That's right. I think fundamentally you don't even read a contract a lot of the time when you're at law school, I certainly did contract law without seeing a contract.
I think I spent weeks on offer and acceptance, which actually is a live issue in business, but can be something that you spend some time on when there's a few different documents and there's nothing that's signed by two parties and things have, representations have changed along the way.
But yeah, I certainly didn't see a contract at law school.
And in terms of that front and back end feeding into each other, I think that's really valuable. If you know where things go wrong with disputes, you can draft a better contract as a front end lawyer. And then if you have experience with contracts, you can interpret them better in a dispute. So they mirror each other quite well.
Catherine: You're so right. And I think that's really important information that you've given to people who are listening here, because I thought when I came out of law school, I could just be a lawyer. Right? And do the work. But when you first see a contract, it's nothing that you've seen before.
And this is the strange thing, and perhaps for people who are non lawyers listening to this too, is that we do come out of law school knowing a lot about the law, but not the practicalities of law and being able to draft a contract for example. And so I think you've really highlighted something that's important for people to know is that perhaps if there's a chance to do some sort of practical contract work while you're studying, that could be very helpful to do, but just also realise that you'll do a lot of your learning on the job.
Celeste: That's right. And I think to your point about seeing a contract for the first time, we're lawyers so we have a certain level of comfort, but if you can imagine business people, it can be quite intimidating. And, you know, I have in the past been asked to go to this country and train this subsidiary in something quite specific like EPC contracts in this industry.
And then I'll dig a little deeper before I do the training and realise actually I should be training these people first in how to read a contract, and people appreciate the simple information. And I'll go so far as to tell people how to read a contract. Which part should I read, in which order, how is the contract structured?
It might be as simple as read the contents, read the definition so that you get a sense of what's going to be in there, read the annexure, which has all the commercial details because that's the stuff that the parties have negotiated. The contract will generally be set out in chronological order. So it starts with the performance obligation and ends with when things go wrong.
Plus there's the general stuff at the end. And that kind of thing is really important to teach clients because we don't want people feeling uncomfortable with contracts.
Catherine: Exactly, and I think it's very hard to ask the question about contracts. To ask a lawyer, what does that mean? I don't understand. Why is it laid out this way? But if you are being really proactive, and I love that you've done that setting out which parts to look at.
It's not really from the start. It may not be the start. It might be somewhere further down the track, with what they're guaranteeing or what limitations there are, like going to that part before you come back to the other parts. So I really love that you do that with your business people, because maybe not many people think to do that.
They just presume perhaps the knowledge that's inside of our heads is what the business people also know because they've been dealing with sales and marketing and contracts all their working lives as business people, but that's not always true. So stopping and pausing and taking time to help people get up to speed in that way, I think, is a really brilliant approach to your work.
Celeste: Thank you.
Catherine: Right. And so you did come to Japan right? You talked a little bit about it before, the secondment to Japan. And then is that when this language starts to actually take flight because you need it, when you're in Japan? Tell us a bit more about that and taking up that secondment.
Was it offered to you? I think you said there were other options on places to go, but you decided to come to Japan. Tell us more.
Celeste: Yeah, that's right. So my firm, at the time being one of the first to merge with the global firm, offered a global rotation program. And it was offered in relation to offices that were largely English speaking.
But I said, how about Tokyo? And I met with the Tokyo team and they met with me and we thought it would be a great idea. So off I went and I had a great time. I shared an office with two Japanese attorneys who I still keep in touch with today. And the office was a good mixture of Japanese and non-Japanese lawyers.
So I really got a varied experience. And that was for six months. It was pretty generalist. I did most of the work in English, but there was a little bit of Japanese, like a translation of some legislation that the firm was doing, which was a basic act for gender equal society. So a nice one to be translating. And some communications here and there.
And then when I went back to Australia, I really tried to focus on Japanese clients, which was quite difficult as a young lawyer. There's only so much you can do as a young lawyer in terms of steering the interest or direction of the firm. I returned to Japan a few times for business study travel purposes.
I studied a couple of courses. One was called Law in Japan, at Meiji University, that was a course for foreign lawyers. And it was really incredible being with lawyers from so many different countries, to learn about the Japanese legal system. And we did all sorts of interesting things. Like we went into a prison in Japan, visited some in-house legal departments and learned a very broad remit of Japanese law fundamentals.
And the second study experience I had was a program called global resilient leadership run by Waseda and Wharton and Nissan. And that was about leading organisations in a global context through a Japanese lens. So I was the first non-Japanese participant in that course. And I think the other participants might've thought I was a bit crazy because everyone was largely there because they had to be because their company had sent them, but I was there because I wanted to be.
And that was brilliant.
Catherine: Was it during the time you were at Meiji, you were also with the Wharton School and Waseda. Was that the same timing?
Celeste: No, the Law in Japan course was with Meiji a few years earlier. And then the other course, which had the three hosts of Wharton, Waseda and Nissan, was a few years later.
Catherine: Oh, I see. That course at Meiji sounds amazing. To have gone into a prison, I've done that in Okayama area. I went to prisons and also going into Japanese court around that time was also very eye opening. Getting special permission with the lawyer I was with, allowing me to go and sit in court.
It was somebody who had, a criminal who had gone through a window of a woman's apartment and stolen things. But it was very interesting to think, also this happens in Japan. I didn't know this happens. So it’s eye opening. I'm sure it was for you too, to have had that insight, to have gone to a prison, to have seen in-house legal departments.
What surprised you then about that time in Japan and how did that all sort of come into your mind to make you think I want to continue on this path with Japan? Because as you said, getting that interest back into the firm later is quite hard because it's very niche, isn't it?
Celeste: I think what surprised me was perhaps some element of the Japanese justice system that are a little bit hard to swallow as a foreign trained lawyer, in terms of the conviction rate in Japan being so high. Some of the elements of how evidence is gathered or how trials run or not really observing that presumption of innocence that would physically appear differently in other jurisdictions.
For example, seeing that the accused had their feet in slippers, so they couldn't run if they tried to escape, or their hands bound with rope, or things like that. Which I'm not sure if that's still the case today, but it was optically quite different.
And you know, it was interesting that when I did that global resilient leadership course, it was actually centred around the case study of Carlos Ghosn and what he had achieved with Nissan. And he was due to lecture us on the Friday, and then we had news of his arrest on day one or day two of the course, so he wasn't able to lecture us. So it was really interesting to be studying global resilient leadership and then have that happen and see not just how the leadership responded, but how the justice system responded.
And, you know, we've all seen the challenges.
Catherine: The aftermath.
Celeste: Yeah, with how that's gone down. And that was one element that was surprising.
Catherine: Did that course then continue? Did they substitute the teacher or what happened?
Celeste: I'm not sure. I need to look that up actually, because I highly recommend the course for everyone.
So I hope it's still going. That was a brilliant course. And then, so you asked me when I got back to Australia, how did I maintain that Japanese client interest. I think through the firms, but ultimately I really wanted to work in-house for a Japanese company and then I had the opportunity at Mitsui, which was great.
Catherine: Because I think when you came back initially to Melbourne, you were with another law firm, and in a construction group, a business group and a Japan business group. Right? But then you leaped to Mitsui.
Celeste: I always wanted to be commercial and client facing and hands-on.
So I think in-house was a natural progression for me. And in terms of the Japan space, I was really keen to do that, but there were limited roles in Japanese in-house legal departments in Australia. Either they didn't have in-house lawyers in Australia, or they had one for the whole organisation.
So it was very much a waiting game for those kinds of opportunities to open up.
Catherine: So did you watch and wait for Mitsui to come up? Or how did you find that particular role?
Celeste: A combination of me just keeping an eye on the market and also I think five or six different people contacted me when they saw that advert, thinking I'd be suitable for it.
And I knew a few friends at the organisation as well. So it was an alignment of the stars.
Catherine: Great. And what did you like about Mitsui? It would have been an amazing company to work with. And did they bring you to Japan during those two years you were there or were you based really with Mitsui Australia?
Celeste: Yes, I went to Japan, Singapore, New Zealand and all of our Australia offices, which was a fantastic experience.
I learned so many things there. I think it was my first experience with international trade, probably a much broader picture of international investment. The business is so diverse and interesting. So I was advising on things from food, to chemicals, to hydrogen, to coal, oil and gas, wood chips, projects, corporate affairs.
So it was really fascinating and also interesting to contrast the Japanese approach to legal, compared to the Australian approach.
Catherine: Okay. What's one big difference then between Australia and Japan approach?
Celeste: I would say the Australian approach is there's less of a dotted line drawn around legal.
So there's more of a sense of being proactive, strategic, business advisor. Whereas I think in some Japanese in-house legal mindset, it's more about being someone that checks things and offers a check and balance and risk assessment, and green light, red light functions. Whereas I think in Australia, lawyers probably work more hand-in-hand with the business.
Catherine: Okay. And during this time too, you're also really involved in networking outside of the law, like with this Australia Japan youth dialogue, future leaders that you were involved in as well. So how were you maintaining both the work and also finding time for these outside activities?
Celeste: Good question. I've never really thought about it actually.
Catherine: Because you talked about being a mother. So there's also some other points here that are also part of your story, right? Being able to maintain your family life as well.
Celeste: I’ve always had a sense of, you need to always be contributing to your community. So it's not something that I really think about. There's a task that needs to be done. And in our case, with the Australia Japan society of Victoria, it's strengthening the bilateral relationship between Australia and Japan in a Victorian context. And how can we make it happen? How can we pull people together, motivate people, engage with our members, give people opportunities? Being involved in those things has really helped me build my networks, and has found me mentors, and has led to opportunities, and information and understanding.
So, yeah, it's just really being... I don't really think about it. I think it's just a sense of underlying duty to give back and make a contribution.
Catherine: Yeah, it's part of you, isn't it? It's part of you. It's not like it's outside of you, an accessory you put on here and there. It's actually, and I think you're the same as me, it's part of the bloodstream or bones in your body. It's really just a part of you. And I liked how you called it out. We always need to be contributing to community, right? We don't exist in a silo by ourselves. It is part of our life, I think, and our destiny, to be part of the community. And I love the way that you're doing that and keeping up with it and still now, leading this organisation and it must give a lot of joy to you as well.
Celeste: It does. And you know, your point about giving to the community and it being part of the bloodstream. I think probably my best tip for networking is that all you have to do is help other people. And that's really the essence of networking. It doesn't have to be learning your elevator pitch, or choosing the right industry group, or attending enough events, or collecting enough business cards.
It's really just thinking about; I've seen an article, or a job advertisement, or met a contact that might help someone I'll just send it their way. Not expecting anything in return because I can help someone, I'll do it. And that's really the easiest way to network I think, giving back to people.
Catherine: Yes, it's relationship building and we equate the two, but they really are connected. And I love how you've just said helping others is really the essence of networking. You've hit it on the nail. And so I'm going to jump now to where you are at Maxeon because you’ve really only been there a month or so, is that right?
Celeste: That's right. One month.
Catherine: Wow. And just before that, you were with the Victorian government again, as the director of the COVID-19 legal. So just before we go to Maxeon, tell me about that little stint, doing things during what was of course a lock down in Melbourne. We've still got the pandemic raging.
How was that for you bringing in your legal skills to help during this COVID-19 experience?
Celeste: Yeah, that was a really special and once in a lifetime experience as a lawyer, which I don't think I'll ever have again. It was really a chance to do something proactive and to lead and contribute and help an effort that really needs so many hands helping it.
So I was a director in the directions team. Directions are the chief health officer’s, I'll call them regulations, under the public health and wellbeing act under his or her emergency powers. And we had to draft those laws and implement them and advise on their interpretation. It was quite intense.
So I think in six months we probably issued over 200 laws and those laws spanned things like gatherings, mask wearing, rules for workplaces and special industries. Now more so mandatory vaccinations for certain activities and workers, visiting hospitals, visiting aged care, Victorian borders with other states.
So it was a big remit and it was very interesting. It was a lot of stakeholder engagement. So number one is the public health interest. And we also had to balance that against the many other interests that we have in society. We have to work with other government departments, with industry groups.
And interestingly for me, the work was very strongly rooted in human rights assessments. So in Victoria, we have a charter of human rights, which we need to consider every time we make new laws. So we did that every time we so much as changed a sentence in the law, we had to think about the human rights impact, which was something that really added robust governance to the process.
Catherine: Incredible. I'm hearing from you, it's taking your legal skills to the sort of higher and...
Celeste: Extreme lawyering.
Catherine: ...deeper calling, right? Almost what we were destined to be really as lawyers and that really big essence of helping others. How amazing.
And so from there you're moving on to Maxeon. Tell us about how you found that role and about that organisation and what you're doing there now?
Celeste: Yeah. Thanks Catherine. So that organisation is interesting because it's a spin-off of another very long-term organisation called SunPower. So in many ways it's got a lot of history, but at the same time, it's also able to be entrepreneurial and do new things because it's quite young as an organisation, one to two years old, and we manufacture solar cells and panels.
And as you mentioned in your introduction, we have residential applications, power projects, and very interestingly space applications. So putting the cells on a spacecraft, going into space. So it's really, it's a renewable energy company, it’s a tech company. And a lot of the Mitsui experience has been really handy in terms of the international supply chain.
And I'm really enjoying it because I get to work with a lot of different countries and cultures and the job necessitates using my legal engineering skills. There’s a lot of projects work. And even the COVID work has come in handy actually, because you know, all organisations are thinking about how they manage that in terms of the work premises, international travel to countries that are at different stages of their COVID journey, so somehow everything's tied together.
Catherine: And this is what I was saying at the beginning is that this, you would think perhaps that the work with the COVID-19 legal team would not be related to what you're doing now, but what you've done is exactly covering this industry and every other industry right now.
So you've done something that's tied in very, very, completely into what you're doing now. And how about because you're new and have been a lawyer for a long time, are there advantages then to being in a new company? Do you view things every day as day one? And are you trying to hone in different skills now in this new job in order to succeed? Big question.
Celeste: That's a good question.
Catherine: Right? So we've been in lots of different roles, but when we come into a new role, people often talk about the first hundred days and setting their KPIs and things like that. How are you approaching this new role?
Celeste: It's interesting. I think for anyone starting a new role online, you do have to be more proactive about how you communicate with people.
So trying to increase my level of communication with people, because of course I haven't met anyone face to face. We are in a lockdown in Melbourne and have been for a few months.
Catherine: You haven’t met face to face yet? Oh right, yes.
Celeste: So it's quite a different experience. But at the same time, working with people in Asia and the US and France, I wouldn't have met them initially anyway, so it's skills that we all need in terms of working across borders, regardless of whether we're in a lockdown or not.
But I think increasing communication, understanding people's preferred communication style. I never would have been one to think that I'd be giving a thumbs up on Microsoft Teams to approve a legal position or not.
You know, Celeste is this right? Thumbs up. That's my legal advice, the thumb. Of course my legal advice is more detailed when necessary. But what I'm saying is that things are different when you're working remotely, which I'm sure, Catherine, with your legal business, you have to adapt to the client all the time and their preferred working style.
So I think figuring out working styles, figuring out time zones, trying to be respectful of different time zones and not always having someone else sacrifice their time for you or vice versa, learning very widely about the business. So asking for information, asking to be taught things, having a lot of one-on-one meetings with people to talk about topics that might have nothing to do with law, but that you need to understand.
Catherine: Yeah, because those are the advantages of being new in the company, aren't they? Because you can use those first few months to ask any kind of question. You've given quite a long leash, I would say, to be able to ask anything while you're new, and taking advantage of that.
Celeste: That's exactly right.
Catherine: I was going to ask you then next about your advice for lawyers, because I do know that you have a passion for bringing up other lawyers and giving them advice. So tell us about, for example, the wisest thing that's been said to you as a lawyer and perhaps the worst advice, and then your general advice for young lawyers and law students who are coming up out of the law schools and coming up the ranks.
Celeste: I think the best advice I've received is to back myself. It's very simple, but particularly as women, we may lack confidence and feel like we have to be 100% qualified before we can do something. When really it's enough to be 60% qualified. All those kinds of concepts you read in books, like nice girls don't get the corner office. You know, supporting yourself and not feeling like an imposter and just doing it. But I think back yourself is probably the best advice I've had.
In terms of the, the worst advice. I once had a manager that said to me, I had to make someone like me, before I got promoted.
And it was really just impossible with this person to make them like me. Or like anyone else for that matter. That likability penalty that women face in the workplace is just totally unacceptable in 2021. And within reason, of course, everyone has to be kind to each other, but you know, you can't control whether someone likes you or doesn't like you.
That’s really their issue.
So that was really disappointing to be told that I was otherwise more than ready for promotion, but I had to make someone who was not actually related to my promotion like me first. Some of that, there's that stuff that women get that I don’t think...
Catherine: I don't think that would be a male advice and some of the male listeners can tell me later, but I don't think a male would be asked or told you have to be, you have to make someone like you before you're going to be promoted. I don’t think that’s going to happen.
Celeste: Yeah. And I think, some of that, like another sort of gender skewed piece of advice was to smile more at work. I heard that from a male partner, and instead of asking as a young lawyer why I might have been anxious in that setting, and it was because there just wasn't enough billable work coming in. And that was a long term stress on me at the time. Being told to smile more, that was really disappointing. There should've been more questioning around what's going on.
In terms of my advice, I mentioned the point about helping others. I'll just run through a few things. I'd say, do things that are hard and that you have no idea how to do, because that's how you grow.
Don't just keep doing the same thing. I can honestly say that I've never really had a work day where I've done the same thing or repeated the same task. Everything has been different. Do those things that you think you can't do and, and prove to yourself that you can do them.
There's a lot of pressure about goal setting. I would say sometimes let go of that and just focus on doing what's in front of you and doing it well and gaining experience. I think particularly, COVID and the other disruptions of the past few years have taught us that it's really difficult to plan things anyway.
So let go a little bit of the rigidity that we're all expected to do in terms of our performance goals, et cetera. But I think sometimes just focus on what you're doing and doing that well, don't be afraid of failure and rejection, ask questions. So if you've thought of the question, the chances are it probably needs to be asked.
And particularly as a lawyer, if you don't ask a question, it could be dangerous, if you're the one who might be able to speak up about a risk. So always ask a question, even if you're not confident about it. I'd say recognise when it's time to get out. So if you have the wrong boss and your boss is the one that matters, it may be time to leave the organisation and don't stay more than you have to.
It's fine to move on to something new. I'm really glad to see that more of that is happening these days in Japan as well, which you know, is always a challenge with a lifelong kind of employment mindset, that there is more activity in the market.
This one's really special, I think, and was quite groundbreaking for me. It's about the nature of your relationships. So having horizontal rather than vertical relationships, which means that when you deal with people, that they are your equal and you're equal to them. And that can be very hard to, I think, accept particularly in hierarchical societies like Japan, where of course you need to respect the hierarchy and the boundaries that that creates and the experience of others.
But as soon as you start becoming fearful, because someone's more senior to you or vice versa with people doing that to you, you really lose the ability to have honest communication. So I think having horizontal relationships, not being intimidated by hierarchy, being able to talk to people as though they're the same level as you, because everyone is equal to each other in reality, that's really important.
Finally setting your own boundaries because no one else will set your boundaries for you. Learning to say no and getting comfortable with, and this was a fresh way of looking at this for me, getting comfortable with your discomfort when you say no, because we always think that it's going to make the other person uncomfortable, but actually you're probably more worried about your own discomfort. So get used to having that own discomfort yourself.
And finally reading extremely widely. So absorbing as much information as possible from different sources, because it will make you a better lawyer.
Catherine: Wow. Celeste’s golden secrets of success. I think they're brilliant.
And I think if you had the opportunity to call up your past self and offer wisdom to that past self, this would be one of the golden gems, right? This whole bundle you've just given away. Really. If we'd known all of that before we left law school, I think it would be amazing, but sometimes it just takes life's learnings to experience them and know them.
But I think what you've given away there is really amazing. I really quite liked the relationships being horizontal and treating people as your equal and that you are equal to them. I used to think about people who cleaned the office. Always saying hi to them. And if it was a special day of the year, bringing along a little cookie or something for them, but also treating people who were always perhaps seen as somebody who weren't part of the organisation, they were, they felt horizontal to me.
So I feel that people in that way, I did try to do that myself, but there's probably a whole lot more opportunities to be doing that a lot more. So you've made me think about that, remember back, but also think about what else I could do. Wow. Those were wonderful Celeste. Thank you very much for putting your time into that.
Celeste: No worries.
Catherine: They are golden. So I'm going to switch gears a bit there and ask you about your routine, because I know you're a very busy woman there, but what sorts of things get you going in the morning, getting you starting your day on the right foot? And then at the other end of the day, your bookend at the end of the day, how do you close things out?
Celeste: Well, what gets me going is coffee. So I drink a very strong Greek coffee in the morning, which if you've ever had any kind of Greek coffee or Middle Eastern coffee, Catherine, you can't drink the bottom of it. The bottom of it is like mud.
Catherine: I’ve heard about that, this is how the spoon stands up. Isn't it?
Celeste: So I drink my first coffee, I try and listen to maybe five minutes of an audio book or read five pages of a book. I've been trying to do this gratitude journal called five minute journal, sometimes I forget, but I try and do it particularly if I'm not feeling motivated that day.
I will take a sort of 30 second look at what emails might've come in overnight.
But not in detail just to understand if there's anything critical that needs a response before business starts. I try and avoid reading the news these days. In the COVID role, everything I was working on was in top headlines every time I opened the news. So I try and reduce my news intake because I'm just so familiar with that area now, and I think I just have to roll with it a little bit, and I prefer to check news later in the day.
Before business starts, I'm generally focusing on my children, getting them ready for kindergarten or childcare or school. Then during the workday, I've got my meetings in my calendar and I've got my son's school meetings. So he has three school meetings a day. With this lockdown children haven't been at school for a few months, so he's at home. So I try and make sure I can help him log on to his meetings or get whatever materials he needs. Depending on what restrictions are like in Melbourne. I might have my second child at home as well, depending on where the kindergarten and childcare is open or not.
So the past couple of years I've had a lot of guest appearances with children at my business meetings.
Catherine: Your coworkers.
Celeste: Coworkers. Yeah. It's actually sometimes a really nice indication of a gauge of what the person on the other end of the call is like. 99% of the time people are great, but you know, the 1% of the time that they're not, you think maybe that's someone I don't want to be doing business with.
After work, getting dinner with the children and then either half passing out as I put them to sleep or staying awake and reading is my typical routine.
So the bookend of the day is typically a book or a couple.
Catherine: And I love that first five. I think it was my friend, Jennifer Shinkai, who talked about the first five. Which is that first five minutes of the day, or the first five things that you can do, such as you said, reading five pages of a book, five minutes in a journal, five minutes listening to an audio book.
So I think that that first five routine is something that I also adopt and try to do that as well, and not just do it for a short time, but make it part of the day. That's your gift to yourself. And I love that. Thank you so much.
Wow. Okay. So how would you describe yourself then? Say one of your most famous traits that you have.
I'm often saying to my guests resilience. I can hear a lot of resilience in there and persistence. How about yourself? What sort of traits do you think you have that you'd like to call out?
Celeste: I guess I'm curious. So I always like to understand things, ask questions, understand things deeply, understand a variety of things.
Probably why I'm always reading, I'm always listening to things, I always have five or six different books going at the same time, too many windows open on my screen.
Catherine: Yeah. But keeping curious. Right? And self-development.
Celeste: Yes. I like to think I'm empathetic, but of course I always have to continue to work on that.
One thing children have taught me is patience. I didn't realise how impatient I was until I had children and having children, things really can be a totally different pace and a totally different worldview, which is a really nice contrast, but that's helped me try to develop my patience.
Catherine: Well, they’re a great trio, curiosity, empathy, and patience. I do like those. It's amazing. I can see those and knowing you, definitely you are exhibiting especially curiosity. I've seen a lot of that from you in the last few months that we've known each other.
Celeste: Thank you.
Catherine: Anything today that we didn't cover that you'd like to talk about or anything that you did talk about that you'd like to reemphasise?
Celeste: Not about me, just to say thank you to you, Catherine for running this. You're very much a game changer in this space. So I've really learned from your previous guests and from the podcast that featured you. So thank you for sharing the stories.
Catherine: Oh, that's lovely. It's just such a joy, joyful passion for me in my business now.
So I just, I love doing it. And so I thank you for saying that. So let's head then into the super six, the final super six or quick fire round of six. I haven't actually decided if it's seven questions. It might be seven that I ask each guest to wind up the interview.
And the first one is around cash. I have a million yen in cash to give you, of course, all very compliant with the laws and rules. If you had that in Japan coming over here, where would you spend it, your favourite store here in Japan, or perhaps if you want to convert it to Aussie dollars, that's fine as well and go somewhere in Australia.
Celeste: If I had money to spend on something purely self-indulgent in Japan, I would go to an onsen for a week.
Catherine: Lovely. You talked about reading books and listening to audio books, can you share an audio book or one of those five or six books you've got on the go? Something that you've listened to recently, read recently or would like to just talk about there?
Celeste: Yeah. A friend of mine recommended one called Seven Types of Ambiguity. I don't often read Australian literature. I tend to read a lot of Japanese stuff actually, but this was brilliant.
It's written by an ex lawyer and it's about a man who kidnaps his old flame’s child in a bid to try to reconcile with her and all the chaos that follows after that. And it's a psychological thriller. It's set in Melbourne and it's written by a lawyer, or ex lawyer. It's really brilliant and full of ambiguity and different interpretations. So I'd highly recommend that.
Catherine: That sounds interesting. Very good. I hope we can get it on Amazon or somewhere very close to us. That's lovely. Thank you for that. Is there someone famous then, Celeste, that you've met before? Or you'd love to meet?
Celeste: It's funny you say that someone famous I've met before, I think the first famous person I ever met was Ricky Martin, the singer. And my sister is at a Ricky Martin concert at the moment, and called me, she's in the US, she called me to try and live stream during this podcast. I'm going to have to call her back after this.
Catherine: You’ll have to get off quickly, you can't miss out on Ricky.
Celeste: The only time I've ever missed school was to meet Ricky Martin and it was worth it because I did get to kiss him. But in terms of someone I would meet now, I'd probably say I would be very interested to meet Haruki Murakami, who is my favorite author. I just love his literature.
Catherine: Oh, wonderful. Thank you very much for that. I'm still thinking about Ricky. All right. Bonus question then. What is something about you that a lot of people don't know?
Celeste: I've told you my embarrassing Ricky Martin story.
Catherine: Yeah. That's something that I didn’t know until now.
Celeste: I really love flower arranging and indoor plants. So I studied a bit of Ikebana in Tokyo and I love indoor plants. I'm trying to find a palm tree to put next to my bed at the moment. Because I saw that in an interiors book recently and I’ve fallen in love with the idea. So I'm looking for a native Australian palm tree to grow in my bedroom at the moment.
Catherine: Fantastic. What kind of Ikebana did you do? I did Ohara Ryu.
Celeste: Yeah, same one.
Catherine: There we go. We both have done the same genre of Ikebana. How interesting.
Celeste: We'll have to take a class together at some point.
Catherine: We will. I would love to do that. Gosh, that'd be interesting. I do know there are some classes in Melbourne too. Interesting. Well, Celeste, we have come to the end. It's time for you to go back and see Ricky Martin live stream, through your sister.
You really have had such a solid and I think unique career, niching down into this engineering and law and language and leveraging all of those throughout your life and your career to survive and thrive so far.
And you've really shared an amazing story, insights and nuggets. That list of golden success items is just fantastic. And we're going to have to obviously make sure that we share that very largely and widely. Can people connect with you on LinkedIn or in any other way?
Celeste: Yes, please. LinkedIn would be great.
Catherine: Great. Well, we'll put that in the show notes, your LinkedIn page, and have people connect with you there. And so I will finish up here. I really thank you for being my fourth guest on this Season Two. And for your sharing, your honesty and openness. It really has been very amazing. I do hope that listeners will like this episode, subscribe and continue to listen as well, to lawyer on air. And do drop us a short review, because that really does help us to be seen by more people and for stories to go further afield.
And my webpage does have a voicemail option. So you can actually leave me a voicemail telling us about how you enjoy the show. And we're also out on YouTube right now too. So I do hope everyone will go ahead and share this episode as I said and help someone else to be inspired to live a wonderful lawyer extraordinaire life.
That's all for now. Thanks Celeste.
Celeste: Thank you, Catherine. It was an absolute pleasure.
Catherine: Thank you. And we'll see everyone on the next episode. Cheers, kampai and bye for now.
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