From art curator to construction law with Hojung Jun
A full transcript follows.
How do you become an art curator but then become a lawyer working in construction law? Hojung Jun shows us how you can take time to discover your niche and come to love the law by finding exactly where it suits you to work in this incredibly vast industry. She shows us a fascinating side of the construction industry and how it can be complex, exciting and international.
If you enjoyed this episode and it inspired you in some way, we’d love to hear about it and know your biggest takeaway. Head over to Apple Podcasts to leave a review and we’d love it if you would leave us a message here!
In this episode you’ll hear:
How Hojung defied expectations to become an art curator in New York before pursuing her law career
How she found her way from art law and IP to construction law and is loving it
How she transitioned from law in Korea to Japan and the differences between the two countries
How a certain focus group became a room she hosts on Clubhouse
Her favourite books and other fun facts
About Hojung
Educated at Ewha Woman’s University in Korea and the University of Illinois College of Law, Hojung obtained her JD in 2009 and was admitted to the New York bar in the same year.
As a New York qualified lawyer and experienced all around the globe, Hojung regularly advises on and negotiates complex construction agreements, subcontracts, concession agreements, joint venture agreements and partnership agreements in relation to infrastructure, power and mine development projects. She does this for major Japanese and Korean companies - both on the investor and contractor side.
Her recent focus also includes renewable energy (such as solar, wind power and battery storage) and digital transformation.
After finishing her undergrad, Hojung started her career as an art curator in Washington DC organizing exhibitions for museums and galleries and working with various international artists, and then she went to law school in Illinois.
During law school, Hojung had the unique experience of summer interning at the Permanent Mission of Korea to the United Nations in New York in 2007.
She’s also had in-house experience from 2010-2014 working for a major construction company in Korea.
She moved to Japan in 2014 and joined another international law firm before Baker & McKenzie. She has been seconded to Tokyo Gas and is now currently seconded to Toyota Tsusho Corporation.
Connect with Hojung
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/hojungjun/
Website: https://www.bakermckenzie.com/en/people/j/jun-hojung
Links
Clubhouse: https://clubhousedb.com/club/396908948-legal-bento-box
Le Pain Quotidien: https://www.lepainquotidien.com/jp/ja/#.W1kgoGD7SM8
Connect with Catherine
Linked In https://www.linkedin.com/in/oconnellcatherine/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lawyeronair
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/catherine.oconnell.148
Twitter: https://twitter.com/oconnelllawyer
Transcript
Catherine: Hi, everyone. Welcome to another episode in Season Three of Lawyer on Air. I'm the host of the show, Catherine O'Connell. Today I'm joined by Hojung Jun. Hojung is currently a senior associate in Baker & McKenzie’s Tokyo office. She currently leads the office’s construction focus group, digital transformation focus group, and DNI sub committees regarding work-life balance, race and ethnicity issues.
Baker & McKenzie advises international and domestic companies on a full range of legal and business issues in Japan and overseas. Baker & McKenzie’s origins in Tokyo date back to the early 1970s, when the Tokyo Aoyama Law Office was first established in Japan as an associated office of Baker & McKenzie. Baker & McKenzie Tokyo is just celebrating its 50th anniversary in Japan.
Educated at Ewha woman's university in Korea and the university of Illinois college of law, Hojung obtained her JD in 2009 and was admitted to the New York bar in the same year. As a New York qualified lawyer, and experienced all around the globe, Hojung regularly advises on and negotiates complex construction agreements, subcontracts, concession agreements, joint venture agreements, and partnership agreements in relation to infrastructure, power and mine development projects.
She does this for major Japanese and Korean companies, both on the investor and the contractor side. Her recent focus also includes renewable energy, such as solar, wind power and battery storage, and also digital transformation. After finishing her undergrad, Hojung started her career as an art curator in Washington, DC, organizing exhibitions for museums and galleries and working with various international artists.
And then she went to law school in Illinois. During law school Hojung had the unique experience of summer interning at the permanent mission of Korea to the United Nations in New York in 2007. She's also had in-house experience in 2010 to 14, working for a major construction company in Korea. And she moved to Japan in 2014 and joined another international law firm before Baker & McKenzie.
She was also seconded to Toyota Tsusho Corporation in 2017. And is there on secondment currently I believe. And she also had another secondment to Tokyo Gas in 2019. Well, you can tell that Hojung has really ticked all the boxes of the full circle of lawyer experience in law firms on secondment and working in house.
And not only that, Hojung is also an author and speaker. She's published two international construction and energy law textbooks in Korean. She's also been published in law journal articles on cross border investments in the power sector and on and off shore wind power development. Hojung and I also worked together voluntarily on the EXCOMM of the women in law, Japan group. Hojung is also on clubhouse as host of the DX legal bento box. This sounds like a great initiative, bringing a bit of fun and innovation to the law. And I look forward to hearing more about that today. Hojung is a trilingual speaker of English, Korean, and Japanese, and she is the mum to her son.
And so I hope to hear more too about how Hojung is managing to balance all of this work and life. Well, as you can tell from that massive introduction, Hojung Jun is very much a lawyer extraordinaire. I'm very pleased to bring her as my guest today. Hojung welcome to the show.
Hojung: Hi Catherine, thank you so much for having me today. And it's an absolute pleasure. I mean, as I mentioned to you briefly before I've been waiting for this exact moment.
Catherine: I'm so excited today and we're going to be having lots of fun. I know you're excited. So we're going to be talking about your career path, the influences that you've had along your journey, how you came to Japan, your work and life in Japan. I'd really love you to also give us some of your tips and ideas for the next generation of associates who are coming up the ranks behind you.
How does that sound?
Hojung: Yeah, that sounds great. Thanks.
Catherine: Alright. So we are talking offline, online actually, aren't we? We're not offline, we're online. So we are talking online today, but if we were meeting up in person Hojung, and I hope we can do that soon, do you have a favourite wine bar or cafe or restaurant that you love to go to? And what's your choice of beverage off the menu?
Hojung: Oh, well actually, there is a cafe called tLe Pain Quotidien. they have various locations in Tokyo as well, but I like the one in Shiba Koen. It really reminds me of my time in New York city. It was one of my favourite branch places. The other one is a Spanish place with unlimited Sangria.
Yeah, but this place, I usually went with my friends so many times on the weekend and I love their latte with a huge bowl. Like it's a really, really big bowl. You can even wash your face out of it.
Catherine: Oh, wow. Have you been there recently?
Hojung: Yeah. Very recent, like two weeks ago with my friend and son. And we can go to the Shiba Koen with a lot of flowers. It was really nice.
Catherine: Wow. That sounds lovely. Well, I've done my research on you because I went back and did a Google search of when I first connected with you and it was on email. And I don't know if you remember, but it was when I was the foreign woman lawyers association membership director, and you wrote to us in 2013 and said, please add me to your mailing list. I'm an overseas member.
So maybe at that time you were in Korea?
Hojung: Exactly. Well, yes, I was gonna mention that today too. It was before even women in law, Japan. So in 2013 I got married to my husband who is Japanese and I was looking to move and FWLA really connected me with you and Claire Chino.
Catherine: Claire Chino. Yes.
Hojung: Right. And Laurie.
Catherine: Yes.
Hojung: And Royanne.
Catherine: Yes. And Royanne too. I also wanted to go back to your early, early days because before we dive into your career, and I'm going to ask you about your mom also in a moment, but can you remember when you were a child, what you wanted to be?
Hojung: I knew I wanted to be a medical doctor because it's all because of the influence from my mother's family. Cause my grandpa was a doctor, my grandma is a pharmacist and my aunties are nurses or dentists. So they are all in med and I'm the only one who did law, but you know, actually that's why my parents really wanted, I mean, when I entered university my parents told me to consider the law because we have no lawyer in our family.
Catherine: Oh, I see. So they wanted you to be a lawyer because there wasn't one. You've covered everything else almost, with the other professions that your family had. How incredible. So you wanted to be in medicine, and then I know your mum has really played a major influence on you. So tell us a little bit about your mum, the life that she had, that really impacted you to be a role model for you.
Hojung: You know, she's now in her late sixties.
Hojung: She is a pharmacist, as I mentioned, and she has been working since she was 23. And the only time she didn't work was when I was born. She was on maternity leave for three or four months and then one day she thought, if I keep staying home, I'll be a monster.
So that's when she started her career again. And since then, she never thought she would quit. And she keeps saying that she will not retire. She really enjoys her work and her interaction with her patients and other professionals. And when I was young, she never told me to study or anything, but she always told me, this is your life. So you will be responsible for all the consequences.
I was only seven or eight, and that statement was so scary. I'm like, oh, if I don't study now I have to be responsible for my failure. So that really encouraged me. It scared me, but also motivated me to work really hard.
Catherine: Oh, was she speaking from her own experience, do you think? Or was she thinking more about you and wanting you to be the best you could be?
Hojung: Actually her parents had a lot of expectations on her, so she was really stressed and she was the first kid in her family, same as me. So she didn't want to give me that pressure.
Hojung: But in fact, I knew she trusted in me so much, I had to do well.
Catherine: I see. And so you're now a working mother and your mum was a working mother. So did you just see her managing her life and work and wanted to be like her? Or are you a little bit different in the way that you lead your working and life as a mum?
Hojung: Well, she has her own pharmacy. So it's slightly different from me, you know, working in a company or law firm. And she also had a lot of support. So when I was young, I never saw her cooking or cleaning or doing laundry at all. She always had help, but I did see she sacrificed her career for family because she could have pursued an even more so-called prestigious path, but she stayed with her own pharmacy so she could be with us all the time. And yeah, her pharmacy was almost like my playground. I always went there after school, whenever I had trouble, whenever I wanted to see her. And then I was just there with her patients, so everyone knew me. So it was a little bit different from my experience, but still I think how she managed her career involved some of her sacrifice, and then I actually see the same thing happening to me.
Catherine: Mm, how is it happening to you in the same way?
Hojung: Maybe it's not really sacrifice, but yeah. I mean, when I see my son, I love him so much and I want to spend more time with him. So, you know, not like, “Bari Bari” lawyer, I had to turn down some work and, you know, say no to requests.
Hojung: So that part you could see as a sacrifice a little bit.
Catherine: So not going for it for everything. Not going, going, going for it with the “bari bari” lawyer you're talking about, but just edging back a little bit in order to spend some time with your family, with your son. Yes?
Hojung: Exactly.
Catherine: I see. Wow. So you studied first back in Korea, at Ewha women's university.
What did you study there?
Hojung: Well, I studied law..
Catherine: Oh, did you? You did law there?
Hojung: Yeah,
Catherine: Was it a certain kind of law?
Hojung: No actually, like Japan before, in Korea they have law undergrad as well. And now there is JD, but there was nothing like that before. So it was just general law.
Catherine: And how long does it take to qualify or to get through that university course in law in Korea?
Hojung: University itself takes four years. And then you have to pass the bar at that time. But now they’ve changed the system just like Japan or the U S.
Catherine: Right. So you passed a bar in Korea as well?
Hojung: When I first entered university, I had this particular conversation with my dad. Cause I know my dad, I knew he would tell me to take the bar exam. And I told him upfront, I am not going to do that. And I know I'm not the person for that test, sitting and studying for so long.
I told them I won’t do that. And then he said, okay, so still, you know, you can go to law school. That was our deal.
Catherine: Wow. Really? Gosh. So I guess then when you did finish your undergrad and you started your career, not in law, but in the art world as a curator in Washington, DC, organising exhibitions and doing that kind of work, how did that land with your dad?
Hojung: Exactly. So actually I minored in art history too.
And growing up, my mom always loved art and she brought us to all the exhibitions and the performances and plays. And I was naturally interested in art, but I didn't know there was a major called art history. And then my university is really famous for art history.
And actually, this is the best women's university in Korea. And they started female studies, and art, you know, performance art. So it was very famous for that. And as soon as I learned that major, I'm like, oh my God, I'm doing this. And then I minored it and my grades in art history were always very good.
And my mom didn't want to show my transcript to my father because compared to art history, my law grades are not very great. And she's like, daddy will be really, really mad. She didn't show my transcript to my dad for a few years.
Catherine: Ooh.
Hojung: And then when I told him about, you know, when I was about to graduate, I told him I'm going to the US to start as an art curator, or even go to graduate school in art there.
And he's like, have you lost your mind? What are you going to do? You will not make any money and you'll just be a loser, blah, blah. He was really, really angry. I still remember that evening. I told him I was going to the US and then he slammed the door in front of me and he went to his room. Yeah, until then, he never said no to what I told him I wanted to do, especially my parents really raised me just equal to boys.
So I thought I was capable of doing anything, but that was the only time he was really, really worried and angry.
Catherine: Wow. I dunno if he's talked to you since then, did he mean to be angry and annoyed then? Or did he just react? He just wanted the best for you. It was coming from a good place.
Hojung: Oh, yeah, he was worried because I'm the only daughter and, you know, daughters, he thinks girls have to be protected. And he loves me so much, so he didn't want me to go anywhere. But then once I started my career, he was actually really proud. So he tells everyone, my daughter is a lawyer working in one of the biggest law firms.
Catherine: And you are. And so how long were you in Washington DC doing that work with the museums and galleries?
Hojung: My initial plan was to become an art lawyer.
Catherine: Oh.
Hojung: Yeah. So that's how I persuaded my father.
Catherine: Right.
Hojung: I wanted to experience art for a year. And then I already had my admission to my law school. So I was going to school, but I really had a lot of fun with artists.
Catherine: I bet. And I mean, did some of that law come into that role with negotiating with the artists to bring them into the galleries and that kind of thing? Was there something about your law and art mix that really worked well with that particular adventure that you were on then?
Hojung: Since I joined the construction industry, I haven't really had that opportunity, but I mean, on the side, like talking or in conversation, people are always surprised that I have an art background.
Catherine: Yeah, I would think so. Is there something you learned or experienced then that helps you now, serves you well as a lawyer?
Hojung: Yeah, I think I am probably more familiar with diversity, like different people, you know. Artists think completely differently from lawyers.
Catherine: Right, for sure. So do you think you have a bit of an artistic or creative brain side of you that works also now within the law firm that you're in?
Hojung: I have thought that I'm not creative. That's why I probably did art history, not art itself. Actually, when I was young, I was painting and all those things, but I stopped because I knew that I didn't have that talent.
Catherine: Well, I think art law sounds really exciting. I haven't heard anybody do that before, so I think that's quite unique about you. But you did take yourself off then to Illinois college of law. So this is obviously when law sort of comes to you and you have to do it. And were you thinking of your father then?
Or were you thinking it's time for me to now go and do my law properly, shall we say, at Illinois college of law? Tell us about that period then.
Hojung: Yeah. So in law school, because I wanted to become an art lawyer, I focused on IP and commercial contracts. And I enjoyed it very much.
And you know, that's where I met my husband as well.
Catherine: So you met him in New York?
Hojung: No in Illinois.
Catherine: Sorry. Yes, of course you were studying at Illinois, but you were admitted to the New York bar. So you met him at Illinois college of law?
Hojung: Yes. So he was sent by the Japanese government, and he was there for a year.
Catherine: Wow.
Hojung: That’s how I met him. But to be really honest, I didn't really enjoy studying cause I was really lonely, especially after my husband left after one year, I was so lonely and desperate.
And again, my mum and my husband always talked to me whenever I called them. And they advised and emotionally supported me. So without them, I couldn't go through my JD program. It was really tough because I enjoyed interacting with all these international students, really interesting people, but most of the American law students, they wanted to be a lawyer since they were super young.
And they always watch, like law and order, dramas and soap operas. They're so familiar with this argument, and being an advocate. Whereas I was like, I didn't want to be a lawyer from the first place and I was into art. So it was so different. So I had a lot of hard times during law school.
Catherine: Yeah, it sounds like you had to fight your feelings inside in order to be quite driven to continue to study and then take the bar. I mean, that must have been really quite hard.
And then during that time you were doing the summer interning at the permanent mission of Korea to the UN. How did that come about?
Hojung: So my professor in Korea, he was also a visiting scholar and also a visiting professor at university of Illinois college of law. And he was previously a diplomat.
Catherine: Mm.
Hojung: He had a lot of friends at the permanent mission, so he recommended me to that position. And also he knew that I wanted to join either UN or UNESCO, to protect the cultural heritage.
Catherine: I see.
Hojung: I worked at the sixth committee, which is the kind of legal department or like where all the conventions and treaties are made.
Catherine: Wow. Okay. How come you didn't stay there or continue with the UN? What made you continue to go elsewhere rather than stay with them?
Hojung: That's a good question. Cause I thought the UN, where all different people are working together and they're very, very brilliant, so I thought it would be different. But it seemed like just the government, another government, and very, very bureaucratic. Yeah, it was also very political, which I was not very interested in.
It was all about lobbying. Of course, you know, if you're legislating law, even in Congress, you have to persuade everyone, and meet a lot of people and then take them to your side. That was a bit too overwhelming for me.
Catherine: I don't know why, but I've got this sort of image of a pinball machine, that you've got this law study, you've got art, you've got the UN stuff coming around. It's like a ball pinging around. And I'm wondering where suddenly, or perhaps gradually, you decided that law was really what you wanted to do. Is there some point where that happened?
Hojung: Actually, you know, studying itself was really fun. I liked the subject matter. It was just that I had to compete with smarter students. Also another thing is that English is not my mother tongue. So I had a lot of hard times with that as well. And also the education system or style in the U S is completely different from Korea. In Korea, in law school, you don't get to say anything, you just listen to your professor's lecture and you take notes and you take the exam, and that's all. But in the U S, you have to participate in the discussion and you have to summarise what you read overnight, you know, all this case law, it was very different.
Catherine: Right. Okay. So you did like the study of law. So what happened then after you'd finished your JD? Did you come to Japan then to come and join your husband?
Hojung: I actually wanted to stay in the US, actually I'll get back to this point later, but I didn't think I would live in Japan at all. So I wanted to stay in the U S and I was looking for a job, but right at the time it was the Lehman shock in 2008, right before I was graduating and looking for a job. I had many interviews with big law firms in New York, but then none of them went through because suddenly there was the Lehman shock, so nothing moves, there was a hiring freeze.
It was really, really tough at that time. And also, I was so into IP or art law in New York city, which is a bit too narrow for a first year lawyer out of law school.
If I go back and if I can give advice to myself, I would say, don't be too picky. Just explore other areas, even though you may not be interested at that time. But at the time I was so into IP, I only was looking for IP practice or IP group and it narrowed down. And then from Illinois to New York city, it was very difficult because my school was really well known in the Chicago area or Illinois area, but not in New York city.
So that made things even harder, but I didn't want to give up, so I just kept thinking of IP law and New York city.
Catherine: Did you take the bar exam then in New York city itself?
Hojung: Yeah.
Catherine: I see.
Hojung: I was doing some kind of summer job in Chicago and prepared the New York bar in Chicago and then flew to New York city to take the bar exam.
Catherine: And you got it, right? And then what happened?
Hojung: Without having a job, I anyways moved to New York city because that's where I wanted to live forever. It was tough, but I was lucky to have a friend who helped me advise artists. She's an alumni of my law school in New York city. And she had the similar dream with me. She wanted to become a fashion business owner as well as a lawyer.
And she's much senior than me, but she was kind enough to offer me some kind of work. And she taught me how to do legal research and advise clients. And we advised various artists on trademark and copyright basically. But even then, even in New York city, IP was all about patents, you know, that's where you make money.
I mean, artists are not, at least the artists that I was dealing with, were not very rich. So the legal fee was too much for them if they worked with the big law firms. So we, as solo practitioners, were able to support them, but I knew that it's going to be tough for me as well to make a living if I was only supporting artists.
Catherine: You didn't think then of both of you doing fashion business law and art law together as a small boutique firm?
Hojung: I was too young. I was only fresh out of law school, I didn't know anything. But now that friend of mine is a successful business owner, fashion business owner in New York, and she's also a lawyer. So then I, to make living, I joined a small law office handling real estate and immigration transactions.
Catherine: Okay. So your husband's still in Japan though, right?
Hojung: Yes. We did long distance for 7, 8 years.
Catherine: Oh my goodness.
Hojung: Yeah, now I can not even think about being away from him, but that's what we did.
Catherine: There you go. I just can't believe it. That you did have that period of time away from each other and you just travelled back and forth, both of you. Wow. And then you finally did come to Japan though. You found a role and you came over to work at an international law firm here.
Hojung: Yeah, but I didn't come to Japan. It took like five more years for me from New York.
Catherine: Tell us about that.
Hojung: Yeah. So when I was practising in New York, everything was about New York. And the US is the centre of the world, so they are not interested in outside of the US. They really think, oh, the world has to run by our rules. I didn't like that. And I wanted to do more international deals.
And until then, I didn't know Korean companies were so active all over the world, so I quit my job. And at that time, my partner asked me a few times whether I would be regretting it because he could give me a green card in the US and he really liked me. But I’ve never regretted it. I returned to Korea and I joined this construction company.
I enjoyed the work so much, and my colleagues. I travelled all over the world. And I never thought about joining construction, I always wanted to do art or fashion, so it was really different. But you know, the work itself, it was really fun. And my deals were at least $1 billion, something like that. So on a big scale.
Catherine: Right. But you talked about being very focused on trademarks and IP copyright, and then suddenly you're broadening into construction. What's going on? How did that happen?
Hojung: I know, right?
Catherine: Yeah, what's happened that your mind has gone broader?
Hojung: I guess at that point I realised, yes, I do like art, I was interested in intellectual property, but also as a junior lawyer I have to learn basic corporate and contracts. Right? And then also there were a lot of opportunities in Korea when I returned. But construction was really international. So it was so much fun. At first I was also doubting, would I really like construction? But actually I enjoy it so much. And now I don't really think about IP anymore. Of course I love art and I still go to galleries and meet artists, but I enjoy my practice area very much.
Catherine: What is it about construction that you like?
Hojung: The scale, and you get to travel all over the world and meet different people. And another thing is that as you get better in one area, you get to like it. Construction is very, very complex and there aren't so many people who are practicing construction law.
So as time goes by, I just get to know more about it and then I am getting better and I'm more confident and I enjoy doing it.
Catherine: And maybe working in the construction company itself, you were right at the coalface or right in the middle of things. And so perhaps that was really part of the enjoyment to be with a company that was doing it day by day, as opposed to being in a law firm that was advising construction companies.
Is that some aspect that also was enjoyable for you?
Hojung: As a junior lawyer, I was really lucky to handle this really big transaction in Australia. This was an iron ore mining project in Western Australia. So I travelled to Perth so many times, like more than other Australians. Seriously. You know, the total time I stayed in Perth was like eight months or so.
And this was the biggest investment ever in this company's history. And it was like, 5, 6 billion Australian dollars, and I was the only lawyer in the project team. And because it's such a significant investment, the CFO, CEO, they directly called me and wanted to talk to me about all the risks. So that gave me a lot of autonomy.
So I think the difference between in-house and private practice is that even if you are a junior lawyer, if you are in-house you have a lot of autonomy, and you are the general counsel to this project. And luckily for me, the first project happened to be such a big deal, and it was so famous that it gave me all the opportunities in the future as well. So I enjoyed that very much I think.
Catherine: How's your mum and dad thinking at this time, when they see you working as hard as you are and enjoying it? What are they saying to you at the time?
Hojung: Actually the funny thing is that this is the company where they worked too.
Catherine: Oh, is that right?
Hojung: Yes. It's the biggest steel maker in Korea and also the third biggest steel maker in the world. And this is the construction arm of that group. And actually the CEO was a friend of my father and mother, but I didn't get into that job just because I knew them.
I mean, they didn't know I was applying even.
Catherine: How interesting.
Hojung: Yeah, I had really hard interviews and things, but anyways, I got in. And then they were so surprised that I was joining the company. And the CEO and vice president were talking, did you know that Hojung is joining? I didn't know that. We have to call him, call the father.
Catherine: Wow.
Hojung: Yeah, so I enjoyed that I grew up with this company when I was young.
Catherine: How long were you there for?
Hojung: Four years.
Catherine: Okay. Four years. And that takes you through to what year?
Hojung: 2010 to 2014. Yeah. That's when I finally moved to Japan.
Catherine: Okay. You finally moved to Japan.
So you joined an international firm here for a little while and then moved over to Baker & McKenzie. So how was it different working in Japan compared to where you were in South Korea?
Hojung: Oh, Catherine. It was such a transition. It's not only because I changed countries, but also going from in-house to private practice.
Catherine: What was different?
Hojung: So in terms of the country, although Japan and Korea share a lot of similar cultures. once I started speaking Japanese more fluently, I made a lot of Japanese friends. But before moving to Japan, I couldn't even speak one word in Japanese.
Yeah, that was again, a big challenge. Although I passed the JLPT, the language test, level one, it doesn't mean that you can speak that fluently.
Catherine: It's more writing and listening. Isn't it? Rather than speaking.
Hojung: Exactly. So Japanese was already difficult for me and being a business Japanese speaker, business level Japanese, it was even more difficult. And even now I'm not perfect.
Catherine: Right. So you used English with your husband as your language?
Hojung: Yes. All the time. Now it’s changed a lot because I speak in Japanese more fluently.
Catherine: Goodness.
Hojung: But before it was a hundred percent English. And one thing I was so surprised about in Japan is that, in Korea I saw so many female general counsel or in-house counsel, but in Japan, at least in 2014, I didn't see almost any. Only one or two people including Claire and another person at Toyota, they were really prominent, leading female lawyers.
But then, especially in my industry, construction or energy, mining, really there was no female counsel. I was very surprised. And successful female lawyers don't have families. So I was very sad, which was very different from Korea.
And another thing was as a junior, you are not supposed to talk to the executives.
Yeah, so it was different.
And private practice versus in-house… oh God. I didn't know partners are that important, because when I was in-house I only talked to partners and I talked to the executives on a daily basis, I didn't know partners were that important.
Catherine: How did you find out they were important?
Hojung: Well they say that, right? Like partners talk, partners do, only partners are allowed to do this, to do that…
Catherine: Mmm.
Hojung: Partners only everything. If you're not a partner in private practice, I don't know, I mean, back then especially eight years ago, nine years ago, it even more conservative at that time. So I found it very difficult and different.
I remember one time I said to my mentor who was senior associate at that time, I kept telling him I was a Kacho. You know, I was the manager in Korea, but now I'm treated like I’m invisible. And I was so frustrated. But now I think it's so funny, you know, who cares whether you are Kacho or not. But yeah, I didn't really get that.
Catherine: Big change. And so you now are on two D&I subcommittees. I think one is work-life balance, and the other race, ethnicity. Is this all coming from your New York days and from your time in Korea? Are these things that really matter to you and for you to help others within the firm?
Hojung: Exactly. Especially work-life balance because I now have a kid, it's really important. And also Baker cares about work life balance very much. And I do think we are doing very well in that sense. And the race, ethnicity, yes, it matters so much even in Japan. Although I’m Asian, I'm treated differently just because I'm not Japanese, but Asian.
Catherine: Yeah, they say, if you want something done, you ask a busy person. So you seem very busy with all of what you're doing with your work and life. Why are these committees so important for you?
Hojung: I actually did change some policies within our office to be more friendly to working parents.
Catherine: How did you change them? What did you change?
Hojung: So I initiated this conversation to change the policy. I cannot go in detail but before we changed this policy, a lot of people were uncertain about pregnancy, the rules around it. And with maternity leave, will my career change? And all these things.
And then more support for working parents, financially, and also as a culture within the firm. So I led this conversation with management and then we published the new rule this last year.
Catherine: To help make it more transparent?
Hojung: Transparent, and also supportive for parents.
Catherine: Oh, brilliant.
Hojung: Yeah. I'm very proud of my team.
Catherine: Yeah, that's great. Did you also take maternity leave after the policy had been changed? How long can you take and what kind of support can people get?
Hojung: Ah, actually I took maternity leave before the policy changed, but I'm really lucky that my team is very supportive of my family responsibilities.
Catherine: Yeah.
Hojung: It was not always like that. When I was younger, I was even told I shouldn't start a family until I'm established in the firm.
Catherine: What does established mean though?
Hojung: Exactly, exactly. I was asking, and then I didn't get a response. Maybe it could mean partnership, or because I had just joined the firm so maybe have more connection.
Catherine: It could be subjective. Wow. Is there anything else here that you wanted to talk about in the DEI space?
Hojung: And also, ethnicity and race is also very, very dear to me, not dear, but so close to me. I cannot just let it go. People are discriminated against based on their nationality or race. Because I have experienced it. I'm still experiencing it.
And changing the bias is really important, or stereotypes, but I see a lot of changes since 2014, more diversity really.
Catherine: What's one thing you can do to help people think differently about bias, how to change bias?
Hojung: I think communication is the key. I mean, people tend to stereotype and generalise things because it's easy, and I've been fighting against all sorts of biases, especially since I moved to Japan. And I found it more so in private practice, because usually you graduate from law school and you did well at school and then you join as a junior associate and then you keep, you know, like growing up within private practice. And then there isn't really diversity, I think.
But working in this really international law firm, I get to meet all different kinds of people from all over the world. And we try to understand each other personally. And then that makes everything so easy. So I'm not only talking about this bias or things within my environment, but as a whole, especially in Japan and that society, people really have strong stereotypes.
For example, I'm Korean, so everyone thinks, oh, you must like kimchi. I have left the country for a long time and I'm really international. So I sometimes find it so unfair that people generalise an individual without considering her or his background or uniqueness.
Catherine: Making some assumptions.
Hojung: Mmm.
Catherine: Yeah. I see. Wow. Let's flip a little bit here, cause I know there's another unusual thing that you do right now, which is clubhouse. You're the host of this DX digital transformation, legal bento box. This sounds like such a great initiative, bringing perhaps a bit of fun and innovation to the law.
Is this related to the digital transformation focus group that you lead? Or how did this come about?
Hojung: Yeah, exactly. Because of my expertise in construction, I'm also interested in smart cities. And smart cities are these complex digital transformations, and I first joined this digital transformation focus group within our office, and then my partner and another associate, we were like, oh, now clubhouse is booming. So why don't we try it?
And then we talked about digital transformation and law. So we started in March, 2021, so it's been a year. And then we touched upon so many different topics such as I mentioned, smart cities, and the drones, or EVs automatic in a vehicle. And recently, I'm talking about my areas, and digital transition and digital transformation and ESG, all these trendy issues.
And it's more casual. We do have clients and also Baker & McKenzie internal lawyers, and discussions are really interesting. And I learn so much, it's not like a seminar, but you get to ask questions and it's really interactive and casual and it's not recorded. So everyone feels free to speak up and ask whatever questions they want to ask.
It's been really fun. And because of this initiative, recently, I presented in front of the Hanoi bar association regarding digital transformation and energy transition with my colleagues. So yeah, it gave me a lot of new opportunities.
Catherine: It's great. Isn't it? I mean, clubhouse I know is still popular in Japan, especially. But it sounds great to be able to bring in your clients and also your internal lawyers to just create a different format and a different environment. As you say, it's more casual. It's not recorded. People can actually be opening up a little bit more to talk about the things that are on their mind. And how great that it led to another opportunity for you to go and speak in Vietnam, Hanoi.
Hojung: Yeah.
Catherine: Online, of course, not travelling
Hojung: Well, unfortunately,
Catherine: Unfortunately. Next time. But that's fantastic. Wow. Was that your idea to bring this up? Was it the three of you, you'd mentioned a partner and another person, is that your idea?
Hojung: No. Well, the three of us had been talking about digital transformation and these things, but I didn't particularly suggest it. But my partner was, I mean, he's really interesting and fun. So he was thinking of different things and then clubhouse at that time was super popular and you couldn't get on the app, if you don't have an invitation.
Catherine: Yeah, you had to be invited and now it’s a little more open, that's a year ago. Well, congratulations on that. So is the future of law for you about these topics? DX, ESG drones, smart cities, I mean, they're not just trendy issues, are they? What's your dream for the future of law?
Hojung: Well, you know, there are a lot of people saying that AI will take over our job, but I doubt it. All of us have very unique experiences, and there are, of course, common themes or common aspects of all the matters. But what we do is really based on our experience and thinking about creative ways to help the client and digest it so that the client can understand the difficult legal concepts.
So even though I'm a big supporter of technology and AI, I don't know, it'll still take a lot of time for AI to really, you know, take over our roles. And I see there are many ways to efficiently deal with difficult or complicated legal topics. So I think that’ll be helpful. And then it'll open up to the public like, you know, general or normal people will think law is not difficult anymore. So I think that'll change a lot too.
And just as you see law is involved in every area like ESG or antitrust, like merger filing, digital transformation. And even like, as I mentioned, EV, or electric vehicles and automated vehicles, everything involves law. So I think the future of law is bright, but I think we will be challenged by more complex issues and we have to be more creative and open to new challenges and changes.
Catherine: Right. And so what's one thing that you're learning right now?
Hojung: I think crisis is not really crisis, but as people say, turning crisis into opportunity, like COVID gave me the opportunity. Right after maternity leave I had to work from home from day one and I didn't get to see my colleagues for two years or so, but it actually gave me a lot of opportunities by having creative thinking, trying to connect and communicate even online or virtually.
And now I got to know more colleagues and clients, and I have more opportunities for public speaking and taking quite a few leadership roles within my office. So I have to think that everything happens for a reason.
Catherine: For sure. Wow. So you're learning a lot about yourself right now and the opportunities and taking advantage of things that come across your path.
Hojung: Yeah. Well, especially so, because my family got COVID earlier last month, that made me really think a lot about myself.
Catherine: Yeah. Wow. Okay. So you're really thinking about yourself, your future, your health, all kinds of things.
Hojung: Going back to the bias and stereotypes, like I know, especially in private practice and also for junior lawyers, it tends to be intimidating. It can be scary, but all the bias or criticisms, they're all limiting beliefs. And you should be away from those people who say them to you and just trust in yourself and know your strengths and work on that more and more.
And then it will give you more opportunity and confidence. And I had a lot of difficulties, but I have proved myself. And yes, it is tough, and some people even say, you don't have to prove yourself since others' opinions are not important, but in our industry it's a bit difficult. If you are not strong enough, it's difficult to be not influenced by what others say. So believe in yourself and keep doing what you think is right for you. I could keep moving and keep developing. I think that's what is really important for this career.
Catherine: Well, I was going to ask you about your top tips, but I think you've just given them. You know, being more brave, being more trusting of yourself, being more vulnerable and open. That's what I'm hearing from you.
Hojung: Yeah, I'm not perfect yet. I still don't know how to handle negative feedback. I try to develop, I tried to grow based on the negative feedback, but still it hurts. Right? And I'm not perfect. I try really hard. And I was shocked when I was told I should not have a family, but now I understand as I grow a little bit senior.
I'm always also afraid about what if one of my team will be on leave then? It'll affect the work very much, but you have to learn how to deal with those difficulties or how to work with your team. And I'm really, really happy and grateful that my team is so supportive. They not only are just understanding that I have a kid who doesn't allow me to work when he's around, but also we shift time so everyone can work on the same thing, but on different time schedules.
Catherine: It's very flexible.
Hojung: And it was not like that before, but because you communicate and you talk to them and you train them. Right?
Catherine: So how do you manage your day? How does it look from morning through till the end of the day?
Hojung: So I try to wake up early but because of the quarantine period, it’s kind of ruined right now, but I'm trying to go back to the routine. But I wake up early, like five, six, and then get some work done before my son wakes up. And when he wakes up, he wouldn't like me doing anything else, just looking after him.
So when he wakes up, I start preparing for his nursery and breakfast. And then my husband goes to work. Once they go out of the door around 9:00 AM, I have only limited time until 6:00 PM. So I am really, really focused and try to get everything done within the day. And yeah, once my son comes back at six, from that time until he goes to sleep, I have to be his slave, or play with him. Although I have help every evening, it's really difficult to work while he's around. So yeah, I try to focus on my son during that time. And if I need to, I go back to work after he goes to sleep, but recently he goes to sleep even later. So my free time is getting less and less.
I don't know how to handle this
Catherine: Mm, new challenge.
Hojung: Yeah.
Catherine: So what's a snapshot of just an ordinary slice of your life that brings you real joy?
Hojung: My son.
Catherine: Yeah, I knew you were going to say that.
Hojung: Sorry. No, actually Catherine, I have to admit that I was not very interested in kids. And my husband is actually really, really surprised that I am such a loving mother, because he thought I would just abandon my son. And some people told me that they thought I wouldn't have a kid because I was so focused on my career.
And I write a lot and I do a lot of public speaking. So people thought I wouldn't have time to do that. But you know, I had a hard time to have my kid, so it's so precious just to have him around. And I am also surprised how much I love him.
Catherine: Fabulous.
Hojung: So yeah, one thing I want to tell junior female lawyers is that there is no right time.
I hear a lot from younger people that, I'm afraid if I have kids right now, my career will end here. Why do you think that way? Everyone has different paths and there is no one size fits all answer, but yeah, it seems like it is a very scary topic.
And I do understand, cause I've been through that, but there is no right timing. So just do whatever happens to you, or happens for you, and thrive. And yeah, I cannot believe how much I love my son.
Catherine: I love it. So how do you encourage yourself? Where's this mindset coming from? Do you have a focus or a word of the year that guides you?
Hojung: That's a good question. I haven't really thought about it. I want to do well. Actually, I want to be perfect, although I'm not. So I try hard to prove myself to myself
actually. So that motivates me a lot. And I want to have results, I am results driven, but that's why I'm always a bit stressed.
It's hard to have a balance, but that's how I motivate myself. And also I have really good supporters in my family. My husband and my mum have always been emotionally supportive. So yeah, they keep me motivated too.
Catherine: Big question, success is … fill in the blank.
Hojung: I never thought about it. Success is, you have control over what you are doing and you enjoy what you are doing. I think.
Catherine: Great. I love it.
Hojung: Yeah. That's why actually, Catherine, I think you are very inspiring.
Catherine: This is about you, not me.
Hojung: Yeah, I know. I know. I know. But I always try to look for role models in various areas.
Catherine: Thank you. That's great. Thank you so much. Well, is there anything else that we've not talked about today that you want to talk about or something we did talk about that you would love to reemphasise?
Hojung: Well, I guess it's re-emphasising what I've been saying, but I think you really have to be brave and always do things out of your comfort zone. And I think that's how you develop and grow. And recently I've been following this person, who is not taking a conventional lawyer path. But look around and find role models in various areas, it’s really helpful.
Catherine: I want to know who that is. You don't have to tell me, but very, very interesting. I'm really glad to hear that though, that you are out of your comfort zone and taking a non-conventional path.
Thank you so much. I want to head into the final round for today, which is usually a quick fire round of six questions I ask every guest to wind up the interview.
So the first one Hojung, is if I gave you a million yen in Japanese cash, where would you spend it? Your favourite store or destination? Maybe it's artwork. But tell me what you do with that.
Hojung: Does it have to be in Japan?
Catherine: No.
Hojung: Then I would go to Hawaii.
Catherine: Oh, why?
Hojung: Yeah, that's my dream to live in Hawaii. It's also a melting pot, right? And also there is a large Japanese population.
Catherine: Yes.
Hojung: So my family would feel comfortable, especially since we are a mix of Japan and Korea.
Catherine: Wow. Nice. And so the next question is, is there a podcast or book or some TV program that you are looking at, listening to, reading, that you recommend?
Hojung: Actually, I don't want to tell anyone, but I will disclose here. I am recently, not recently only, but yeah, I've been following Tony Robbins who is a life and the career coach in the US. He’s really famous.
And he himself is an entrepreneur and I'm always amazed how good he is at connecting his business with his friend’s business and they are successful together.
Hojung: Also, of course, it's kind of annoying sometimes, cause it's too much info commercial, but if you can take that for your business, I think it's really good.
Catherine: Do you read books as well?
Hojung: His books. Yeah.
Catherine: You read his books? So in one sentence, what does that say about you? Those books and programs that you're thinking about with Tony?
Hojung: Earlier this year I joined his free four day seminar or training, or five day, and actually started from 4:00 AM.
Catherine: Oh, I've heard about that. Yes. The four or five day thing. Yeah. I've heard about it. You did that? Wow.
Hojung: I woke up every morning at 4:00 AM. I was so excited. I was happy, and happier as the training went by.
Catherine: What does this say about you? It sounds like inquisitive or trying things that are new. What is it saying about you being driven to do this?
Hojung: Well, because of COVID, I've been working from home so long, like seriously, two years, and I wanted to change cause I couldn't travel either. Usually I travel a lot. And I felt like I was imprisoned in my apartment, so I wanted to change.
Actually, what I’ve said today has been influenced by his training a lot too, for example, everything happens for a reason. Although I've always liked the saying. In Chinese, Japanese and Korean too, they all have this saying saiou ga uma (the future is unpredictable).
It's from a Chinese classic and culture. This area shares that classic and yeah, I think that's one of the favourite sayings.
Catherine: Well, that's so good because one of my next questions was what's your favourite saying? But everything happens for a reason. And my other question was, is there someone famous you want to meet? And I'm thinking it might be Tony Robbins maybe. Anyone else, a famous celebrity or person that you would love to meet or have already meet?
Hojung: I cannot think of anyone.
Catherine: Okay, well, call it as Tony Robbins. I'm sure you'd love to meet him.
Hojung: Okay. Oh, no, actually Christine Lagarde.
Catherine: Oh, why?
Hojung: Cause you know, she was the ex chairman of Baker a long time ago.
Catherine: Sure, she was.
Hojung: Yes, yes. She was the first female chairman and everyone who met her before, my colleagues say she's such an outstanding person. She's very kind and nice, but also when she's in the room, everyone knows she's there. So I want to see what it's like.
Catherine: Hmm, you've got me thinking. Hmm, sounds fantastic. And the last question Hojung, is, what's one thing you are deeply grateful for right now?
Hojung: Family.
Catherine: Great.
Hojung: Yeah. It's kind of boring. Bot I do really.
Catherine: No, it's not boring at all. I think that’s the perfect answer. Well, thank you so much. We've come to the end of the podcast and I've just so enjoyed speaking with you. I know a lot about you, but there's so much that you shared that I didn't know. And you've been really brave and trusting and vulnerable today, and I'm really thankful for you sharing your story so much.
Hojung: No, thank you. I really, really enjoyed it. And I appreciate that you invited me to speak here.
Catherine: No, I've really enjoyed it. How can people get in touch with you? Would that be LinkedIn or through your website?
Hojung: Yeah, LinkedIn and also Clubhouse.
Catherine: Oh, yes. Clubhouse of course. Yeah, they have to join clubhouse and then connect with you in that way. Right?
Hojung: That'd be great.
Catherine: Well, I don't think we've had a clubhouse connection in our show notes, but we will put that in there today so that people who want to connect with you can do that on LinkedIn or clubhouse.
Well, we'll finish there. We've had a fantastic conversation and I'm really grateful for you being in this third season of Lawyer on Air. And I really want to thank you again for your openness and your honesty.
And for my listeners, do like this episode, subscribe to Lawyer on Air,and do drop us a short review as that really helps Lawyer on Air be seen and heard by more people.
And you can actually pop on over to my web page and leave me a voicemail as well. And we do love hearing actual voices of people telling us how they thought about the show, and what they loved hearing from the guests. So do go ahead and share the episode with someone else you think would enjoy listening to it, and be inspired to live a wonderful lawyer extraordinaire life.
That's all for now. See everyone on the next episode. Cheers, kampai and bye for now.
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