Episode Two: Creating a platform for the next generation of lawyers
Full transcript below.
Akiko is our first Japanese female lawyer guest on Lawyer on Air. She knocks it out of the park in this episode giving us a great insight into her life working in Employment Law as a Partner in her own firm which she set up with two co-Partners in 2017.
It was especially interesting to hear how she views her own firm, as a platform for the next generation to use to do their best work in the law into the future as well as her advice for good management of employees in a fair and competent way. Excellent advice for anyone working in Japan as well as managers in any industry. I hope you will listen and hear from this fun, savvy and strong Japanese female lawyer!
If you enjoyed this episode and it inspired you in some way, we’d love to hear about it and know your biggest takeaway. Take a screenshot of yourself listening to the episode on your device, post it to your Instagram Stories, and tag me, @lawyeronair or find us on LinkedIn or Twitter.
In this episode you’ll hear:
How Akiko started in law and why she decided to leave “Big Law” for her own firm
What Akiko thinks are the most important points of working in a big firm vs your own firm
Akiko’s idea of her firm as a platform for future lawyers
How her firm delegates work and calculates salaries
Her thoughts on working online vs face to face
The Japanese courts during Covid
Court cases in Japan regarding Employment dispute cases
Commonly occurring problems with Employment law in Japan
Why employee performance feedback is so important for performance reviews and why a good HR person is crucial
How Akiko manages her day as a busy lawyer
Some of the things Akiko asks for help with and how she is working towards doing “less”
Akiko’s advice for young lawyers
How the learning experience of being on a Board helped her discover the kind of person she is
The importance of Awards for powerful lawyer branding and marketing for new firms
Her favourite manga and other fun facts
About Akiko
Akiko specialises in employment law and dispute resolution. She provides day-to-day employment advice to various multinational clients on matters including preparing rules of employment, employment contracts, and wage systems, dealing with a large number of employment-related disputes including dismissals on the grounds of poor performance or misconduct, redundancies, overtime pay, retirement benefits, or harassment issues. She also provides training on matters such as harassment, employee performance management, and time management. She has also led numerous teams as they conduct internal and regulatory investigations. She also has extensive experience in representing clients in court proceedings on employment and labour issues. Akiko’s clients hail from a broad range of sectors including financial services and multi-national corporations.
Admitted as a Japanese bengoshi (lawyer) in 1999, Akiko is a member of the Dai-ichi Tokyo Bar Association and the New York Bar. She was educated at the University of Tokyo (LLB, 1997) and the Legal Research and Training Institute of the Supreme Court of Japan (1999). She completed an LL.M at Harvard Law School in 2003 and is fully bilingual.
Connect with Akiko
Website:https://www.vl-tokyo.co.jp/en.html
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/akikoyamakawa/
Connect with Catherine
Linked In https://www.linkedin.com/in/oconnellcatherine/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lawyeronair
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/catherine.oconnell.148
Twitter: https://twitter.com/oconnelllawyer
Transcript
Catherine: Hi everyone. And welcome to this episode of Lawyer on Air. I'm Catherine O'Connell. Today, I'm joined by Akiko Yamakawa who is a Japanese lawyer or bengoshi, as we call them in Japan. Akiko is an amazing lawyer with her specialist expertise in employment, law, and dispute resolution. Many of you listening will know that Japan is a country where employees have heavy protection under the law, and Akiko finds herself each day answering the questions of her financial services and multinational clients and helping them navigate their way so that they can operate their businesses in Japan, in compliance with the employment law requirements, Akiko also helps clients design their rules of employment.
She crafts watertight employment contracts for the employees of the corporate she works with, as we all know, sometimes despite our best efforts as lawyers and business owners, things don't always go according to plan. And I like to think of Akiko as many a corporate's knightess in shining red armour. Why red you say?
Well, it's actually Akiko’s signature colour. I've seen her wearing red a lot. It's very bold and assertive, just like she is. So she gallops in and deals with all of these employment-related disputes, including the sometimes pretty uncomfortable area of employee and executive level dismissals. She's like a moth to the flame for all these tougher areas of internal and regulatory investigations and employment court proceedings. In my eyes, Akiko is really, I guess, the go-to, the one-stop shop for the whole spectrum of employment matters like overtime pay and retirement benefits and redundancies.
She's always got this coaching mindset as well, and trying to help clients and guide them at the front end with training programs and employee performance management and anti-harassment training. So when clients contact me for help with employment law matters, Akiko is my first point of call and she has helped several of them resolve their issues.
She has a delightful sense of humour that I just love. I immediately warmed to her the day I met her because of that humorous card that she plays. And I hope that she can let you see a little bit of that as we talk today. I witnessed her launch her law firm here. I've admired seeing her stand on stage to win multiple law awards year after year.
And she goes from strength to strength as she strategically manages her team and her career path and her pioneering employment law footprint in Japan. Yes, you can tell I am a fan girl of Akiko and I'm super proud to have her as my guest today. Akiko, welcome to the show.
Akiko: Hi, Catherine.
Catherine: Great to have you here.
Akiko: Thanks so much for inviting me. This is very exciting.
Catherine: Oh, I'm glad to hear that. Today we're going to be talking about your career, how and why you moved from big law to launch your own specialist employment law boutique firm here in Japan, some of the issues and challenges you're facing, and I'd really love you to also offer some gems of advice for young lawyers on their career path here.
How does that sound?
Akiko: Sounds great.
Catherine: Okay. Well, today we're talking offline because we're still in a post state of emergency in Japan, but if we were meeting up in person and I hope we can do that soon, is there a favourite wine bar or a favourite restaurant that you love to go to and what would you be choosing off the menu?
Akiko: So I don't really have a favourite wine bar, but I've been thinking about it. Now I want to go to eat something Spanish, like a tapas, and probably I'll be having sangria.
Catherine: Oh, sounds fantastic. I would love to go there with you some place to do that. Perhaps we can find a time after this to do that together.
Akiko: Yeah, definitely.
Catherine: I'm trying to think too, back to when we first met. I said at the intro that I loved you when I met you with your sense of humour. And I think it was when we had the Woman in Law Japan panel discussion back in May, 2018. So it's around three years ago. I think you and I appeared on that panel with Keiko Ohara and John Sasaki, Mangyo Kinoshita and Reid Monroe-Sheridan.
And at that time I think we were talking about our solo and small firm businesses and sharing our tips and gems with people. Was that when it was?
Akiko: I think so. I remember that event quite clearly because we had some wine before we were on stage. So I was a little bit drunk, so it was a very enjoyable experience.
Catherine: That's right. And I think that's how I remember you because it was quite inspiring for me to meet someone who had decided to have a few drinks before starting. And I'm quite the opposite. I won't drink before I do a presentation. So that really touched me. And I, I kind of, if I can say, that's where you became my person that I really liked and I was a fan girl of you from then.
Akiko: Thank you. I don't know if it was a good idea, but I enjoyed it.
Catherine: Thanks so much. I can't remember at the time how you introduced yourself, but when you do introduce yourself to people, how do you introduce yourself? And sometimes people are different when they are lawyers speaking with lawyers, or they're speaking with people who are non-lawyers.
How do you introduce yourself?
Akiko: That's an interesting question. If I'm talking with lawyers or in a business context, I’ll probably just introduce myself as an employment lawyer. If I'm speaking with someone completely not related to work, I tend to try to not tell people I'm a lawyer because it's quite intimidating.
So I try to move away from the topic of what I'm doing.
Catherine: What do you do instead then?
Akiko: I don’t know, I just, when people ask me what you're doing, I do something or something to do with law, and then I just quickly change the topic.
Catherine: That’s very interesting you say that, because I'm very similar. Sometimes I don't want people to know or judge me or get an impression of me immediately by what I do as a job.
I'd rather them get to know me first. Is that kind of what you're saying is the same way that you approach things?
Akiko: I think so. And you know, I'm getting older, so I'm getting used to it. But when you were like very young, like in early twenties or not early twenties, late twenties. And if you go to somewhere, like to get your hair cut.
And they ask you what you're doing. And if I say I'm a lawyer, they'll just kind of like, not talk to you anymore because they're so scared of you.
Catherine: Or they might chop off your hair unexpectedly. Yeah. Well, we're quite similar in that way. I like people to get to know me as well and then say, yeah, I usually say that too; I work in the law. And then as the conversation progresses, I tell a little bit more.
But it was quite a while ago now that you were admitted as a Japanese bengoshi, I think 22 years ago in 1999. And you also have a New York state bar qualification. I read in your bio that you did an LLM at Harvard law school in 2003.
So I think that must've been while you were at Freshfields. And around the time I was in Japan taking on my second role at Panasonic. So tell me a little bit more about that early stage of your career path. What got you into the law and why you chose this career in law and your early stages working as a lawyer.
Akiko: That's another interesting question. I’ve never, kind of, consciously made the decision that I wanted to be a lawyer, but when I was in university, for example, me joining a big Japanese corporation was quite, it looked like a pretty unpleasant experience because you'd be super minority. And so a lot of my friends were also taking the bar exam only because it was easier for females to have a professional life, if you have some kind of a qualification.
It wasn't really a conscious choice, but it was more like being a lawyer is probably easier kind of choice. And that's how I ended up being a lawyer. And I think that was a very good choice because I think I'm quite fit to be a lawyer. So, you know, it ended up all very well.
Catherine: When you say you're fit to be a lawyer, what does that mean? Is it your approach, the analytic kind of approach that you have to your work? What is it that makes you think that?
Akiko: Well, it's a little bit of the other way around in that, you know, being an employment lawyer, I see lots of people working at big corporations.
And I think I’m probably not very good at working at big organisations. So being independent is probably much better for me.
Catherine: I see. Right. So when you were a child then going back even further, what did you want to be? Did you, you obviously were not aspiring to be a lawyer, but what was on your mind then as I want to be a ___ when I grow up?
Akiko: Another interesting question, I was thinking about it, but I didn't really have any dream job.
It's all very appalling, but I was looking a couple of months ago, I was looking at what we call the sotsugyou bunshuu. That's kind of a little writing that people do when you graduate from primary school. So I was like 12, 13, and there was this little section where people were writing what you want to be in the future.
And I was just so surprised to see what I wrote. I wrote that I want to marry a CEO and have two kids. It's just like, wow, nothing's come true. And I don't even want to be that anymore.
Catherine: How interesting. You wonder if that time, if your friends, you know, also writing the same little sentences were influencing you or what the scene was at that time? How funny.
Akiko: Maybe I was trying to be funny. I just don't know. It was just so crazy.
Catherine: I had some memory that you had someone in your family who was a lawyer. Wasn't it your father, or have I got that completely wrong?
Akiko: No. Well, there's no one in my family who's a lawyer. My father is a salary man.
Catherine: Right. Okay. So are there any other role models in your family or around you that influenced you at any stage to really hone in on becoming a lawyer?
Akiko: I don't think so. Although my parents just didn't say anything about my career or what I should be doing. So they let me make my own decisions, which I really respect them for that. I don't recall at any time them telling me that I should do this or that, on almost anything really.
Catherine: Sounds fantastic.
I mean, that's really very similar again to how I was brought up. And when I said I was going to study Japanese, my family were oh, okay. And when I wanted to leave being a tour guide and do law, it was, oh, okay. So there was never any turn back on that. And I think that's really instrumental for both you and I, that we didn't have any pushback. And had we'd had that, we might not have turned out to be where we are now.
Akiko: Absolutely.
Catherine: So what is it about your work that you're doing now, your job, that you really like as a lawyer? Some aspects of your work that you find really make you feel some joy?
Akiko: I think there are two aspects. One is because I do employment, I do get a chance to meet a lot of people that I probably wouldn't be meeting if I wasn't doing this.
So for example, if I was doing a case in a big corporation in the operations department or whatever, and then you get to know people and ask them what they're doing. It's really fascinating to know that there's so many jobs out there, of course, but you know, you don't really get a chance to really ask what you do on a daily basis and you meet lots of people, not just the legal people or HR, you also meet the people actually doing the business, which is also fun.
The other thing I actually quite like is the contentious part of my business. I do a lot of contentious employment matters. So that's litigation negotiations, shouting at union members and stuff like that. It's not a very pleasant experience if you're being aggressive or angry for something personal, but if you're just advocating someone's view and you can be aggressive, and it's your job, it's actually quite stress-relieving.
And it's very exciting. So I do like the contentious part of my job as well.
Catherine: That's interesting. And does that actually mean that you show another side of your personality, that you can't show when you're privately acting, right? It gives you another chance to almost act or be somebody else in that role as your being a litigator or in these contentious matters?
Akiko: Yeah, it's interesting. I've never thought of it that way, but maybe yes, because if you're doing cross-examination, you feel a bit like your acting and, you know, adrenaline starts flowing and all that. So there might be a little bit of that as well.
Catherine: Well, I'm sure you had a bit of that when you were still at big law, at Freshfields and then you moved away from that to set up your own practice, which is called Vanguard Law.
Tell me a little bit about that then, the 12 months or so before that, that led you to break away from your own firm. And I really want to know how you came up with this name, Vanguard Law.
Akiko: So the reason why we started... well, it's not just me, it's me and Kazuki and Naoki. So it was the three of them. We kind of spun off from Freshfields.
It was a very amicable spinoff. And the only reason was because we were losing synergy with the rest of the Tokyo office. The Tokyo office of Freshfields was focusing much more on outbound work. Our practice was very inbound, so you know, it didn't really make much sense for us to be on the same platform.
So we thought that would be better on both sides if we just spun off the practice altogether. So that's how the firm was built. On Vanguard, again, very interesting question. We were really struggling with coming up with names and it had to be an English term because most of our clients are non-Japanese.
So we couldn't use a Japanese name. But then if you started looking for words that actually had a meaning that people could understand in Japan, they all felt a little bit, “dasai” (dowdy) things like justice or, you know, those kind of words. Not really. So we wanted a word that people didn't really quite understand what it meant.
And we thought that Vanguard was actually quite good because I didn't really know what Vanguard meant, but it sounded like a cool name. And if you look it up in the dictionary, it has a pretty nice meaning. And the person who actually gave me that name was my father, but he had completely forgotten about it. So he gave me a list of names and I said, I'm going to call it Vanguard.
And he was like, oh, that's a very nice name. Where did you get that from? It's like, it was on your list. He doesn't even remember, but that's really how we ended up with Vanguard.
Catherine: Oh, there you go. That must have been the thing that I was thinking about related to your dad. So, kudos to him.
Akiko: Yep.
Catherine: Kudos to him. And so you have this name, Vanguard law. You've gone out with these two other two chaps. Are there two, both males, right? Kazuki and Naoki. Right.
Akiko: Yes.
Catherine: And so how long did it take to set up your practice? Like for me, when I set up my practice, it took the better part of a year with the gaiben foreign lawyer registration and dual requirements from New Zealand and Japan.
So how about, how about for bengoshi, in terms of your finding the office partnership agreements, licenses, regulations, those kinds of things.
Akiko: You know, it wasn't that difficult. I recall that I made up my mind to spin off in December. And then I spoke with Kazuki in January, and then we were starting our new firm in September.
So I think it was a little over six months or so, because on the licensing bit, if you're a bengoshi, it's super easy. It's all just paperwork. And I think it was more around infrastructure, office space, hiring and all that took a little bit of time. But overall, I didn't find it that painful.
Catherine: Right. Okay. And so before you mentioned the word “dasai”, which I think is probably dowdy or, you know, not very exciting. And so you went the absolute opposite of that to build your office in Marunouchi, which is right in the centre of Tokyo. So you're obviously looking for something that matched the name of Vanguard and the way that you wanted to attract your clients.
Is that right?
Akiko: Yeah. Well, I mean, we weren't really thinking of Marunouchi, at the beginning because we thought it was super expensive, but we were looking around and once the real estate agency takes you to Marunouchi, you kind of feel like I want to be there. And then some of the buildings are actually not that expensive rent wise.
So we were quite lucky to find a nice little space in the Marunouchi, area where we could start.
Catherine: Right. Okay. That's interesting. And so you didn't really have too much trouble over six months to get set up, but was there something else inside of you that you needed to break away from big law? Like that mindset that you needed?
Because you know, when I set up, there were people, people have different reactions to when you pull away from such a big glamorous, so-called big glamorous job. What was that like for you from, you know, deep inside the mindset to break away from big law and how do people react to you doing that breakaway?
Akiko: Mindset, I mean, I don't really want to say anything negative about the big firms, because I love Freshfields and I still love Freshfields, but being part of a big organisation can sometimes be quite stressful. So I had to do all the business plans and my business plan had to meet the overall firm's strategy.
And obviously there's sometimes a little bit of conflict there. So I just, I did want a little bit more, much more liberty and just do what I wanted to do. So that's one thing. In terms of people around me, when I started thinking of leaving Freshfields and setting up my own firm, I had already almost kind of made up my mind, but I did speak with a couple of female lawyers, including Keiko Ohara that was on the panel where we first met and everyone was so encouraging. No one said anything negative and everyone was like, yeah, yeah, just go ahead. And so I thought that if no one's telling me anything negative, it's probably the best thing to do.
Catherine: Very interesting. How about with people who weren't lawyers, when you told others about the fact that you were doing this, did they also have that same jubilant reaction?
Akiko: I think so. Again, my parents were like, yeah okay. And then my friends were kind of excited. Because I was still talking with my friends about, you know, what should I do with the firm furniture and all that. And everyone was kind of, you know, giving me ideas. So we were all enjoying the experience together.
Catherine: Oh that’s really wonderful. I'm so glad you had that. For some people who I spoke to, they would say things like; ‘really? you're leaving your big corporate job to do your own law firm?’ So sometimes I had that kind of reaction. I'm glad you didn't, but I sort of think when people react like that, that it's almost a reflection of themselves in a mirror, perhaps their own risk level and their appetite for leaving a comfortable job and going and doing something a little bit more revolutionary.
So kudos to you for doing that. So how long ago was that, that you set up the firm?
Akiko: 2017 I think, September, 2017.
Catherine: And so you mentioned that you've still got a good relationship with Freshfields and you love them. So I imagine there is still some workflow that comes through from them to you as well without going into the details.
Akiko: Yeah, because we left, Freshfields no longer does Japanese employment law. So naturally I do work together with them and it's really nice..
Catherine: Great. And so you, I mentioned at the top of the show, a little array of all the work that you do. Can you just share maybe a little bit more about the kinds of work that your firm does and if there's anything interesting that's been happening lately these days, without obviously telling all your secrets, but tell us a bit more about the kinds of work you're doing.
Akiko: So Vanguard focuses on providing Japanese legal advice to multinationals, meaning non Japanese corporates with operations in Japan. So we intentionally only target non-Japanese companies. And we're very strong in employment and disputes. That's where I think we're a bit unique because there's lots of many good boutique employment law firms in Japan, but none of them focus solely on the international firms.
So that's what I do. I'm sorry. I forgot what you were asking.
Catherine: No, I said is there anything interesting that you're doing at the moment with one of the international firms?
Akiko: It's a bit depressing, but with all the COVID, as you can imagine, we're quite busy with all sorts of employment issues. So when the economy is not doing very well, we tend to become busy, which is a bit depressing, but you can really see where the economy's going, just looking at your workflow.
Catherine: Exactly. Yeah. That is the case. And I think niching down, or niching down as we like to say in America as well, niching down to, you know, non-Japanese companies intentionally, some people would say that's a great idea. Others, you know, when they go out on their own, they will do a whole lot of different kinds of work in order to get work flow through the door.
So you've found that honing in on that niche has been a really good thing for you at Vanguard. Is that right?
Akiko: Yes. Yes. It was very good for branding. Because otherwise people will say like, what does Vanguard do? But we have a very clear focus in terms of our practice areas.
Catherine: That's great. And are you still with the two chaps, you mentioned who, three of you as partners, or have you taken on other people in the firm?
Akiko: Partner wise, we now have 2, 3, 4 partners. So we've joined, Akira has joined. He does corporate. And so we now have got four partners.
Catherine: And you are the female partner in the firm?
Akiko: Yes.
Catherine: Have you had any challenges along the way with being that only woman in your firm in Japan?
Akiko: Not really. I mean, associates, we've got quite a good mix of male and female and also client wise, maybe I'm quite lucky because I do employment law because there's a lot of employment counsel in house employment counsel or HR professionals who are female.
So I don't really feel like I'm a minority where I'm doing employment work at least.
Catherine: Right. Cause your counterparts are often females in those particular departments and corporates.
Akiko: Exactly. Yes.
Catherine: That makes sense. So I'm sure that there's people listening who would really like to hear more about the differences for you between working in the large firm and, you know, including as being a partner, and now with your own law firm.
And I think this is actually a question that may have been asked to you on the panel several years ago, but the differences between the large firm and now, and maybe pros and cons of each kind of work.
Akiko: Right. That's a difficult question. Pros and cons. There are many good things about working at large firms like the Freshfields and the sort of like that.
I think it was very good for my career to first start with the big law firms, because you meet a lot of people. It's like a little society in the law firm itself, especially if it's like a global massive firm like Freshfields. So you get to meet a lot of interesting people just within your own firm.
And because Freshfields is a global firm, it's not just Japan, but I get to meet great people in other jurisdictions like London, Hong Kong, the US or Italy, or wherever, like all the way across the world. And that has been a very good experience. And the people there, you meet incredibly smart people. It's like, wow, this person is a genius and you get that kind of experience, which I think would be quite difficult if you were just doing a small practice by yourself, and you have to be, you will have to do super networking to get that whole experience within a small setting.
So I think that's the good thing about being in a big firm. And obviously you get very good clients. Turning to the private, more smaller practice, I think it's the level of autonomy and freedom that you get. Because again, I can set my own fee levels. I can choose what kind of clients I wanna serve and all that.
And so it's the freedom bit is much larger when you are in a smaller law firm.
Catherine: Absolutely. I think you've hit it spot on and you've mentioned liberty, freedom, autonomy, and that ability to set your own fee levels, which is absolutely right. And kudos to you on that one. In terms of long-term success, for someone who might be thinking about going out on their own and doing what you've done, are there any tips you would like to provide to anyone who's thinking about setting up their own practice?
Akiko: I think two things. One is that you just really need to have a focus area because there are so many small law firms, you need to have some kind of a big message board that tells people what you do. So you can't just do, like, I just generally do everything. I don't think it's going to work, especially because things are getting very competitive in this market as well.
The other thing that I'm focusing on right now is really to bring up the next generation, because I'm going to retire and hopefully I want to retire when I'm still healthy and youngish. And if you want to continue this platform, you do need the next generation who will basically take over and I started this law firm thinking about; this is not my law firm.
I'm just creating a platform for lawyers who want to do international work outside the big global firms. And so I've created this platform. So I would love to have someone really use this platform going forward to provide Japanese legal advice to the multinational corporates.
Catherine: Wow, I've never heard anyone refer to their firm as a platform for others.
That's really quite distinctive. How many then in your team who are on this platform with you, how many people are you looking after?
Akiko: So we now have 10 associates. So there's a good team.
Catherine: And do you have them dedicated to you and to Akira and your other partners, or are they helping all of you in different ways?
Akiko: They’re helping everyone. So we don't really have any teams, we're too small for that. And so everyone does, everyone does everything.
Catherine: So that's a little bit different than obviously to BigLaw where people are very much associates are dedicated to a certain partner.
Akiko: I guess, well, I don't know. I mean, I think people, at least at Freshfields, people are dedicated to a certain practice area, but not so much partners.
Cause Freshfields, and also my firm, we kind of do a lock step kind of system. So it's not like the income, that the business I bring in doesn't directly reflect to my income. If you see what I mean. So we just pool all the income and just divide it among the partners. So it's not like the more I work, the more I get.
I mean, if Akira does a lot of work, I might be able to get more money because Akira’s bringing more money. That's the way we do it.
Catherine: Right. I see. So you pool all of the income, that's come from all the partners and then divide it up equally.
Akiko: Exactly. So then there's absolutely no fight for associates. For one thing.
Cause they are just one big team and there's no fight for clients because if someone at Vanguard does the work, then that's fine. So then obviously the best person will end up doing it.
Catherine: Right. Well, that's interesting. Is that kind of typical though, of other smaller firms that you know of, or is that way of doing things, that model, is that a little bit different at Vanguard?
Akiko: I think it's, well, I'm sure there are other firms that do it. I don't think it's, it's probably not mainstream. So when we hire people at mid-level or, we do tell them that this is the way we do, because we want everyone to at least want to become partner. And I think they should know what the partnership is going to look like.
Catherine: Right. And so I imagine that the way that you're doing this is really a motivator for your team. How else are you nurturing and growing that team of yours, that 10 associates to be that generation that you're talking about?
Akiko: I try to give them as much exposure to clients that I can.
So for example, most of the advice that comes out of our firm will come from the associates. I'll obviously review them, but the email itself, I encourage my associates to send out and then they will receive contact directly from the clients. And, you know, I just want them to build their own relationship with the clients and they seem to like that.
Catherine: Hmm. That's really interesting. And the other question I do have to ask you is what it's like being an employment lawyer, who is also an employer?
Akiko: Yeah, that's a good question. Whenever I provide employment advice, I try to forget about myself cause you know, I don't know if I want to be saying this on record, but for example, if I receive some questions around power harassment and how people should be managing people, I say the right thing, obviously, but if I reflect upon myself, there are many things that I'm saying that I'm really not good at myself.
If you see what I mean. So you've got to forget about yourself to be able to provide advice, especially around those power harassment things like, you know, you have to stay calm. I shouldn't say this and that. You need to give this kind of feedback. I'm saying the right thing. I'm trying to do it myself, but I'm not perfect.
There's lots of things that I need to be doing in that area for myself.
Catherine: It must be quite hard, but you're saying you actually forget about yourself and approach it in that way. That's the easiest way for you to do it. But I guess your employees, the associates that you're working with, must be looking at you as an employer as well.
So that's a tough, tough situation to be in. I would think.
Akiko: I think so. I know it's, there's a lot of things that I need to learn and improve. I always say that when I'm providing power harassment training, that no one's perfect, including myself. So we should all be aware of that.
Catherine: Yeah, we are human. We can't always just be our jobs, that's for sure. So how about for others who are leading legal teams, maybe in smaller firms like you or legal counsel, any advice that you might have for them in how to lead a good team or how to lead a team to be good?
Akiko: That’s a very difficult question. I'd like to know the answer myself, but I guess, you know, communication is probably very important just to take some time to speak with your team. I need to do that much more. I'm quite conscious of that.
Catherine: Okay. I understand. So let's think a little bit more, you'd mentioned a little bit about COVID-19 and I think we can’t avoid talking about that elephant in the room. And so before the pandemic started, were you doing a flexible working kind of scheme at Vanguard or was that when you really, all of you and the associates went online, how did you operate the practice over the last 12 months or so?
Akiko: So we didn't really have a flexible scheme as such, but you know, we're all grown up so people would come to the office when they like and leave when they like. But it wasn't like once a week, everyone worked remotely. It wasn't like that before COVID. During COVID, only during the, where the emergency declaration was in place, we were working remotely. But other than that, I think we quickly came back to the office.
We were quite quick. I mean, for example, now everyone's working from the office and the reason for that is I just found it very difficult to integrate the team when everyone was working remotely. And we had a couple of new joiners who joined right in the middle of the emergency declaration, and it was just so difficult.
And so, you know, it's much easier if everyone's coming to the office and we can actually see how people are getting on. Cause it's a very stressful world now, and it's very difficult to see who's struggling stress-wise if everyone's working remotely.
Catherine: That's right. And so you encourage people back, but obviously they had, if they wanted to stay home or they didn't feel comfortable, they could talk with you about that.
So you had a kind of flexible approach to people, but mostly they wanted to come back into the office?
Akiko: Yeah. I just speak with my associates and the staff and almost all of them did want to come back to the office. You know, in Japan, what I think is that people don't live in big houses, like, you know, like in the US or wherever.
And so for example, our staff, they would live in very small flats and you know, they'd be typing from their beds or something. And I can understand that that's not a very comfortable situation.
Catherine: Right. I understand that too. And you know, when you're online, you see that and you understand that people are going through those stresses of having a smaller environment.
So it makes sense to come back to the office. Is there anything that changed that you would like to hold on to because of the pandemic, things that you wouldn't go back to doing again over the last 12 months, something that changed there for you?
Akiko: The good thing is that most of the client meetings are now done over like Zoom or Teams, as opposed to the phone. So previously before COVID I had a lot of telephone conference calls, but not really, not so much Zoom and Teams. And I found that Zooms and Teams are actually much better, especially when you're speaking in English. So I'm not a native English speaker, but if you've got the camera on and you can see the people's reaction, it's much easier to speak and also understand what people are saying.
And I've spoken with my associates who aren't that fluent in English and they all say the same thing. It's just much easier, especially when you're speaking in your second language, if you can see all the facial expressions and the body language, and it's kind of amazing to realise how much information you're providing through facial expressions and body language and all that, and not just the words.
And so that bit I'll definitely want to stick with, the camera on kind of devices rather than just the telephone.
Catherine: Right. That makes sense. Because you have international clients, they wouldn't have been in Japan and they wouldn't be sitting in front of you. Right. And so a lot of people have missed that people being in front of them situation in law firms.
But you're saying that you did a lot on the phone. So actually the enhancement has happened with having the opportunity to see people on the screen and you can actually see them rather than just the telephone call. That's really good to hear that.
Akiko: Yeah, because there were some clients that I've been speaking over the phone for like years. And the first time I saw their face because I switched on the camera, was like, oh, hi.
I hope it wasn't a shock for them.
Catherine: Well, no. And I guess too, you just get so many little indicators, right. From raised eyebrows or eyes opened or furrowed brow, those kinds of things, all deliver the information you need. Because as they say, only 7% of what we say is, is actually, you know, in words is what people understand.
It's all the other things that we are doing that gives you indicators of how people are thinking about problems and about issues. Right?
Akiko: Yeah, absolutely. Yes.
Catherine: Okay. So you would have still done employment court cases and other disputes in the courts over the time. And I heard a few stories about there being a little bit of innovation in the courts, but people were still having to fax documents over and paperwork very much so.
But did you find any shift in the courts and the way they handle cases for you over the last 12 months?
Akiko: Yes. So the courts now do the little hearings, the very short ones, through Teams, which is actually quite helpful because the very short hearings, they end in like five minutes. So you just go to the court, submit something, and then you set the next hearing date and you go back and it's a bit of a waste of time to do that physically if it was just over in five minutes. So the Teams bit I think is working, although they're not very flexible, so you end up, you can only have, well in principle, you can only have one account. So that means that if I have a team of three lawyers on a case, and we were doing a hearing via Teams, everyone has to be in the office and we share the same PC. If you see what I mean. So it's not, yeah. It's not as flexible as you would have thought it was.
Catherine: So you mean you're all sitting in front of the same laptop.
Akiko: Exactly, Yes.
Catherine: You're not in separate desks with your own laptop. You're all at the same...
Akiko: Right.
Catherine: Right. So you had to invest in larger screens.
Akiko: Well, we were all kind of squashed into small screens when we are doing this, but that's all right.
Catherine: Well, that's really interesting. And I guess there must've been quite a few cases over this period, as you indicated before, but what kinds of cases do go as far to court in Japan for the employment area? Are most resolved outside of court, as we often hear, or is arbitration and mediation also used in Japan for employment court cases?
Akiko: So arbitration mediation is not, for example, an arbitration clause in an employment contract would be void. So you have to go to court. However, the court almost works a bit like a mediation because as you know, like more than 90% of the cases end in settlement anyway, so people go to the court to settle.
So a typical way an employment dispute will evolve is that, you know, employee retains counsel, employer retains counsel, you have counsel to counsel negotiations. If you can't reach an agreement, then you go to court with the view of having the court facilitate a settlement. So it's all very much geared towards settlement.
Catherine: Right. So the court helps you with the settlement. You're not really outside of the court settling things, although you're moving along discussions, but the court's position there is to actually try to move you to settlement rather than have a case.
Akiko: Yes, I think in a vast majority of cases, that's what happens.
Catherine: You can tell that I'm not as specialist as you in the employment law area. And that's why I wanted to ask because there's probably some listeners here who may be in the same area, even though we are both lawyers, we all have different specialties. So the other thing I did want to ask you was about commonly occurring problems that you've seen employers in Japan face, perhaps over the last 12 months that's been highlighted, but those sorts of problems around hiring people or firing people or those areas where employers could probably do a little bit of a better job to save themselves later on.
Is there anything around that area you'd like to tell us about?
Akiko: Well, the most technical question I get is really around managing poor performers and what to do with them. And ultimately it will end up in having to exit them from the organisation. Now there are many cases where clients will come to me telling me that, you know, this employee is a very poor performer.
He or she has always been that for many, many years. But then if you look at their performance reviews, they're all rated like average. And there's nothing in the performance reviews that really highlights their areas of development. So I think this is all very common sense but performance management, providing good, appropriate constructive feedback is very, very important.
And especially in Japan, people are not very good at that. And so they don't want to upset people. So they just rate everyone like average, but that's not really doing any good for firstly; to the employees themselves because they're not getting the feedback that they should be receiving.
If they were receiving feedback, they should have been, they might've been able to, you know, improve. But with no feedback then obviously they'll just continue what they're doing. And secondly, when it comes to, when you feel, when the company feels like I do want to exit this employee, if there's been absolutely no performance management in the past, of course the employee won’t get it, of course they won’t understand. Of course they will get upset. So, you know, constant communication, performance management is super important.
Catherine: So do you help employers to then manage how they deliver that? Because that feedback giving, as you just said, is very difficult in Japan, do you help them with ways they can say that and how they should do it?
Is that part of the training that you're doing to help employers?
Akiko: I do sometimes do that. Like for difficult conversations, I would draft talking points and all that. But in my experience, if you've got a very good HR manager, I mean, that they're much better than my advice. They have lots of expertise around that.
So I think having a very good HR person is also crucial.
Catherine: So I'm thinking if you've got a good HR person and they're doing a regular schedule of keeping in touch with the employee and also keeping in mind that they should be giving timely feedback. Is that sort of what you're saying would be one of the first tips to be giving to employers, or are there other things that you would be advising them when you're doing the sort of onboarding of employees or through the performance management?
Akiko: So, yeah, so one thing is really the feedback that I just mentioned, although, I guess it's around, you know, setting the corporate culture. So for example, on compliance kind of issues, if you really have a particular say value that you want to emphasise, I think training or giving, you know, tone from the top kind of messaging is also quite important.
Catherine: All right. So I'm going to jump here a little bit and go more into some things that get you ready for your day and thinking about your routine, which is jumping right away from what you were just talking about. But I think it's really helpful for people listening to know about how you, you know, the things that you do when you're starting off your day to get off on the right foot.
Do you keep regular hours and how do you manage your day?
Akiko: Do I keep regular hours? I don't, well, I don't know. I get up at 7:30 ish and then I have a cat. I just really love my cat. And then the cat in the morning will normally jump onto my bed. So I spent a little bit of time just playing with my cat and then I get ready and just go to the office.
I don't do breakfast. So it's just a cat and getting ready.
Catherine: What's your cat's name?
Akiko: Her name is Rumba Raru. If you're a good big fan of Gundam, you will know what I'm talking about, but her name is Rumba Raru.
Akiko: is a male character, but she's a female cat, but anyway, that's okay. She doesn't mind.
Catherine: Okay. That's fine. You've given a technically male name to a female cat. Does she actually answer to that? It’s quite a mouthful to say.
Akiko: Yeah, it's Rumba Raru but I only call her Raru. So she will respond.
Catherine: Oh she knows Raru. That’s easier to say. Right. So, yeah, I guess with having time with your cat, would be one of the things that you do to start out your day. Is there anything else, like a tool or an object or a ritual that you do aside from being with your kitty cat in the morning there, is there another thing that you do to get yourself out of bed and on for the day?
Akiko: I don't really think so. Oh, I have, I drink Japanese tea every morning. That’s about it.
Catherine: Good. Right. Okay. You don't have a typical Japanese breakfast. You just, you have regular breakfast?
Akiko: I don't really eat breakfast. I just don't feel hungry when I get up. I don't know why it's not good.
Catherine: Fair enough. That's totally fine.
And so you were working at home, but you are now back in the office. What's your favourite thing that you have around you in your workspace at home? When you're working at home, is there some favourite object that you've got there?
Akiko: I don’t think so, but again, if I'm working from home, the cat is there. So I can, you know, yeah.
That's the only thing I miss about working from home.
Catherine: Okay. And so when you're now back in the office, so when you come back home after a day's work, I'm guessing now that the best thing that you look forward to is your cat when you come in the door, is that right?
Akiko: Exactly, I'll go home to see my cat, yeah.
Catherine: Exactly. So when you come in and do you have any other special routine in the evening? Are you, are you out for dinner or you're cooking dinner at home. And when do you, do you put on the laptop again when you're back at home?
Akiko: So I go home. I cook. I hate cooking, but I have to cook, so I cook. And then I watch a lot of TV, so I just watch TV and then I switch on my computer and work for about an hour or even less than that. I don't work that much at home.
Catherine: Okay. And how do you wrap up the day then? Is it involving a kitty cat routine at the end of the day as well?
Akiko: Yes. And then I take a bath. I always I use the bathtub? I do a proper bath.
Catherine: Right. Okay. But not with your cat.
Akiko: Not with my cat, she doesn't like it.
Catherine: Cats don't typically like water. Do they? That's wonderful. All right. So I guess around about this time, if we'd been at the Spanish restaurant together, you would have had a few sangrias.
So I'm going to go a little bit deeper here and ask you a couple of things about things that you're proud of about yourself. What kinds of traits are you really proud of? Is resilience one of them, or being bold, assertive, as I said at the very beginning, because you love wearing this color red? What sort of things are you proud of about yourself?
I know it's difficult to say things about yourself, but tell me a couple of things.
Akiko: Ah resilience definitely. And yes, I guess I am bold and assertive, although I think I am quite good at asking for help. I think I probably do it too much. I'm quite good at reaching out for help and also telling people what I'm not good at. It's a bit of, you have to strike the right balance.
Cause there's a bit, there's a little bit of trying to evade responsibility there because if I go around telling people I'm not good at that, it almost kind of gives me an excuse for not doing it, but I tend to do that quite a lot. It's really just to reduce the stress level because you just can't do everything. Right.
So, you know, I just tend to ask people to do things that I can't do or tell people that I'm really not good at that. And, you know, just really to reduce what I need to do.
Catherine: Well asking for help is certainly a really important thing. What kinds of things can you tell me that you would ask for help for, that you would say you're not so good at and go to get some help?
And is that from the associates in your firm or you're talking about people around you?
Akiko: Both. So for example, just something very, some very basic stuff. I don't like cleaning, so I've got Duskin coming in to clean my house. I don't like cooking. So I've got a lot of stuff that my mom made in my fridge.
So work wise, I hate Excel spreadsheets. So I would ask my assistant to do that. I hate numbers. I'm very bad at calculations, so if it was a very, like a number of heavy thing, I'll probably have someone else to do that. So I don't do derivative lawsuits, like the derivatives in terms of financial instruments. I just don't understand them. So Kazuki does all those stuff.
So many things, or other things like picking restaurants, I'm not very good at, so I'll just ask some of my friends who are good at picking restaurants, so almost everything.
Catherine: Wonderful. Well, I mean, I'm thinking, I'm thinking there's a few listeners who are laughing already, who know that I am also not very good at numbers.
I cannot stand Excel. I'm not good at calculation. And I know that my executive assistant is going to be laughing at that right now. So I think lawyers are not really generally good at that, but I'm glad to hear you've at least got one of your partners who is, so you're pulling on other people's strengths.
And I think it's a strength as a lawyer to be doing that. Cause it's very hard to ask and show that humbleness. Right. So I think you've got that kind of humble aspect to yourself as well, from what you're saying,
Akiko: But like I said, it's, I'm sure there's a little bit of humbleness, but there's also a little bit of trying to evade responsibility.
That's what I've said, I'm trying to strike the right balance.
Catherine: But honestly, you and me spending our time trying to learn Excel is probably not going to happen. And also, you know, if we're not good at numbers, we're just not good at numbers. Better to ask the people who are and to have them help us so that we don't make big mistakes.
That's what I think. Yeah.
Akiko: Yeah. Definitely for Excel. No, I'm never going to touch Excel.
Catherine: How do you encourage yourself then? Do you actually talk to yourself and get your mindset going in a certain way? Do you, do you also have a word of the year? And I do ask my guests this, because I'm very intrigued to know if you have a word of the year that guides you or a theme that guides you each year that you decide upon.
Akiko: I don't have a word as such, but you know I'm trying to cut back on things that I do rather than trying new things. So it's kind of the same thing. I mean, I'm just thinking about, you know, if there's something that I don't like, or I'm not good at, I just should stop doing it.
Catherine: Right. So like streamline, streamlining is something that you sound like you're doing, that maybe that's your theme
Akiko: Probably. Yes. Yes. Just to find a little bit more time for myself, reduce the stress level and all that. I mean, it's not like I'm super busy and really stressed, but still, you know, just have a bit more of a calmer mindset, yep.
Catherine: Well, being a lawyer is quite stressful. I mean, if you were not a lawyer, what would you be? Have you ever considered thinking about what that would be, or as you'd mentioned retirement, what that might look like after you've finished?
Akiko: I mean, I'm having the same conversation with many people, but if there was anything else that sounded more interesting than being a lawyer, I would have absolutely no hesitation in just stopping being a lawyer. But I've never come across anything that's so intriguing. So that's why I've continued to be a lawyer.
It's not that I don't like being a lawyer, but you know, if there's something else that I find very interesting, I'd be quite willing to switch to that, but it's just that I haven't come across anything. And I probably won't.
Catherine: Maybe it would be owning a cat cafe and having cats around you all the time, perhaps a cat cafe and having your mum do the catering.
And one of your colleagues do the accounting for you. How about that?
Akiko: That would be wonderful, yes.
Catherine: It's so good. Well, I think it's important we think about other careers and also for young lawyers who are coming up through the ranks. I think it's really good to hear someone like you, give a little bit of advice of how, you know, they could be as they were starting their career and how they would like to move through their careers. Is there something that Akiko would like to say that she would tell herself perhaps from 10, 20 years ago that you wish you'd known then that you'd like to let other lawyers know about?
Maybe something that you wished you had done better or that didn't go quite as you'd planned, and you'd like to provide that advice or guidance for lawyers, young lawyers who are listening today.
Akiko: I think especially for the female lawyers, I think it's very important that you try, if there's any opportunity to do something new, it's better to just at least give it a try, because if it doesn't go well, you can always just stop doing it.
The only reason why I was saying this was that when I was with Freshfields for many, many years, I didn't want to become a partner. For no particular reason to be quite honest. I just thought that I didn't really want to be a partner. And then Kazuki almost forced me to be a partner. I remember we were having this conversation when he was telling me that I had to become a partner to continue the practice.
And I was literally crying, saying, I don't want to be a partner. But in the end he convinced me, so I became partner. And once you become a partner, there's nothing, I mean, you're just doing the same thing with a higher pay. Of course it's much better to be a partner, but I just didn't get that.
And for some reason, I just thought that it’s not a kind of a female thing to strive for partnership, but that's all very wrong. So I think the point is that you don't really know yourself. I think that's the message I'm trying to deliver. I had always thought of myself as someone who wouldn't enjoy being a partner, who wouldn't enjoy going independent and all that, but actually I wasn't.
So I was really, I had the wrong idea of who I was. So, you know, don't just, don't just tell yourself that I'm this kind of person, I'm not very good at this and that, because actually, if you start doing something you're always learning about yourself. And I'm still in that phase.
Catherine: I think that's just really incredible advice. And I hope people are listening to that because I think what you're almost saying there too, is that others see things in us that we don't see in ourselves.
Akiko: Absolutely. I mean, I can give you one small story. I had always pictured myself as a very introverted person.
And I had always thought about myself as that for like 40 plus years. But during the COVID it was quite stressful not being able to meet anyone. So I was having a chat on a group line message with my friends from junior high school, so since I was like 13. And I was telling them, you know, I had always thought that I was a very introverted person, but actually, I might not be.
And everyone was like, what are you talking about? You’ve never been an introverted person. What on earth am I talking about? So I was like, really shocked because, you know, I mean, they've known me since I was 13, and the way that they saw me and the way that I saw me was completely different. So, you know, there's always something to learn.
Catherine: It's funny, isn't it? I mean, I was so shy at school and it was really only in my first career tour guiding that, you know, taking Japanese people around New Zealand, that it brought that out of me, that I became more confident But I see myself as essentially shy and anyone who is listening to this would say that that's rubbish, but it’s true.
So I feel that myself, but at the same time, maybe you are like me and that you are a little bit of both. That you are essentially, because you have to be in front of people and out there you are extroverted and to some extent, but you get exhausted as well, and you need that introversion or that time by yourself to re-energise.
That's how I view things for me. So perhaps you're a little bit like that.
Akiko: Oh yeah. I think so. Yes. Yes. That's very interesting. It's good to know that you're shy as well.
Catherine: I'm totally shy. I'll show you some photos later of me at school. And you'll see exactly what I'm talking about. It’s all over my face. But I'm glad that I've come out of that a little bit, but I guess too, with you, you're doing not only your law work, you're also, well, it is still related to law, but you're doing outside activities. I saw on your bio that you're also, you know, you're on an Audit and Supervisory Board at Kenedix, I think the name of the company is.
And you're also, you know, working on building labor policy with the Ministry of Health, Labor, and Welfare. So those roles are really, as a lawyer, are you finding that they're quite essential for you to be able to provide back to the community and do other things outside of your employment lawyer role?
Akiko: So, yeah, so all of those people, just for some reason, asked me to be on the panel or on the board. And so I try to do new things. So that's why I went on those boards and it's been very interesting to look at the real business world or, you know, things that I wouldn't normally experience. It has also been a good experience in that again, it showed, again, I was able to discover what kind of person I am in the sense that I'm not very good at executing things, but I'm not very good at thinking at a big picture level or on abstract ideas. So being on the board, I was thinking like, actually I'm not very effective. And so now I'm trying to learn how to be effective on those kinds of panels and boards.
Catherine: It's interesting. Right? So you, it's actually a way of learning about yourself and finding out that you're a great executer, but you're also learning how to perhaps think, and learn from others on the board who are big picture thinkers.
Akiko: Exactly. Yes. Yes.
Catherine: I imagine you're also quite detail minded though, too.
So you might see the details. They may not see the details and yet see the big picture. So you're probably complimentary in that way on the board. Is that right?
Akiko: Well, I hope so. We'll see. I'm still learning in that area too.
Catherine: As well as that, you're also, you know, you're winning these awards and it's amazing to see. Is that really something that you'd recommend to other lawyers to try and aspire to?
Or is that just something simply that's happened as a result of the work that you're doing? I just wanted to know if it's something that's important to you for branding or…
What is it about these awards that you've been able to manage to win them?
Akiko: They are definitely for branding and marketing. I mean, I think it's very, very, very, very, very powerful tool, especially because if you're starting your own practice and no one knows about Vanguard, and say legal counsel at X corporation wants to use Vanguard, I mean, the senior management are going to say like, who the hell are Vanguard?
But if you're on, say, chambers or you've won employment law firm of the year, I think it's much easier for people to retain you. So it's really for that purpose.
Catherine: Perfect. Perfect. Okay. That's good to hear. And I think great advice for others too, to just go and strive to win those and be seen, right.
If you're going to be out there as an individual or running a small practice with other partners to be seen and heard, award-winning is a way to do that.
Super. Well, I'm going to finish up very shortly. I don't want to finish. I obviously do need to for making sure that we get this out on the airwaves.
And I do want to wind up with the final super six, which is a round of six quick fire questions for you that I ask every guest. So the first question Akiko is; if I gave you a million yen in cash in Japan, where would you spend it? Your favourite store or destination? Anything.
Akiko: 1 million yen. I’d probably go to some kind of a beach resort in Okinawa. I’d just spend it.
Catherine: Yeah, sounds fantastic. They've got a small number of COVID people there too. So it's probably quite good there. Can you share a book that you've listened to recently, a book that you've read, shall we say, or a podcast that you've listened to recently?
Akiko: Book. Because of COVID I've been reading a lot of comic books, Manga and Shingeki no Kyojin I don't know, what's the English title? Attack of the Titan. Shingeki no Kyojin is a very good comic book.
Catherine: Okay. That's interesting. I know you have an interest in the Manga area. So if you're stuck on a desert island and you need to take one person, one item and one food item, what would that be?
Akiko: So the cat, the cat goes to the item, I guess. Poor cat, the cat’s the item. Person would probably be my youngest sister, cause I'm quite close with her.
And then the food would be onigiri.
Catherine: Yes, that will sustain you. Favourite wine? And do you wear perfume? What’s your favourite perfume?
Akiko: Oh, I don't wear perfume. Wine? I'm not really into the details of wines. I like wine, but I'm not very particular about wine.
Catherine: OK. All right. And what about your bedside cabinet? What's on there?
Akiko: Oh, a stack of books that I've half read and not finished.
Catherine: That sounds like me. And the best place you've ever visited or that you want to go post pandemic, maybe that's Okinawa, but is there another place that you'd love to go after you, after this has finished and we can fly again?
Akiko: Laos, did I pronounce it properly? It was fantastic. I'd love to go there again. Very relaxing.
Catherine: I haven't been there either. So that's given me some inspiration. Well, I'd really like to thank you so much for sharing your stories today, Akiko, your tips and your nuggets of advice. It's been really great to connect with you in this way, and I thank you so much. Can people get in touch with you?
Akiko: Of course. I'm on LinkedIn and also our website Vanguard Lawyers Tokyo. It has my email address on it.
Catherine: Fabulous. So if people would like to get in touch with you, then that's the way to get in touch with you, through the email, on your website or in LinkedIn?
Akiko: Yes.
Catherine: Okay, good. We'll put that in the show notes. So I'd really love to finish up there.
We've had a fantastic conversation with so many different things, and I'm really grateful for you for coming on today and being my guest. And hopefully this all goes well. And we do get Lawyer on Air out there on the airwaves for the first season of 10 lawyers. So I just want to thank you for your honesty and your humour.
And of course being a real beacon of inspiration for me personally. Oh, and last but not least a big happy birthday celebration for you on April 5th, because that's when this podcast will be released.
Akiko: Thank you. You're the first person to say happy birthday to me this year. Thank you.
Catherine: Yay, I'm so glad. And it's really exciting to have that and I hope we can have a drink to celebrate.
And so for all my listeners, please do like this episode and subscribe to Lawyer on Air. Do go ahead and share this episode with someone who you think would enjoy listening to it and be inspired to live a wonderful lawyer lady life. Thanks so much Akiko.
Akiko: Thank you.
Catherine: Thanks everyone. That's all for now.
See you on the next episode. Cheers, kampai, and bye for now.
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