Episode One: How to be an awesome lawyer in Japan
Full transcript follows.
Have you ever wondered what it looks like to lead a large legal team at a top international company? Today I welcome my good friend who is Associate General Counsel & Legal Director of Amazon Japan, Angela Krantz, to reveal what life is like as a senior foreign lawyer of a large team.
If you enjoyed this episode and it inspired you in some way, we’d love to hear about it and know your biggest takeaway. Take a screenshot of yourself listening to the episode on your device, post it to your Instagram Stories, and tag me and Angela, @lawyeronair and @angelakrantz or find us on LinkedIn or Twitter.
In this episode you’ll hear:
What Angela’s role is and how she got there
The strategies she uses to work remotely with her team during the Covid-19 Pandemic
How she manages her calendar and prioritises self care
Tips for new lawyers wanting to work in Japan
Her thoughts on having Japan experience on your CV and knowing the language
Why you should get experience in private practice before transitioning to in house
Things to consider when dealing with outside counsel that will improve your performance
Why taking a secondment is a great idea for building your career as a lawyer
How she is helping her team to avoid the pitfalls of working from home long term
Her favourite podcast and other fun facts
About Angela
Angela has more than 25 years' experience working in Tokyo, Japan, in private practice and as a General Counsel. Angela joined Amazon Japan in May 2016 as Associate General Counsel & Japan Legal Director, where she oversees legal, compliance and regulatory matters for the company and serves on the management team for the consumer business. Before joining Amazon, Angela took 2+ years’ off work to surf, renovate a flat and pursue other interests. Angela’s previous legal job was a Managing Director at Accenture Japan for 5 years, and prior to that, her first in-house role was as the Director of Legal Services for Mitsubishi UFJ Merrill Lynch PB Securities Co., Ltd. (Tokyo), formerly Merrill Lynch Japan's private banking business. She started her career in private practice in Tokyo for more than 10 years, working at the Tokyo offices of Morrison & Foerster and Clifford Chance. Angela has served as a member of several Board of Directors and management committees. Angela speaks English and Japanese.
Connect with Angela
Linked In: www.linkedin.com/in/angela-krantz-5938b311
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/angela.krantz.9
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/angelakrantz
Links
Angela’s favourite wine bar in Tokyo: Apero https://apero.co.jp/en
Her podcast recommendation: https://www.estherperel.com/podcast
Law jobs at Amazon Japan: https://www.amazon.jobs/en
Women in Law Japan: https://womeninlawjapan.org/
Connect with Catherine
Linked In https://www.linkedin.com/in/oconnellcatherine/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lawyeronair
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/catherine.oconnell.148
Twitter: https://twitter.com/oconnelllawyer
Transcript
Catherine: Hi everyone. And welcome to this first episode of Lawyer on Air. I'm Catherine O'Connell. And today I am joined by Angela Krantz and she hails from the beautiful country of Australia and is currently associate general counsel and legal director at Amazon Japan. Angela has lived and worked in Japan for more than 25 years.
Obviously gaining a very deep knowledge of top global law firms, and is general counsel of some of the world's leading global corporations. Ange is also an extensive board of director experience and experience as a management team member at Amazon she's on the retail leadership team and representative for several of Amazon's entities.
I understand that Angela manages a big team of 40 lawyers, contract managers and assistants. And at this level that Angela plays at, she's in charge of delivering the highest level of legal, regulatory and compliance advice on all kinds of complex business matters at Amazon. In particular, she's managing high-risk regulatory and compliance investigations.
And on the commercial side of things, she handles commercial transactions, I should say, in the hot world of e-commerce where we all know Amazon is top ranking. I’ve also found Angela to be a discerning person when she hires people and her hiring success of great team members who follow her lead is really well-proven.
And she's just second to none. She now manages teams not only in Japan, but across multiple countries. And a personal note, Angela has been one of my key supporters for more than 12 years. She’s cooked me many meals when we've shared our stories of online fashion purchases and decluttering. And she has helped me at many stages of my career.
And I've witnessed her and admired seeing her going from strength to strength as she has strategically managed her career path in Japan. She always has time for others and is a Sage when it comes to career advice. And most of all, I'm super proud to call Angela, my great friend and confidant.
Angela, welcome to the show!
Angela: Thanks, Catherine. I'm not sure how I'll be able to up that fantastic introduction, but I'll do my best. I'm super excited to be here.
Catherine: Thanks so much. I'm sure you will be able to rise to the occasion today. We're going to be talking about your career and how and why you got involved in work in Japan, how you're balancing all these different hats that you wear.
Maybe some of the issues and challenges that you face, and I'd really love you to give away some of your gems of advice for young lawyers on their career path. How does that sound?
Angela: It sounds like great fun. So I've learned a lot of what I do every day from you Catherine. So I'm looking forward to trying to top the introduction.
Catherine: Oh, thanks so much. I'm going to ask you a little question here about, well we're both in Tokyo right now. We're at a distance because we're doing this online, but if we were going to be meeting up in person, where would we be? Where is your favorite wine bar these days that you love to go to?
And what's your choice of beverage off the menu? Tell me.
Angela: This is the best opening question. I have lots of favorite places, but I think my current favorite wine bar would be Apero where you and I have enjoyed a beverage or two. During COVID, if I have to name another place, my boyfriend and I have often been to have lunch or dinner on the tiny deck of our favorite Italian restaurant.
Which is in Tsukiji, the old fish market.
Catherine: That sounds fantastic. And do you normally drink wine at Tsukiji place or would you have something more Japanese like nihonshu or sake?
Angela: Definitely wine. I am definitely a wine person. And I remember back to when you and I first met, I think we probably bonded over wine, Catherine.
Catherine: I think we did. And I was actually trying to reach back into my memory banks when that was when we first met. And it feels like to me, it feels like a very long time ago because we've been, it does feel like that when you're with good people who are good friends. Do you actually remember when it was, when we actually got together?
Angela: So I was trying to remember this when I was preparing for this podcast. And I think it was in 2006 or 2007, probably when I was working at Merrill Lynch. But I'm not sure because it's just so long ago.
Catherine: I think it was around there. I had put it at 2006, seven or eight. I think we were looking at trying to get an in-house legal network, an in-house lawyer network established.
Do you remember? With Julianne. And we couldn't really find a network in Tokyo that fitted for in-house counsel. There were lots for other private practice lawyers, but hard to find the resources for in-house. I think that's when we got together.
Angela: I think so, back when there were really so few foreign lawyers practicing here, especially females.
Catherine: Yes. And we were just trying to build a community around in-house lawyers, females who are in-house lawyers and just get together and exchange information and try to network, weren’t we?
Angela: Exactly.
Catherine: Right, well such a long time has passed since then. And I've mentioned your career or your current role at Amazon briefly, but when you're introducing yourself to people, how do you introduce yourself?
Tell me how you do that. And is it different when you're talking to a lawyer and when you're talking to non lawyers?
Angela: Oh, good question. So I don't think I introduce myself differently depending on the audience, because most people know Amazon, especially in countries where we have businesses that have been delivering during COVID.
So I just tell people that I'm head of the legal department at Amazon.
Catherine: And what's usually their reaction to that?
Angela: That's a good question. I think most people's reaction is either they love Amazon because it's been so helpful for delivery during the pandemic or hate Amazon, because they think we're getting too big.
Reactions are pretty polarized.
Catherine: It's certainly been a helpful business for me during the last year, I have to say. It's great. So tell me a little bit more then about your career before Amazon. You've mentioned a little bit there with where we first met, but what sort of got you into the law and made you choose a career in law in your early stages there?
Angela: So I would say that I just fell into law because I couldn't decide what I wanted to study at university. And in Adelaide, where I grew up, the law school at that time was very strong. So I ended up just deciding to go into law and then figuring things out later. My first job actually in law was working about 15 or 20 hours a week at a small criminal law firm in Adelaide whilst I was studying for five years.
But my first job as a lawyer following getting qualified was here in Tokyo. My whole career has been here since 1993.
Catherine: Yeah. That's quite remarkable, isn't it, to have had your first sort of official career starting in Japan?
Angela: Yes. So I think that's pretty unusual now for lawyers coming out here. I think most lawyers have experience in their home jurisdiction first.
Catherine: Yes. And I think often we're told to actually do some work back home before we come through to Japan. So your experience there is really very interesting, but going back to when you were a child, what did you want to be? Was it different to being, wanting to be a lawyer?
Angela: My grandfather was a doctor, so I always had one toe in the water considering being a doctor.
But I wanted to travel and I thought being a doctor would make that difficult. So I gave up on that idea pretty quickly.
Catherine: I understand. Okay. That's interesting. But I guess too, doctors look after people and as a lawyer, you look after people. So there's a similar thread there.
Angela: Yes, I think so, obviously they're pretty different in terms of the daily work content.
But in both of them, you can either be working by yourself or managing a team. And there's lots of different kinds of permutations of each of these jobs.
Catherine: Sure. And so that first role that brought you to Japan was that for the private practice role that you had?
Angela: So the reason I first came to Japan actually was to continue studying Japanese.
I studied Japanese at college for a couple of years, and I originally came here to study full-time Japanese just to improve my Japanese language. And once I got here, I thought maybe it would be a good idea to find a job in law. And I had no idea where to start. So I just sent my resume off to a bunch of the Japanese law firms and thought I'll stay for a year and get some experience.
And at that time there were almost no foreign lawyers in Tokyo and I was offered a variety of different jobs and I ended up moving to TMI associates for a year or so.
Catherine: And so have you found that Japanese as a language has been really centric in everything you've done since? Would you have been able to do what you've done so far without having the language here?
Angela: Oh, this is a good question. Actually, when I was preparing for this podcast, I was thinking about that. I'm not sure. I do think that Japanese language has become increasingly important to working as a lawyer in Japan. I guess that's in particular because there's so many non Japanese now who are qualified as lawyers and who also speak, read and write excellent Japanese.
So I think it's partly a competition matter. When I came here in the nineties, there were so few native English speaking lawyers that it was relatively easy to get a job even without strong Japanese language skills.
Catherine: So being in Japan and having Japanese really now on your CV, is that helping you? Will it also help you, if you decide to leave Japan that you've got a Japan history on your CV?
Angela: That's a good question. I'm not sure if anyone would hire me outside Japan, Catherine, because my entire resume is in Japan. So I'm really not sure. Having Japanese obviously is very helpful when you're working and practicing here. I don't know how helpful it would be if I left Japan, unless I wanted to work for a Japanese company.
Catherine: And so what's the attractive thing though, about Japan? What's keeping you here and wanting, letting you continue to work and live your life here?
Angela: That's a great question. So for now, it's my job.
Catherine: I'm asking you quite a few great questions by the sounds of it.
Angela: For now it's my job. And of course COVID because we can't really travel. So for the last year in Tokyo, it's been very interesting because I was trying to figure it out, and I think it's the longest time I've ever spent in Japan in one block. Since I first moved here in 1993.
Catherine: Yes. I understand what you're saying.
And I think I'm exactly the same. Both of us didn't go home for Christmas and we normally go back to our families in Australia, New Zealand and have time with them. And generally speaking, we are also very avid about traveling, aren't we? And so we’re normally outside of Japan several times a year, and that all changed didn’t it?
Angela: Exactly. There's been pros and cons obviously, but it has also been nice to have some more time to explore Tokyo and not to have jet lag for a whole year.
Catherine: That is true, that is true. But we do miss our families. I know that.
Angela: Exactly.
Catherine: Well speaking of COVID-19, did you find during the last year that being a lawyer and working here, did you find that your skillset was actually drawn to a higher purpose? That you had to do more than what you perhaps did in 2019 and the years before that?
Angela: I'm not sure I've been drawn to something different in terms of purpose. But I do think that COVID has reemphasized for me that it's very important to prioritize. Not just in work, but in personal life, spending time with family and loved ones and all the things that are around work.
And in terms of work, I think the biggest challenge for me having, there's about 70 people in the Japan legal team at Amazon, with everyone working remotely for a year now, I think the biggest challenge has been the communication piece because you don't have any hallway chats and you're doing everything on video, including having sensitive or difficult conversations.
So I think, I've had to be much more enthusiastic and empathetic when speaking with team members than I did when we were in the office more, and I could just bump into someone or take them out for a coffee.
Catherine: So when you say enthusiastic and empathetic, what does that involve? Does that mean having more conversations with them, checking in, those kinds of things? How do you become more enthusiastic and empathetic?
Angela: So I think on the enthusiastic side, I see my role partially as a bit of a cheerleader, because some people have been working by themselves at home for a year. Some people have had kids running around and people have got a lot of different kinds of circumstances that have made it either easier or more difficult to work at home.
So I always just try and be a very positive influence when I'm talking with people. I’m very upbeat and so on. And then on the empathy side, that's actually one of our themes this year at Amazon Japan from the management side is being empathetic because I think not seeing people in person means that you do lose some of that personal touch.
You're really not sure what's going on with anyone, as closely. You don't know what their personal circumstances are. So I always try and be mindful that there may be things going on that I have no idea about.
Catherine: I guess when people are online, you only see a certain feature, but how do you get behind that and find out what's really going on with people's lives and being really able to help them?
Have you had trouble with that or had actual success with doing that over the last year? I
Angela: So I think overall as a team, we've been pretty steady in still providing really high quality legal advice to our clients. But I think for some people not having the office atmosphere or the commute or that community that we used to have with most people in the office, three or four days a week, has meant that they've found the work quite challenging.
So if you're home in your apartment, for example, and living by yourself perhaps, and you're in front of your desk all day, the temptation is just to be working extended hours or staying up late and working because people are not going out anyway. So I think it's really been a matter of trying to figure out what people's priorities are and then helping them maybe reprioritize a bit so that they don't fall into habits of just working all the time or not going out.
Catherine: That's so true. Even for me I have to break the day. I would do the usual Japanese thing of turn off all the lights and close the laptop and go out for a walk, have lunch and make sure that I'm actually breaking away from the computer. Is that the kind of thing that you encourage of your team and also exhibit that yourself in the way that you do your work?
Angela: So one thing that I think for myself and I try and encourage this through the team as well, is to really prioritize and take control of your calendar, I call it. Because otherwise the calendar will just take control of you and you'll end up really not having any personal time. So I think it's really key when you're not going into an office and you don't have that same kind of routine that you may have had previously, to really look at your calendar and say well just because I could keep working after 6:00 PM doesn't mean I'm going to. There's plenty of other things I could do instead.
Catherine: It's very interesting. It's good that people hear that from you. And I think because of your nature perhaps, they really actually believe you. And if they look at your calendar online, they can probably see you've blocked time.
And perhaps in that calendar, you might be putting exercise or gym or what you're actually doing when you're off as much as when you are on. Is that what you do?
Angela: So I definitely do that in my calendar. I might block two hours here and there, or I block most of Tuesdays actually, because I have always put a few personal things on Tuesdays and I use it as an opportunity to read documents or get some larger projects done.
And I encourage my team members to do the same thing. Or you know, to work out, that kind of thing. I put that in my calendar, if it's during work hours, usual work hours.
Catherine: And do they choose the same day as you or they choose their own day that they find as comfortable for whatever they want to do for their personal reasons?
Angela: My team is super, I would say, I'm just laughing, but they're very independent. So they literally don't pay attention to what my calendar is. I think since COVID people have really been doing quite a good job figuring out which days they want to block some time out of. Some people might have a regular meeting, for example, with their business group, like on a Monday afternoon.
So they'd never block Monday afternoon because they have a regular cadence of meeting, and others might always start early, but then block all their time out after 5:00 PM for example, or always block out two hours over lunch time to have lunch and to work out. So it just really comes down to the individual I think.
Catherine: I like the idea there of blocking two hours. That's interesting. To have time to have your lunch, but also have time to do your exercise or walk or whatever it might be. It might be meditation or anything. Listen to music.
Angela: Exactly. Or even to read a document for work, I don't know how it is at some other companies, but at Amazon, if you have white space in your calendar, it’s probably going to get filled.
So if you want to take control of your calendar, you need to get in there first and block the time out that you need during working hours.
Catherine: Yeah, that's excellent. And I know you are really focused on exercise and keeping fit, so I'm really interested, and I think others will be who are listening to this, how you manage your average day. You're blocking out Tuesday, but for you, when you get up in the morning, what's the first thing that you're doing, the first few things that you're doing to start your day off right before you're getting into your calendar?
Is there something else that you're doing in your daytime there to ease into that day?
Angela: So I think I've changed my pattern a little bit since COVID. I tend to be a pretty early riser, so we get up, we have a coffee and usually we row, we have an indoor rowing machine. So that's been our new routine.
My boyfriend and I will each row. And then sometimes I end up working in workout clothes until at least lunchtime. So I have to warn people about that. We go on video usually. Or other times if my meetings don't start till a bit later, I'll have time to shower and put a bit better clothes on before I start work.
My typical day, three or four days a week, I have meetings from seven or 8:00 AM, especially with Seattle because of the time difference. But I always am pretty ruthless about stopping work before dinner. So I control my calendar like that and I try and find time to work out most days. It doesn't always happen like today it didn’t happen but I try.
Catherine: So you try to keep regular hours and manage it that way. And you're obviously right on top of your calendar. And so also you're letting your team know that, right? Do they feel empowered as well to be finishing their day like you do? They don't have that need to be carrying on?
I think we've talked about this a little bit, but is that it, they're seeing a reflection of you in themselves that they can do exactly the same thing?
Angela: Absolutely. Although I have to say, I always describe it, Amazon Japan legal team is falling into one of two buckets. They're either the early people, which is my group, or they’re more people who like to have a slower morning, work more what I would describe as the typical law firm hours, and start quite a bit later and then finish later. And that's fine too. It just depends on what each person's job is and what their personal schedule is.
Catherine: And that's Amazon as a total, rather than the people who are working in your team, that they have that sort of, other people in the company will work a bit later
Angela: People are pretty efficient. In my team, some people do work later, but they start later as well. But overall in the company, I think since COVID people's hours have become much more changeable and flexible because in the past most people at Amazon in Japan would go into the office three or four days a week and work at home once or twice. There was no real rule, but people followed that pattern. And then I think people work more to your standard core working hours, eight or nine to five or six.
Catherine: I guess everybody in the office is, the office shall we say, being virtual, but everybody else that works in the company would be thinking and presuming that people are going to be on when they are on. So there's an expectation to be around in those regular hours.
Angela: Yes. Although that depends on the team as well, because there are a lot of teams, even in Japan, who are only working for example, with Seattle or even New York or somewhere different. So they now fall into a pattern working with those teams. Some people are still going into the office now in Japan, usually each day it's less than 10% of our population, but even those people are working more flexible hours, I think.
Catherine: And so you've mentioned the rowing machine, what other kinds of tools or objects or rituals do you have that you can't live without? In your working day?
Angela: I can't live without my big monitor, which is stacked on top of 10 cookbooks, cause I've never got round to buying a proper standing desk.
And I can't live without my headset, but that's all. I'm very portable and flexible.
Catherine: Would those things be what your favorite things are in your workspace, or is there something else? I noticed before we went off camera, you've got gorgeous artwork in your apartment.
And so are those things around you also inspiring you?
Angela: I think so. I don’t have an office. So that's one thing I think that's very different from people in the Japan team versus people in teams where families live in bigger houses, but I like being able to look around and look at the view for sure.
Catherine: And if you were in the office, you're not going into the office now although some of your colleagues are, if you were coming back home, coming through the door, what's one of the favorite things that you would like to do at the end of the day’s work?
You talked about 10, more than that cookbooks propping up your Mac or your display there. Does that mean that you're pretty good at cooking? Cause I think you are, but would you be pulling out one of those cookbooks and cooking something delicious?
Angela: I do like cooking Catherine. You're absolutely right.
And in the old days, as I described them pre COVID, we'd go out for dinner a little bit more often. Of course now we don't really head out for dinner very often at all. Yes. That's meant that there's been a lot of cooking at home.
Catherine: Would that be your major wind down routine of the day?
Yes, definitely.
Catherine: Do you do anything else, such as any other beauty routines or anything else that gets you relaxed in the evening?
Angela: It's become a very different kind of routine during COVID, but when I used to commute to the office most days, I would like to come home and sometimes work out, if I hadn't had a chance to work out in the morning. I rarely have to do that now because I always find time in the morning or during the day.
But we like watching movies or I sometimes listen to a podcast while I have a bath. So yeah, a whole variety of things.
Catherine: So definitely having a bath would be very relaxing. And we are led into that too in Japan, aren't we, as part of our custom of bathing in the evening.
Angela: Absolutely.
Catherine: All right. I wanted to also ask you just a little bit more about running your team that you've got there.
Tell us a little bit more about that team, the members of your team, the cut between male and female and how you are... because you are currently away from them, how you're still continuing to nurture and grow that team. And also I'd love to know, adding a little bit more in here, what you look for when you're hiring, because you are well-known around the town.
And certainly I know very well that you do pick and choose very specific people to work with. So what are you looking for when you're hiring somebody? Those several questions all rolled into one.
Angela: Okay, let me try and bite this off piece by piece. Let me start with mainly, maybe a little bit of information about the team.
So in our legal department now, I think we're up around 70 people, comprised of lawyers, of course, including Japanese qualified attorneys, known as bengoshi and Japanese nationals who are qualified somewhere else, like the UK or the US, as well as several expats who are on assignment from Seattle, as well as contract managers, compliance specialists, law enforcement response specialists, legal assistants, and others.
So we're all split into teams and basically we're structured to follow the business. So there'll be one team, for example, supporting all of our third party selling. Or one team supporting all of our operations and logistics kind of work. And I have seven, I think, seven direct reports and each of them manage these pretty big teams.
As far as the gender composition goes, we’re about 60% female in my team, which is pretty good going for Japan as I'm sure you know, where a lot of the professional workforce is still dominated by men. So we actually have got a really good record in my team of hiring and also retaining top female talent, which I'm very proud of.
And that's actually really become even easier during COVID I think, because we've become so flexible as a workplace. Not just for working mums, but also for working dads. So on hiring, this is always a really tough challenge in Japan isn't it? Where there's more jobs advertised per person than I think in any other of the major countries.
But we look for people who are definitely very proactive and flexible because I think Amazon suits people who like, or at least don't mind uncertainty. And who are willing to jump in and do new things. It's very hard to predict what your job is gonna look like when you join Amazon, even though you join in one role, you'll soon have other pieces of a role coming to you or opportunities to do something new and different.
So I think it's really important to be someone who has a very flexible mindset, to be successful in our department.
Catherine: Exactly. And I know, I see you advertising or looking for people a lot on LinkedIn. And are you growing that team? I don't expect that's because you've got a turnover. I think from when I last heard you had 40 people now you've got 70.
So you're actually growing your team and people are, you’re retaining that talent, but you're actually strengthening it by hiring more people. Is that right?
Angela: We're certainly growing. So I think at the moment we're looking for five or six new attorneys to add to the overall team for this year. And we just opened those new headcounts.
And that's primarily, as you can imagine to support our growing business, which has really also taken a boost during COVID in terms of delivery and orders and basically across all areas of the business.
Catherine: Wow, that’s amazing. And so for any lawyer who was wanting to come and work in Japan or wanting to come and work in a big company like yours, what sort of advice would you give for those sort of budding lawyers or lawyers who are freshly minted and want to come over to Japan to expand their horizons?
Angela: Wow. So this is always a difficult question to answer, I think, because each company is so different, but for Amazon we actually do not hire very junior lawyers. The most junior lawyer we've probably hired would be three or four years PQE, in the Japan business. And that's primarily because we like lawyers to get experience at a top law firm before they come in-house.
We think that there are certain benefits to working with a law firm before you get thrown into more of the kind of flexible and unknown and less structured kind of environment like we have at Amazon. But for junior lawyers, my advice would always be to say yes, and by that, I mean saying yes to new opportunities, even if you're not sure that you're capable of doing them because somehow you'll always figure it out once you're in there. And if you hesitate too long, someone else will just grab the opportunity.
Catherine: I think that’s very true. I want to go back to what you said about law firm practice before in-house and we mentioned that a little bit earlier in the podcast, but I certainly agree with that.
I don't think I could have been as good an in-house counsel as I was, had I not had that sort of sturdy black letter law firm training, being thrown into court to do family matters or traffic laws to handling divorce cases and custody cases for clients and looking after them and seeing how they worked out their relationships.
And those sorts of things, going from that area right through to people setting up business in New Zealand where I was. So what is it about that law firm background for you that makes it really important before someone becomes an in-house counsel?
Angela: This is something that we've thought about a lot, being a big in-house legal department, but I think it's really the very consistent training and supervision.
So once you're in-house, you'll never spend 200 hours doing a due diligence for an M&A because your outside counsel will be doing it. But I think that actually working your way through that and spending some late nights and having to get really in the details and prepare these memos that may seem very tedious at the time, is actually really good training, not just for issue spotting and learning the basic law, but for writing skills, which are really important at Amazon.
You have to be able to write really well. So I think that just getting that day in day out training, doing basic work on large matters in a law firm cannot be replaced. It's very hard to get similar training like that in-house. Even in a really large in-house department like ours, where we have partner level lawyers, everyone's more independent.
And you're left a lot more on your own. Of course you have a manager who's there to help, but you are left more on your own and you don't have that day in day out consistent training that you would get in private practice.
Catherine: I think they’re really good points you make. And I also feel when I was traveling from being a private practice lawyer into in-house, and I remember the first week being told off because I was behaving like a private practice lawyer and not an in-house lawyer, back at Olympus. And then after that, I just also think having had that in private practice experience, when you are working with outside counsel, you understand where they're coming from and what their advice is going to be. How it's going to be structured and the way a deal is done, you know what's coming and you've got more insight on that deal. So you can understand the struggles and also the stress of outside counselors. They're advising you. Would you say that too?
Angela: Absolutely. So I remember, your story about Olympus reminds me that in my first week as in-house counsel, I wasn't actually sure how in-house legal departments received their work. Because, and when you're in private practice and you’re junior, work kind of trickles down from the partners. Whereas once you go in-house, I was suddenly thinking, wow, how do people even get their work when you're in-house?
But I think it's definitely true if you've worked in private practice and then you move in-house, you also have a good sense of how outside counsel will handle the work. And if you want them to handle it in a different way, for example, for a particular in-house matter, then you can tell them that upfront. Oh, I know you would usually staff this with this and this person, but for this one, we don't really need the gold-plated memo.
A fifth or sixth year associate would be fine just to work with directly with us on this. So you save a lot of time I think. Because, you know how they would typically work.
Catherine: We've got an inside story on them. Haven't we, when we’ve done that work. And so it makes it easier, it actually gives them a little bit of ease to be able to put the right people on the work for you.
Angela: Absolutely.
Catherine: So we were talking about outside counsel and managing them. Any other tips and hints that you have for perhaps in-house counsel who are listening today, who might be struggling with how they control or how they guide or delegate to outside counsel for the kinds of work they're doing? You're dealing with lots of transactions that are both commercial and also dealing with litigation.
Is there something we can pull out of both of those areas that you can think of that worked really well for you? That you can pass on as good advice.
Angela: I've thought about this question quite a lot, like in the context, because we use a lot of outside counsel, at Amazon. I think it's really important to figure out who the best lawyer is or who the best firm is for a particular kind of work.
And then really get the outside counsel involved in that work so that when you have a new project, they already understand the background. So you don't have to re-explain your entire business to them from scratch again. I think that's really important. And I also think it's really important just to be clear.
Give clear instructions. What do you need? You may not need a 20 page memo. You may just want a one page summary of the advice. And in that case, I think it's really important to tell outside counsel that.
Catherine: So when you say you get the outside counsel involved at the beginning, are you talking about interviewing them, and getting them involved in knowing about Amazon’s business, for example, just as a general catch-up and getting them and telling them about the business model before you actually need them on a particular job. Is that what you were saying?
Angela: Usually our outside counsel kind of organically start working with us.
It may be through sending a secondee, for example, which is always a great way for an outside counsel, particularly a bigger firm to start to get to know our business, or it might just be a particular matter. So we might have, for example, a regulatory investigation or a new kind of corporate matter.
And during the course of the very first work we do with a particular lawyer or a particular law firm, that lawyer or law firm will start to get to know our business in that area. So the next time we have one of those similar transactions, we'll immediately think of that lawyer or law firm to help us because we won't have to go back to A again and re-explain our business in that area.
Catherine: I get you. That makes lots of sense. And I agree with you with the secondee aspect. When you've had a secondee come in, they get to see the whole daily atmosphere, don't they, and how work is delegated and how work is done.
Angela: Absolutely. You must have had that experience yourself because I know you've done quite a few secondees, both part-time and full-time, so I'm sure once you've been there, you've felt like you've had a much stronger understanding of the business and the client needs and so on.
Catherine: I certainly do. I think when I was at Hogan Lovells and I was seconded off to Mitsubishi Motors in-house, just knowing the team there and working with them was so much easier when we went back into the law firm again, when I went back into the law firm. And then when I was transferred on a secondment to London, I also worked with Mitsubishi Corporation at that time, but I had a lot of understanding of Mitsubishi Corp having worked at Mitsubishi Motors.
So I definitely recommend secondment if people are thinking about that and putting their hand up for it.
Angela: Exactly. And for more junior lawyers, it's also a great experience. Actually, we have a first year from one of our, the outside counsel providers at the moment, first or second year. And she's great and she never expected to go on a secondment at this kind of junior stage in her career.
But I think she's gonna learn a lot being on the other side of the fence with the client.
Catherine: Yeah. Do you do reverse secondments where you have any of your staff go and work at law firms and work on particular deals to get a little bit more of a, mustering up of their skills or experience?
Angela: I would love to do this. We've actually discussed this as a legal department a lot. As of now, we've never done it basically because we've just never had any capacity to send someone out full time for an extended period of time. But I think it's a really interesting idea. And I think it also really helps to build a long-term relationship between the company and that law firm.
Catherine: Yeah. I would agree with you. Alright. Here we are at this time of the podcast, and I know by now if we were actually in person we probably would have had one glass, maybe a glass and a half
Angela: Maybe a glass and a half of red wine or white wine, depending on the day.
Catherine: Yes, exactly. And so I think it's about time we got a bit deeper into some of the philosophical stuff. So I'm going to ask you a couple of probing questions, for example, traits, things that you are most proud of. Would resilience be one of those? What kinds of things are you proud of about yourself?
Angela: If we're talking in the work context, I'm really proud that my team has managed to continue working and providing such high level legal services during COVID when we've all been in such a remote and tough environment. So I think that in the past year, that's the thing I'm most proud of; how my team has really come together and just done such a sterling job, including onboarding new joiners. Some of whom we've never met in person.
So I think for me, that's like the thing I've been most proud of in the last year. And that does tie to resilience as well. Not just for myself, but also for my team members, because it's been a lot to have to suddenly change our working environment completely, overnight basically.
Catherine: Yeah, I know you were doing one or two days a week or every two weeks at home, but I guess other members of your team may not have been doing that. So it would have been quite a shock to have gone full time out of the office. Is that right?
Angela: I think so. Before COVID most people in my team worked at least a day a week at home, or they might have gone into the office in the morning and then gone home in the afternoon.
But there's a big difference between that of course, and going to zero commuting overnight. And I think for most people it's been a really positive change. And the fact that we're a year in now means that it really is the new normal. And I think that expression is a bit overused, but if we had only been working at home full-time for three or six months, I think people would have just slid back into the old way of doing things pretty quickly.
But after a year you really develop new habits and new ways of working. So I think that that's what I'm most proud of, managing to hold the team together and help people get through any challenges that they may have had as a result of the new working environment.
Catherine: I think that's fabulous. And is there something else within yourself that's enabled you to do that? You've mentioned resilience there, but are there other characteristics? It's time for you to call out your good side.
Angela: What a difficult question. I think I’m very patient, I think I'm a pretty patient person. I'm sure those closest to me may not agree with that, but since they're not listening in right now, I can say it.
I think I've been much more patient than I thought I would be. And I think I've also been much more upbeat than I ever thought I could be, about dealing with kind of a challenging situation for a lot of my team members, trying to be relentlessly optimistic and positive.
Catherine: Absolutely. And do you have anything in the company where people get recognized for being upbeat or get recognized for the things that you've done to bring a team through?
Is that acknowledged by the company in some significant or concrete way?
Angela: Not really. Of course your manager says thank you, which is sometimes all people need actually. And we give awards. Within the legal department we have a quarterly legal all hands just for the Japan team and a different team lead manages that each time, and we give out awards for people who've worked on the biggest deals or someone who's done something special above and beyond, which may not even be work related.
So we try and recognize people mainly with thanks from their manager or from the team lead. Just calling them out, I think, is all a lot of people want actually, just some recognition.
Catherine: I think that's what people look for, isn't it? That they have been noticed, that you recognize them, you see them and that you give feedback in that way, because it's certainly encouraging when people tell you've done a good job and that you can tell that they mean it.
Angela: Exactly.
And I think it's easier with a hundred percent work at home, to fall back into the wallpaper if you're not careful. So I think it's very important for managers to encourage their team members, to speak out, to go on video when they can, when they're in meetings, and then to recognize them for their work.
Because I think it is quite easy to disappear a bit when you don't actually, when we don't actually see people in person.
Catherine: And do you as a team have goals and a vision for the team that everyone's working towards and you all share your goals and know what that is? And I'm also interested to know if you have a word of the year or a theme that guides you through?
Angela: So my word for last year was empathy, managing with empathy in terms of trying to understand that everyone's coming from a different place, and it's not as easy to understand that when you're not seeing the people every day in the office. This year, I'm not sure what it is yet.
We do all get very aligned in terms of goals at Amazon. For example, in the legal department, at the start of each year, we all work on our goals, like setting our goals for the year. Both within each country legal team and then some more broader goals across the entire legal department. And I think that's very useful process just for keeping everyone on the same page with what's important.
Catherine: I think as an addition to having your goals as a team, it's also really helpful I've found, to have a personal theme that guides me. For example, this year it's intentional so that anything I do is with intention. Last year was next level. And the year before that was audacious. These come about from having set up a business, but I'd certainly encourage that in amongst your team and people thinking of a theme to guide them. And sharing those, and for each other to know that within the team, it really helps them to try and help someone towards that theme that they're aiming for.
Angela: I actually love that. And I'm going to steal the idea.
Catherine: It's great. And I give my credit to, I have an executive coach and she does this with our group and it really is quite incredible how it focuses you.
So I'd encourage you to do that. You're welcome to steal.
Angela: I'm going to steal. It's what they always say that copying is the highest form of flattery.
Catherine: Except in your business, it's something we don't do, is it? Which is probably why you have that big law enforcement response specialist that you mentioned about before because of those kinds of issues.
Tell me a bit about Angela's relationship with Angela. How do you like to talk to yourself and encourage yourself and get yourself into a mindset that encourages yourself? Talk to yourself, what do you do?
Angela: So this is another good question, Catherine. You're really pulling them out of the box today.
I think for myself, I'm a pretty methodical person. I'm pretty organized, but every day doesn't always go as planned. So I think when work seems overwhelming, like either the amount of work or just the urgent matters I need to get done, I always look back at myself and say, look what really needs to get done?
Do I need to reprioritize what's on my to-do list? What should I do first? And what more should I be delegating? And I feel like if I'm having a challenging day at work, which we all do of course, once in a while, I think I really just try and step outside the immediate situation or the immediate challenge for a minute, take a deep breath and then just reprioritize.
Catherine: You actually find that you can do that? You can step back and literally take that breath?
Angela: Absolutely. Because otherwise things just pile up. When I get stressed, I don't know how other people deal with stress.
Then sometimes it just feels completely overwhelming. So I think you need to have some positivity and of course you need to take some action. You can't just sit back and totally ignore the issue and hope it goes away. Although that is sometimes a strategy, but I think it's important just to be positive and to take a step back and say, look, where should I start?
And once you've got little pieces to bite off everything seems much more manageable.
Catherine: And is there anything that you've done so far that now that you look back, if you'd had that chance again to do it, would you do it differently that you maybe didn't take a breath and something happened?
Angela: You know, it's always, looking back on things like from a day to day basis, it's always a hundred things I could have done better or should have done more of. But I think the main things that I would change in a kind of big picture, if I look back, is probably prioritization. Because I think without prioritization, your days become a bit messy, especially when you're in house and you're working on lots and lots of different matters at the same time.
Catherine: I think that's where it ties into my word of the year, intentional. It took a little while to get there, but I got there. Intentionally thought about intention.
Angela: That ties in though to our earlier discussion about calendaring in a bit of a different sense. Like you need to be intentional about your calendar and your time.
Where do I spend my time? How much time do I spend on different matters? And I think it's very important to be intentional. In making those decisions, otherwise you'll calendar and other people's priorities are going to rule your life.
Catherine: Exactly. And aside from this regime you have with your exercise, and I think keeping in touch with friends and family, are there any other outside activities you do now?
I know when I first met you, we were often meeting where it was networking and there was a lot of those kinds of Women in Law Japan or Foreign Women's Lawyers Association, as it was before, or the Japan In-house Counsel Network. Are things for you moving a little bit away from that more into, as I just mentioned, family and friends as your activities and that you don't really have that networking desire right now, even though of course we're online?
But I seem to sense a movement away from that for you. And is that an intentional - there's that word - an intentional approach that you are doing to networking and to moving away from that, and you've already got your community and deepening your ties with that current community? Tell me a bit about that.
Angela: I really like his question. I think, of course every day there's only, there's a finite amount of time in every day. And everyone needs to decide how they're going to use that time.
And I think one reason why I have stepped back a little bit from more of the outside activities, like Women in Law, although I'm still running some of those mentoring events and so on, is just because the Japan legal team at Amazon has become so huge that I don't even have enough time to speak to all the people in my team regularly.
And so what I've been doing very intentionally, coming back to this new word that I love, during COVID especially, is I've been making more time for my team members. So I, for example, instead of maybe going to a networking event, whether that's online as it has been the last year or in person, I'll do drinks, virtual drinks or drop by chats or mentoring type events with smaller groups of lawyers and legal professionals from my team, because otherwise I just run out of time. It's a very simple time equation.
But that having been said I do really enjoy working especially with young lawyers helping them develop their skills, whether that's inside or outside my team, and hopefully imparting some useful knowledge, given I've been working for quite a long time now.
Catherine: Yeah, I know that you are very passionate about young lawyers and bringing them up and raising them up and pulling them up the ladder and your devotion to the careers aspect in Women in Law Japan is especially well noted. And really thank you for that too. So I'm going to get to a couple of last questions and then we'll do a windup, a round up, or a windup.
Angela: It’s that time of day.
Catherine: It’s that time of day, we’re getting two or three glasses in by now, but what are you looking forward to most in this coming year? And what's next for you and your own goals, aspirations? That can be personal or career or both. Tell me.
Angela: What am I most looking forward to this year? Going home to see my family in Sydney, because I've never been away from them for this long, and also to meeting my boyfriend's family.
Because we haven't been able to go to Canada in the last year either. So that would definitely be on top of my list, followed closely by doing some travel. And I don't even care where it is at this point. I'm sure you understand where I'm coming from. I'm really dying to do some travel. So they're my top priorities.
Beyond that from a work perspective, My priorities this year are to continue growing our team. We've got, as we discussed earlier, we're doing quite a lot of hiring right now and to settle in the new joiners from last year and this year. I think it's incredibly challenging, starting a new job under remote work.
If that's at Amazon, it's a big challenge because we're such a matrixed organization and we're so big. So I have a lot of empathy for all of our new joiners. And I think one of my top priorities this year should be to continue to try and help new joiners onboard smoothly into our team so that they're not disadvantaged in any way from having joined during COVID.
Catherine: I think that's fabulous. You're really treating your work people, your staff, the people that you work with, like family. And I think that's really an admirable quality for a leader, as you are. Is there anything Is there anything that I haven't asked you that you wanted to have a chance to say today?
Angela: I don't think so. I did see a question when I was preparing about what would I have done if I wasn't a lawyer and then other than in my early years thinking I would be a doctor and then quickly discarding that idea.
I think I would have done something that's very creative, like landscape gardening or interior design or something along those lines, something completely different from law.
Catherine: That sounds like you because your house is very beautifully designed. And I think you've got a real flair for that.
So I could see you doing that.
Angela: Thank you. It would've been fun, but I might not have enough time left to completely start as being an intern interior designer, Catherine.
Catherine: There's always time. I'm going to ask you the final super six. This is a quickfire round of six questions. All right. So if I gave you a million yen and cash, woohoo, where in Japan would you like to spend it. Your favorite store or a destination or both?
Angela: I would use it to travel to some exotic destination once COVID finishes, maybe. Morocco or Brazil.
Catherine: Brilliant. Sounds good. I should join you on that. You mentioned you listen to podcasts and I expect you to do reading as well.
What, is there some podcast or book you can recommend?
Angela: So at the moment I love Esther Perel, do you know her?
Catherine: No, I don't. Tell me more.
Angela: She's my absolute favorite podcaster at the moment. She's a psychiatrist and she focuses on relationships. She did this whole series on personal relationships, but one of her recent series, it might be her most recent, is called How’s Work.
And in these sessions, she speaks to colleagues with very broken relationships on how to mend them. And she has so many great tips and I'm completely obsessed by her. I've been listening to them all back to back.
Catherine: Fabulous, I'm going to listen to her. You're stuck on a desert island and you need to bring one person, one item and one kind of food.
What, and who are they?
Angela: I’m sorry, Catherine. I wouldn't be able to bring you if I only had one person. Cause you can guess who that's going to be. That's going to be Haig.
One item would be my sunscreen because I never go anywhere without it. And one food… Does wine count as food?
Catherine: It sure does.
Angela: Sure does. So I would bring a bottle of red wine.
Catherine: Which leads me to my next question, favorite wine and favorite perfume?
Angela: So my favorite wine would be any Australian red, specifically South Australian red, because I'm from South Australia. And my favorite perfume at the moment is anything from Byredo.
Catherine: Ah, very nice. I would love to ask you why, but I'm going to move to the next one, which is, and I agree with your choice of wine.
I love south Australian wines. What is beside you on your bedside cabinet?
Angela: This is actually a hilarious question because we don't have bedside cabinets. And this is the actual last remaining project from my flat renovation, which was finished more than two years ago. And we just ordered side cabinets for the bed.
So at the moment, there's nothing, everything is dumped on the floor, magazines, books, headphones, you name it, it's on the floor next to the bed, sadly.
Catherine: Okay. That's fine. It'll all be tidied up shortly. And the best place you've ever visited?
Angela: There's so many, other than Sydney, of course, Hawaii, Mexico, anywhere in Europe, especially Southern Italy, and the list goes on and on. For the last year, of course I've been a virtual armchair traveler, like everyone else.
Catherine: Exactly, we all have. I thank you so much, Angela, for sharing all of your stories and your tips and nuggets of advice.
It was really fabulous to connect with you in this way. And so I thank you so much. Can people connect with you and how can they do that?
Angela: Of course. So they're welcome to reach out to me on LinkedIn. I'm pretty easy to find. My email is on LinkedIn as well. They can find me on Facebook or they can find me on Instagram and feel free to text or send me an email.
Catherine: Great. We will put all of those links in the show notes. So are you saying that anyone who is interested in connecting with you and learning more from you is welcome to reach out to you?
Angela: Absolutely. A hundred percent.
Catherine: That's fabulous. Thank you so much. I'd like to finish it up here. We've had such a fantastic conversation about so many different things, and I'm really grateful for you coming on and being my first guest.
And so hopefully this will all go well and we'll get Lawyer on Air out there on the airwaves with 10 fantastic women lawyers for this first season.
Angela: Amazing! You're going to do 10? I'm super excited about this project, Catherine.
Catherine: Thank you so much. I heard the other day from one of my masterminds that eight podcasts is where people get to, and then they fall off the wagon.
And so I'm determined, having heard that, to carry on and at least do 10 in the first season. We'll see where we go from there.
Angela: I think ten's a perfect number. And I think my favorite podcaster of the moment has 10 or 12 per season. So I'm very confident you can do it.
Catherine: Thank you. I'm glad I've got your endorsement and hold me to it, make me accountable.
Angela: I will. I will.
Catherine: I want to thank you so much for your honesty and for telling us your stories as one of the senior veteran leaders in the community as a lawyer here and a real beacon of inspiration, especially for me personally. So for all of my listeners, I'd really love you to like this episode, subscribe to Lawyer on Air, and do go ahead and share it with someone you think will enjoy listening to it who wants to be inspired to live a wonderful lawyer lady life. And so Angela that's all for now. Thank you very much.
Angela: Thanks so much, Catherine. This has been super fun and I can't wait to see you in person.
Catherine: Me too. So that's it for everybody now. And we'll see you on the next episode. Cheers, kampai, and bye for now.
Angela: Bye.
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