Episode Four: Managing your career in law for business success with Hitomi Komachi
Full transcript below.
As a woman in the law, have you ever pondered if you are managing your career as well as you could be? I heard Hitomi Komachi speaking on finding a niche and her own strategic career management at an online presentation for FEW Japan, and I just knew that her ideas had to be shared with far more than just the 20 or so people who attended.
If you enjoyed this episode and it inspired you in some way, we’d love to hear about it and know your biggest takeaway. Take a screenshot of yourself listening to the episode on your device, post it to your Instagram Stories, and tag me and Hitomi , @lawyeronair and @hitsnaps or find us on LinkedIn or Twitter. Or leave us a message here!
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In this episode you’ll hear:
How Hitomi found her way to the law through a fortuitous meeting
The benefits of becoming a lawyer in the UK vs the US and how that affected Hitomi’s choice of study
How her interests have determined her career path
Top two aspects she feels are important for women to train themselves in
What is CRM and how it is vital for lawyers in building their careers
Reverse Mentoring and why you should give it a try
What is calendar diversity and how it can be used
The importance of creating your own initiatives
Why Hitomi thinks it’s a great time to be a woman lawyer
Hitomi’s answers to Catherine`s super six questions
About Hitomi
Hitomi specialises in development and financing transactions in the energy, natural resources and infrastructure sector. She regularly advises government agencies, multilateral institutions, financial institutions, developers and sponsors on large-scale, cutting edge and first-of-a-kind projects in emerging markets, including in Asia, Middle East and Africa. She started her career at Allen & Overy’s London office, and after qualifying in the UK, spent 4 years in Allen & Overy’s Paris office, working primarily on power, renewable energy and natural resources projects. She came back to Japan in 2014 and spent time on client secondment at Japan Bank for International Cooperation. From 2016, she is part of Allen & Overy’s Tokyo banking team working closely with Japanese investors on outbound transactions in this field. She is part of the firm’s renewable and sustainable energy efforts and is a leading member of the hydrogen interest group.
Hitomi is recognised as a “Rising Star：Gaiben” by Legal 500 (2020). She speaks English, Japanese and French.
Connect with Hitomi
LinkedIn: http://linkedin.com/in/hitomi-komachi-03144333
Allen & Overy: https://www.allenovery.com/en-gb/global/people/Hitomi_Komachi
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hitsnaps/
Connect with Catherine
Linked In https://www.linkedin.com/in/oconnellcatherine/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lawyeronair
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/catherine.oconnell.148
Twitter: https://twitter.com/oconnelllawyer
Transcript
Catherine: Hi everyone. Welcome to this fourth episode of Lawyer on Air. I'm Catherine O'Connell. Today I'm joined by Hitomi Komachi, who is a Tokyo-based senior associate working in the well-known firm of Allen and Overy in their energy and natural resources and infrastructure team. Hitomi works on energy and natural resource transactions globally, and they include the areas of project finance, acquisition finance, and restructuring. She helps energy and infrastructure investors carry out their cross-border projects. For example, she advises government agencies, financial institutions, and developers on large-scale energy and infrastructure projects. Some of the things we see around like new power stations and natural resource assets. Hitomi is currently a leader in the firm's hydrogen interest group. A team, that I understand, she actually set up on her own initiative.
Hitomi grew up in Japan, Hong Kong, and Switzerland, and developed her career in London, Paris, and Tokyo. She graduated from the prestigious London School of Economics and Political Science. She obtained her Bachelor of Laws in 2008 from the College of Law. After graduating she was soon scooped up by Allen and Overy's London office. After two years in London, she crossed the channel to A&O's Paris office where she worked for four years and also managed to master the French language, making her a trilingual along with Japanese and English.
I believe that Hitomi also tucked in a client's secondment as well during that time in London which was working for the Japan Bank of International Cooperation. I hope she tells us a little bit about that experience today as well. Hitomi was admitted as a solicitor to the England and Wales Bar in 2010. From 2016, she joined A&O's Tokyo banking team as a senior associate. In 2020, she became a member of the Tokyo Bar Association and joined the ranks alongside me as a "Gaiben" or a foreign registered attorney in Japan. In 2020, she was also recognized as a rising star in the “Gaiben” category in 2020 Legal 500 Directory, one of the most renowned published law directories there are. I recently had the distinct pleasure of hearing Hitomi speak on a Zoom call at a FEW Tokyo event and she was amazing. I was immediately drawn to how frank she is expressing her ideas around the gender gap in Japan and how she's managed to build a career in a sector that, let’s face it, has a hefty gender imbalance. The legal sector itself has also been quite traditionally male-dominated, but Hitomi does seem to find that to be water off a duck's back. Let's get into it because I know you want to hear from Hitomi herself, not from me. So I'm really, really super proud to have you as a guest today Hitomi. Welcome to the show.
Hitomi: Thank you so much, Catherine. It's such a pleasure to be here.
Catherine: Great, today we're going to be talking about lots of topics, your career, how and why you moved from Europe over to Japan, and maybe you had some reverse cultural surprises when you came to Japan. Also your views on diversity and organizations, and I'd really love you to offer up some of your gems of advice for young lawyers on the importance of mentors and how to find a niche. How does that sound?
Hitomi: That sounds like quite a daunting task, but I'm excited. I'm up for the challenge.
Catherine: I'm sure you'll be fine. Look, today's opening question for you is here we are online and Japan has gone into its third state of emergency, but if we were going to be meeting up in person, where would we be? Do you have a favorite wine bar or restaurant that you love to go to? And what would you be choosing off the menu today?
Hitomi: It's quite a nice season at the moment in Tokyo, sunshine and it's getting warmer and on a day like this, I do miss sitting on a terrace in Paris or in London. There was a place near my home that offered that kind of environment. Emilia's in Jingumae, it's like a 10-minute walk from Harajuku. It's an Italian place. I love pasta. All my friends and family know that I'm a massive pasta fan. It's my go-to comfort food. For a drink, I would probably get like a spritzer, or a sparkling wine, if I could drink alcohol. I just had a baby earlier this year, so for the time being I'm on a Rooibos tea, but yeah, I wish I could order a spritzer right now.
Catherine: Oh gosh, we are so close together. Actually, it wouldn't be very far for me to walk to Harajuku, maybe 20 minutes. So let's try and do that sometime after. For our listeners today, it's just interesting for them to probably note that you and I really only recently met online, in March, when you were speaking for an International Women's Day event on the topic of finding your niche and managing your career. That was through FEW Japan, and I was really impressed by your wisdom. You seemed to be way beyond your years, and you really had some great and insightful observations about your career. So I want to delve into your career, at the start, if that's okay with you.
Hitomi: Yeah, it was one of the first events that I spoke at, on topics like diversity and career management. But I was very excited by the topic and got really into it as I prepared for it. I'm so happy to be able to come back and speak about it again with you for this podcast.
Catherine: That's great because I really thank FEW Japan or FEW Tokyo to be exact for showing me that you were there on this planet and that you existed. It was through that I thought I've got to have you on the show because the other reason was I didn't just want you to be kept to FEW Tokyo. I wanted to have your stories unlocked for a whole lot of other people to listen to. They're just too magical to let loose in a smaller group. I wanted them to be free, amongst a whole lot of other people. So let's talk about your career. You are Japanese by origin, and I know you spent your formative years in Hong Kong, Zurich, London, and Paris. I mean, let's face it, that's not your typical Japanese lawyer background, and I'm just really interested in how it was that you got to be in those places growing up.
Hitomi’s Early Years [07:41]
Hitomi: So I was born in Tokyo, but my family decided to follow my father as he got stationed from one city to another. He was working for a megabank at that time, a Japanese megabank, and was fortunate enough to get stationed in various financial centers. So that was Hong Kong, Zurich, and London, then he came back to Tokyo. Going to Paris was a decision I made during my career. The first post was in Hong Kong, then we ended up spending about five years in each city. So up to 11, I was in a Japanese educational system both here and in Hong Kong. I hung out with Japanese people, with Japanese friends and families, and was part of that Japanese bubble. When we moved to Zurich, that's when I started my American educational phase. My sister and I went to an international school. I had to learn English there. I started making friends at the international school, which was a bit of a shock to the system, but I think I would say that time was probably the most important one. I adapted and met a lot of people from different countries throughout my time at the international school. I went to London when I was 17, just for my last year of high school, with my father and my family. Then I ended up staying there for university and law school and getting a job there.
Catherine: Wow. Okay. So Hong Kong was basically a Japanese school, you were mostly speaking Japanese and using Japanese in Hong Kong, then the switch to Zurich where you're in an international school, right? So you switched to the US frame of mind and an American way of speaking over there, is that right?
Hitomi: Right. My international school in Zurich was very much based on an American educational system. They had a few British teachers but most of the curriculum was American style and advanced placements. So that school followed the American curriculum, mostly.
Catherine: Right. So it's really thanks to your dad that you got to travel around at a very early age and get your eyes quite wide open to all kinds of experiences.
Hitomi: Yeah, that's right. I got used to moving around a lot. Even as I became a lawyer with Allen and Overy, I've stayed with the firm all my career, which is actually not that common amongst professionals these days. I moved from London and Paris back to Tokyo, you know, every five years or so. I've gotten into a habit it seems, like just moving around, I'm a bit of an international nomad.
Catherine: Right. But probably your baby now is going to make your stay in Japan for a little bit longer than just five years. Right?
Hitomi: Yeah, that's right. It's actually the first time coming back to Japan where I just thought, okay, this is where I can stay for a while. I can't say forever, but yeah, I'm actually finally feeling a bit more settled than usual.
Catherine: We are glad to have you back. I'm sure the firm is as well, but I want to go back to when you mentioned you'd gone at age 17 to Paris, right?
Hitomi: At 17 I went to London.
Catherine: I'm sorry. I'm sorry, London. So at age 17, you're in London, but there was something that happened before that. I think when you're around age 15, you had a significant fortuitous meeting with a lawyer who was really, truly important to you. Can you tell me about that experience?
Meeting a Mentor [12:10]
Hitomi: My school in Zurich was in the middle of a farm. It was quite laid back, I must say, and it was very small. You know, as we had lessons, there was like cow manure and it was just a very laid-back environment. But the one thing that they did very well at the time was an annual career fair, inviting the parents and their friends to come and talk about their profession. So I was very lucky to meet a Korean female lawyer who worked for a global bank, in Zurich, as an in-house counsel. She allowed my friend and me to shadow her just one day at the bank which really opened my eyes a bit. So I had some exposure to law, in that my great uncle is a lawyer and some of our family and friends were lawyers as well, but she really opened up a glimpse into what it's like to work as a lawyer at a bank. She explained how the bank was structured, and it's a global organization, so a massive structure chart. She talked us through that. She also talked about how she's the go-to person on the Sarbanes-Oxley Law that had just come out, so she was a specialist on tax, and then she took us out for lunch.
So it was sort of like seeing the benefit, the corporate benefits, working for a bank, and obviously, you appreciate the free lunch. So all of that was very exciting for me, but the biggest thing that I took away from that I think was her constant reminder to us that we are the future. You know, you girls can do what you want to do, don't hold yourself back. It was a sort of constant message that she gave to us, throughout the day. Now I understand why, looking back and knowing about the diversity issues that our profession faces, and women around the world facing the same diversity issues and challenges. Back then, it wasn't that apparent, but it was just a strong message that came through to me. I really liked her optimism and her charisma and I think that's what drew me to the profession in law.
Catherine: Before you went to that careers fair, you didn't know she was going to be there.
Hitomi: No not at all. I just met her that evening.
Catherine: Happenstance, you just happened to be there and she happened to be there. Was it the Korean nature of her that attracted you or did she stand out from the other people who were there? What attracted you to talk with her?
Hitomi: I think so. Going to an international school, it's sort of like everyone is different. I liked that environment and I would probably touch on this a bit later. I'm so used to being different that I don't know that she being Korean and female, it wasn't a conscious attraction point for me. She was very positive and charismatic, so I think her personality was what attracted me to her. When we went around the fair she was the person that I was inspired by.
Catherine: She really took care of you. I think she must've seen something perhaps with you and your friend and taking you around and looking after you, are you still in touch?
Hitomi: Yeah, and she did very well because my friend and I both ended up in law. My friend is a sports lawyer and I'm a finance and energy infrastructure lawyer. She's still working for another bank and she heads the diversity initiatives for that bank. So she clearly had a calling and this is something that she's very good at, inspiring the younger generation.
Catherine: Right. And I think perhaps from that, you are now trying to also inspire the generation that's beyond you, your younger generation.
Hitomi: Yeah, that's right. It's not just her, I had loads of female and male mentors over the years and I definitely would like to give back by giving them messages and encouraging the younger generation coming up.
Catherine: Right. So you had a combination of people, you got your great uncle and some other friends, and also this Korean fabulous lawyer who you met did that then enticed you to go into law? Were those the triggers that set you to thinking about where you could study law and perhaps doing that in London?
Hitomi: Yeah, that's right. So in the beginning, my great uncle also showed me what a career in law is like, but very different from the Korean mentor. He was one of those figures that would always bring peace and order to an otherwise chaotic situation in an environment. So in terms of the protection of justice and orderly procedure he's that kind of a person that showed me that side of the profession, which is also interesting. A combination of those people made me think about a career in law.
Deciding to Train as a Lawyer in the UK [17:34]
Since I was in an American system, I thought about going to an American law school after going to university in the UK, but I heard about this great thing called the training contract, which UK firms offer. The UK law firms recruit very early which I think is a great thing to do. If university students are recruited by these firms they offer living stipends and scholarships for law school. Then for the two years of vocational training that's required for the UK solicitor qualification, you'd be employed by the firm. It's sort of like four years of free education training, and possibly a job at the end. So it just sounded like a much better system to me than going to a very expensive law school. I was immediately drawn to this when I heard about it in London and I started to apply.
Catherine: I think you mentioned that it was too much of a good deal not to have a go at it. They bring you in and really, very much look after you and that's obvious to me why you've stayed with the firm because they've nurtured you and you've been able to be under their wing, from the very beginning. Would that be right?
Hitomi: That's right. I think that they do it very well. Allen and Overy, and other UK firms, during the two years of vocational training, allow you to sit in four to five different departments. So it's very good for people that don't know what to specialize in because practicing law is one thing, but finding your area of specialty is a completely different thing altogether. Depending on where you end up specializing, it's a completely different sort of career path. Be it working at the courts or on more commercial or corporate matters. So it was very good for me to do that. I was initially very much drawn to arbitration and litigation. But I quickly realized that I'm a bit too impatient for it. I liked the fast-paced commercial corporate environment.
Catherine: Yeah, it's interesting. If I compare that to say New Zealand, we don't have the rotation of seats and different areas, but we do have that system where for example, I would appear in court for a family matter or theft or defending someone who'd been doing speeding or drunk driving on the weekend, appearing in court on Mondays. Then I would be doing business sales and transactions and immigration, all kinds of things. So getting that exposure at a young age, I think is really important to find what you're drawn to in the area of law because there are so many different areas.
Even though you didn't like litigation in terms of it not being fast enough, for me too it wasn't where I wanted to go, but I was so glad I had that grounding in litigation standing on your feet, appearing in court, and being able to look after people in that kind of way.
So I think that's really interesting that you mentioned that and that's great advice for people to think about. Which firms they go into and how people will look after them as they come through and think about their career. It's a big investment to go into law and we really need to think about these things and have the right opportunity. So I really liked that you did that.
Then after that, you went to Paris. So was that another opportunity offered to you that you saw and you jumped in? Or how did that come about?
Working In Paris [21:42]
Hitomi: Yeah. Throughout my rotation, I was thinking about what I wanted to specialize in and I liked the energy infrastructure and natural resources sector that I specialize in now, because of the idea that we're creating something tangible. So large-scale power plants or a cement factory that might turn a country around, huge projects that really are national news. I really liked that about the sector and I was starting to think about what I could do to work on my specialty.
At that time, after my training, I had quite a bit of exposure to the financing aspects of this sector, but I hadn't had that much exposure yet, to the construction side of things. In terms of actual construction contracts or operational contracts, that are needed to run these large-scale construction projects. So I sought advice from some of the associates that I worked for and they said that a couple of specialists on construction are based in our Paris office. I had a chat with my supervisor at the time about my interest in going to Paris and working for those specialists. There wasn't a position at the time, but I went off to do some other work, and then eventually, I think after a year or so, the position opened up and that's when I went across the channel.
Catherine: Right. So you sowed the seeds yourself though, quite early by saying I'd really love to go into this area and when an opportunity came up, you were thought of first. So that's a really key aspect isn't it, to be able to seek out opportunities within the firm. At the time when you're working for associates, when you're in a seat and rotating, you're working with the associates, aren't you? So it was wonderful they gave you that advice as well, but I'm glad that you're telling us that you sought that out and put your hand up and you were not afraid to do that.
Hitomi: Yeah, that's the thing when you're a junior. I didn't know the bigger picture of our practice and how our practice was evolving and growing. What I didn't know was that at that time the pioneer of our African practice, who I ended up working for very closely in Paris, was growing his business because our African practice was.
The demands coming from the clients on African work were just growing exponentially and that coincided with the growth of the first wave of renewable energy projects across Europe and Africa. Because the benefit of these renewable energy projects is that they can be quite small scale, but they can be rolled out very quickly in emerging markets, including in Africa, there was a big appeal there for African clients. I didn't know all of this so that was very lucky because I had voiced my interest, I suppose they said, you know, give this girl a chance.
Catherine: I think it's more than just supposing. It really did come from your sort of putting your hand up. We don't know when we are a junior or beginning as a solicitor what the big picture is, but we are just lucky or fortunate that people around us can see something. Or if you show a spark of interest, often people will pick up on that and put you in the right direction. But a lot of it comes from you and that's what I'm trying to say, the opportunity was there, but you were also very insightful to that sort of thing. Maybe your time in Zurich with your international crowd helped you to be quite assertive at that point, but I do like that you actually took your own path there and it came to you eventually. And then you had a secondment to Japan. So was that during your time in London or in Paris?
Working with Japan Bank for International Cooperation [25:50]
Hitomi: That came right after Paris. I ended up staying in Paris for four years. I came back to Japan at the end of 2014 to go on a client's secondment at JBIC. That was a position that A&O wanted to fill and that was proposed to me and I was really excited about that because by this point I had done a few projects with JBIC where they were the key financier in the deal. I saw them as the Primadonna of the financing world. They can come in and basically say, this is our policy, or this is our condition and that's it, take it or leave it. They were in that kind of powerful position and I really wanted to see from the inside how they operate and what their priorities are. So I actually jumped at that opportunity. I really wanted to come back and do that, so I ended up going on secondment for a year and a half.
Catherine: You kind of almost interviewed them while you were working with them. So when the opportunity comes up and A&O needs to fill that position, you're there because you've already worked with them. So you're a natural fit.
Hitomi: I'm not sure if they felt that way, but yeah, I came in and I asked them those questions and JBIC has an export credit agency, a Japanese government agency. I think I offer so many questions from a private sector perspective and I asked them why they don't market their services and things like that. They were just like, well, we're a government agency we don't do marketing.
Catherine: People come to us. People come to us. We don't have to market.
Hitomi: Yeah. What rankings and things like that, no, we don't care about rankings. I can just do what we see as a strategy that's important for our nation. And so it was very eye-opening to see how they carry out their mission, which is very much focused on the Japanese government's strategy, particularly on energy and natural resources. So I ended up working on a few natural gas projects for Japan, which was very interesting.
Catherine: Very interesting. I'm sure your father was watching you avidly, as you were working through with another bank. He would have been quite interested in that, I'm sure.
Hitomi: Yeah, his area of specialty was private banking and trading and things like that. So he probably saw me as someone who's really pursuing her niche. Probably.
Catherine: I think you could ask him that sometime. But when you were a child, does your dad or your mum remember what you said you wanted to be when you grew up? You know, that big question we always have is what do you want to be when you grow up, what was that?
Hitomi: I kind of dotted all over the place. I think I wanted to dabble, classical music at one point or teaching and then in advertisement as well. I was also interested in makeup, becoming a big makeup artist, I was kind of all over the place. So I think they would say it was quite unexpected that I chose a career in law. One thing that they would probably agree with is that I quite like tangible things, so building things. I probably would have ended up somewhere in energy and infrastructure at some point.
Catherine: If you hadn't had that happenstance meeting at the careers fair with your Korean lovely lawyer, I wonder whether you would have gone on one of those other paths. You’re talking about tangible, but law sounds a little bit almost intangible, but it links to tangible topics and sectors. Perhaps you would have ended up there eventually, but do you think you could have had a different path if you hadn't had that chance meeting that day?
Hitomi: I think what really drew me to law is being a go-to person. She talked about that at the Career Fair but I probably would have found that attractive about professions like engineering or something technical like that. So through that, I may have ended up in energy and infrastructure, who knows. I absolutely think that's one of the benefits of being a lawyer, being asked the questions, being the expert on something.
Catherine: Right. So thinking about your work now, I think you're on maternity leave right now, aren't you?
Hitomi: That's right.
What Hitomi Loves About Her Current Role [31:09]
Catherine: What do you really like about what you're doing in your job now with the kind of role that you have in Tokyo?
Hitomi: I see my sector the same as in the international school environment where you see so many people from different countries. If we're working on the construction or the financing of a power station in the Middle East or in Africa, there are lots of different financiers from different countries, different exports of goods, and different contractors coming in from many different countries. It's very exciting to get all of those people together in a room. It's one of those sectors where those kinds of meetings still happen, where you have more than 30 people come to one location every month or every other month and try and bottom out hundreds of pages of contracts. There's something to it. It's sort of like an international convention. I do enjoy that kind of environment, but on the other hand, I actually do enjoy drafting as well. Every so often I do get a chance to just sit all day with a loan agreement or something, that's my old comfort spot, where I can just tuck away and do my thing for the day. So I quite like that as well.
Catherine: That's the original craft of a lawyer, isn't it, to put the wording together. I'll confess alongside you that I like that kind of work myself as well. I think it's really central to a good lawyer to be able to put the intention of the client into something that's going to work for them later. So that they can have less risk and be able to go through their contract period very successfully. I know one of the other things that you say, or a mantra that you stick by is being really clear about what you want to get and how to get there. Sometimes we're consumed by these day-to-day tasks and it feels like there's not really enough time to think about the how, but I know from having heard you, that you have several tools in your tool belt that you felt really useful to guide you. I know you've got a lot, but perhaps you could for today, just cherry-pick a few of the principles that have helped you to lead out that lawyer life and build your niche in Japan.
Targeted Training for Women [33:45]
Hitomi: Yeah, sure. Over the years, the firm has offered quite a lot of training, particularly in recent years, training targeted at women. At first, I was like, what's this about? But having done it, it was really helpful actually because there are certain skills I think that as women, we tend to not think about too much. So I'll just talk about a few. The first one is really about communication skills and how we adapt our communication style to different people. A lot of us probably do this unconsciously, but in this training, we did personality tests to see what we're really like and what others are really like.
If I'm an extrovert and I'm talking to an extrovert then that's fine, I don't necessarily have to adapt my communication style, but if I'm talking to an introvert, then I should think about what type of communication would resonate most with that person. That was quite eye-opening for me because it takes the speaker out of the speaker’s hat and made me realize that it's more about the person that you're talking to. Really understanding that person, that kind of comes back to career because I think having a support network is really fundamental to having a good career. That's been very important for me, right from the get-go, as you heard from the career fair, but also trying to figure out what I should do, what's happening in the sector in the next five to 10 years. There's so much that we can read or hear on the news, or just research ourselves. It's a lot more helpful to have a whole network of people globally who are experts on the sector as well and hear their views too. So communication style is key to getting their support.
The other one I found most useful in the last two years or so, is about sales, and sales skills, because lawyers, myself included, do a lot of alone time with contracts and drafting and the technical side of our jobs. But it's also important to be able to sell our services to the people who need them. So tracking services that we were able to sell, or really planning the business development days or time has been quite important, and it is increasingly important as I get more senior.
Catherine: Right. So you're talking about keeping a track of projects that you're working on or clients that you've met, or potential clients, and tracking it almost like a system that salespeople use when they're tracking their clients or potential future sales. Is that how you're making that analogy between a sales guy or salesperson and how you’re operating in your work?
Hitomi: Yeah, that's right. So CRM, I think that’s the sales system. Having spoken to a few people in sales, they're always like, oh, lawyers don't use CRM. Some lawyers do use it, not everyone, but I think it doesn't have to be that sophisticated. In the beginning to just simply track how many projects we're working on and how much this is bringing into the firm helps to visualize, in terms of knowing the market value, or value you bring to the table.
Catherine: So you're visualizing your client pipeline through that system, and also you've got that ready. If you've got a chat with your boss, you can immediately draw on those aspects that are hiding in your CRM. Is that how you also use it?
Hitomi: Yeah, definitely. It's good to just have that at the back of your mind, just talking to anyone, just to be able to talk about what you do. I also found people tend to shy away from that a bit in our profession. Also, women as well shy away from saying this is what I've done, or this is the target and give a figure. So having those kinds of figures at the back of my mind helped me have those types of performance discussions as well.
Catherine: Yeah, you're saying not to be shy about that, to be really proud and consider that what you've achieved is really important as a human being, but also just to take yourself further forward as well. Is it important for us to be a little bit more vocal about what we've achieved?
Hitomi: Yeah, definitely. Oftentimes when looking at others, and I obviously thought this too, we tend to underestimate ourselves and maybe overestimate others. So it’s important because I think we forget all the good things that we've done, and maybe we just focus on that mistake that we made, or we could've done that better. But there are so many things that every one of us is doing that are positive, and we shouldn't forget that. So I think people in sales or maybe bankers are used to putting figures on their achievements, and it's more natural in other professions, but for us as lawyers, it's less natural to do that. So yeah, it was quite refreshing to look at it from that sales perspective.
Catherine: So true. I think during your training, tell me if I'm wrong, but during my training, I certainly did not get any advice or guidance on tracking and putting a financial number on the potential that's in the pile there on the pool, ready for what could be drawn on. Especially if a partner can help you later in the future, for example, but we didn't really have that way of analyzing our work. We build work as part of what we need to do for an hourly charge rate, we bill out to clients, but not seeing it and that bigger picture, I think may disadvantage lawyers. So I hope that you're also helping your other associates and other people in the firm, and beyond that, your other lawyer friends and other people who you work with to help them set up their kind of CRM. Are you doing that kind of thing to help others?
Hitomi: Yeah. The sales bit came out of targeted training for women, and that really drove home to me the fact that especially us women are maybe lacking in that way of things. Men tend to do that more naturally perhaps. So yeah, I'm talking to everyone that would listen, in and outside of the firm, to just plant that idea, because as you say it's not something that comes naturally. We all want to just deliver and we'll allow our time to meet our deadlines and so on, but it's so important to see our career as a business and think about how to take that forward because change will happen. We have to live with all these risks now, you know, with COVID, technology, and competition from inside and out of our legal profession. If we don't know our value then we may not be able to protect it.
Catherine: Oh, I love that. If we don't know our value, we're not able to protect it. That is so awesome. And I know that perhaps that training is quite unique in Japan or perhaps within firms, I haven't heard of other firms that do that specifically, for women. So kudos to your firm for doing that. I know that there are also other diversity initiatives that I think your firm is doing, I'd really love you to tell us a little bit more about that. I do know this is something that you're also passionate about, helping organizations find and discover, and work on diversity initiatives.
Mentorship [42:29]
Hitomi: Mentorship is key for diversity. I think having mentors that are similar to our backgrounds and seeing those mentors do inspiring things. That goes for the senior lawyers in our sector, but also be aware that we can be mentors as well for the younger generation. One other thing that I think we discussed at the FEW event was something called reverse mentoring, where the junior staff mentors the senior staff. That's been very popular in my firm as something that really helps both the juniors and the seniors, with the seniors actually gaining insight from what the younger members of the firm bring to the table. That's been hugely successful and been rolled out globally within my firm.
Catherine: Is that an optional thing or is that everybody does that as part of the normal culture within the firm now?
Hitomi: Yeah. So every time an initiative like that comes out we tend to try it out on a few people in different offices and then gradually, if it's popular, then it spreads. This is the third or the fourth year of us doing the reverse mentoring, it's spreading more and more, but it started in a few offices around the world and then expanded.
Catherine: That's wonderful, you also do diversity in different ways too. You have mentioned in the past about calendar diversity, which was the first time I'd heard of that, and being very aware of not only, as we're talking about gender or age diversity, but also across your different organizations, especially the projects you're doing. I'm sure they're reaching into different countries. So you have a calendar diversity. Can you tell us a little bit about that? Because I think that's quite cool.
Calendar Diversity [44:34]
Hitomi: Yeah, that's right. So in our sector, day to day it's a must because just to get the deal done, we have to know when the public holidays are in all of the countries that are involved in the project. We can't have a signing day on a public holiday, in one country, and oftentimes there are about 10 to 15 jurisdictions that are relevant to our particular signing. So we would come up with a calendar just for that project and then that expanded to us being able to talk to clients. So it's your public holidays coming up? What are you doing? It was great from that relationship perspective as well.
I saw the other day that we're also running workshops on Ramadan and this is an internal event, for us to understand what Ramadan is all about, what's celebrated, the rules that are followed, and why Ramadan happens. Those types of training or sessions are being rolled out as well.
Catherine: Yeah, it's very respectful to other cultures. It also allows those people to enjoy those holidays that they have and festivals that they have. On the reverse, with Golden Week coming up in Japan, we can be having our holiday also respected, right. And people aren't expecting us to be working or perhaps if we are working maybe delay on the response times. So I think that's a really quite simple, but also very effective initiative you've got there.
Hitomi: Yeah, correct. Someone said managing cross-cultural diversity is about being polite as the first step, so the calendar thing is part of that. Everyone's got weekends and everyone's got public holidays, but different ones. So let's respect them and have a chat about it.
Catherine: Yeah, that's right. Sunday and Saturday are not holidays in every other country. So respecting that is really important. I think that leads to tips for long-term success as a lawyer. That would be one of them, being respectful across cultures and looking out for ways in which we can be respectful. Another tip you've mentioned in the past was about taking up leadership roles because they're “like a gold token” and I loved that expression, and being intrapreneurial, being an entrepreneur within the firm. You saw a couple of gaps and perhaps that was maybe over the last year or so with the hydrogen interest group and the legal tech initiative that you got your teeth stuck into. Can you tell me about that?
Taking Up Leadership Roles [47:45]
Hitomi: Yeah, sure. I think it was partially because of COVID and the lockdown, and me just sort of being bored at home. The hydrogen piece is kind of all over the news at the moment, isn't it? The next climate change and environmentally friendly energy source, that's something that we've been focused on over the last few years. We really started to excel our pace on building our know-how and experience on it in the last couple of years, I suppose. I was thinking about bringing together different people from our network because one of the assets we have at A & O is a very tight-knit network of more than 30 offices around the world. I could be sitting in Japan talking to Japanese clients, but they might be interested in investing in Germany or Spain or Portugal, who are leading on the EU front on hydrogen, with lots of different government support schemes available from the EU, the EU Green Deal, for example. So, together with the partners, we were brainstorming how best to utilize our network and leverage our network to bring the best capability. We decided to set up this group and we have regular update calls and share our experience in the sector and our discussions with our respective clients in the local market, which has been very interesting.
I think it gets people excited, to have a space to share and brainstorm. Through that experience, I thought this kind of golden token of entrepreneurship will be handed over to me at some point by someone senior saying, “Hitomi you told me you can be an entrepreneur on something, you got your task with this”. But it doesn't really work like that in real life. It's more just a bunch of dialogues, isn't it? You say: I'm interested in something and someone else, I want to say something too. Let's just get together and talk about it.
I realized that something extraordinary can just happen out of a discussion or a bunch of discussions. So it's as easy as we want to make it, to start something new.
Catherine: I agree. I'm wondering whether those people who are around you as sponsors, mentors, or perhaps they're just your colleagues, but you are not just talking about it and saying, that's wonderful, but you're taking it a step further. So were the hydrogen interest group and the legal tech initiative ones that you took forward, that you decided that you would take forward? Or was it more of a team effort on that? And don't be humble.
Hitomi: Oh, definitely a team effort on the hydrogen and legal tech initiatives and they're separate initiatives. There's been a lot of work done already by the firm and different people on that. I'd like to think that there are aspects of it that I helped improve, like setting up a website for the hydrogen interest group and getting more people to join our group. I think our group is now over 60 to 70 lawyers globally, which is quite a fair scale given its sort of novel nature. On the legal tech side, it was also very interesting and you may have seen that our previous global managing partner has joined a new law business most recently and it's an area where the firm is focused on.
So we have something called Fuse, which is an incubator for legal tech solutions, based in London, and now expanding its wings to Hong Kong. It was an incubator for all these different ideas on legal tech, which may get funding from A&O and other financiers and it's great because we can discuss ideas with those innovators, which helps us to come up with new ideas. I can't talk about all of the ideas that we're currently working on and nurturing now, but there are a few that practicing lawyers like myself and others have put forward as something that would be helpful, both internally and also externally. So something that we might think is just helpful to have for internal purposes and something that could be eventually marketed and sold to clients as well.
Catherine: Sounds great. I look forward to keeping up with you on that and see what happens. I'm going to jump back to something you said earlier about a support network being fundamental. I think those were your words, and if I think about a support network, I often think of it as you're having your own board of directors, comprising of sponsors and supporters, and mentors. Maybe there are people who help you get salary increases or negotiate salary increases, or maybe take a lateral career jump, or even start your own business. But perhaps, and I think this is true, your Korean woman warrior that you talked about earlier was definitely one of your board members, but how do you go about choosing that group of supporters? I expect too that you have a message for the younger generation of women, about the importance of having a mentor, in particular, I'd love to hear something from you about that.
Advice for Younger Lawyers [54:09]
Hitomi: I really like your idea that it's a board of directors because different directors have different strengths and weaknesses and they bring something different to the table. I think that's what we need, as junior and mid-level lawyers, in terms of our support. It's good to have different mentors, supporters, and sponsors. They're also individuals and they run businesses and are extremely busy people, so it may be that you think they're too busy to help younger people.
But I think a true mentorship is a two-way street and they are also looking for insights and creative solutions from the younger generation. So if we're open to the fact that we need to be helping them, and they could also offer some advice to us, then it's a sort of win-win deal, for the board of directors, and the lawyer being helped. I suppose the message to the younger generation is don't forget to help the ones that are helping you as well. Perhaps the best way to actually go about finding mentors and supporters is to think about how you can help them.
But I also think that it's a great time to be a female lawyer, and even a minority female lawyer because I think compared to when I started my career 10 years ago, there's a lot more support and a lot more infrastructure, like the targeted training that I talked about for women and sales skills. There’s a lot more infrastructure now and I realize that the support towards women, for example, needs to be targeted and you can't just have the same kind of support system for men. Women take maternity leave and come back, and have different interests from men, we don't necessarily play golf or watch football.
Catherine: Well, we might, but we might not.
Hitomi: Yes exactly and that sort of unconscious bias points are out in the open. So I think it's a great time for those considering a career in law and young ones coming up to be in this profession.
Catherine: Oh that's great I'm glad that you feel that way, and I think that the doors are opening and it is expanding and that firms and businesses are knowing now that one size doesn't fit all. I hear what you're saying and the referral to a board of directors or one's own board of directors I cannot take credit for that. I think most recently I heard that from my friend Royanne Doi, she's talked about it for a number of years but I believe someone's written about it but I do love that. As you just pointed out every board director has different expertise. Some are lawyers, some are financiers, all kinds of things. So we all do in finding mentors and sponsors and supporters look for different people who can help us in different ways, and I loved your advice there. So I'm going to switch gears a little bit because I want to know a little bit more about your routine that you have, your bookends for the day. Things that you do when you get up in the morning, how you get a focus for the day. Perhaps it's a little bit different now because you are on maternity leave but when you're working in the office or as you have been away from the actual office, how does that look when you're trying to get yourself set up for the day as a lawyer going into your workday?
Hitomi’s Daily Schedule [58:05]
Hitomi: So I was just trying to think about what I do for sure every day, and I probably have a cup of coffee every day, that's a must on a workday. Before COVID I would cycle to work but since lockdown that's not possible, so I try to do yoga if I have the time in the morning and it's just good to clear out the mind before the day starts. Then I get stuck into a piece of work that needs quite a lot of attention because I'm a morning person, it’s great to get something chunky done in the morning.
Catherine: I agree. So when you come home at night when you were in the office and coming back, what's the kind of thing that you look forward to doing to wrap up your day?
Hitomi: I'm a foodie so I try and have good food, many times just delivered food, but my husband and I just wind down watching Netflix documentaries on street food and Formula One car racing, so that's a proper wind down for me which I look forward to.
Catherine: Do you have a word of the year or some kind of theme that guides you each year. Some of my guests have had these and I'm really interested to know Hitomi if you have something like that?
Hitomi: Yeah I really liked yours, by the way, Catherine, it's all about staying true to yourself I think so that really resonated with me as well. I'm at a pretty special time I suppose being on maternity leave and finding a new identity for myself as a mom, and so I would say something like reloading. Like loading before a nice sophisticated website shows up at the end of the maternity leave. Just sort of soaking up different ideas and reassessing the plan ahead. I love words with re at the beginning.
Catherine: Yeah re something, I love it. Reinvent, reload I mean load and then you can reload again, re-imagine, re-invent all kinds of wonderful words. I love that. Would you have advice then for young lawyers and young law students coming up the ranks maybe something to encourage them?
Hitomi: Young lawyers coming up the ranks, yeah I suppose try some of the tools that I talked about. Just take a personality test or compare or just observe people's personalities and try out adapting communication styles. It also helps from a negotiation perspective as well. The other thing is, and Catherine I think we talked about this at FEW, I was very interested by an interview that Christine Lagarde gave most recently, I think it was for International Women's Day as well, how in her 20 years of career in law and 20 years as a public servant she has never had any female approach her for salary negotiation. I just could not believe that, I mean that's shocking. As she said in that same period lots of men approached her saying the bonus is too small and it's not appropriate for his level of work and so she had lots of men approach her but not women. So that is something to think about especially the ones starting off because we have a whole career of potential salary negotiations to do. My advice on that is definitely don't be afraid and again I think it comes back to the figure point, you know your market value roughly, then you can be more confident going into a room and negotiating salary.
Catherine: Totally and knowing your value also having all of those people that you mentioned, the supporters, the mentors to guide you in some of the ways that you can ask for more and it's perfectly reasonable. It's quite a stark example, that somebody so famous has said that in her group men have asked for salary increases and women, not even one. I think that just blows me away thinking about that statistic, it's quite horrific. Thank you for mentioning that. Is there anything else that you wanted to mention, or that you've already said that you'd like to re-emphasize? Re-emphasize, there we go a re-word for you.
Hitomi: I suppose I talked about quite a lot of different ideas and tools and so on but I suppose the conclusion is the importance of managing a career. I think trying to manage a career and having to plan ahead for the next five years of a career. I didn't do that starting off but if I were to do it again, I'd probably always try and have a five-year plan because people ask about it. Also because change has happened so rapidly these days but bringing about a change ourselves, the kind of change that we want like on diversity, that takes years you know. It’s ironic that we are facing so many changes yet the change that we want to make takes a long time it seems. So we still need to have a plan in this rapidly changing world and we need to keep at it I think. It's important to manage your career and have a plan.
Catherine: Yeah I think you're right It's hard often to think out five years but at least if you have some ideas when somebody asks you what's your plan. What are your one-year interim midterm goals? If you just have nothing to say or oh I haven't figured it out, that sounds extremely vague and never comes across very well. So at least have a few things tucked away that you can pull out when you're trying to describe your goals. Then also, I think you would probably agree with me, is that if you say those goals the people who are listening to you may have a way for you to get to those goals. So it's always good to have them ready to talk to people about.
Hitomi: Yeah definitely, and then I think you would meet people that share the same passion and the same ideas and off you go in that network, it helps to meet great people.
Super Six Quick Fire Questions [1:05:40]
Catherine: Exactly. It can be thinking about the same sort of goals together and helping each other in that way. Well, this has been wonderful. I'm going to finish up Hitomi with the final super six which is the quick-fire round of six questions that I ask every guest to wind up our chat today. So the first one is around cash. We talked about cash but I'm going to give you not literally but just think about the fact that I might be giving you 1 million yen in cash in Japan. Where would you spend it? Your favorite store or destination?
Hitomi: I'm a massive beach bum, so I would probably go to Okinawa in a flash.
Catherine: Okinawa has been a popular answer, I think we might have to plan a guest trip to Okinawa that would be fun.
Hitomi: Yes, that would be amazing.
Catherine: Can you tell me a book that you've read or are reading or podcasts that you're listening to or have listened to that you recommend?
Hitomi: I quite like reading biographies and last year I read Michelle Obama’s Becoming, her story is just amazing, and I’m reading Barack Obama's latest book at the moment just to get both sides of the story. I quite like documentaries on Netflix and the latest one I'm obsessed with is the Formula One Race to Survive documentary. I thought I wouldn’t be into car racing but it's a good one If you like drama.
Catherine: I love that. I think I'm going back to Obama, I think his book is about 800 pages and it's probably twice as thick as Michelle's.
Hitomi: Yeah that's right I'm still working through it.
Catherine: Michelle's you can also get on audiobook and I think it's actually her voice, so I must do that at some point. I've read the book but I'd love to listen to her voice. Thank you for those recommendations. If you were stuck on a desert island and you needed to bring one person, one item, and one kind of food, you're a foodie. I know it's difficult, what and who would they be?
Hitomi: I would bring my husband because he's very resourceful and he tends to get me out of trouble. But then that means the baby is at home and we have to go back.
Catherine: I think your baby is an exception to the rule so she is part of you.
Hitomi: Oh is she, okay.
Hitomi: In that case, I’d gladly go to a desert island with my husband and my baby and just spend time on the beach. I’d probably bring pasta stuff as it’s my favorite food.
Catherine: Pasta, of course. That sounds great. All right the next question is if there was a famous person or celebrity that you would love to meet or have already met?
Hitomi: Pre COVID I was actually working out at this gym near my office and I used to work out next to this famous Japanese singer from a boy band from the nineties. A boy band called Lunacy, so he was working out next to me and I was not in a state to go and talk to a celebrity. So I was too embarrassed to go up to him, but then he was very sociable and he was talking to everyone in the gym including myself. That was fun. I also went to a Jay Z concert in Japan, where you’re not allowed to go on people's shoulders, but I didn't know about this as a girl coming back to Japan and I was on my friend's shoulder and Jay Z called out to me because I was the only girl he could see in the crowd standing on someone's shoulder. So that was quite fun too.
Catherine: That's very cool. Well done. So what's on your bedside cabinet? Am I presuming that it's that big book of Obama's?
Hitomi: I wish. My baby has just taken over every available space in my house. And so I've got diapers on my bedside table and clean ones if I'm lucky.
Catherine: What place would you like to visit post-pandemic when we can all fly again?
Hitomi: Yeah, I love traveling. I would love to go back to Latin America. I’ve just been to one place in Columbia called Cartagena, which was very pretty, and I would love to go and explore this continent.
Catherine: Wonderful. I haven't been there. I think I'll have to put that on my list as well.
Hitomi: Yeah, it's beautiful. I really recommend it.
Catherine: Thank you so much. And really, Hitomi, thank you so much for sharing your story and your tips and nuggets of advice. It's been really great to connect with you one-to-one in this way and amongst others who are listening, and so I really thank you.
Hitomi: It's been very much fun talking to you, Catherine, and thank you so much for inviting me.
Catherine: How can people connect with you? Can we do that on LinkedIn or other social media?
Hitomi: Yeah. So I think I’m on LinkedIn and I also have a profile on the A&O website, and I've also got Instagram so people can feel free to reach me on all of those.
Catherine: Great. Are you posting food shots on Instagram as well?
Hitomi: Oh yeah. All the time.
Catherine: I will sign up. It's really fantastic. We'll put all of that in the show notes, so anyone who's interested in connecting and learning more from you, they're more than welcome to reach out to you. Is that right?
Hitomi: Yes, of course.
Catherine: Great. Thank you. Thank you so much. I'd like to finish here, we've had a fantastic conversation about so many different things, and I'm really grateful to you for coming along and being my fourth guest on what is hopefully a 10 guest season of Lawyer On Air in its first season. I want to thank you for your honesty and being someone who really is a rising star in the legal profession and the Japan community, a real beacon of inspiration, I'm sure everyone would agree, for lawyers of all ages and genders. So thank you for sharing your journey, inspiring me, and I hope it's been inspiring for all of my listeners. For the listeners, please do “ Like” this episode and subscribe to Lawyer On Air and go ahead and share this episode with someone you think will enjoy listening to it and be inspired to live a wonderful lawyer lady life. So that's all for now. I look forward to seeing you all on the next episode. Cheers. Kampai and bye for now.
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