Episode Five: How to build a truly international career in the law
Full transcript follows.
My guest today has really carved a niche for herself and a career in the area of compliance and regulatory. Her career is fascinating. It is inspirational to hear how so much can actually happen in your career as a lawyer. You don't have to do just one single thing. There are many ways to lead your life as a lawyer, and the world really is your oyster. Listen and find out how Robyn aced it.
If you enjoyed this episode and it inspired you in some way, we’d love to hear about it and know your biggest takeaway. Take a screenshot of yourself listening to the episode on your device, post it to your Instagram Stories, and tag me @lawyeronair or find me on LinkedIn or Twitter.
Or leave us a message here!
In this episode you’ll hear:
How Robyn came to be one of the few Japanese speaking lawyers in Australia in the 80s
How her first demanding role in Japan became an asset for the rest of her career
Robyn’s ideas about mentorship and how her career has benefited from it
What compliance really is and how it helps organisations, and litigation lawyers!
What Robyn does when she is not being a lawyer
The best advice she ever received
Her sage advice for young lawyers
What the future of law might look like
Her favourite podcast and other fun facts
About Robyn
Robyn is originally from Australia but has lived in Tokyo for the past 20 years working with international law firms and financial institutions. She started her career in the area of cross-border securities offerings but in recent years has focused on FINTECH regulation. She is married and has two grown children and one dog.
Connect with Robyn
If you would like to contact Robyn, please connect with Catherine to be introduced.
Links
Cicada in Minami Aoyama https://www.tysons.jp/cicada/
Casefiles Podcast: https://casefilepodcast.com/
Conning the Con Podcast: https://shows.acast.com/conningthecon
Connect with Catherine
Linked In https://www.linkedin.com/in/oconnellcatherine/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lawyeronair
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/catherine.oconnell.148
Twitter: https://twitter.com/oconnelllawyer
Catherine: Hi, everyone. Welcome to this fifth episode of Lawyer On Air, I'm Catherine O'Connell. Today, I am joined by Robyn Nadler, who is a foreign registered lawyer, in Tokyo. Robyn is an amazing lawyer and with her career has traveled to many places. She was born and raised in Australia and qualified in New South Wales in 1988, England and Wales in 1996, and New York in 2003. Robyn has lived in Japan, the past 20 years, working in a variety of international law firms and financial institutions. She started her career in the area of cross-border security offerings. In recent years she's been focusing on FinTech regulations for her clients. She offers her specialist's advice in compliance and regulatory, and she makes sense of the array of financial regulations, such as electronic money payments. I haven't had someone on the show so far who is a master in compliance, and sometimes I think compliance and regulatory work is relegated to the poor cousin of law and not really given the prestige it deserves. I think it's quietly a sexy area of the law to specialize in and if you make your mark, you can carve out a name as a specialist in this field, as Robyn has. Robyn is one of the few in Japan who really has taken on FinTech, regulatory, and compliance and made it her niche, especially in what is to me, a mind-boggling finance and e-money area.
Her experience in secondment to one of the top 10 FinTech payment companies was really significant, I think, giving her a hands-on experience at the coalface. Well, I think we first met when she was on secondment from a large international firm in Tokyo to a Japanese company. I actually interviewed for the role that she was leaving at that time, and I'm fully of the belief that if something is not meant to be, it's not meant to be. Though I did not get that role, it was for the better, because of that experience, I took myself down other paths and had other adventures. From that time, I was really thankful to Robyn for thinking of putting my name forward and really grateful that I could get to know another super lawyer in Tokyo. I might add that Robyn's husband is also an amazing lawyer in Tokyo and he has taken me under his wing in the last several years since I launched my business and I consider him a great mentor and colleague. Robyn is a straight shooter, and what you see is what you get. She's also very kind and always ready to help others. I know that when we talk today, Robyn, we'll get straight to it and not sugarcoat anything. I've just loved witnessing her grow her career and admired her eldership in the community, so I'm super proud to have her as my guest today. Robyn, welcome to the show.
Robyn: Thank you so much, Catherine. I'm delighted to be here at last.
Catherine: That is so wonderful and today, we're going to be talking about your career, how you navigated your career in Japan with international BigLaw, Japan BigLaw, your secondments, and how you've carved out this really nice field in FinTech and compliance, and some of the challenges you may have overcome. I'd love to also talk about the future of law and have you offer up some gems of advice for young lawyers on their career path? How does that sound?
Robyn: That sounds great.
Catherine: Well, today we are talking online. The state of emergency, I think it's the third one, is continuing in Japan, but if we were meeting up in person, Robyn, where would we be? Do you have a favorite wine bar or a restaurant that you love to go to, and what would you be choosing off the menu?
Robyn: Well, I'm going to make a little bit of a plug here because I would like to go to Cicaida, which is one of my favorite restaurants located in Aoyama. I would like to have a glass of Israeli red. I love Israeli and Lebanese wine, I find them very robust, but not quite as robust as the Aussie and the Kiwi ones. Also, my daughter works there.
Catherine: I did not know that that's fabulous. I've been to Cicada so many times recently within the limits and the regulations, but I didn't know she was there.
Robyn: Yes, she works there as a chef in the kitchen.
Catherine: Wow. That's why I go back because the food is so good there. Thank you. I look forward to us going there together, and I haven't tried many Israeli wines, so I do look forward to you introducing me to those at a time in the future. Thank you so much.
Robyn: Yeah, I look forward to that too.
Catherine: Great. So let's go into your career background. You are Australian and you graduated from ANU, the Australian National University. You graduated in Arts and Law, I think around 1988. So tell us about the years before that, actually growing up in Australia and what it was like for you. What did you want to be when you were a child?
Robyn’s Early Years [05:38]
Robyn: Okay. I grew up in Northern New South Wales, a bit South of Byron Bay, which is really a beautiful part of the world, beaches, and rainforest, very undeveloped in those days. My dad was in the beef cattle industry so I was close to people who were farming and literally Cowboys. I loved school, I think I always aspired to be a professional of some kind with an international angle though I couldn't put my finger on exactly what it was. I was very lucky in the times that I grew up in when the Australian government decided to turn to Asia and decided that our future lay in Asia. So that even from elementary school onwards we studied all about Asian cultures. Then in high school, I took Indonesian, and then I had the opportunity to come to Japan as an exchange student. After that, I went back and took the combined degree. I studied Japanese, Japanese History, and Law, and then qualified in Sydney.
Catherine: Wow. Okay. So unlike us in New Zealand, we did not study about Asia or Japan at all in Geography or any other lessons at school, but you had that in Australia. That's really amazing. So that's what led you then to think about Japan and the connection there, between Japan and law. What was there specifically, that brought you through to Japan eventually, was there something that you honed in on, or was it through perhaps studying the history that led you into thinking more about the law?
Robyn: I think it was a couple of things. One is that when you're in high school or even university, one doesn't always know precisely what career to pursue. Law seemed like a good healthy option, but in addition to that, that was a time of really significant Japanese investment into Australia, into the resources and property sectors, much as what's happening now with China. So it seemed like a pretty good opportunity to me to combine those two disciplines as it were.
Catherine: Right. So were you aware of those in your environment? It must've been something that triggered you in terms of being quite open to what you saw in the media or around you because linking those things is probably not a natural thing, I would think. Maybe there was something that also helped you? Were there any other lawyers or people working in those industries or was it affecting your dad and the beef cattle industry? Was there something that triggered that connection?
Robyn: Again, it was just the confluence of circumstances really. I must say that at ANU there were only two of us at that time, 1983 to 88, doing the combined Japanese and Law program. A lot of other people were doing Economics and Asian studies. But the faculty was great, there was a lot of career-oriented activity and I somehow could see that it would come together.
Catherine: I think that's really great. I did Japanese and Law as well, but that was several years later. I think it was because somebody mentioned to me that it would be a good thing to do in combination, and I'd never really thought of it. So I'm really interested to hear that. And ANU is still a very good university and we hear a lot about it. When you graduated you became a solicitor in Sydney and you worked there for about a year before coming to Japan, is that right?
Robyn Starts her Law Career in Sydney [09:32]
Robyn: Yes, that's right? I had the good luck to get a job with a good Sydney firm that had a very strong banking and finance practice that was interested in the Japanese inbound market. I was also lucky to meet a mentor, that I guess we'll talk about later, but who encouraged me to find a way to come on secondment to Japan to try and cement those relationships so I had a great experience there. When I left university, I don't think I really understood what a mortgage was, by the end of it, I did.
Catherine: And they’re the horrible things that hang over us, all of our lives, aren't they,
Robyn: That's right,
Catherine: I was going to ask you what your most vivid memory was from those days in Sydney as a solicitor or a newbie lawyer. But I'm hearing from you that it was this mentor that you met and I would really like to actually ask you about that now so that we don't forget it later. Tell me a bit more, who was this person?
Robyn: This was a gentleman who was the managing partner of the firm at the time, he was quite a legend in the legal community in Sydney. He literally just threw a file at you and said, okay here’s a sale and purchase of a huge retail property in Sydney, go away and do it. First of all, there are tears, but that person would then step in and coach you and help you fix your mistakes. Just having the confidence, but also knowing that in order to really teach people and train people, you have to give them responsibility and that's the only way they will learn. So it's a matter of shaping up quickly, but with support and encouragement and I'm forever grateful for that.
Catherine: Are you still in touch with this man?
Robyn: Yes we are. We're in touch every time he comes to Japan, we catch up.
Catherine: I'd love to meet him next time. Was he significant in having you move to Japan? Did he help you in that way or was it somebody else?
Robyn: Yes he encouraged it, he was the sort of person who was always thinking about opportunities, and not just in terms of dollars and cents, but how to grow people, send them on secondment. So his idea was for me to find a secondment position in Japan, which I did pretty quickly, and I don't want to get ahead of the interview, but lo and behold I did come to Japan. What I discovered was, and perhaps there should have been a bit more thinking about it, but the firm that I came to had nothing at all to do with Australia. It didn't have clients investing in the resources or the real estate sector in Australia. They were purely a securities firm.
Catherine: Right.
Robyn: That firm at the time was an up-and-coming firm, they had no junior Bengoshi. So I had to really fill the breach and work almost like a Bengoshi.
Catherine: Bengoshi being a Japanese lawyer, right
Robyn: Yes so not realizing it at the time that this was a great opportunity for me, but I just had to survive. I turned myself into a securities lawyer, doing overseas bond offerings for Japanese corporates, looking to raise money from the international bond market. In those days the clients of that particular firm were mostly domestic Japanese brokerages. This is a long time ago, so English wasn't necessarily widely spoken. I pretty much spent three years in a pretty demanding environment working in Japanese and without realizing it at the time, this did become an asset for my next steps in my career.
Catherine: That's the word, right? It's the asset thing. You didn't notice it at the time, but it's turned out to be, I mean, probably if you hadn't done that securities law expertise work at that time, you may not have gone down that path, but that's kind of where it solidified itself, right? From what you thought it might've been, a firm that would have Japan and Australian links and it didn't, and here you are thrown into doing something completely different. I'm sure at times you thought you wanted to pack your bag and come back to Australia.
Robyn: Well, there were those times but by that point, I had met my future husband, so I had an incentive to stay in Japan.
Catherine: Well, there we go. That is so good. And so there are multiple benefits of you coming to Japan and doing something different, right?
Robyn: That's right?
Becoming an International Lawyer [14:44]
Catherine: I think at another time you were in another UK firm in Tokyo and also they had you in their New York office. So where did that fit in? Where was that going to the UK firm, and being able to work in New York as well?
Robyn: Sure, without wanting to over-complicate things, my husband is a New Yorker and my long-term goal was to eventually get to New York. In order to do that, I felt that I needed to find a firm that had a New York presence where I could potentially find a position. So I approached the UK firm’s managing partner here in Tokyo and he gave me a job. In those days, you could call someone up and get a job, but interestingly with that I became a UK securities lawyer with a very heavy focus on convertible bond offerings by Japanese corporates and we would represent the underwriters. It was very interesting in the office, at the time, no one else spoke Japanese and in fact, it was actually looked down upon, you're a linguist, not a lawyer. It was literally those days of a completely different mindset where it's now difficult to get a job in Tokyo if you don't speak Japanese.
Catherine: True.
Robyn: That was a fabulous experience and the partner who gave me that job also has become a lifelong mentor who also just threw me in at the deep end. But again, anytime of the night or day, if I called he would be there and he would have a solution or help me out of a difficult spot that I might be in. He is also someone that I've stayed on very good terms with up until the present day. Just to delve into that job a little bit, it was quite tough, pretty intense because the issuers were always doing the offering to raise funds and they had some commitment that they needed the funds for. So it was quite a high pressure job. The part of it that I enjoyed the most was the due diligence of the companies, the issue is that you had to go in and examine every angle of the company and look under the carpet and understand and analyze their financial statements. That was just absolutely fascinating to get a look at some very interesting and quite important Japanese companies, and how they operated. That's the one aspect of the job that I miss today.
Catherine: Right. But is that where the compliance, sort of digging in under that due diligence, was that when the compliance and regulatory seed was sown around those dates when you were with that firm?
Robyn: That's a very good question. Now that you mentioned it, I think perhaps that there is a connection because I would often find it my job to say there's an irregular transaction here. You know, what was this all about? Sometimes that question was not well appreciated, and sometimes it meant that the deal couldn't go ahead because it was an issue and I wasn't popular.
Catherine: We're not popular though. Right? When we have to give the answers that some people do not want to hear about, but if you hadn't found those anomalies the deal could have gone ahead and something tragic could have happened, even worse, correct?
Robyn: Correct. Absolutely, in this day and age and at that time as well, reputation risk is a huge concern for investors so it's something that can't be taken lightly.
Catherine: Right. It sounds like that time at the UK firm, which I think was over quite a number of years, you also did both the UK and New York bars during those times. I don't know how you fitted those in, but you did, and it sounds like that was a really instrumental founding period for you. Then if we can jump, I think you then went to a US international firm, was that while you were still in Japan, or did you come back to Japan, what happened there?
Robyn: Yeah, so the sequence depends on how long we have got on my career?
Catherine: Your career is fascinating. That's why I wanted to hear about this because the thing is Robyn that this is going to be inspirational for others, that so much can actually happen in your career. As a lawyer, you don't have to do one single thing and the world really is your oyster. That's why I'm delighted that you can talk a little bit more about your career.
Robyn: Well, thanks for putting a positive spin on it. I'll just say it's a bit convoluted, but at a certain point, I did feel that I wanted to prioritize work-life balance. My children were small, so I took a role in-house with a US-based Asset Manager here in Tokyo, their Japan operation. It was that opportunity where I got very up close and personal with compliance. I was hired as a lawyer, but I discovered that they were looking to obtain a new license to do a completely new business and that all the compliance infrastructure for that new business needed to be built out. That was really my focus and that's when I learned to enjoy compliance and to see how important it was to the business and business strategy. To really enjoy it and think that this is something that I might want to do more of. Unfortunately, Lehman put a stop to that and I did go then to a US firm where I went back to doing securities transactions, which was great. I enjoy those, but I made a point of trying to keep the compliance angle relevant by working on compliance audits and even internal investigations. There's a huge crossover because the internal investigation is usually around an ethical breach, a compliance breach, so I tried to keep my skills current and relevant in that area as well.
Catherine: Were you putting your hand up to do matters that had a compliance angle to them? Or were you just seeing that in deals that were coming across your table and you added that in from your own initiative? What happened there? How did you get people to know that compliance was really important to be attentioning?
Robyn: Yeah, I made a point of telling the litigators, I just got friendly with them, I made a point of telling them. My mentor from the UK firm who I had joined at the US firm, see how convoluted it is. So we were working together again and he made a point of putting me forward and encouraging the litigators to use me, which they did. I'm not a litigator by any means, but I do know what compliance looks like and I was able to do compliance audits and investigations.
Catherine: Wow. That's really amazing. I love how this mentor is weaving in and out of your life and your career. It's really showing to me how we often follow our mentors.
Robyn: Yeah. It's just luck that you meet those special people in your life and they are your people and you will be their people and you know, not to be second-guessed, and oftentimes those relationships do last lifetimes.
Catherine: It also means to me that it's so important not to burn bridges and to be, you know, a good person with anybody who comes across your path because you never know when they're going to cross your path again. If they look after you or you look after them it’s a two-way street, that something will come to you down the line. I think that's the universe being good to us if we are good to people.
Robyn: I think that's right. A mentoring relationship is a two-way relationship, so my contribution was working damn hard, getting the deals done, and it was a relationship of equals. I would also say that a mature person who's a mentor can overlook bad behavior along the way that might otherwise potentially poison less close relationships. I've walked away from people that were mentors. In fact, I've done it multiple times and still been able to keep that relationship going. I think that's a reminder to us as we mentor others that people make mistakes and we need to be the ones that have the generosity and the compassion not to just kick someone loose because they didn't show us the degree of loyalty that we thought we would do.
Catherine: Mm, I see. Okay. So giving people a second chance.
Robyn: Yeah. I think that's important.
Catherine: Okay, I really liked that. I think there's probably something a lot more we could go into there, but I do think that's right and giving people another go at something and also releasing people if they're not good for you and your network and your immediate ecosystem, I think it's important to release what we don't need and bring in what we do.
I think at some point you also had a couple of secondments to a FinTech payments company in an American multinational investment bank. How do you get a secondment and multiple secondments like that? What are your tips for people who want to think secondment gigs sound like a great thing? How did that come about again? I'm thinking there's a compliance tie in here.
Robyn: Those roles that you're talking about, the FinTech job was actually a full-time job. So I left the law firm. The opportunity came up with a US payments firm in their compliance department and that just ticked all the boxes as far as I was concerned in wanting to get back into a compliance role. So that indeed was a full-time job. I was there for five, six years. I think I've lost track of time. I did have two secondments actually, while I was at the US firm, one was to the pet food company and, you know there's something to be said for every secondment. You've learned something.
Catherine: And you have a pet, so I'm sure it was very beneficial.
Robyn: And if I don't feed her that brand of pet food, I get in trouble with the vet.
Catherine: Well, it was a good brand. Yeah.
Robyn: It is a good brand.
Catherine: So you learned something.
Robyn: I did, but just to see how a real company, struggling in Japan, the struggle between you now, it's usually the US parent and the global platform and how things are done globally with very local regulation and markets and market conventions. Inevitably there's some tension there, and that was part of my job to help try and resolve or bridge that. So that was actually a very interesting role. I also learned when it, albeit dog food, how incredibly demanding Japanese product quality demands are so that the company had a team of full-time vets who would literally take calls that were along the lines of, the kibble is a different color this month, which was just eye opening. I think it's a challenge faced by every consumer products company, foreign or Japanese, in Japan
Catherine: Your typical lawyer would not even know that unless they were in the company and knew that they had a whole team of vets standing by to receive the customer's call. I mean, that's an amazing insight into how Japanese companies have the attention to detail and the dedication to looking after their customers. That's incredible.
Finding that Perfect Role [27:08]
Robyn: Well, it was certainly eye-opening for me. Then I had another secondment to a US bank for a while that was going through some major changes and just needed a little bit of help. It was then the FinTech role that really kind of occupied me for the next five or six years where I was hired into the compliance team. I had the opportunity and good luck to eventually become the head of the department, and really it was everything I was looking for. The whole gamut of compliance work, compliance issues from policies and procedures to training, advice to the business, handling regulatory inspections, new license applications, but above all more than anything else was just making sure the business stayed compliant.
The way to do that, in addition to understanding the regulation is to really understand the company and literally how the operations work. So there might be a practice that's done globally because everyone wants to standardize their processes globally obviously, that's not going to work for Japan, so we have to find the tweak that's going to be the least burdensome to the business and I really enjoyed myself.
Catherine: It sounds like it, I can hear it in your voice, how much you enjoy that work. I remember knowing you at that time and seeing you very joyful and knowing that that was something again, I was seeing you create this compliance niche. Some of us were just vaguely talking about it, but you were really getting into it and doing some seminars, right? The old-style when we would meet up in person. I can remember you doing those things as well and being really involved and being a real poster girl if I can say that, for compliance.
Compliance
Robyn: A lot of people, not just lawyers, have this view of compliance. It's like checking the box, you know, checklists and tick, tick, tick, tick, tick. There is that angle, although I will say that if you can't tick all the boxes, then that's a problem. There's a reason for doing that, but it really is so much more. Like I said, being very close to the strategy, and I mean, we've discussed this Catherine, but I did conclude that within any company, especially a regulated company, the compliance function is the more important as between compliance and law. That's because if you can't negotiate all the terms that you want in a contract or you miss something in a contract that's a problem or a potential problem. If you make a compliance error then you've got the regulators looking at you. In the worst-case scenario, you lose your business, so you lose your license and you can't do business. I think it's because compliance, and this is less so in the US and the UK, probably Australia, compliance has been increasingly professionalised globally. I think that Japan is a little yet to catch up, but I just think it's because there's no overarching view of compliance being a profession as such.
Often in Japan, it's people who were traders previously or in internal audit who just found themselves in compliance. Whereas, in the States, you'd struggle to find a compliance officer who isn't actually a lawyer.
Catherine: Ah, yes, that would be right.
Robyn: Or an accountant.
Catherine: Some of them actually do an additional qualification, I think, in compliance, whereas that's not really in place in Japan, is it?
Robyn: Yeah, that's right. Especially in the area of anti-money laundering, which is a huge topic, a very important area. That's really the focus of regulatory scrutiny. There are professional anti-money laundering qualifications and other qualifications that you can get in the States at least.
Catherine: You're right though, with that point, you've made about compliance being a profession, and lots of lawyers are actually doing that role in other countries, but not so much in Japan. I remember back at one of my previous companies, we did a lot of internal investigations and in order to do the questions to the witnesses, it really needed that talent and that skill that we learn as a lawyer to ask the right questions for those compliance ethics investigations. So I'm really hearing you on that, how compliance really does need the skills of a lawyer to be acting in that role.
Robyn: Yeah. I think it helps, I really do, because as with everything, it's a balancing act. The compliance officers often have continuity of relationships with regulators and how things are done throughout the financial industry in Japan. The lawyers though, I think another value add they have is they will always actually look at the law. So when a question comes up, is this compliant? The lawyer, his instinct will be actually to look at the law, whereas, with the nonlawyers that just won't necessarily be their starting point.
Catherine: So true. Now you're in a big Japanese firm, and I'm just intrigued as to how you let yourself come to be involved in a Japanese firm. By that, I mean, maybe it was a case of you'd done a lot of different things, you'd been on secondments, you'd worked in house, you had been at a UK firm and an international US firm. Was that the one nut you wanted to crack or was it through relationships or how did that happen, that you came over to be in this firm? I think you've been with them for nearly two years now.
Robyn: Yeah, that's right. It was a combination of factors, but for me, it was again related to regulatory practice from the law firm angle and not just one client, which is what you have in house. Potentially multiple clients trying to enter the market and especially foreign companies really struggling to make sense of the local regulations when they were trying to enter the market. That was very interesting to me, but also the extremely high caliber of the Japanese lawyers in the FinTech practice at the firm where I work here.
What Robyn Loves About her Current Role [33:35]
Catherine: Wow. What do you love most about that role?
Robyn: Well it's a pleasure to go to work every day with really smart professionals. Not that it's the first time, but it is a pleasure. It's an opportunity to distill almost everything that I've done in my career to date, in a really focused way that I like to think can make a difference. Potentially a big difference, so that when a company is looking to get a crypto exchange license or a funds transfer license having actually, well at least in the funds transfer space, actually run a compliance department, knowing precisely what the processes need to be for KYC, for example. I can tell them precisely what they need to do within the scope of the regulation so they're not running around shooting in the dark, trying to figure out, oh gosh, what exactly do we need to do, I can tell them. Just to qualify, I'm not qualified to advise on Japanese law, but I worked with my colleagues and I can give those sort of practical insights. This is how you have to do it now.
Catherine: That's a combination of all of that you've done and you've got these brilliant minds that you're working with, but they're also benefiting from you and the practical experience you've had in firms and companies, and that experience is really helping them. So it sounds like a very good marriage.
Robyn: Well, I like to think so they're all really smart people who also are definitely commercially minded. They're not just going to write you a strict black letter of the law advice, they'll try to keep it commercial. I think the combination of me being able to say, well, that's what the regulation says, but what it actually means in operational terms is you need this process and that process done, and actually, you need to do screening against this particular database not that particular data. This is this very practical contribution that I like to think that I can make.
Adapting to a New Way of Working During Covid [35:56]
Catherine: Hmm. And you've been with them for a couple of years coming up and you had to endure a pandemic and still enduring that through that time, has anything changed in the way that you all interact and do your practice as a result of the pandemic? Have there been some challenges that you've overcome and things that I guess if they were challenges and you've overcome them, that you're going to keep them as your new style of working?
Robyn: Luckily Japanese firms are pretty forward-looking and the big firms especially, they're pretty relaxed about working from home. Yeah, nothing's really changed, I was the one that had to adapt because I was the old school thinker of you’ve got to go to the office. I've really enjoyed working from home. I think in some ways I feel more efficient because you can work according to your own rhythms and other things that you need to do. When we have a conference call with a client, I do like to be in the same room as my Japanese colleagues so that we can have chats, and if need be, I can explain things to them, face to face
Catherine: So there's the odd time you are in the office, but mostly working remotely at the moment.
Robyn: Yeah, that's right? I aim to go in one or two days a week and hit the government's 70, 30 target.
Robyn’s Routine and Hobbies [37:20]
Catherine: Yes, we need to oblige and be compliant, shall we say? So I'm really interested then in your routine and how you're talking about sometimes being in the office to be compliant, but the things that you do such as at the beginning of the day, in the morning to get yourself started, what does that look like? Are you keeping regular hours and when do you shut your laptop?
Robyn: Well, to be honest, my laptop's always open and I just work around it. In between that the typical things that I do in the day is we'll have a cigarette first thing in the morning, but usually, it's just an e-cigarette. It's surprising how much work there is with a dog between going to the vets and having the dog trimmed. I go to the gym, I try to work out a lot because I've finally reached that age where it becomes like you really have to do it, you know? So I do work out a lot. I've had this lifelong ambition to learn French and my husband and I are taking French lessons. If anyone tries to tell you French is an easy language, they're lying.
Catherine: You think it's easy.
Robyn: No I'm saying if anyone tells you that, they’re lying, it's hard.
Catherine: Sorry. I misunderstood. Yes, it's a difficult language. I know I tried it at school for two years and was a dismal failure. I remember “Bonjour to le monde” when the teacher came into the room, why is she saying hello to the world? But that was how she greeted the class and I was really no good at French. How long have you been studying?
Robyn: About a year. We go to a little French school over in Ebisu and we love it. I do love it just to have an insight, just to have some visibility, to a completely different culture. It's fascinating having basically spent my entire life, well I did live in the US for a while, but sort of Anglo-Saxon cultures or Asian cultures, just to see a European culture.
Catherine: Have you been to France?
Robyn: Yeah, I have, I absolutely loved it.
Catherine: Me too and I tried to use French, but that didn't go down so well.
Robyn: Oh it’s hard, couldn't they just come up with just one single word for “it”.
Catherine: No. What's the French word for a lawyer?
Robyn: It's avocat or avocate.
Catherine: That's right. It sounds like avocado, but it's not.
Robyn: Yeah.
Catherine: Okay. And how do you say I'm a lawyer in French?
Robyn: Oh no. Now you're testing me, it's “ Je suis un avocat”.
Catherine: Oh, that sounds nice. Wow. That is so good. I love that you've taken up something different. You did Indonesian you said earlier on and Japanese, now French. That's amazing. As well as English of course, that's really great. So your laptop’s on all day and you're working around it and you've got your pet, you've got your lovely dog Sadie and you keep yourself busy now with French. I love that. That's really good. So French is challenging, but it's a way of also relaxing for you and time with your husband.
Robyn: It is. Yes. And I'm glad I insisted that he come along because he makes me practice actually, so we can practice together. Yeah. So it's fun.
What Makes Robyn Nadler So Successful [40:30]
Catherine: Oh great. I was going to say if we were at Cicada and had a couple of your recommended Israeli wines, we'd be talking more philosophically now. So I really want to dig down and ask you about a few other things such as the traits that you have that you're most proud of. I'm thinking resilience might be one of them, but what kinds of things are the successful points of Robyn Nadler?
Robyn: I am resilient. I think probably all of us have to be, that probably almost goes without saying. Something that I feel that I'm able to bring to the table and I think it might just be a matter of experience, Catherine, to be honest, is and I'm sure I couldn't have done this when I was a young lawyer, but getting quickly to the nub of an issue. Because someone will come to you and think they have a problem, or they're not sure if they have a problem or there's confusion around what the problem is. I'm quite adept at honing precisely in on, this is the problem and being the one that has to say it.
Catherine: Is it like attention to detail or is it more you're very focused? What sort of a trait is that? Is that inquisitive or having tenacity? What do you, what's your finger point on that for the kind of trait that is?
Robyn: Well it's not always a likable trait and I'm the first to admit it. I think I have quite a critical mindset in all aspects of life. So I'll be the first to pick out a fault and say, that's not right, or there's a problem there, and just sort of see it. Maybe others see it, but they're too polite to say it. I don't know, but I think with experiences in the workplace, I should also add that I'm pretty critical of myself. So it's not universally something that's used against everyone else, but with experience, you get to say, hold on this is where the risk is. This is the problem.
Catherine: Hmm. Critical mindset and critical of yourself, but how do you encourage yourself? How do you bring out that more positive mindset? I know even if you've got a critical mindset and you're seeing the problems, you're also coming up with solutions. So when you do that with yourself, how do you find the solution to get yourself further forward and encourage yourself?
Robyn: It's a very good question. Honestly I've learnt to be accepting, like it's okay. You can't fix everything, some things I think are just entrenched, they’re part of your DNA. I'm not sure whether to criticize myself for being critical or for the things I'm being critical of. So it's a complete conundrum, but it doesn't really matter in the scheme of things.
Catherine: Not sweating the small stuff.
Robyn: Yeah. Thank you. That's it?
Catherine: Yeah. Not things that really don't make a difference to the outcome. It's all, as you said, it's part of your DNA, but it's actually part of what people need in this world and then some. There are only certain people who can do it, so you've got a speciality in that way. I think there's a positivity to having a critical mindset.
Robyn: I'm not sure. I couldn't say, ask my husband.
Catherine: I will ask Peter sometime. What about a word or a theme to guide you for a year, each year? Do you have something like that? I think, you know, from previous chats I've had that I do, but I'm interested to know if you have something?
Robyn: Well yeah, every year my theme is to lose 10 kilos, but it hasn't happened.
Catherine: Healthy, be healthy as much as possible.
Robyn: Yeah, it hasn't happened yet. I've just kind of narrowed things down a lot and it's getting to the point of a really big, major focus on physical and mental health. If it doesn't support those two things, then I try to actually stay away from it.
Catherine: So I think you're being intentional about health. Yeah. So intention was my word, but I think you, I can hear you saying you're being intentional about how you want to live a healthy life because it's going to make a difference, isn't it in the future. We lawyers, we in any profession, but lawyers, we need to be on our game all the time on the top of our game, and being healthy is really important.
Robyn: Well, it is, and I think we're all getting to that stage in life where we see our parents getting elderly and having health problems. We are aware that some of their problems may be self-inflicted, they didn't take care of themselves, and it's a real shame. So for my sake, my husband’s sake, my kids and my dog, I do want to stay as healthy as possible, for as long as possible.
If You Weren’t a Lawyer, What Would You Be?[45:45]
Catherine: I agree. What if you weren't a lawyer, what would you be? Have you ever considered giving up the law Robyn?
Robyn: Well, given that I didn't really know what being a lawyer was all about or whether I should become one, I didn't have any clear ideas of other options, but I did at some point pass the public service exam for federal civil servants. I was offered a job with the department of the Prime Minister in Cabinet at the time, which is quite an important government department in Australia, very close to the centers of power obviously. I didn't take it because I thought now I'm going to be a lawyer. I think in hindsight if I had taken it, it would have been a very interesting career, but then I'd be a public servant in Canberra and I wouldn't have had the interesting experience that I have had.
Catherine: You wouldn’t have had the frolicking around that you have done so far. Who's a politician you look up to? Is someone like Jacinda Ardern on your radar, or is there somebody else in Australia or elsewhere who you look up to as someone out of the public service at the top of the public service?
Robyn: Top of the public service? That's a hard one, they're all so flawed. I'm a US citizen, I've voted for Joe Biden. I admire him and respect him. I think he's pulling the country together and doing a good job of it, to all the divisions and we'll see. Right now, as of this moment he's at the top of my list.
Catherine: Right. Okay. Very good. What's the wisest thing that someone's ever said to you? Is it somebody who was a lawyer? Is it your husband? Is it some intuition from your doggie? What's the wisest thing and who did it to you?
Robyn: Okay. So it was my father and I think about it a lot. When everyone else is running, walk, and when everyone else is walking, run.
Catherine: Whoa. I have chills. When did he tell you that?
Robyn: Oh, when I was probably about five years old.
Catherine: Really, and you remember?
Robyn: Oh yeah. It was one of those things, everyone in my family, even my husband says it today.
Catherine: How do you use that in your daily life now?
Robyn: Well it could be anything, but I think it's just an idea that you be very careful of the herd and the herd mentality. I guess I would hesitate today to buy any cryptocurrency, for example, thinking of that message.
Catherine: Hmm. There's a little bit of the mining of minerals and things hanging around that currency at the moment, isn't there? There's quite a big topic there. How about the reverse then? The worst piece of advice you've received and sometimes I've found that the worst piece can be something that you turn into a positive, that you don't do what they've said. Can you think of anything that's been not so good advice you've received?
Robyn: I think it's when people say to you, you shouldn't do this, or you shouldn't do that because so-and-so will think badly of you, or it's not appropriate, or it's not done. I think every time someone says something like that, it should be a red flag that it's probably the right time to do it because it means someone is judging you. I mean, there's a time and a place for everything, but I just think you have to go with your own intuition as far as what you do.
Catherine: Right. And so knowing what you know now, would you have done anything differently when you were starting out or would you do what you've done exactly the same, do you think?
Robyn: I think it's more on the personal level. To make it relevant to this discussion, I think areas where it could be relevant for us here in Japan, is when someone says, well this is how you have to behave at a meeting. Meaning, don't say anything, be demure, when in fact that's wrong. If you feel like you have something to say, you should absolutely say it.
Robyn’s Advice for Young Lawyers [49:45]
Catherine: Right. And would that be kind of the advice you'd suggest to younger lawyers or law students coming up the ranks?
Robyn: Yes, I absolutely would. The quickest way to actually sabotage a career is to not speak up because you will be overlooked. The trade off to balance against that is you have to have something of value to say. That requires some work and some study and to think about what to say. There are those lucky, very smart and very vocal people who can just very quickly addlib and everyone sort of bows down before them. I think the working assumption is that you should say something and it would be a very badly informed partner or colleague who would criticize you afterwards. If you do get criticized afterwards, most likely it's because you showed them up and they're not the people you want to be working with anyway. You have to do your homework, you have to be prepared and think before you speak.
Catherine: Yeah. Not to speak for the sake of speaking, but speak with intention, right. When you have something to say, and I always think, don't turn up to a meeting unless you've got to ask a question or make a comment and you should. If you can't do that, then you shouldn't be in the meeting, is one of my philosophies and I still bring that through to webinars or anything I'm in. I will make a comment and I will ask a question, and it's not just for the sake of having people hear my voice. It's because we're at that meeting. Why are we spending our valuable time there without having some inspiration from what the speaker has been saying? We should be having our presence heard by asking a question, making a comment.
Robyn: Agree. Totally agree. Thank you. You said that much more eloquently than I did.
The Future of Law [52:00]
Catherine: No, I was listening so hard to you I almost forgot. I think what you've said has been marvelous. I also think, as we were talking about the law students and the lawyers of the future, what about the law firms of the future and what the profession should be focusing on more from now? I think you've got a really good position there to be able to see into the future. I know you don't have a crystal ball, but what do you think are the challenges and practices now and what lawyers and the business of law should be looking to in the future? I'd love to hear your thoughts on that.
Robyn: I think as with everything else in life it's technology that's driving the changes in law firm practice. Even financial services, traditional financial services are changing with technology. Outsourcing, so many aspects of business life are changing drastically with technology. So it is going to be challenging, especially for older lawyers to get their heads around this and what it means for contracts and regulation.
Catherine: Won’t older lawyers just ask the younger lawyers to help them out? Do you think that they need to do more than that and actually get empowered and start learning?
Robyn: Well, I think there'll be an element of that, but it will be very challenging. Just to give you one example where non fungible tokens, which I won't go into, but it's just code basically, and that code can be sold, potentially distributed, maybe security can be taken over it. Copyright is going to be embedded in these tokens and the assets are going to be sold that way, title to assets. I think, unless you really understand at a very granular level what exactly are these rights? How are they constituted? What does this code even do? I think it's going to be hard to practice law around it without understanding. Not that it can't be understood, but I think in order to do your job as a lawyer, I think you're going to need a good, strong baseline understanding of all this.
Catherine: Is that just with FinTech or do you think that crosses over all aspects of law? That lawyers really need to get together with coding and become friends and hold hands with coding?
Robyn: I don't know that they need to go down to the level of code in, in every case, but it is relevant for cryptocurrency, which is all code. Tokens that I mentioned, just so much are driven now online, online commerce, online solutions, it's really taking up more and more of our economy and our daily lives. I think it's maybe Japan where there's still that very solid, traditional manufacturing base and traditional operating companies, it's different, but it is definitely changing here.
Catherine: Wow. So what do we really need to be doing now in order to be ready for the future?
Robyn: Be close to the trends, study, try to learn. When you hear a word or a concept that you don't know, look it up. There's a lot of the “emperor’s new clothes” too, not everyone actually knows what this is and I include myself in that, but just try to figure it out. You might be the first one or the only one on a team or within your law firm who's done that.
Catherine: Yeah, that sounds like one of my previous guests, she was talking about seeing a gap and seeing around corners and she established a legal tech practice and also a hydrogen practice, and no one had thought about it. Now it's a big thing where she's working, but that's the kind of thing, it's looking to the future. Where do we think there might be places we can play?
Robyn: Yeah, it's hard to say exactly what it is or what it's going to be. I think your point about your other guest, someone who can look around corners, again, not everyone can do that, but keep an eye out for potential opportunities. See what's happening, where no one else is going, make it your own, that's how opportunities arise.
Catherine: Perfect, and not just be comfortable where we are, but continue to advance ourselves in that way.
Robyn: Absolutely.
Catherine: Right. Was there anything today that we haven't covered, that you wanted to talk about Robyn or anything that you've talked about and you'd like to reemphasize.
Robyn: No, Catherine. Thank you so much. This has been so much fun. I've really enjoyed it. Thanks for having me on the show.
The Final Super Six Quick Fire Questions [56:23]
Catherine: So good, but we haven't finished yet because the final super six is coming up and that is the quickfire round of six questions that I have with everybody who is on the show to talk about before we wind up. So the first question is, if I gave you a million yen in Japanese cash, whereabouts in Japan, obviously being compliant with COVID compliance here, a million yen in Japanese cash, where would you go to spend it? So your favorite store or destination or wherever.
Robyn: Yeah. I realized this is a bit of a trick question because I can take it and convert it into US dollars and I would go to Macy's, Macy's in New York.
Catherine: That is brilliant thinking. I hadn't thought of that. That's really super, I would do the same as I just love to go to Macy's. Tell me about a podcast or a book that you read or you're listening to, or you have read and listened to that you recommend.
Robyn: Okay. I love to listen to true crime podcasts and there's a bunch of them. I love mysteries and unsolved crimes. The one that I like is done by an Australian guy, an anonymous host. No one knows who he is, but it's called Case Files and I really like that because it's a mix of Australian cases and US ones.
Catherine: Ooh, I love that. You know what you're going to like Conning the Con. It's got an Australian and New Zealand aspect to it, and I think you would really like it. So do listen to that one. It's very, very good. Frightening, but very good. Okay. So you're stuck on a desert island, Robyn, and I think I know the answer to this, you need to bring one person, one item and one food. What and who are they?
Robyn: Again, it's a tough question. You only give me a choice of one person.
Catherine: I have, but I think we know what's coming.
Robyn: Well, for the sake of answering the question, I'll say it's the dog. I'll take the dog. Only because if I leave, she'll be bereft, so I need to take her with me.
Catherine: Yeah so out of care and concern.
Robyn: Yeah, for her wellbeing, my husband can look after himself. I would take my iPhone because I'm utterly addicted to it, assuming we have wifi service.
Catherine: Of course we do. Yes.
Robyn: Then watermelon, which I love, and it's that time of year.
Catherine: Oh, lovely, and what about a famous person or celebrity who you have met or would like to meet?
Robyn: Yeah, I'd like to meet Elizabeth the First. Queen Elizabeth.
Catherine: Why?
Robyn: Well, she was a very independent strong ruler. People tried to control her and she stepped around them, did her own thing. She was very brave. She was in danger and again, found a way around it. So I'd love to talk to her about all those challenges and how she survived. An interesting, interesting figure.
Catherine: Wow. I love that. What's on your bedside cabinet then, is it a book about Elizabeth the First?
Robyn: I've read many books about her, but on my bedside table is my iPhone watch charger and my iPhone charger because I actually read all my books on my phone. So you could think of it as a huge high stack of books.
Catherine: I am thinking of that. I can see it. I can visualize it. And what about a place that you've visited and would love to go there, post pandemic when we can all fly again?
Robyn: Yeah, honestly, I would just like to go back to Australia, the most beautiful beaches, the nicest part of the world. I would say Port Macquarie in New South Wales, which is close to where I was born and brought up and where my remote ancestor was sent as a convict from England over a hundred years ago.
Catherine: Wow. That sounds amazing. So you’ve been there before many times I’m sure and you go back? I'm going to ask you the bonus question, which is something about you that others don't know or something about you that I don't know?
Robyn: Okay. Well I did mention that my father was in the beef cattle industry, so as a result, I do know how to crack a whip, how to ride a horse, how to herd cattle and how to milk a cow.
Catherine: Oh my goodness. That is amazing. Wow. I love it. Thank you so much, Robyn, for sharing your stories and your tips and nuggets of advice and insights, especially into compliance. You really blew me away there. Thank you so so much.
Robyn: Absolutely my pleasure, Catherine. I really enjoyed it. Thanks so much for having me.
Catherine: I was thinking how the Legal Eagle listener here would be able to connect with you, maybe they could do that through me or via email to me. Would that be a good thing?
Robyn: That would be great. Yeah, sure.
Catherine: Okay, I'll put that in the notes. I'm going to finish up there and I think we've had a fantastic conversation about many different things. I'm so grateful to you for coming on the show. We're now halfway through with you being guest number five in a series of 10 in this first season, I'm aiming for 10 Legal Eagle lawyers. I really want to thank you for your honesty and your frankness. I did say at the top that you would be very frank and not sugarcoat anything and I think you've done exactly that. You're an inspiration to me personally, you really are, and I thank you for sharing your journey. It's been just wonderful listening to you. So for my listeners, please do like this episode and subscribe to Lawyer on Air. Drop us a quick review if you can, that really helps Lawyer on Air be seen by many people and do go ahead and share it with another person who you think would enjoy listening and be inspired to live a wonderful lawyer lady life. So that's all for now. I'll see you in the next episode. Cheers. Kampai and bye for now.
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