Creating a diverse, inclusive and equitable law firm in Tokyo with Matthias Voss
A full transcript follows.
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You may have been listening with envy to the women lawyers from Allen & Overy (A&O) who have been featured on the show so far. Well in this episode we bring you the Managing Partner of the Tokyo A&O office, Matthias Voss. You’ll hear what their hiring process looks like and the motivations that guide the way that the firm is run. It is a must listen for anyone wanting to enter a law firm in Tokyo in the near future.
If you enjoyed this episode and it inspired you in some way, we’d love to hear about it and know your biggest takeaway. Head over to Apple Podcasts to leave a review and we’d love it if you would leave us a message here!
In this episode you’ll hear:
How Matthias came to be Managing Partner of the Tokyo Office
What he looks for when a CV comes across his desk - it’s different to what you might think!
The question that Matthias always asks candidates interviewing for a position
The work in progress on maternity and paternity leave at A&O
What Matthias sees as the future of law in Tokyo and globally
His favourite restaurants and bars in Tokyo and other fun facts
About Matthias
Matthias is the Managing Partner of the Tokyo and Seoul offices of Allen & Overy. Matthias has a strong track record advising international project companies, sponsors and financiers on their investments and their commercial and financial arrangements for a wide range of often complex energy, oil and gas, petrochemical, natural resource/mining, power and infrastructure investments in around the globe. He also frequently assists clients in developing corporate structures and contracting strategies, including bidding, construction and supply and offtake arrangements. He has extensive experience working on complex financings involving multiple ECAs and MLAs. Matthias speaks English, Mandarin, French, German and some Japanese.
Connect with Matthias
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/allenoverymatthiasvoss/
Links
Bunon: http://www.bunon.jp/
Cellar and Grill: https://www.cardenas.co.jp/shop/restaurant/w-aoyama/
Tokyo Whiskey Library: https://tokyo-whisky-library.com/index.html
Connect with Catherine
Linked In https://www.linkedin.com/in/oconnellcatherine/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lawyeronair
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/catherine.oconnell.148
Twitter: https://twitter.com/oconnelllawyer
Transcript
Catherine: Hi, everyone. Welcome to this special episode of Lawyer on Air. I'm the host of the show, Catherine O'Connell. Well, we've had a sparkling array of women lawyer guests in season one, two and three so far. And I really hope that you are enjoying the wisdom woven through those stories that my guests have been telling you.
Women lawyers are my natural audience for the podcast though. In fact, many of my biggest followers and the people who engage with the podcast episodes are people who identify as men, 48% of listeners to this podcast are men. So this has been a real surprise for me. And I'm really thrilled that the voices you hear on Lawyer on Air are reaching the ears of male allies and male champions.
Well, I couldn't really have asked for anything more than impact to go beyond what I envisioned for this podcast. And so now it's really clear to me that it's not only a podcast just for women. It's not a podcast just for women lawyers. It's clear to me that it's very much a draw card for male listeners as well.
So this got me thinking about adding some more diversity, equity and inclusion, and inviting a sprinkling of male special guests onto the show. It's important that we do hear from these male champions and male allies in the legal community. And so today I have asked onto the show a managing partner of a large law firm in Tokyo. A firm that unplanned by myself has turned out to be the employer and past employer of several of the women guests you've heard on the show so far.
So listeners today I’m really pleased to be joined by Matthias Voss, who is the managing partner of the Tokyo and Seoul offices of Allen & Overy. Matthias's practice covers the whole range of energy, natural resources and infrastructure work.
He's got 20 years experience advising Japanese, Korean, Chinese, and other international sponsors, and financeers on their investments and commercial and finance arrangements. He is consistently recognized as an expert in his field. He's ranked by chambers in band one in Japan for projects and energy, band one in Korea for projects and infrastructure, and named as a leading individual by legal 500 Asia Pacific for banking and finance in Japan. And that's across all the international firms.
Mattias also heads A&O’s global hydrogen interest group, which is an internal focus group, bringing together know how across different practices and offices from around A&O’s global network. And by that way, he's connecting over 200 lawyers from more than 30 offices.
Energy transition is an area that Matthias tells me he's got a particular passion about, and he dedicates a significant amount of his time in the firm with these kinds of initiatives to help share insights on energy transition to clients and at industry events and in authoring several thought leadership pieces on the commercial and legal impact of various energy transition developments on business.
Matthias has been with Allen & Overy all his working life as a lawyer, joining them as an associate in 1997. Matthias has been in Japan for over nine years and managing partner in Tokyo for just on five years. Prior to coming to Japan in 2013, he was the managing partner of A&O’s Beijing office, where he built out the China energy practice.
And also having worked in their offices in Shanghai, London in Paris. He's also worked, uh, no, you haven't.
Matthias: I might have you never know.
Catherine: This is what happens. He also leads the team in Tokyo, Seoul and Matthias speaks English, Mandarin, French, German, and some Japanese. And I just know recently that he loves music, mostly classical R and B, and jazz.
And he's confessed to me that he's a total chocolate addict. Ah, yes, we are chocolate kindred spirits. So let's get into it. I'm really, really pleased to bring you Matthias as my special guest today. Matthias, welcome to the show.
Matthias: Catherine, thank you so much for having me. I feel particularly honoured also because it's very rare that a middle aged white male is invited on a show for diversity reasons. So I think that's a first for me. But as you said, I think you've already had some perspectives from some of our female talent in the office over the past podcasts. And I'm very pleased to be here today to maybe add a bit of a white male perspective on the whole thing.
Catherine: Fantastic. Thank you so much. And it is really quite ironic, isn't it? That that is the diversity factor we're bringing today, but it's very important. And the very first important question I want to ask you is the question I ask all of my women lawyer guests, and that is if we are meeting up in person as we actually did by coincidence the other day when we met each other in the supermarket.
But this time, if we were going out after work, where would we go? A favourite wine bar or restaurant or cafe that you like to go to. And what would you choose from the menu?
Matthias: I think that's almost a bit of a sad story. If you'd asked me the same question about a year ago, it would've been very easy. I would've said Helmsdale, which is a nice little whiskey bar on Niseki Dori. Unfortunately, Helmsdale, despite its long history, did not survive the COVID crisis, so that's no longer there.
But a nice single malt whiskey I think would've helped with the conversation no doubt. But I do like my wine as well, as those who know me know quite well. So I think these days, maybe I would suggest a place called Bunon, which is a slightly eclectic Japanese restaurant near Nishi Azabu crossing. It combines Japanese food and traditional Japanese architecture and setting with a fairly interesting sort of modern French wine selection.
Or possibly if we go for more traditional French red wines, which I think is where I tend to lean, there is also the Cellar Grill on Aoyama Dori. So plenty of choice in Tokyo.
Catherine: Very nice, Bunon? Okay. You just said Nishi Azabu crossing. So that is very close to me. And I've lived here a little while and I still don't know that place. So I really would love to meet up with you there soon, cuz I don’t know where it is.
Matthias: Absolutely. I'm very happy to introduce you.
Catherine: That would be fun. Wow. I mean, goodness, you've been in Tokyo market for a long, long time.
What brought you here Matthias? What was the reason you came to Tokyo and why have you stayed here?
Matthias: This could be a very long story potentially, but this is not my first time in Japan. But it's probably worth going back a little bit further. I never actually really planned on being a lawyer, which is full and frank disclosure, not what I told Allen & Overy when I interviewed with them. But the reality is I did my undergraduate studies in Chinese signology, which in those days, and in Germany where I did that, included an element of Japanese studies as well. I then spent a few years living and working in Taiwan as part of my postgraduate studies. But the introduction to law and the real introduction to Japan actually came through a very close Japanese friend who I met during my postgraduate studies in the UK.
And as a result of that, just to keep it reasonably brief, I had the opportunity to spend one year as a kenkyuin, as a research fellow at the University of Tokyo, at the faculty of law doing research into sociology of law back in 94/95. So that was a very interesting time.
I also visited the Tokyo office in those days, Allen & Overy Tokyo office, which was a very different operation from what it is now, but maybe we can come back to that. I then joined Allen & Overy in earnest in London and spent time as you've mentioned in Paris, Shanghai, Beijing, partly on the back of my Chinese background, spent 10 years in mainland China before the opportunity arose in 2013, finally, to come back to Japan.
It may be worth just mentioning to close this off, I think one of the reasons why I did go into law was really that firms like Allen & Overy and the range of international offices and the ability to move between these offices and experience different countries was for me, really one of the major attractions of going into law in the first place.
Catherine: Mm, that's interesting. Isn't it? That you can stay with a firm, but move around different countries. And it almost feels like you're doing a completely different practice or having different experiences. That's actually very worthy to say.
And so what has changed in the Tokyo market and in the practice? You mentioned a little bit there. What's developed and matured over the years or changed according to your experience?
Matthias: Well, I think going back to my first experience in the early and mid 1990s, Japan has become much more international and global minded. That's the ease in which foreigners can operate here. I think it's the business and the way in which business is conducted.
So I think Japan actually has come a long, long way as you would imagine of a country that's the third biggest economy in the world and hosting some of the most active players globally. So I think from my perspective, what has changed is that I think law firms like us, we used to have a small office in Jimbocho on top of a bookshop. Now we obviously have a much wider and much more varied offering and operation here in Tokyo.
And that really reflects also how Japan has changed. It reflects the massive flow of outbound investments that are going from Japan into the rest of the world. And in many cases into jurisdictions where we have offices, where we therefore also have plenty of opportunities and synergies. I mean, a good example here is the US, for instance, where I believe Japan is probably year on year, one of the largest, if not the largest FDI investors.
And it's a huge development area for us. We've been building up our US practice over the last few years as you've seen, we've just opened our fifth office there. So Japan is just a fantastic place for lawyers like me and others, just to connect Japan and Japanese clients with the rest of the world and the network.
Catherine: Tell me more about that. Why is it really great for lawyers to come to Tokyo and work here? What is it about the Tokyo market? Is it those particular deals that they can have access to? Or is there something more going on there?
Matthias: There's a number of factors really. And I think everybody will have their own reasons. In the Tokyo office, we have a pool of lawyers who are here long term. And then I think like most international firms, we tend to have a bit of a roster of people from other offices coming for anything between six months and two years, maybe just to spend some time in Tokyo, build the connections, have some experience.
The reality is that a lot of these people never want to go back. So actually the second category of lawyers really adds to the first one over time. And you have a lot of people in our office who've been in Japan almost forever. I think I've been here for nine years and I'm probably one of the recent arrivals in many ways.
What's keeping people here, I think, is really a number of things. It's the quality of work. I think some of the highest profile transactions in the world across different practice groups and areas involve Japanese clients and have strong Japanese connections. You've already mentioned from my perspective also energy transition decarbonization is something that's really changing the world at the moment. Everywhere in Japan, due to its peculiar energy security situation, is very, very heavily affected by this. So again, there's a natural fit. I think for people who are interested in this, to try and work closely with Japanese clients, to find the solutions and to find ways forward.
But there's also from my perspective, and that's just personally, I think one thing I love about Japan, that this is a country that respects lawyers and actually Japanese clients are very considerate in their dealings with lawyers, which is not a universal truth or given fact across the globe.
Catherine: Well, thank you for saying that. That is just so true. I'd thought about that in different ways. But in fact it is true. And a lot of people ask me, what is it like in Japan as a woman lawyer? Are you subjected to bringing the tea to the meeting rooms and have to do those kinds of jobs?
And I said, and I do say to people, no, that's never happened to me. People have respected the legal qualification I have and have never treated me in that way. And so I'm really glad you called that out because Japan does respect lawyers. and I think we need a little bit more of that in this universe.
Thank you for that. That's really amazing. I think, as a managing partner, you must be looking at doing all of the hiring or helping the HR team hiring attorneys, male and female. For example, what stands out for you Mattias, when you're looking at a CV or looking at a person and trying to see them as a fit for this office, knowing that they're probably not going to go back to another country, they want to stay in Tokyo?
What's your long term view on people when you're hiring them?
Matthias: It's definitely a long term view. And I think that's not just in the Tokyo office. In all the offices that I've ever worked in, the view was always that recruitment was done with the view to finding the talent that we thought would make it all the way to partnership, potentially. Not everybody has to, but I think that there is a much more long term vision. We're not looking for worker bees. I think we're looking for genuine team members and I can add a bit more colour on that. Sort of as we discussed, but what am I looking out for? I think the starting point is when receiving CVs in an office like Tokyo, I think it's a bit easier than say in the much larger offices, like London or New York.
Obviously, CVs come into HR, but they also come directly to the lawyers. So I think the lawyers probably get much more involved in just looking at all CVs that are coming in than they would do in the mainstream offices. Which means that maybe, and I think you've discussed that with some of our star talent on the previous podcasts, one of the challenges is always to get through the initial HR vetting process to just have your CV considered in the first place.
We can be relatively flexible and look at things and look at what people bring to the table. One thing I look for, and that's the CV and it's also the way in which the CV is being sent, is actually that the CV should be focused and it should have some level of recognition of what we do.
You'd be surprised, or maybe not, you may have the same thing. The number of applications that come through that are just a standard CV with a standard cover mail that is being sent. That for me is a very bad starting point because our candidates have choices, but so do we. I think also in interviews, I look for candidates who've done their homework, who know what we're doing, and who tailor their approach to that.
Catherine: Yes, that's so good. No cookie cutter approach. Right? We all know that people want to get a role very quickly, but not being attentive to who they want to spend their working life with, most of their living day with, it really is important that they're doing that research and getting things right. It's like looking for a marriage partner, isn't it? You don't just go in there with the same approach to everybody. It's critical.
You mentioned there about staying with the firm, and long term. Why is that kind of experience really good to see and to develop within the firm compared to people who may have gone to different law offices and think that's a great idea to have different experiences in different firms.
Sticking with the one and only thing that you know, the one same firm, why is that really important, and good for the business and good for lawyers for their careers?
Matthias: I would probably be a bit less dogmatic. I think there are different reasons why people might move. I agree with one of your previous interviews who said, it shouldn't be about the money in the short run. And I fully agree with this because firms like Allen & Overy are, and there's no denying it, they're high performance cultures. So you work very hard.
But at the same time also, I think there's a very important side as to, I want to like the people I work with, I want to like the culture, I want to feel that I actually want to stay and work here. And that's for me, that's one of the reasons why I've been with A&O for all these years.
It's not for want of alternatives, but I've always been very privileged and very lucky to work with people who genuinely care, who have a real team and collaborative spirit, and who pull together in a way that actually makes it fun being in the office, even when the hours sometimes are longer. From my perspective there is, and everybody looks at this differently, I think I look at every CV fresh, so people may have had good reasons for moving around and that often might make sense and may actually also be right for us in terms of background. What I really look for in people is a sense of curiosity.
It's an open mindedness and flexibility because we live in a fast changing world. And I really look for people who are willing to adapt, who are willing to listen, who are willing to change, and that's important for the team. And it is also important for client connections.
Catherine: Mm, those are really, really important points. And you've just said nothing to do with how good they are as a lawyer, you've said nothing about what their grades are. You're talking about so-called soft skills, which I think are very hardwired skills actually, team and collaborative spirit, curiosity, open-mindedness, willing to adapt, willing to listen. How do you find those when you're talking with people? Is it the way you're asking questions to them? Are you finding out how they've behaved in previous situations? How do you find that they're gonna be somebody who has that team collective spirit and those assets you were just talking about?
Matthias: I think everybody has their own approach, but I think the personal interviews are actually more important than the CV. I wouldn't totally underestimate and deny that we also look at greater academic qualifications and track record generally. I think that's a given in some ways, although I would like to emphasise as somebody who hasn't gone through the typical top UK universities or Ivy League universities in the US, it's not about that. I think it's more giving a good impression of people's quality of thinking. And of their enthusiasm for what they're doing. So it's not linked to particular institutions.
But I think the way that we look at people, we are a very closely knit team. So whenever we interview, it's never a single interview. I think it will be interviews in batches, which can be very painful for candidates. But one of the things that we are really looking for is, that whoever is the candidate fits in well with the existing team. And you can only do that if you have actually people at different levels of seniority interviewing the candidates in question.
Catherine: Good. And would that also include people who are maybe one or two years in, sort of fresh into the firm?
Matthias: Absolutely, yes.
Catherine: Oh, that's very interesting. Because normally it's around, not normally that's my bias there, but in my experience, it has been senior people within the firm and perhaps people from other practice groups, but not really anybody who's a little less experienced or is more junior in the practice.
So I think that's actually quite a fascinating way to approach.
Matthias: And it depends a bit on who you interview. So I suspect we wouldn't have a second year associate interviewing a lateral partner candidate, but I think we do tend to have interviews matching at the equivalent level of the person who may or may not join us, because they will need to work together.
So I think there's a generational aspect. There are different cultural backgrounds. I think you can never have much information on views on these things.
Catherine: Before we talked today, I know we talked previously about you, you mentioned people were, you liked that they were different, but not too exotic. And you sort of mentioned building that personal rapport with them, but is there something more on that, being different, but not too different aspect that you would like to talk about?
Matthias: I think there are a few aspects to that. One is, and it's something that I've encountered here more than anywhere else, that there is a general perception that's saying, oh yes. A&O is a UK law firm. Which, in some ways, is true in a sense that our biggest office is in London. In other ways, it's probably less true in the sense that in this office we have, and it's a relatively small office of course, but we have at present 13 nationalities represented with over 11 languages being spoken.
If you go back about 18 months, we probably had about 19 or 20 nationalities here. And the interesting thing is, I don't think, I can't say for sure, but I don't think we actually have a single Brit in the office amongst the lawyers. So we are an incredibly diverse group of people here in all senses of the word and to me that's quite important. I think it's a little bit like putting together a football team. You don't want all people playing the same position. That would be a disaster. You need different people who compliment each other, who inspire each other, and who can do the same thing with clients.
Now the aspect that we spoke about the other day about, I think what I was thinking about is more there's sometimes these days, both in education, but also in hiring, a tendency to look for clones.
Catherine: Mm, what does that mean?
Matthias: In a sense that people are coached to have particular things on their CV, to say the same things in interviews. You have people who are being driven to go and all study the same subjects, do the same extracurricular activities, show leadership qualities and so on. And I think all of this is important, but I think what I'm looking for, and I think that that's part of why our team works well, we want real people. People who have a life out of the office, who have passions, who have interests, who don't always talk about law. I remember we had a recent interview where we asked, and this is a warning to anybody who ever interviews, there will always be a question from me saying, who are you when you're not in the office?
What do you do?
Catherine: Ooh, right?
Matthias: What excites you? And somebody said I love reading law reports. Now that may have been the case. But I think that's not necessarily the best answer. And I generally expect that that probably wasn't true either.
Catherine: Maybe it was bedtime reading, so they fell asleep. I'm not sure, but that's very interesting. It's almost like saying the answer that they think you want to hear, but actually you want to hear that they really like spending time with their family, or they really like getting together with their friends, or they like participating with some people they haven't seen for a while at one of the chamber of commerce events, or you know, they just like doing knitting and creating scarves for their friends or something.
Matthias: In the office, we have everything from people who love cooking to people who run marathons in their spare time or even ultra marathons. I think it's the variety that makes it interesting.
Catherine: For sure. And I mean, that leads me really nicely into the aspects that my previous guests and your employees have talked about, which was about the DEI initiatives. The fact that you've got this brilliant work policy or paternity leave policy. And those are matters they've talked about a lot without any prompting from me. They've come out with this.
And I think it's a really important point about the office that you have here, and that you bring this little bit of a different way to approach the way that you treat and look after your staff. Tell us more about those policies that you have in place and why it matters to you that you've got something different that looks after people in their lives, as well as their careers in law?
Matthias: Absolutely. And I know you've had a number of our female star lawyers on previous sessions. I think the reality is, and I may be too honest here, but I think policies keep evolving because we all learn as we go along. So we tend to try and have market leading policies, not necessarily because we think it's a PR tool, but it's also very important.
The world is changing and we have to accommodate people of all backgrounds and give equal chances to people to succeed. So the policies are obviously a very important aspect of this. And we can come back to paternity, which is something that I have fairly strong views on.
The reality is though, and I think Xue described this in a very nice way, once you have the policy, you then actually also need to test whether it works. And we are lucky in a sense that we are a slightly smaller office and therefore can be much more flexible than some of the bigger offices can be. But the process for me has always been over the last few years, actually to take all these policies, to test them, and to sit down with the people who will benefit from these policies or suffer as the case may be, and actually sit down together with them and work through what we can do better, how we can adapt. Because a policy that works somewhere in the UK doesn't necessarily work in the middle east or in Japan, or not in the same way.
So I think Xue has given a very good example that we actually sat down with her and she was very instrumental in helping us rewrite our maternity policy. And actually working out, which is more important than the policy, is trying to find ways how you make this work in practice.
Cuz the policy is really just a starting point.
Catherine: Yes. You're talking about Xue Wang, who was one of our guests. And she was really the one that inspired me to want to speak with you, Matthias, because of this policy.
Do tell me more then about that paternity, because it's a passion of yours, I can very well tell. And also the situation in Japan is that not many men take paternity leave.
And I think you change things up on that.
Matthias: Let's say we have started changing on it. So we have improved the paternity policy. I think from my perspective as a firm and also as an office, we can probably do more. And I think we should do more. Because over all these years, I think one of the things that has become obvious to me is that it's systemic issues that are holding female talent back.
And the systemic issues cannot be resolved just by focusing on the women. And I think that's actually, in some ways, a bit lazy and it also shifts responsibility from men to women. And a good example, people with the best intentions of the world sometimes will ask women who come back from maternity leave, what do you want to do going forward?
That's a question that's probably never posed to a man even coming back from paternity leave. And it demonstrates a mindset that I think needs to dramatically change. And Japan is probably not a leader when it comes to paternity leave and so on.
But I think if we're entirely honest, I think there are many parts of the world that are struggling with this. From my perspective, at the moment the burden of making family life and work life work in combination almost always falls onto the woman in the relationship. And I think that's where I think we need to do more, just to encourage fathers to take leave, to allow women who have careers to go back and do exactly as the male colleagues would do.
from my perspective, and I’m maybe not a good example because I'm the wrong generation for this in some ways, but the male population within law firms actually has a role to play. And the male partners and the male associates should be as much role models for women to look at as other women are.
Catherine: Really important. I know one of our previous guests who wasn't from your firm, but she mentioned it was only until her visit to the US, and she saw that US partners and associates were taking paternity leave, that the penny dropped that that was actually possible. And she's now doing a lot of different work amongst that.
It brought her back to Japan to do a little bit of a change there, and that was Naomi Koshi. But it's really interesting that you're saying that it's the male partners and associates also who need to be driving some of that change in taking the leave. So is that what you are encouraging then, is that the males in the firm are taking the leave? And this is across offices, not just Japan, where people are taking paternity leave and then others are seeing that role modelled in the firm?
Matthias: I think that's where I'd like to get to. I would be lying if I said we're quite there. I think these changes take time, but I think that's where we need to get to in Japan and more generally. I was very encouraged also, I'm sitting on our partnership selection committee that assesses partnership cases every year.
It was very refreshing to see, as Xue would've described also, it was important for her and it will be important for other female lawyers that you can take maternity leave, and Xue’s now on her second one. And it's not viewed in any way as something extraordinary, or that is a disadvantage, it's just a natural part of life. And people progressed nonetheless.
And for me, it was very refreshing also in this year's process to have a male candidate in another office who was in many ways, probably the primary carer for two young, twin children whilst his wife, also a lawyer, was pursuing an equally high flying or high calibre legal career.
And that was not in any way a stumbling block for his path to partnership. So I think a big part of this is actually also to persuade male lawyers that you can do this, and it's not going to be held against you.
Catherine: Yeah. I think one thing over the pandemic was that some of the results that we had from sort of informal surveys of males was that they were really enjoying being home and looking after their children and being surrounded by their children, and wondering how they could put that into their work practice when they went back to the office, shall we say?
So I think there's a lot in there and more to be delved into. And perhaps at some time, it'd be really wonderful to speak with that lawyer of yours as well. If he ever does get to a place where we can talk to him, that's really amazing.
Anything else here then Matthias on this diversity and hiring aspects that we've been talking about?
Matthias: I think maybe two points. One is, and this is probably still on the diversity aspect that deals with gender. I think where I started was that policies are important, but actually, I think it's the practicalities to get things right. And I think some of the things that we have introduced, you're probably aware we have a nanny service, an emergency nanny service for instance, that is available.
We also have, and I think that's working quite well. We have a two way maternity coaching process. Interestingly, we haven't got that for paternity at the moment. I think the idea there being that women who go on maternity and the partners that they're working with, or the team that they're working with, actually going through a joint coaching process so that they find the solutions together, which I think has worked very well and has probably been an eye opener more for the male colleagues who were being coached than the women also. But I think it's been a great sort of cooperative process to try and work out how to do things in practice because the policies are good, but it needs to work in practice.
And it's often the small things that are not in the policies that make life difficult or easy.
Catherine: Yes, I think Hitomi and Xue both talked about that and how they were quite fascinated that the coach can open their eyes to various things, but also just the coach was also surprised at things that they were dealing with that they weren't aware of. So this is actually available for both males and females in the coaching program taking paternity or maternity leave.
But you're just saying maybe paternity has still gotta be developed a little bit there.
Matthias: I think paternity has got a longer way to go in all respects.
Catherine: So when it's the coaching of the male person in the program, who is that? Is that the person who is left in the office who needs to cope with the person who's gone on leave or where's that coming through?
Matthias: It's a little bit of that. And also in the case of an associate for instance, it's also to make sure that, we all have good intentions, but it's also become obvious over years that there are ways of thinking and tendencies that we all have grown up with that need to be reflected on and changed.
So it would often be the partner who the female lawyer would report to for instance, just to try and sit together and work through how this actually really works. And also to make sure that everyone's mindset is set towards just finding the practical solutions to make all this work in the best way.
Catherine: Mm. So you mentioned you had two things, is that the practicalities of the gender aspect to get things right? And the couple of examples you gave there with the emergency nanny service and the maternity coaching process.
Matthias: I think the other one was more around the gender balance, is an extremely important one. And we spend a huge amount of effort trying to do this, all the way through people's careers and in the partnership selection process now we have, as you might know, we have ambitious targets, which I don't think we are quite hitting yet. I don't think any law firm really is, but it's important work.
There are other aspects both on the D and the E. And I think for me, social mobility for instance, and just wider diversity is equally important and there's a lot of work to be done.
Overall, I think it's just a general reset of how people think. And I think that's been a big focus for us. I've been working, as you mentioned at the outset, I've been working in Asia for many, many years. And one of the bug bears I had originally is that a lot of our career progression processes, including the final partnership selection interview process, and test processes, were all designed by white, Anglo Saxon males for other white Anglos Saxon males.
And in Asia, and I think Japan falls into this category, you are dealing with very different cultural realities in the sense that as part of Asian culture, there is a lot more differential behaviour amongst lawyers to its people they perceive to be more senior. Just the fact that they may be, and forgive me for saying that I'm German, we are sort of very direct, but they may be less loud and boastful than some of their white male colleagues from other jurisdictions might be.
And those characteristics don't necessarily always fit well into the processes that were designed for career progression that we started off with a few decades ago. So I've spent a lot of time over the years trying to adjust the understanding both in recruitment and career progression that when you put yourself into a position of a lawyer operating in Japan, you have the expectation that person operates perfectly fluent in English, can do all the things that an English or American lawyer would do, but then you have the parallel expectation that the person can also do this in Japanese, equally well, and adapt to Japanese cultural settings and behavioural norms.
So in fact you're doubling the tasks, you're raising the bar considerably higher. And I think getting that recognition built into processes has taken some time, but we've come a long way on that.
Catherine: Oh, I see. So you are recognising that there is that double bar to attain because it's both languages and different cultures. And so you're recognizing that, is what you're saying.
Matthias: That is very much recognised these days.
Catherine: I see. Right. Okay. Oh, I remember the day when I joined Japan when I came here for my first legal role and it was considered then that Japanese was just nice to have.
And my Japanese was pretty good back then, but it was still not really recognised. That's great. That's lovely that you've got that, but yeah, we don't really need that. We need your legal skills. But now I would say, and perhaps you've got the same thing over the last 10, 15 years, that's really swapped and we do really expect, or like to have somebody who might be a lawyer and also be able to converse in Japanese.
Maybe they don't have legal framed Japanese, but being able to converse in a business way with the clients and understand the underlying culture there. Would that be true?
Matthias: I think so. I think that's where the market is moving. I don't think it's necessarily an absolute must and there are roles for dinosaurs like me as well, to play going forward. But I think it certainly helps. And I think that's my impression, not just here also I think across Northeast Asia, that's where markets are moving.
Catherine: Mm. Well, tell us more about the markets and the future of law. How are you seeing in your crystal ball gazing what might be the trends in Tokyo and around the globe? If I can take it that far. But I know you've got your hydrogen practice, but what else are you seeing coming through here with new energy, or new areas of work that might be quite useful for lawyers to be thinking about as they move forward up the ranks?
Matthias: I think the market going forward is going to be quite an interesting one. I think We're coming out of, or hopefully coming out of, two years of COVID slumber. And I think Asia, Northeast Asia, and I think Japan in particular also has in some ways on the business side, been suffering more than other parts of the world from this. I think companies’ activities have been slow because people have not been able to travel.
So the problem is of course now, as we're coming out of that slumber with lots of energy we're facing almost untold uncertainties. We have an unspeakable war in Ukraine. There's probably, or at least there is a spectre of global recession, lurking ahead of us. So it's very difficult to say where the market is going to move.
But from my perspective, whilst these uncertainties are certainly uncomfortable, and they often have unfortunate results for many people, they also tend to create a need for lawyers who are flexible, who can adapt to new circumstances, and who have a platform that they can offer to clients to resolve all the uncertainties, and try and find solutions.
So uncertainty is not necessarily a bad thing for lawyers. I am reasonably optimistic and at least for our operation and I think probably other law firms as well, that there will be plenty of things to do, but I think the world will look different as we go forward. And that's the energy transition, that's the way legal tech has made progress over the last few years in that in-house departments of clients have been adopting very different ways of working, and our ways of working have changed coming out of COVID. There were obviously challenges, but there are also lots of good things.
I think flexible working and remote working and remote communications are far more normal now than they were two years ago. So I think those for the market going forward, I think that the winners will be those who can adapt and can pick the best of everything that's there, but also be very flexible and be there listening to clients, listening to clients' needs, and are in a position to respond to those.
Catherine: Mm, what does that platform mean? A platform to offer clients to solve problems. How do people go about doing that? What's your advice?
Matthias: On a personal level, I think it's just building connections.
And I think after two years of lockdown in some form or other, I think we're all hungry for personal contact and that's clients, that's everyone. So my advice for lawyers would be now just go out and meet people, listen to their stories.
There's a lot to tell, but I think platform when I referred to platform, I think that was partly also just to the fact saying, our clients' problems these days are rarely local. I think there are global problems that need to be tackled. And I think, in terms of platform firms like us, we have 40 offices around the world.
And we have an extremely diverse team to support clients. I think firms like us are actually quite well placed because people need consistent advice. If you have big multinational Japanese companies, they will need advice in many different jurisdictions. And they need it coordinated and they need to have it well thought through.
And they're looking for people who are not just lawyers, but who are actually trusted advisors and who they can share strategic considerations with. So I think firms who can bring all of these things to the equation, and have a pool of enthusiastic lawyers, I think there is a lot of opportunity going forward.
Catherine: Any general advice there too, that you suggest to people who are starting out their careers or perhaps a midway and a little bit floundering as to, you know, I'm doing corporate law, I'm doing M&A, but I want to do something else. Any advice you might provide on how to go about thinking differently about the years that they have ahead of them?
Matthias: I think talk to clients, talk to the people you're working with. Be open minded and flexible. I think that would be my advice because the world is changing rapidly. So what seemed like a good career path may not necessarily be the most promising thing going forward. Build up skills and expertise on the areas that will be on people's minds.
So energy transition is one, legal tech may be another. I think these days, probably people expect lawyers to be much more than just lawyers and to know more about the things that are on clients' minds. I think there's a general piece of advice probably for any lawyer. We're trained to talk and give advice.
I think what lawyers could get much better at, and I see that everywhere, is probably just a simple ability to listen and to reflect on what people are telling you.
Catherine: It's a great thing. I was at an event last night where that was exactly brought up, is that lawyers need to learn how to actually stop and listen and not be thinking about their next question or what they want to say themselves, but be listening to what they're hearing from their clients and people around them.
Matthias: And it's difficult.
Catherine: Yeah, it is difficult, isn't it? Because you do know that you have to get through a certain amount of questions or cover everything before you close off a call or a zoom call or something, but listening is so vital. I really think that's an important piece of advice. And to be actively listening.
Anything else there that you would say as advice that would be really, really important for people to keep in mind? And maybe you could draw on perhaps what is the best piece of advice that you’ve received yourself, Matthias, in your life. And perhaps the worst.
Matthias: I would say the very important aspect going forward is we've all been through a few very, very challenging years, both business wise and personally. But I think personally, I dunno, anyone who hasn't had to fight a whole range of new challenges over the last two years, it's been exhausting.
My key advice going forward is that work is very important and we're all looking forward to working on big and exciting transactions. But life is bigger than that. Find your balance. It's a big focus for us around not just mental health, but it's everything from working practices to what you do outside the office.
How do you maintain a proper division between private life and office life when, in fact, you're online 24 7 at home? So I think it's really important, both for individual lawyers, but also for firms to try and make sure that we get a real balance and that a fun bit of life doesn't get lost.
I think working hard is great, but I think it's gotta be fun as well.
Catherine: Yeah. And working hard at your fun, right? Working hard on fun.
Matthias: So your question for the worst and best advice. I think the worst advice I ever got was in my younger years when people were telling me don't waste time, you need to have a clear vision of your career. And everything you do needs to fit into that vision.
I think very few people in their young years have that, or could possibly even have that. And you just feel trapped afterwards. That goes hand in hand with the best advice, which was from my old granny who was in her eighties at the time.
Which was just really just go and follow your instincts. If you make a mistake, you learn from your mistakes.
Catherine: Oh, I love your granny. It's so true. I mean, I had no idea. Five year plan, 10 year plan, one year plan, even that was something I couldn't accomplish. It just doesn't happen. Does it? This vision of what you are and if you look back and think about careers, or if I look back at mine, I don't see that I could ever have had that as a vision. There's no way.
But I love your granny. Take it with your instincts. That's so amazing. Oh, dear. Okay. Well, we are getting to the close, Matthias, as we are getting towards the end. I did want to ask you what you are actually thinking about personally for 2022.
And it sounds like to me that you are also thinking about this mental health, maintaining that division, having fun ramping that up in your life as well as being focused on your work. But in particular, what would you be thinking about for 2022, the remainder, and maybe there's some inspiration to share with lawyers as they plan out their rest of the year.
Matthias: It goes back to saying, I think we have to be role models, but there's also a very selfish aspect to it. I want to reconnect with all my friends around the world. I want to properly reconnect with all of my clients. I want to talk with them about business, but also about their personal experiences.
One of the things that I think is very important for me as I'm heading up our hydrogen interest group and the whole energy transition, I think it's important to keep promoting this to help clients and also just a general understanding to develop further, in terms of thinking and how things can be implemented.
So I think conferences, clients, thought leadership pieces, all of these are really, really important. But I must also say I'm absolutely determined for the rest of the year to actually have a lot of fun, to drink my wine when appropriate, I will find another whiskey bar. Yes, we don't talk about chocolate, I think that's a slippery slope.
Catherine: There is a cool whiskey bar in Omotesando. It's built like a library. Have you been there?
Matthias: Probably not, it sounds like we really should compare notes on some of these places.
Catherine: We should, it's like a library and all the bottles are laid out like a library. And it's really amazing. I'll give you the information later and anyone else who would like that, but is there anything then that your firm is doing for the rest of the year that you'd like to share with the legal community so that they might be involved?
Matthias: I think we are continuing, especially in terms of client engagement, I think you will see us in a lot of conferences and similar initiatives going forward. I also hope that obviously over the last few years, the galas and things like that have suffered and were online.
So I hope that these activities will come back to life as real people events going forward. But I think we also have internally as a firm, I think we've got a lot of work to do. We've just made up 39 new partners, including our own Taro Nagashima here in Tokyo. We have a good percentage, a better percentage than before, of female talent.
But there's more to do, but I'm really encouraged. We've also made up 57 councils and that ratio looks much better. It's over 50% of those are women. And as you know, we have some leading female talent here in Tokyo. So I think the fall for me, one of the big focuses is actually to bring that talent through to partnership over the next 12 to 80 months.
Catherine: Whoa. Well, we heard it here first. That is amazing. What great statistics there that are really, really encouraging. Thank you so much. Is there anything else then Matthias that we didn't cover today that you'd like to mention or anything we didn't talk about, that you would like to reemphasize?
Matthias: No, I think that was a pretty good summary of where we are in life at the moment. As I said, it would be fascinating maybe, probably not on a podcast, but just to compare notes again in a few months to see how things are actually developing. Because I personally believe these are unprecedented types in many ways, at least in my generation, the world has never gone through a level of change as fundamental as what we're seeing at the moment.
So I'm really quite excited, unsettled, but also excited by what's going to come.
Catherine: Love it. Thank you so much. That's wonderful. Well, thank you Matthias. We have come to the end of this episode with you. I really thank you for giving your time today.
Matthias: No, thank you very much. And as I said, I feel very, very honoured to be included. Even though I don't quite fit the characteristics of your normal podcast partners. But no, it's been absolutely delightful. And thank you very much.
Catherine: Thank you. And you weren't sneaking any chocolate while we were recording, were you?
Matthias: You may well think so. I couldn't possibly comment.
Catherine: All right. Well, I mean, you have indeed shared with us some really inspirational insights to the market here. You know, the importance of DEI, making your workplace truly one that embraces all those stages of people's lives as they move through their careers and telling us that it's about time we all had fun and looked after ourselves.
And I really think that's a very important message for everyone to hear. Thank you so much for sharing all of those nuggets of advice, your granny's advice. Oh, I'm still thinking about it. I wish I could have met her. And so listeners too who are listening in to the podcast, please, do connect with Matthias and how do they do that?
Matthias: I obviously can be contacted by email, but I actually find LinkedIn also quite helpful, I'm quite active on LinkedIn and I can probably be most easily contacted through that.
Catherine: Brilliant. Well, we'll put that in the show notes and make sure that when we send everything out, we've got you well tagged there so that people can reach you. And so again, listeners, please do like this episode, subscribe to Lawyer on Air, and also if you have a chance do drop us a short review, as that really helps Lawyer on Air be seen and heard by more people. You can also actually drop on over to my webpage and leave me a voicemail. I really do love hearing people tell me in their own words what they thought about the guests. Do go ahead, share this episode with another legal eagle in your community and someone who might enjoy listening to it who may not be a lawyer.
Thanks very much everyone. We'll see you again soon. Cheers, kampai and bye for now.
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