From law firm owner to becoming a patent attorney in Japan with Maria Abe
A full transcript follows.
Maria Abe shows us that anything is possible with a little bit of an adventurous heart and a willingness to try new things even when you are unsure. Maria has navigated the challenges of starting her career during the World Financial Crisis of 2009 and takes us on a fascinating journey of how she came to be a practicing lawyer in Japan. A truly inspirational story for anyone who is feeling like the chips are stacked against you just now.
If you enjoyed this episode and it inspired you in some way, we’d love to hear about it and know your biggest takeaway. Head over to Apple Podcasts to leave a review and we’d love it if you would leave us a message here!
In this episode you’ll hear:
What Maria did when she graduated during the world financial crisis and legal jobs were highly contested
How she started her own law firm with zero contacts and only a small amount of experience
What brought her to Japan and how she navigated the job market even though she didn’t have the typical experience that is traditionally sought after
What she likes about working at Vanguard Lawyers Tokyo.
Her favourite book and other fun facts
About Maria
Maria is an associate at Vanguard Lawyers Tokyo, which was named Employment Law Firm of the Year and Boutique Law Firm of the Year in 2022 at the ALB Japan Law Awards this year. Maria focuses on employment law, disputes and investigations, as well as general corporate matters. Maria uses her knowledge and experience to help clients gain a more nuanced understanding of the Japanese legal landscape.
Prior to joining Vanguard, Maria worked at the patent firm, Sakamoto and Partners, gaining experience in the area of patent and trademark law.
Before coming to Japan Maria owned and operated her own law firm in the state of Ohio in the U.S. She was admitted to the Ohio Bar in 2011 and passed the U.S. patent bar in 2016. She recently was also admitted as a registered foreign attorney (Gaikokuho Jimu Bengoshi) under the laws of the State of Ohio in Japan and is a member of the Dai-Ichi Tokyo Bar Association.
Maria received her B.S. in physics from Dickinson College and her J.D. from Ohio Northern University.
Maria speaks English, German, and (some) Japanese. She is also a mother to a one-year-old daughter and a cat mom to a 6-year-old, one-eyed, rescue cat. Maria loves to travel and host house parties where she cooks for her guests.
Connect with Maria
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/maria-abe-6a739321/
Links
Divino:http://divino-cucina.com/
Episode with Akiko Yamakawa: https://www.catherineoconnelllaw.com/podcast/episode-two-akiko-yamakawa
Connect with Catherine
Linked In https://www.linkedin.com/in/oconnellcatherine/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lawyeronair
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/catherine.oconnell.148
Twitter: https://twitter.com/oconnelllawyer
YouTube: https://youtube.com/@lawyeronair
Transcript
Catherine: Hi everyone. Welcome to another episode of the Lawyer on Air Podcast. I'm the host of the show, Catherine O'Connell. Today I'm joined by Maria Abe. Maria is an associate at Vanguard Lawyers Tokyo, which was named Employment Law Firm of the Year and Boutique Law Firm of the Year at the ALB Japan Law Awards in this year 2022.
Maria has been with Vanguard for almost three years, joining them in January, 2020. She focuses on employment law, disputes and investigations, as well as general corporate matters. Maria uses her knowledge and her experience to help clients gain a more nuanced understanding of the Japanese legal landscape.
Prior to joining Vanguard, Maria worked at the patent firm, Sakamoto & Partners, gaining experience in the area of patent and trademark law. Well, it is more common for lawyers to set up as a sole attorney after a period of time getting experience working as an associate or a partner in a larger law firm.
But in Maria's case, she is rather unique because before coming to Japan, she actually owned and operated her own law firm in the state of Ohio in the US and we are gonna go into that today. Maria received her BS in physics from Dickinson College and her JD from Ohio Northern University. Maria was admitted to the Ohio Bar in 2011 and passed the US Patent Bar in 2016.
She recently was also admitted as a registered foreign attorney under the laws of the state of Ohio and Japan, and is a member of the Daiichi Tokyo Bar Association. Just like me. Maria speaks English, German, and some Japanese she says. And she's also a mother to a one-year old daughter and a cat mom to a six year old, one-eyed rescue cat.
How adorable.
Maria loves to travel and host house parties. I'm waiting for the invite, Maria. And she cooks there for guests. Well, that's a short summary of the key aspects of Maria's career track. There's a few other interesting gigs that she's done along the way, which we may delve into as well. I'm so pleased to bring you Maria as my guest today and share her story with you.
Maria, welcome to the show.
Maria: Thank you, Catherine. I'm really excited to be here.
Catherine: Well, today we're gonna be talking about your career path, your very interesting career path, the influences along your way, the work that you did before you came to Japan, your decision about coming to Japan, your work in Tokyo, and I'd really love if you would be able to give some tips along the way to help that next generation of associates coming up behind you and perhaps even lawyers who are thinking of going out on their own to be a solo law firm owner.
How does all that sound?
Maria: Sounds like a plan.
Catherine: All right. Well, we're talking online today, but if we were gonna meet up in person, where would we go? Do you have a favorite wine bar or cafe or restaurant you'd like to go to? And what would you choose off the menu?
Maria: So I think where I would recommend is this Italian restaurant called Divino. It's in the Yotsuya area. The chef is trained in Italy, although he's Japanese, and I usually get the Omakase. So the course menu, which is absolutely divine and it's different every time. So yeah. And then in terms of what I would order to drink off the menu, I tend to be a red wine drinker, so I would probably do a Cabernet Sauvignon, or Merlot or something like that. The wine selection tends to change there as well, so I couldn't give you a specific one, and I would choose based on what's offered that day.
Catherine: Right. Would you actually say to the chef or to the sommelier, Like, omakase, up to you? Just serve it as long as it's red.
Maria: I have done that, yes.
Catherine: Okay. I can see that. That's great. Wow. sounds like a nice place. I've never heard of it. Yotsuya, Italian. Divino, did you say?
Maria: Divino.
Catherine: Great. We'll pop that in the show notes. So before we go back into your career, Maria, I just wanna go back to the early days, and you know from listening to the podcasts, I ask everybody this, Can you remember what you wanted to be when you were a child?
Maria: I actually never had a thing that I wanted to be. I remember growing up and people would ask me that question and I was always frustrated because I was just like, I don't know. Eventually, I started saying a vet because I liked animals, but in all seriousness, that wasn't really part of the plan. It was more, people keep asking me and so I need something to say. So yeah, I really didn't have a plan, which was very different than my parents because my parents both knew pretty early what they wanted to be. So I was stuck with this question, and they constantly asked me, Oh, what do you wanna be?
Catherine: It puts a bit of pressure on people, doesn't it really when you're young? I can remember not being asked that question at all myself, right? What do you wanna be? And the reason I ask is because there's a lot of people who have done something when they're young and it kind of links to what they're doing now.
And it's strange how it can be something when you're young and it formulates into the lawyer that you are now or the post lawyer that you are. And that's why I asked the question. So not to put pressure. But also the vet side of things, isn't that interesting that you are now looking after this rescue kitty cat?
So there's some correlation there, right? With your love of animals?
Maria: I definitely love animals. If I could have more animals, I would. But Tokyo apartment rules tend to be pretty strict, so we just have the one cat right now.
Catherine: All right, so then let's go into your study journey in your early days before we even get to law. But first up, you studied science, right? And you got your BSC in science and it seems like you had an interest in the planets and the solar system really early on. You even were a planetarium assistant and taught as a teaching assistant in astronomy.
Give us the low down on that. That's amazing.
Maria: So, in high school I was trying to avoid taking physics because I had heard physics was super hard. So I ended up taking astronomy, thinking, Oh, okay, this is interesting. And absolutely fell in love with astronomy. Just adored it. And then I was like, Oh wait, this is physics. Yeah, so after I realised that, then my senior year of high school, I chose to take physics and I did that and I enjoyed it as well. Then when I went to college, I actually started college as undecided, so I didn't know what I wanted to study, but I'd loved astronomy before and so I decided to continue to be involved with the astronomy club and the astronomy program, and that led me into the physics department at Dickinson, which the department is just so wonderful.
The people are really close knit, and so it was just a wonderful small community that was very inviting both to men and women. It's small, but my graduating class had 50% women and 50% men, which in physics is really unusual. Yeah, so while I was there, I just kept getting involved more and more with the department.
And also I wanted to earn some money, and running the planetarium and teaching, being a teaching assistant paid, not well, but it paid. When I got the chance to run the planetarium, I started doing that and we would do shows for kids, for the community, for field trips, like schools that came on field trips.
And I also got to design and create planetarium shows as well.
Catherine: Really? That's amazing. Wow.
Maria: The astronomy club at Dickinson put together a couple of shows, and we recorded our own voices and did explanations. And then I had to go in, my friend and I, so my best friend and I, we actually ran the planetarium together and we would go in and you'd have to program the cues and things like that and get the slides ready and set up and do all of those things.
Catherine: Wow, what an amazing opportunity.
Sounds like a lot of fun. Oh my goodness. Then you went and did law later on. I'm just wondering why, but I often get asked the same thing. How can I change from tourism and jumping off bridges on Bungee jumps and then wanting to do law? But it sounds like you've had an exciting time. How interesting. And I love how you had physics in your mind as this sort of ugh kind of subject and then you connected it with the astronomy side of things and it became fun.
How interesting.
Maria: Mm-hmm.
On that note, I would say that, you know, just because people tell you that it's bad or scary, doesn't mean it actually is or is a bad fit for you. So I would recommend being open-minded to things that you think you wouldn't be interested in doing, because you'd be surprised at how much you end up enjoying something that everyone says is scary or may not seem like the normal thing to do.
Catherine: So true, isn't it? I mean, if we defined our own life and things that we wanna do by everybody else, we'd just be the same as others. And we are not. We're the only unique person we are, and our experience is gonna be totally different from others. It doesn't mean their information is wrong, it just means it may not be right for us.
And I love that. It's a great tip at the start to let people know about. So then you are doing all this fun work. It's clear to me why you've been an ace getting onto today's show with knowing how to set up a mic, knowing how to produce something. I'm gonna ask you, would you like to do your own show notes later?
But you know, that's a really great experience to have at a young age and become quite confident, right? Your confidence starts to build here. And I'm seeing a link between that confidence building, running these shows with your friend, and then it linking to you later on where you're like, Yeah, I'm gonna set up my own practice and we'll get there.
And you can tell me if I'm wrong, but I feel there's a building of your confidence there, and then you do actually go and do law after this, right? So where's this connection between science and law? Is there someone or something that helps connect, cause I'm wondering if you wanted to be a patent attorney from the start or what happens there?
This must be very interesting to hear.
Maria: My original goal after college was actually to go get a Ph.D. in astrophysics.
Catherine: Whoa. Okay.
Maria: But during my senior year, I started doing my astro research for my final project, and I loved it, but I realised that I'm not a researcher. I don't mind research itself, but when I was doing my senior research, I realised that I don't like the solo aspect of research and being alone in a room, running a telescope and getting data and then crunching data, and scientific research just did not involve working with a lot of people.
And I liked working with people, and I realised it just wasn't the right path for me. So then I started looking around and trying to figure out, okay, I know I wanna get a professional degree of some kind. I wanna go beyond just the undergraduate level, but how can I use science? Because I absolutely love science, I still do, but also do something where I have a chance to work with people and also get a professional degree..
So I started looking around and we have a family friend. He's passed now, but he was a patent attorney. So I shadowed him for a day and I kind of got a feeling for that and I was like, Hmm, this could suit.
Catherine: So that’s where it happened. That's where it started from with the family friend.
Maria: Yeah, that's where it started from, and so I was like, Okay. How about I go to law school, and then I applied to law school, I got accepted, and I went to law school, and I became a lawyer.
Catherine: Nice. Can I ask you what it was about your family friend, the patent attorney that made you think, ah? What was it that he said that made you think, I can connect them both? Did he say in order to be a lawyer you need a science degree or was science, you could combine it with law like I've done and become a patent attorney?
Do you remember anything?
Maria: No, not really that. It was more just I went and shadowed him for the day and I just watched how the day progressed and I got to see him interact with people. I got to talk to the other attorneys in the firm, see what their day-to-day life was like, and see how they were using science and the law together.
I realised that patent law is a bit like being a translator. You are translating scientific language into legal language and so you need to have a science background so that you can understand the science language and then you need a legal background to understand the legal language.
And so you need to, I view it as a translation type job.
Catherine: Wow. Interesting. I love the way you've described that cuz I think that I've never heard anyone term it that way because it just makes it so much easier to understand the combination there.
Maria: In terms of the patent application process, you know, the inventor comes in and they understand how their invention works. But in order to make sure that it is properly legally protected, you need to term it in the right words. You don't want it to be too narrow and you don't want it to be too broad.
So on the patent drafting side, the patent application side, what you would need to do is you would need to take the inventor's understanding, and the language that he or she uses, which is very scientific, and you have to turn it into legal language that properly describes and protects the invention. But you have to be careful not to make it too broad in terms of the description and not too narrow so that you get the optimal coverage. And so yeah, you're translating scientific language into legal language.
And then on the litigation side, you also have to be accurately presenting what the invention is, both to the court and to the jury and the court, like the judge, depending on the court, may or may not have a strong scientific background, and the jury in many cases will not have a strong scientific background.
So you are translating the scientific expressions for a judge who would understand the legal language, and the jury that may not have a background in either. And so I view it kind of as a translator's job in helping everybody understand what is actually being talked about and what is the core of the invention.
Catherine: That makes total sense. I don’t even know why I haven't thought about it like that for a while. But it obviously sounds like this is the way that you're able to also explain really nicely to your clients. But I sort of, as you were talking, I had this Venn diagram come up of law and science or engineering on the other side, and that bit in the middle is the patent attorney. That's you. Right? The crossover. Very interesting. Wow.
So going back a little bit further then, you started to do your law right? Started to do your JD and then you also started some summer clerking jobs or summer clerking, depending which country you come from. You did that in 2007 and 2008 over your holiday period.
Does that naturally come when you're doing your JD or do you have to go and search out those kinds of summer positions?
Maria: So in my case, that was the family friend.
Catherine: Oh.
Maria: So he took me on in the summers and let me get experience.
Catherine: Eugene, Eugene M. Cummings, PC. He was your patent attorney, family friend?
Maria: Yes.
Catherine: Excellent. Okay. Tell us about that. How was that actually working there then? Because you'd shadowed him for a day and saw the attorney. So he invited you in to do the summer clerking. Wow. Nice.
Maria: So when I did those summer internships, I got to look at office actions from the US Patent Office, draft some responses, get a feel for how to make arguments, to claim the differences between the current inventor's invention, and previous inventions that have already been patented.
I did get to work on helping to draft a patent application. So I got to have some experience of what their day-to-day life was like. Yeah.
Catherine: Great.
Maria: It was a while ago.
Catherine: You got paid for that. Right. That's great. How interesting to get that experience right? Right where you wanted to be, right in the thick of it. And you're getting the experience with a friend of the family who's gonna guide you through. I'm sure he was a pretty tough boss too, but it's just really great you got that experience.
And then I know at another stage there, you had on your LinkedIn profile that you did also office manager work, for somebody. Right? And that was another way of getting inside I think, an office situation perhaps, that was not a law office.
Maria: No, it was medical practice.
Catherine: A medical practice. So you've got another sort of aspect there to your experience where you could see how an office operated from another professional aligned to the law profession.
Right? A medical professional. And you did that for about a year. So was that still while you were doing your JD?
Maria: So the office manager job, and I will admit this right now, I have been very lucky. My family has been very supportive and that is a guiding force in my life. And so the medical practice is actually my mom's, my mom's a doctor.
Catherine: Really? That's so cool.
Maria: So when I graduated from, not college, when I graduated from law school, it was 2009, and that was the worst time to graduate from law school.
Catherine: It was a tough year, wasn't it? Globally, but also coming out of law school. Yeah. Very tough.
Maria: There were not really any legal jobs. Lawyers were being terminated because there wasn't enough work. And so when you would apply for a job, you'd be up against somebody with five years experience, three years experience, and there was no reason to choose somebody who's a new college grad when you could get somebody who's already had some experience and training.
And so it was just a really hard time to find a job. And my mom needed some help at her office, so she asked me to come in and help her out. And so I was the office manager for about a year, but after a year, I was like, Mom…
Catherine: I love you, but…
Maria: I love working with you but…
Catherine: Also did you get to boss your mum around? That's what I wanna know.
Maria: I'm pretty independent and my mom knows it and is understanding. She's also very independent. And we both recognise our strengths and weaknesses, so she knows she's not the best with time management. So I could kind of boss her around and be like, You need to move on to the next appointment.
Catherine: She probably needed that.
Maria: She did and she knew it. So in that regard, maybe I did, but in other ways, obviously I wouldn't, but we worked well together.
Catherine: And you probably saw a different side of your mum too, than the mum who was bringing you up as a child, right? You can see the other work side.
Maria: My mom is pretty much the same no matter what. And she also brought work home with her. So, you know, I mean, even now, she's still working and she works crazy hours. She works about 20 hours a day. I don't know how she does it.
Catherine: She's devoted obviously.
Maria: I can't do that. I physically can't do that.
And so my mom is kind of superwoman. but for example, right now, when I go home to the US and I visit her, if we go out to dinner, I guarantee you that at some point during dinner, a doctor is gonna call her and she's gonna have to interrupt dinner to answer the phone call and deal with it.
And that's just the way life is. And I grew up around that. So work was always part of her life, even when she was on vacation. She's an infectious disease specialist, so you know, the doctors would have to call her and ask her very specialised questions, and in that profession, lives are in the balance.
So you can't just be like, Oh, okay, it's five o'clock, the day's done.
Catherine: Yeah. She's devoted. She's devoted. Yeah.
Maria: Yeah, and she loves being a doctor. But it was also a great learning experience because I got to see how she had a family life and also worked a career into and balanced career and family life, which especially in her generation, was a lot less common.
My mom's 75 now, and so when she went to medical school, women did not go to medical school. Only 15% of her med school class was allowed to be female, so she survived that time period.
Catherine: Wow. What a role model. I mean, you know, as you say, you saw her leave dinners, et cetera, but at the same time you also saw her balancing, and I think that's really important, especially as you say, in that particular era where it wasn't really done. How exciting.
And then, let me guess, is this another family friend, the Bradley or law office, or have we departed from there?
Your next job after you leave your mom's medical practice is to again, Law Clerk and be a legal secretary at a small firm. Bradley law office. So it says on your LinkedIn profile. So you are still looking for your break into the law. You're dealing with all these global things that are happening with the meltdown that we had around that time.
So where's that coming in?
Maria: So after I decided that I was going to stop being my mom's office manager because I wanted to actually get experience as a lawyer, which I was not getting at that point, I decided to move back to Ohio where I went to law school and start a law practice. Not together with my friend, but we were going to share office space and work side by side and kind of rely on each other.
But we had separate law practices, but when I first got out there, I still needed to take the bar exam. So what I did is I acted as her law secretary while I studied for the bar exam and helped her out. So I got some experience watching how things kind of worked while I was studying. And then closer to the exam, I kind of stopped working for her and focused solely on studying. And then eventually I passed the bar exam, yay, and then I opened my own law practice.
Catherine: So that's it, right? You've done this astronomy, you've done law clerking, you've done secretarial work, you've shadowed lawyers, you've been in the patent attorney office, you've been drafting, and here it is culminating in actually then you starting your practice. I think this is amazing. And tell me how you pronounce the name of the law office.
And is that your name in that office name?
Maria: So that was my maiden name. That's Schrautemyer. It's a mouthful.
Catherine: Thank you, Schrautemyer.
Maria: There's a reason I changed my name.
Catherine: Your name is a little bit easier now, but so you started that in 2011.
Maria: Mm-hmm.
Catherine: Which was a pretty dramatic year for Japan with things going on here with the big quake and everything. But you are still in the States, right? And I'm wondering where your energy and love for Japan comes through as well at some point.
But tell us a little bit about setting up your office and how all those other experiences you had and leading up to that were really helpful for you.
Maria: So my friend had already established her practice in Ohio and had office space, and she was renting from another attorney, and then I was legal secretary for her. I got to know the other attorney. I knew they had an extra office in that building. The group got along well together. I had an idea of how things were gonna go.
She helped introduce me to the legal community there. And so before I passed the bar exam, I was already making connections in that legal community, so as soon as I passed the bar exam, I was on the court appointment list, things like that. And I was doing what I like to call door law, whatever comes through the door.
Catherine: What did you call that? Door love?
Maria: Door law.
Catherine: Door law. Ah, sorry. There we go. There's our accents, whatever it is coming into play. Door law.
Maria: Instead of corporate law or patent law.
Catherine: Door law.
Maria: Whatever comes through the door,
Catherine: Wow. Love it. Thank you.
Maria: I was living and working in Lima, Ohio. Lima Ohio is a more rural community. A lot of farmland is surrounding the area. And so it's not a lot of international corporate law. It's a lot more small town law, so building a practice and finding cases is a little bit more difficult, I think.
So you get on the court appointment list that'll help you get some money coming in. You know, you get your name out there, you network, and little by little more people find you word of mouth. So I did a lot of divorce, child custody. I did, you know, workers' comp. I did a lot of different things.
I did some criminal law, mostly juvenile criminal law, not adult criminal law, just because on the court appointments they wanted you to have experience with criminal law before doing adult criminal law because in Ohio they have the death penalty. So I did that kind of work. I did guardian ad litem work, which means that you act as a guardian for somebody in case, for example, in a custody case where the child needs a lawyer independent from the parents to represent the child's best interests.
So I did that kind of work. So, you know, I just kind of did whatever I could to build experience and build a client base because I didn't grow up in this community. I didn't know the people. And so building a practice in an area where you're not already part of the community can be a little bit more difficult.
I did have my friend who did grow up in the community, and she helped introduce me into that community, so I was very grateful for that. Her family who also lived in the town were really supportive, and I wasn't close to home and my family, so it was really nice to have the support of my friend and her family.
And I'm still to this day, grateful for them.
Catherine: That's lovely. We'll have to make sure that they get to listen to this podcast.
Maria: Yeah.
Catherine: And so they can hear you tell them how much you really appreciate them. And I think you've really hit on it too with that friends and family and connections helping you. And also you mentioned the connections, building a network as you're passing the bar, getting on your way to pass the bar.
And that's so important and that really reflects my experience too, Maria, is making sure we have a network around us. Going cold turkey into private practice by yourself is hard, right? I don't think it's impossible, but certainly I would never have done it and you obviously wouldn't have done it unless you had that ability to call on other people's help and strengths to get you through, right?
With introductions and starting as you did in a completely different area doing criminal work, it's not where you wanted to end up, but like me, I did family law work and divorces and all sorts of things like that too. I did look after some people in the criminal court, traffic court, and it gets you really grounded in human nature and what really makes people tick or turns them onto the side of the law that they shouldn't be on.
And so it's really informational and a good experience, isn't it?
Maria: Oh yeah. I mean, you learn human nature very quickly in those types of situations.
Catherine: And what's something about those times on your own in a practice that you didn't expect or that was really making you feel really like an adult? You know, the things that you didn't expect that came about. Can you remember anything like that?
Maria: I remember it being difficult, having to pay the bills and make sure that the money's coming in to pay the bills. But also one of the things that I wish I'd had more of, so my friend, we graduated together, she did have a little more experience than I did because she started practising right after law school, whereas I had that year off.
And we did have the mentor in the office, but his area of law was a little bit different. You know, he focused more on probate and the States, but I remember not having someone to ask questions to with more experience and having to figure out practical aspects of practising law all by myself or with my friend.
I was grateful that she already had a year more experience than I did. But yeah, not having that experienced attorney to ask questions to all of the time was scary. And, you know, I mean, I would try to ask people as best I could, but when you're asking someone for advice, you can only do it so much.
You don't wanna impose too much on them, especially if it's not their job to mentor you. So you have to try and do the legwork and figure out as much as you can by yourself first, and then you have to curate your questions before getting advice from other people in the legal community.
They are donating their time to help advise you. And so I always was very conscientious about that and tried to figure those questions out. My friend, it was nice because I could use her as a sounding board and we would sometimes discuss cases, and that helped too because having a sounding board is also a really helpful thing, and that's one of the advantages of more established larger law firms is you have that built in community and network that you can go to and ask those questions.
And so that's something that I wish I'd had starting out. But at the same time, trial by fire, you know, I learned really quickly because I had to.
Catherine: You had to. Mm.
Maria: I know I made mistakes. It's not the same as being a seasoned attorney, but I think you learn more from your mistakes than you do from getting things right the first time. So that was really helpful. And it also built confidence over time because I knew that I could learn from my mistakes and I knew that I could improve as an attorney.
Catherine: Mm. Yeah. I was going to ask you what the most important things are for someone who wants to work as a solo law firm owner. And I think you've really said it, you know, curating your questions when you're asking for help from other lawyers, having a sounding board there through your friend, learning from your mistakes too.
Is there anything else there that you think is really important as your personality, or characteristics, or strengths to be a solo law firm owner?
Maria: I think you have to network. I mean, we always talk about networking and how important it is, but when you're solo it's really important because you can't rely on anyone else to bring in any business. You have to do it yourself. You have to go find the clients and figure out how to do that, and networking and getting to know people is the best way. Word of mouth is really, really helpful.
Catherine: You are absolutely right on the networking side of things, even for door law, practising that, you can't get people through the door unless you've actually networked with them at the beginning, right? Or somewhere along the line you've talked with them.
It may not be immediately, they come through your door, but they remember you through the networking, so that is fantastic.
Maria: The other thing is to just understand that it takes time to build and establish a law firm. It doesn't happen overnight and the beginning is rough and rocky. And if you wanna establish your own law firm, be prepared for it to not be easy or smooth at the beginning. I would say it probably would take five years to get it nice and healthy and sustainable.
I didn't actually practise that long at my own law firm. I ended up moving to Japan before I hit the five year mark. But things were getting better as I left. I would say a reasonable estimate for getting it to a healthy sustainable point probably is five years, and that's a lot of stress for five years.
And so, yeah, it's not the easiest thing to just pick up and do.
Catherine: And I also loved how you've talked about that and said it really real. And I think you're right. Five years and that's where I'm at having set up my firm and it’s also, that's exactly where it is healthy and sustainable. So I thank you for calling that out. And yes, it takes time. Like anything, Rome was not built in a day.
So those two points, networking and taking a long time to build a law firm. But it is a marathon. It's not a sprint. So those are great points.
So then you talked about coming to Japan and I wanna get there. So you did have a big transition over to Japan, and I know you started first up with the American school, you were involved with them, and then later you joined Sakamoto & Partners, and now you're with the lovely Akiko Yamakawa at Vanguard.
And she was on our episodes early in season one. We love her to bits. Tell us about those times then, how you transitioned over from the States to Japan and those first roles. And then we'll get into your work now that you're doing at Vanguard.
Maria: So I ended up coming to Japan because of my husband. He's Japanese and he was actually sent to the US to work for three years. And while he was in the US we met through online dating and hit it off. About six months after we met and had been dating, his company sent him back to Japan.
And so then we were doing long distance dating and eventually he proposed, but at that point somebody had to move and we made the decision that he had lived in the US. He spoke the language, he knew the culture, but I'd never lived in Japan. The first time I'd been to Japan was to visit him, and that was the trip that he proposed to me.
So I'd never lived in Japan. I wasn't as familiar with the culture. I didn't speak the language at all. I had no intention of going to Japan. Don't get me wrong, I love Japan, but Japan was not on my radar. You mentioned at the beginning that I speak German. Everybody expected me to end up in Germany, not Japan.
So cuz I'm fluent in German, I spoke no Japanese. But, you know, for love, you do some crazy things. But I knew that Japanese culture and the language are a big part of who my husband is. And in the long term we wanted kids and they would be part of who my kids are. So I wanted to learn the culture and the language.
I'm better at learning the culture. I'm slow on the language, much to my husband's frustration. We made the decision that I would move to Japan. And so I closed down my law firm and I picked up and I moved to Japan where I didn't speak the language, I knew hardly anyone, and I had to make a go of it.
Catherine: Wow.
Maria: Which was fine. I tend to be a fairly adaptable person, so I wasn't too worried about the transition. I think other people were, other people in my life were more concerned about the move, though in some cases it was because they were losing a friend or they were worried that I didn't speak the language, so that could be a problem.
But I've always gotten along well with people from other countries. So I knew that there were gonna be challenges, but I was willing to embrace them and learn them. So I was excited to do that. So when I first got to Japan, you know, the legal market here is, especially for someone who doesn't speak Japanese, is international law, big law firm experience, which I didn't have. So that made getting a legal job kind of difficult here. So I started out teaching English, what most people who come from abroad or from English speaking countries and they come to Japan not speaking Japanese, that's what they tend to do when they start out. And that's what I did. I also, back while I was studying, waiting for my bar exam results, cuz it takes about three months to get bar results in the US. And so during that period where I was waiting for my bar exam results and I was not allowed to practise law, and at this point my friend had already hired another legal secretary, so I couldn't go back there and do that. So while I was trying to get through that three month period, one of the things I did is I did substitute teaching to try and make money.
And so I knew that that was an option. And then the American School in Japan, A S I J is not that far from where I live. So I got on the substitute teaching list at A S I J and I started doing substitute teaching there. The fact that I had a science background, a math background, was actually a good thing because it's really hard to find substitute teachers that have a math and science background.
But I was also at the same time teaching English through private lessons. And then I also worked part-time at a small Eikaiwa as well. I just was busy trying to make money in all the different ways I could because I didn't have the legal experience that the Tokyo community usually is looking for. And then from there, I knew I needed to take the patent bar. I'd always wanted to take the patent bar, but because I was busy establishing my law firm back in the US I didn't have time to study for that exam. So that got pushed to the back burner.
And then when I came to Japan, I was like, Okay, well I have some time. So I then started studying for the patent bar. Eventually, I felt that I was at the point where I was comfortable taking it. I signed up to take it. I flew back to the US to take it and I did pass. So I will admit that I didn't pass the first time. I failed by two questions. I was really not happy about that.
I also knew that I wasn't prepared for it, but I'd already signed up for the test and I had my tickets and so I was gonna try and take it and I knew it would be close, but I was just like, I don't think I'm ready for this, but I've got the tickets. I'm already going. It's hard to get back to the US. So I decided to try and take it and I missed it.
And, you know, that was not the easiest thing to deal with, but that's life. You just pick yourself up and try again. And so I went back to Japan and I started studying some more and I made another trip back to the US and that time I did pass the patent bar.
Yeah. So then once I registered that licence and I was officially a patent lawyer, because I had the regular bar as well as the patent bar, I started looking for patent law jobs in Tokyo because I knew that not everybody can be a patent lawyer. You need to have a science background.
Catherine: You do need the science background. Yes.
Maria: Yeah. You need a science background in order to be able to sit for the patent bar. And so I knew that that was gonna be my way of breaking into the legal industry here because that was something I could offer that other people wouldn't necessarily be able to offer. At that point, I also had learned some Japanese and I knew the culture better.
And so I could show that I was willing to stay, I could navigate the culture well, because those are things that people worry about, in the legal community here, can you adapt to the Japanese legal culture and society because it is very different from Western society. So I had at that point developed those advantages as well.
And I started looking for jobs. And once again, I started reaching out to people I knew. In my case, my husband and I were having dinner with some of his previous coworkers, and both he and this other coworker had moved on. Neither of them were at the same job that they'd both been at before, but we were just discussing the fact that I'd passed the patent bar and what I was going to do.
And I said I don't know how to find patent law jobs in Tokyo. Do you know of any place? And he's not even a lawyer, he's just a salary worker. And he said, Well, I know about this one, or well, I have this friend who's in the area, so let me go ask him how he finds jobs. He came back and he told me about this patent board that Japanese patent attorneys use.
And honestly at this point, I don't remember the name of it, so apologies. But, it's all in Japanese and my Japanese is not that great, especially at that point. But my husband was super supportive, he was checking this board every day for job postings. And one day a job posting popped up for a US patent attorney and the whole thing is all in Japanese.
And you know, it's not the normal site for a foreigner trying to find a job in Japan. And so I ended up being like, Okay, I'll apply for it. See how things go. So I applied and I mean, I was up front. I don't speak Japanese fluently, things like that, but they were okay with that. And I got the job and that's how I ended up at Sakamoto & Partners.
Catherine: Unbelievable. Right? You know, a friend, I'll just ask my friend and the friend's friend tells you about this patent job board. How incredible.
Maria: Mm-hmm.
Catherine: That's really amazing. And I sort of think back to when I moved from Tokyo to Osaka for the work with Panasonic, or Matsushita at the time, that job was also on a Japanese language job board, but they wanted someone who was a foreign attorney.
So you had to be, it's sort of almost a way of how did you find that job? You somehow found that through curiosity. Maybe you found it through Japanese knowledge, understanding. Maybe it's a combination of both. And so there you go. I guess for both you and I, just don't close down any options to find work, and look at that magical question you asked over dinner to a friend, who's a friend of a friend, can help you out. So it's just incredible, isn't it? What can happen. Wow.
And I think that's 2017, right? So I'm pretty sure that's about the time I did meet you for the first time.
Maria: So officially, I think I got the job offer late 2016, and then I ended up starting January, 2017.
Catherine: Cool. And then my goodness, after that, you've now transitioned into Vanguard. You're really ensconced there. You love it.
I know the job found you rather than you finding the job. But do tell us how that came about. Did you meet Akiko somewhere or did she advertise? Did they want a patent lawyer in there? What happened?
Maria: So once again, this comes to networking.
Catherine: There you go. Listen everybody, networking, it's very important.
Maria: So I started trying to get more involved in the legal community once I had the patent bar and I was actually working at a law firm. And so I joined the Roppongi Bar Association and I started going to some of their events. And then from there I learned about women in law Japan and I started going to those events as well.
And I met another attorney, Maurice Rabb, he's also interested in legal tech and I was interested in legal tech and so that kind of drew us together, and we talked about those things and we'd remained in touch and he then branched out into recruiting.
And so when Vanguard started looking for someone for the position that I'm in now, well my role has evolved somewhat since I first joined, but when they were looking for a native English speaker who had a law background. You know, he approached me and was like, Oh, I think you might like this opportunity.
And so, you know, he set up the interviews and that's how I learned about Vanguard. And, you know, I get here and Vanguard, you know, they specialise in employment law disputes, corporate law, which is not really patent law. So I know, I know that's a difference. But I've also, if my background hasn't shown that already, I'm always up for a challenge, and I like to see where things take me.
So I was like, Okay, this looks like a good opportunity for me. So I interviewed for the role. I really liked the people from the get go, which was nice. So I interviewed and I got the job, and I started working at Vanguard. And it's just, it's been great working here, it's a great group of people.
I really respect the partners and their background and their knowledge and they're just, they're really amazing.
Catherine: They are. And you know, they have a lot of fun together. And as you're talking with me and we are on camera today actually just for a bit of fun, I know they have a lot of fun. I've seen them, like I saw them right next to me at the next door table at the law awards and they just have fun. It doesn't mean they're not serious.
They are serious too, but they have fun with being serious and they're serious with having their fun. That's what I think. And I love that you are there. They're now at five years. Just recently they passed their five year mark.
Maria: Yeah, we just celebrated our five year anniversary. We had a little party and everybody was, you know, excited that we'd made five years.
Catherine: Very good. And so what would be your top tips then for long term success? You've been there for three years now. Maybe success for people who are listening about being a lawyer and a law firm in Japan.
Maria: Hmm. So, as my experience here has shown, I've been at Japanese firms, not Western firms that have been set up in Japan. At this firm I'm the only foreigner. At my previous firm, I was not the only foreigner, but I was the only Westerner. We did have a Chinese patent attorney and a Korean patent attorney.
So I think the environment can be a little bit different than a traditional Western style firm. Though I think Vanguard has a more Western style approach compared to a traditional Japanese law firm. Akiko is more casual than I think the average Japanese attorney.
And so a little bit more laid back and more Western style in her approach. And I think the other partners are also more, well they spent time at Freshfields before forming this law firm. And so they had this, Freshfields and Sidley Austin, and they had Western influences.
So I think that that makes for a unique environment in that it's a Japanese law firm, but it has a bit more of a Western flavour than I think is typical, especially compared to my previous law firm, Sakamoto & Partners. They were much more traditional, I think. So one of the things I would say for someone in my position is you kind of have to get a sense for what the internal atmosphere of the firm is first, especially if it's different from your cultural upbringing.
Vanguard's been a great fit for me. I love Vanguard. Don't get me wrong. it's a natural fit for me. But I think one tip would be, if you're gonna go into a Japanese firm, make sure you get a feel for their style of how to approach things. At my previous firm, I did notice that as a foreigner, they asked me to make criticism more than they would. They would have critiques about things. But they'd be afraid to say something because of the chain of command. But there was this sense that, oh, well you're not Japanese, so you don't have to follow that model. So, they would be like, Oh, can you make that suggestion?
That did sometimes happen.
Catherine: Kind of leveraging your foreignness in a way, right? And helping and to help them
Maria: Leverage what you have.
Catherine: Leverage what you have. And your foreignness helped that particular more traditional firm to be able to speak up and you could speak up on their behalf. And that's a really great role to have.
Maria: I think adaptability is the most important thing here. When I go into a role, I usually look to see how I can add value to the firm. And I know that because I'm not a Japanese attorney, I'm not in the same position as the Japanese attorneys in terms of billable hours and what I can do, because I can't go to court here.
I can't represent clients in court, but I can still add value in other ways. And so I try to see how I can help the firm. One of the things I'm doing at Vanguard is I'm actually on the IT security committee and helping with formulating the IT policies and helping to find the right balance of cyber security and getting the outside consultants we need and the knowledge and things like that.
That's a need that the firm has and I could help with that. My science background definitely helps with that. Adapt and try and figure out how you can add value to the firm, and not just what the firm can give you, is kind of how I always approached any role that I've taken on.
I always view the employment situation as kind of a symbiotic relationship. I want them to treat me well, but I also feel like I need to treat them well back, you know, and that's how you're gonna have the best balance and how things are gonna work.
Catherine: That's great. And I know that Akiko is also very much into making her firm a platform for people for the future. She talked about that extensively. And so I do love your tips there. You know, having a sense of what the internal atmosphere is going to be like. You already liked the people when you joined and I think that's really important across anything.
You know, looking for a board role, looking for your partner to live your life with, looking for the role that you wanna take for your work. The other thing there, adaptability and how you can add value. That's super, really good advice. You may think you're not gonna be able to add value, but there's certainly ways to be creative in doing that. Well done.
A snapshot of your ordinary day. Are you pretty busy from whoa to go? How do you arrange your day, Maria? Cuz I know you're also a busy mum and you're looking after your kitty cat too. How do you arrange your day? Just briefly.
Maria: So I'm pretty busy. I put an emphasis on making sure I get enough sleep. I learned in college that I can't survive on low levels of sleep. I did four hours a night on weekdays and six hours on weekends in college. And I started getting sick a lot. My immune system took a hit. So that complicates things because there's only so much time in a day.
But I know that I don't function nearly as well if I don't get enough sleep. I try to streamline things so that I can do what I want and still get the sleep I need. And so my morning routine is pretty basic. I'm probably out the door within 20 to 25 minutes from waking up.
Catherine: Whoa. Really? Woo. You're out the door off to the office. So, mostly you're working at the office rather than at home.
Maria: Yeah, I'm working from the office. We work at the office. So, recently since my daughter was born, I was always working a little bit later, a little bit later, a little bit later, and then suddenly it's seven, eight o'clock and by the time I get home, I'm not seeing my daughter and I'm leaving before she wakes up. So I was like, I don't really like the fact that I'm not seeing my daughter.
So I sent an email and said, Hi guys. Yeah, I'm leaving at 5 to 5:30 every day and I will spend time with my daughter and then as soon as she goes to bed I will start working again. And everybody's been really understanding about that. And I'm also really open about why I do things and I kind of explain things in internal emails.
Like, Oh, I'm gonna work from home today cuz I have to take care of my daughter or something like that. I’ve found that Japanese people tend to be more afraid to say what they want and need, for fear of looking like they're not part of the firm culture and the firm community and dedicated to it.
And so I've tried to show that I have a life outside the firm and balance the two. So you know, that other people feel more comfortable working from home if they need to. And the partners encourage that, they're really flexible about things, and I appreciate that. I think that they're very modern and open-minded, and I really love that.
Catherine: That's super good. Right? I mean, to role model that for others. Yeah. To say that and you know, you are back online. It's not as if you didn't actually go back online. You are back online later. That makes sense. Right? And you are also remodelling what your mum used to do by the sounds of it to me. You know, you're sort of putting some boundaries. You're going and doing a blend of your work and your private life.
Maria: In certain types of careers, it's really difficult to just say, Oh, the day ends at five and I'm done. Medicine is one of them. I think the law is another area. You know, there are things that just come up and if you're doing international law, you have to deal with time zone changes and things like that.
And it's something you have to accept if you're gonna do this type of work. I'm not saying you can't have a family and be a lawyer. I think the ideal situation is where you can kind of balance and go back and forth between personal and professional life.
And adaptability again, adaptability on my part, but also adaptability on the firm's part is what will create the future law firms. I mean, I think that’s what's gonna be the ideal situation for law firms in the future, is having that balance between the two.
And you know, I'm lucky that I'm at a firm that respects and promotes that. And it's not the easiest thing to do.
Catherine: Well, it can be hard to find too. So you've found your place and you're enjoying it. How about then, you know, the future of law? You talked about that. What's the future of law generally for you, and what is your dream for your role that you've got now? What would you like to be doing with that amongst the future of law, from your perspective, Maria Abe?
Maria: In terms of where I wanna go in the future, I tend not to make really concrete plans, which I think is maybe unusual for a lawyer. I focus more on building skill sets and see where they take me rather than choosing, Oh, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna do this. Because I've found in my life the things I plan on doing, they kind of go off the rails and I end up doing something completely different. So over time, I've just kind of learned that if I try to force my life down one path, I'm sure I could, but I've also found that there's some amazing, unique opportunities by not having strict goals that I'm working towards.
And so, like I said, instead, I focus on building skill sets that can be leveraged in different ways and then choosing what's right for me at that time.
Catherine: Perfect, and you've talked about your past self. Is there anything you'd like to say to your past self? If you had that opportunity to call up your past self and offer a piece of wisdom, what would that be?
Maria: I look at the one thing that I might tell myself, though I don't think I'd end up in Japan if I had done this, is I might have told myself to choose the best law school that you get into and go there rather than, So I went to Ohio Northern University.
I liked Ohio Northern University. I chose it because I got a scholarship and I didn't want to pay for law school. But it was not the most highly ranked school. And so the challenge was, especially coming to Tokyo where I didn't expect it, and the law school you go to is usually one of the first things people consider.
There was actually another job I applied for, and the only reason I didn't get it is because my law school wasn't good enough. I found this out later.
Catherine: Oh, that's a bit of a bruiser.
Maria: So you know, I mean, I was financially responsible by trying to minimise how much debt I took on, but at the same time, it ended up being a bit of a handicap down the road because it made finding certain opportunities more difficult, which is where the networking came in. So I've been lucky in that regard.
So maybe not my past self because I'm okay with where I am, but for other people, you know, people considering going to law school, I hate to say it, but choose the school that has the best ranking because unfortunately some places still put a lot of stock in that. It means they may have more opportunities to choose from. But at the end of the day, even with those opportunities, it is the quality of the work. It's the networking, it's the personality that will determine whether you are successful down the road. So it's not an end all, but that might be my piece of advice.
Catherine: Mm, I get that. But I can hear from what you're saying that's true. But also the other side, from what you've told us, that the path has just been magical for you in a different kind of way too. And you've found yourself at a firm that isn't really that focused on that, that you just said. It's more about where you are and what you can contribute and the value, but I can see both sides.
Excellent.
Let's head into the final Super seven. It's a quick fire round of seven questions I ask every guest to wind up the interview. The first one is, if you could live anywhere, where would you live? Anywhere in the world?
Maria: That's a difficult question. I like to travel. I've been to a lot of amazing places. I've obviously lived in Japan, and I've also lived in Germany. So I love living in Japan, don't get me wrong, but I might choose Germany. I loved living in Germany. I also speak the language better, so that helps.
Catherine: Is there a podcast or book that you are listening to or reading that you would like to recommend?
Maria: In terms of a book that I've been enjoying and reading, it's actually the, I won it from the Women in Law Japan event, the Get on Board, by Olga Mack. So I've been really enjoying that.
I don't have as much time to sit down and read a book as I would like, but I would recommend it. I think it's really, really a great book and I love the appendices in it with the practical advice, and kind of how to outline documents and things like that for trying to get on a corporate board.
So I'm learning a lot.
Catherine: A good book. Such a good book.
And we'll pop that in the show notes cuz it's just a great book and I'm so glad you won that. Actually, it was when your name was called out, I was like, Yay, Maria got that.
We look forward to your review later when you finish it and a year later is fine.
Any podcasts then?
Maria: Podcasts? Well, I listen to your podcast obviously, but I tend to do a lot of audiobooks actually. I have an Audible account and recently I've been doing a lot of the Great courses. I don't know if you've ever heard of them. It's not actually through Audible. It's a separate it's a separate website, but they release the audio versions of their classes on Audible.
And so I tend to listen to those lectures when I'm commuting back and forth because it's easy, and so there's just so many courses you can do. History you can do, science you can do there. There's so many. So recently I just finished one that was game theory and economics.
So I thought that was pretty interesting. But I've also listened to courses like, understanding the cultural History of Japan.
Catherine: Sounds great.
Maria: Yeah, so I recommend them.
Catherine: The great courses.
Love it. Thank you. So was that Japanese?
Maria: Yeah, the Japanese.
Catherine: German, Japanese just came out. What's your favourite saying then, or kotowaza in Japanese? Something that you always find yourself saying.
Maria: An expression that I always remember is actually from my mum. and I have to give a little bit of background on this.
So when my mum married my dad, my mum was raised Lutheran and my dad's Catholic, and at that time, Lutherans and Catholics did not get married. Their families were not happy that they were getting married. And the day of the wedding, my grandma told my mum that she would help her cancel the wedding and pay for everything.
My mum was 36 at the time and my dad was 42. So they were adults and their families still didn't want them getting married. But, my mum turned to her mum and said, If this is a mistake, it's a mistake I want to make. And I thought that was just like, that's the expression that I always think about.
And it's being very intentional about what you want and what you need in your life, and only you can make the decisions and she was willing to accept the mistake if it was a mistake, although it turned out not to be. I mean, they're still happily married.
Catherine: Wow.
Maria: That would probably be the expression that I remember more than anything.
Catherine: Oh my goodness. I got total goosebumps as you just saw on screen there. If this is a mistake, it's one I wanna make. Ugh. Oh, that is fantastic. I love it. That is the one to think. And you know, you said that earlier on today too, about maybe you make a mistake, but you learn from your mistakes.
Love it. All right. Woo. If you were gonna write a book tomorrow, talking about books and you love books, audiobooks, if you were gonna dictate an audiobook tomorrow, what would you write it about? Just off the top of your head.
Maria: I would probably do some sort of fantasy style book. In particular, I would like to do something that blends Japanese mythology and modern day Japan. Not Harry Potter, but you know how that magical world exists side by side with the regular world. And I would like to do something similar to that, but with Japanese culture and Japanese mythology.
Catherine: That's very interesting. Wow.
If you could have a billboard with anything written on it about you, what would it say and why?
Maria: Choose what's best for you. Don't worry about what other people think. Life has a funny way of taking you where you need to go, even if you don't always think that's where you need to go. And so throughout the process, you can only just choose what's best for you.
Catherine: That's brilliant. And last question is, if you were not a lawyer, what do you think you would be?
Maria: Honestly, I don't know. Like I said, I just kind of take things one day at a time. I like where I'm at. Clearly, I'm not afraid to change what I'm doing. But I don't really have any intentions of changing things. And going back to that first question of what I wanted to be growing up, I didn't have an answer then, honestly I still don't have an answer.
I don't know what I wanna be when I grow up. I don't feel like I'm finished growing up.
Catherine: I think you've grown up and you're enjoying what you're doing. You're really, I mean, obviously showing us, Maria, that you have been a fabulous lawyer on air. You are really enjoying your life as a lawyer in Japan. It's the pathway you've come to that you never thought you'd ever be on. I mean, Japan wasn't on your radar at all.
And that's often the case for the guests who come on Lawyer on Air. They just don't know that they're gonna end up in Japan. You are proof that language and culture, you know, not having those understandings is not a barrier to work in Japan. It's really a place where you can embrace all these other aspects of yourself to become a fabulous lawyer here.
Thank you so much for taking the time today to come on and tell us your truly wonderful story and your insights and gems for everybody. Thank you so much. It was really great to connect in this way with you.
Maria: Thank you for having me on the show. I really appreciate it.
Catherine: So how can listeners get in touch with you if they'd like to? Would that be LinkedIn or through your work email? What would you like?
Maria: So I am on LinkedIn. Also through my work email. I think I would prefer the work email just because I think I'll be a little bit quicker to respond.
Catherine: We’ll pop that in the show notes then, so people can get in touch with you and they may reach out to you to learn a little bit more about your curious career. So, let me know if they do. I'd love to know who's been curious, not the person, but just the questions that they ask you. And so for my listeners, please do go ahead and like this episode and subscribe to Lawyer on Air.
As everyone says on all podcasts, having people subscribe and write reviews really does help all of us little podcasters be seen and heard by more people. Do go and share this episode too with someone you think might be curious about setting up a law practice themselves or doing something different with their life as Maria has shown us.
Thanks everybody for now. Cheers, kampai and see you on the next episode.
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