From sales executive to law firm partner with Yumiko Ohta
A full transcript follows.
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Are you wondering if you could be an associate in a law firm, even though you are “older”? Yumiko Ohta didn’t let anything stand in the way of passing the bar exam and joining a law firm later in life. Now a partner in one of the best places to work, Yumiko shares her story of leading her career and family choices.
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In this episode you’ll hear:
How Yumiko came to be working in sales rather than the law after university
How she took a chance to study for the bar exam and failing, studying again
Starting out “late” as an associate in a law firm but finding her place as a person with real life experiences
Deciding what your priorities are and going after them
Her favourite book and other fun facts
About Yumiko
Yumiko is a partner at US-based global law firm Orrick Herrington and Sutcliffe LLP in its Tokyo office. Yumiko is a member of the Employment Law Group and focuses mainly on HR matters as well as various corporate transactions including compliance, corporate governance, mergers and acquisitions, joint ventures, litigation and general corporate transactions.
Before joining Orrick, Yumiko was an associate at Tanabe & Partners, where she acquired the basic foundational skills to practise law.
She also has experience serving as a statutory auditor for Japanese corporations and also served as a court appointed mediator for 10 years.
Prior to practicing law, she worked at Mitsubishi Corporation in the Sales section for seven years. While there, she was involved in LNG projects and other global business.
Yumiko attained her LL.B. from University of Tokyo and is a member of the Dai-ichi Tokyo Bar Association. She is also offers up her time as Vice-Chair of Human Resource Management, Committee of American Chamber of Commerce (ACCJ).
Connect with Yumiko
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/yumiko-ohta-84b330140/
Links
Yakitori Abe: https://hitosara.com/0006049203/?cid=gm_hp
Bottled Lightning: https://www.amazon.com/Bottled-Lightning-L-M-Weeks-ebook/dp/B09ZWQT54Y
Connect with Catherine
Linked In https://www.linkedin.com/in/oconnellcatherine/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lawyeronair
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/catherine.oconnell.148
Twitter: https://twitter.com/oconnelllawyer
Transcript
Catherine: Hi everyone. Welcome to another episode in season four of Lawyer On Air. I'm the host of the show, Catherine O'Connell. Today I am joined by Yumiko Ohta. Yumiko is a partner in the Tokyo office of US based global law firm, Orrick Herrington and Sutcliffe LLP.
Orrick has been named one of the 100 best Places to Work for seven years in a row. And this year ranked number 13 and was ranked the top law firm in the US. Orrick is a truly integrated global law firm and the Tokyo office is well connected with the offices of Orrick in the US, Europe and in Asia. Yumiko joined Orrick in 2010 as an associate and was promoted to partner in 2017.
She is a member of the employment Law Group and focuses mainly on HR matters as well as various corporate transactions including compliance, corporate governance, mergers and acquisitions, joint ventures, litigation and general corporate transactions. Before joining Orrick Yumiko was an associate at Tanabe & Partners, which is a mid-sized local law firm where she acquired the foundational skills to practise law.
Yumiko also has experience serving as a statutory auditor for Japanese corporations, and she also served as a court appointed mediator for 10 years. Prior to practising law, Yumiko worked at Mitsubishi Corporation in the sales section for seven years. While there, she was involved in LNG projects and other global business.
Yumiko attained her LLB from University of Tokyo and is a member of the Dai Ichi Tokyo Bar Association, where I'm also a member. Yumiko also offers up her time as vice chair of the Human Resources Management Committee of American Chamber of Commerce, ACCJ. Yumiko ranks high in various law directories and has been quoted in the Japan Times, Bloomberg and other media.
Yumiko and her firm were finalists at the ALB Japan Law Awards 2022, on June 2nd this year. Which is where I met Yumiko, we sat at the same table and enjoyed a really great evening together. Yumiko was a finalist in ALBs Woman Lawyer of the Year law firm category alongside me in the same category.
Yumiko tells me that she loves sports, she plays tennis and also does yoga regularly, and she also loves watching sports as well. Well, I'm super glad to bring you Yumiko Ohta today as my guest and share her story with you. Yumiko, welcome to the show.
Yumiko: Hi. Thank you very much for your introduction of me. Thanks Catherine.
Catherine: You are welcome. And today, Yumiko, we're going to talk about your career path, influences you've had along your journey, your work and life inside and outside of Japan, your career before the law, becoming a partner, and I'd also really love you to offer up some tips and ideas for that next generation of lawyers who are coming through the ranks behind you.
How does all that sound?
Yumiko: Hopefully I have something to talk about.
Catherine: I'm sure you do. Well, we always have the same opening question. I'm going to ask you that one as well. We are online today. But if we were going to be meeting up again in person, where would we go to? Do you have a favourite wine bar or cafe or restaurant that you love? And what would be your choice of beverage off the menu?
Yumiko: Right? Yes. And so I would love to take you to a nice yakitori Restaurant in Meguro.
Catherine: Hmm.
Yumiko: Which is called Yakitori Abe. I think, you know, but I love wine and we had a lot of wine together, you know, at the party the other day.
Catherine: We did.
Yumiko: And yes, and they serve very nice wine, champagnes, together with yakitori.
They do this kind of typical Japanese style, we don't order, but they just keep serving yakitori kushi until we say stop. So we just say we cannot eat that or we don't want to eat that. But then they will just arrange, and then bring yakitori to us. And this is a very nice, cosy place.
Catherine: Wow, that's amazing. So it's lots of fun. You don't know what's coming?
Yumiko: Right, exactly. Yes. Yes, it is.
Catherine: Oh, wow. Sounds exciting. I'd love to go there. I love the idea of having things brought to you that you don't know what's coming.
That sounds like lots of interesting fun to have. And of course you can say no if you don't want something or take it back. That's pretty cool.
Yumiko: Yeah.
Catherine: Cool. Okay, let's try that again sometime soon. And as we're getting into autumn, it's really lovely to have those sorts of wine and cool beverages.
Thank you. Well, let's get into your career, but I also want to ask you at the very, very beginning stages, what you wanted to be when you were a child, because I noticed on your LinkedIn profile that you did some early days at Marymount International school in London. So I really am curious to know about those early days when you were a child and you know, did you think about what you wanted to become when you got older?
Yumiko: Oh, okay. Yes. It's a long story. When I was a small kid I went to the elementary school and junior high where the Empress Masako sama graduated and she was very famous at that time as well and for her leadership, personality and her brightness. So I joined the softball club at the junior high, which Masako sama created.
And so I had a lot of respect for her and was thinking, I want to be like her. And so when I was in junior high, I think I wanted to be a diplomat like her.
Catherine: I see.
Yumiko: And no idea about law. And I had no knowledge about the bar exam system in Japan. And so that was what I was thinking. And then when I started high school, my father was transferred to London to work.
And so my sister and I went with our mother, and then I went to Marymount.
And then, but at that time I was still thinking about becoming a diplomat, or doing some international business like trading. And that was what I was thinking then. And then I came back to Japan for university, and at Tokyo University I majored in law and surprisingly, like, almost like 50% of my friends wanted to take the bar and the rest 50% wanted to take the national exam, to work for ministries. And then I realised that, oh, there is a profession in the law area. But I was too late to notice that, and I just decided to devote my
university time to playing tennis and enjoying my time.
And at that time, the Japanese bar was so competitive, only 500 people passed every year, and the passing rate was something like 2 - 3%. And I thought, No, no way. I cannot make it. But at the same time when I was studying law at the university, I liked it and I was very interested in the law itself. And I kind of decided or thought that maybe in the later stage of my career or when I turn into something like thirties and it may be good timing for me to take the bar and have kids and become a lawyer.
So I think that I really kind of thought about that when I was at the university but I just decided that I wanted to do some international business and trading and things. So I decided to work for Mitsubishi Corporation and taking the exam to become a diplomat flew away somewhere.
Catherine: So people often in Japan study law and don't really intend to become a lawyer as such. You did think about it when you were there. Is law a popular subject to study so that it opens up different pathways for you? Is that the general idea?
Yumiko: I think it was different at my time that law was quite popular, I think and especially at the Tokyo University many people really wanted to study law and wanted to become lawyers or judges or prosecutors.
But probably not any more in Japan, after the new law school system was introduced. Before we had the law school things, it took average of six to seven years to pass the bar.
However, there is no qualification. So anyone can really try to take the bar without investing to go to law schools or anything. But anyone like myself, you know, just graduated long time ago doing other things and decided to take the bar, that was possible.
Catherine: Mm. It's interesting. Yeah. It's interesting that you didn't, even though half your class, half the people wanted to take the bar, half didn't, but that you didn't feel the pressure to do it, then you sort of knew you wanted to do it maybe later.
So already at that time, you seemed to have quite good judgement about yourself and your capabilities that you didn't have to just do what everyone else was doing and sit the bar then, you could think about doing it later. Is that kind of where you were at in your thinking?
Yumiko: Yes. And to me it was kind of too risky, you know, black and white, pass or not pass. And so many people trying for several years and they reach it like 30, and it's too kind of late to start a new career. And it's very hard to stop trying the bar because people were so close to passing but failed.
And then it's very difficult to say, this is gonna be my last chance. I will stop it next year. And so when I was very young, graduated from university, I thought it's good to start something working and think about it. And some people do actually take the bar while working for a company So I thought I would think about it and do it later, but I really wanted to do it later.
Catherine: Right. I see. So you did get out of Tokyo University with your LLB and you joined Mitsubishi Corporation. Did you look for that particular role? Were they a company that you looked up to that you wanted to join? How did that come about that you started with them?
And then you're in the sales team. And as I know in a lot of Japanese companies that people, no matter what degree they've got, will be assigned to a particular department or function. Was it like that for you?
Yumiko: Uh, yes. And it was kind of a long time ago and it was difficult for women to be hired at trading houses in Japan. I took the interview and there was no one who, no female who was sent to the sales departments before. And they were sent to like legal departments or finance or always back office type of things.
But I wanted to do the sales. During the interview, the company people, they said, actually, we are thinking about sending some female fresh employees to the sales department, are you interested? And so I was so excited and said, Yes, and I wanna do it. And it was like, okay, we have a deal.
Catherine: Oh great.
Yumiko: Yeah, so I was very excited and really wanted to do it, and they really assigned me to the LNG department which was very international, it's not domestic, and so I liked it very much.
Catherine: So were you doing international sales then, because your English was already formulated, you were still obviously progressing on that, but you had had a basis in English. Was that part of that as well? So that you could do international sales?
Yumiko: I think so. Yes,
Catherine: Uh, I see. And why sales? Why were you so excited about sales?
Yumiko: I mean, it's what the trading house is doing, you know, the core business. I really wanted to do international trading to work with global companies or non-Japanese people. And I wanted to see the world, and not just Japan, but how business people see things, how well the world is progressing.
Catherine: Right. Cause I would think that first, what I would call a first career or pre-law career in sales would've really set you up so well for being a lawyer. You would've seen the insights into the thought process of customers, their buying journey. And it would've really helped you develop your skills and techniques to be what you do now, I imagine, which is business development in the firm.
And because most of the work that we do, as well as advising in the law, is actually sales. So I thought that might have been a really good basis for you starting out in the law to have had that first career in sales.
Yumiko: Yeah, so two things I think, I was doing like sell and purchase agreements and shareholder related matters. So I was working closely with in-house counsel. I attended many negotiations between oil and gas companies and the global companies like Shell Petronas and things.
So that part was helpful. But the other thing is because I'm doing HR and employment and because I know how companies in Japan work and how HR works, how people work every day, what's the work roles and how people observe and things, you know, everything to do with HR companies or something, which I really know myself.
And so that also helps me a lot.
Catherine: Right. And so was it really through the sales that it made you quite interested in the HR side of things, which maybe at the time you weren't so sure, or didn't really realise, but now you can link up the dots and see looking in the rear view mirror that actually the sales work that you were doing with HR teams, with those in-house counsel, with global negotiations has led you to where you are now.
Yumiko: I think so. Yes.
Catherine: Interesting. But you finished with Mitsubishi and then you didn't quite go straight into law. Right? You had another happening in your life. I'd love you to tell us about that, cuz I think that's very interesting.
Yumiko: Yes. I worked for Mitsubishi Corporation for quite a long time, seven years. I loved it, but I thought it would be a challenge to have a family and kids and work for Mitsubishi at the time. At the time it's very different. I think now it's much easier for women to work and have kids and stuff. I got married and my husband was assigned to Kuala Lumpur and then I decided that this is the time I want to have a kid and I want to try the bar.
And so I decided to quit Mitsubishi Corporation and I went to Kuala Lumpur with my husband.
Catherine: So how do you just decide that? Because for many people they may think, Oh, Kuala Lumpur, I can't possibly have a child. Or how on earth would I study while I'm in another country? So I'm fascinated how you came up with that idea and were determined to do that. What happened with that way of thinking?
Yumiko: I was actually travelling to Kuala Lumpur for maybe over 30 times. I was in charge of the Malaysia project, so I knew the place very well. And I was very comfortable about living there and bringing up a kid. And so for that part, it's fine. And also I was so busy working for Mitsubishi Corporation and I didn't have time to study, but I was so excited to have time for myself to study. But of course we cannot manage the timing of having a baby.
And, so I wasn't sure if I could just start studying right away or would have a baby. But then it turns out that I got pregnant quite immediately after I moved to Kuala Lumpur. So I decided to do that first and I had a son and when he turned two years old I seriously started working for the bar.
Catherine: Right. And at that time you were still in KL?
Yumiko: Yes.
Catherine: Oh, I see. And so studying for the bar. To actually sit the exam, you'd have to come to Japan.
Yumiko: I did. Yes.
Catherine: Right. And had you already returned to Japan or you had to travel to sit the exam and then go back?
Yumiko: Right. So the first time I took it I was still in KL, and so I had to bring my baby son with me to Japan to take the bar because I couldn't leave him in KL.
Catherine: I’m not sure how you managed that.
Yumiko: I know, and in the Japanese bar we have to take three tests. A multiple choice in May, essays in July, and the verbal test in October.
And so I had to take my son in May to take the exam and I chose the night flight so that he could sleep, and he slept and I was all relieved. And then there was an announcement saying, Oh, I'm sorry. We cannot fly tonight due to some engine trouble. So you have to stay at the accommodation that we arranged.
I was like, Oh, no.
I have lots of stories about taking the exam and, you know, I went back to Japan. I just brought my son to my parents-in-law and I stayed at my parents' house, but it was only like three days before the exam and immediately after the exam, I went to pick up my son. And went back to KL and came back again in July.
And so, my son was always there with me and went through all of this. And that year I went to move on to the second, essays, but I didn't make it.
And then we came back to Japan at the end of that year. And so the next exam I was able to take in Japan.
Catherine: Ah, right. So you already settled back into Japan at that time, but what a journey. What are your learnings from those times?
Yumiko: Well, I was lucky, I think I was very lucky that Japan started the law school system and so they opened the door. When I was at the university, there were only 500 people who passed the exam, and then they expanded to 1000 people for a long time, but when I passed the exam, it was 1,500 people.
So I'm pretty sure I'm one of these added last ones. But I was lucky that the system is changing and because I didn't make the bar and the law school started and I decided that I would also enroll in the law school in case I wouldn't make the bar exam next year. And so actually I went to the Hitotsubashi law school, one of the very first students when the law school began. So I passed the bar when I was just at law school. I stopped, I quit law school because I didn't need to anymore, but so I was very lucky that the doors opened for people like me, to become a lawyer.
Catherine: But you were also hedging your bets too, weren't you? You'd done the bar exam, but you were preparing yourself just in case it wasn't successful and you could join the new, or you were part of that training at Hitotsubashi.
Yumiko: Uh, Yes. And that's a law school, so if I didn't make the old bar exam, then I could take the new bar exam and the passing rate was much higher.
Catherine: Mm. You're being very wise on that one. Right. Okay. I think that's quite wise to be trying two different options and seeing which one worked. But you did pass and that's fantastic. So how did you then, you joined Tanabe & Partners. How do you find the role when, you're at the training, right?
You're still at Hitotsubashi Law School and then you're waiting to see if you've passed. Are you also searching for the job?
Yumiko: No, No, actually at my time we started searching for law firms after we joined the institute.
Catherine: Ah.
Yumiko: And the institute lasted for one and a half years, much longer. And because last people passed the exam at the year that I passed, and so I just finished school and then joined the institute and studied like others and was searching for law firms to work for.
Catherine: Right. And when you joined them, you did the fundamentals that lawyers need to do. So what kinds of things should lawyers concentrate on in those first couple of years when they join a firm?
Yumiko: Right. In my case, I still had my son and he just started elementary school when I became a lawyer. And so I thought that it would be too challenging for me to learn how to practise law in English. And so I chose a domestic law firm, so that I could just focus on learning how to practise.
Catherine: Ah, so that's almost like a step towards later when you wanted to concentrate on law in English. You did your law in Japanese first.
Yumiko: Yes, yes. And I thought it would be too much for me because my time was limited to try to learn how to practise law in English.
Catherine: Right. So what do you concentrate on then? Are you learning from other partners how they're doing their work? Are you doing what's assigned to you? Are you trying to build relationships? What are you sort of thinking about? Do you remember at that time what you concentrated on?
Yumiko: Yes. Yes. And so Tanabe & Partners had a system that two lawyers assigned to every work. And it isn't necessarily a partner and associate. Sometimes it's two associates or two partners. And so I got to work with many senpai lawyers at the law firm. And so it's kind of a traditional Japanese way that lawyers are assigned to clients and so for example, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs was my assigned client.
And I was working with a partner on every matter that they brought in. And also I was assigned to many companies as well, some listed companies and some startups and private companies. And so when they have a shareholder meeting, then we will assist a client with preparations.
And when they have issues with HR, then we help them with HR issues. Corporate or sometimes even criminal or IP, you know, everything just comes to us. And so when we need some expertise internally, then we will discuss with other lawyers. But we were just expected to learn everything. And that was such a learning experience.
Catherine: Learning experience. Right. And what challenges then came across your path? I mean, having the Ministry of Foreign Affairs as a client must have been quite phenomenal, and you would've learned a lot about the inside of government organisations as well. But what kinds of challenges came across your path then?
Yumiko: Well, the partners also had like individuals as clients and you know, I have a kid and I am not very young, and so the partners wanted me to help them with cases like divorce or family matters and things.
You know, I was considered kind of mature compared to younger lawyers and that was a huge challenge to help the divorce and family cases.
But that was a learning as well and how to really be with clients. I think I learned how to negotiate in courts as well. I did a lot of litigation, not just for the family matters, but other matters as well. And yes, that's something which international or large Japanese law firms don't handle.
But that experience also kinda made my career a little different from others.
Catherine: Yeah, I would think so. Yeah.
Yumiko: And that helped a lot.
Catherine: I sort of think, you made me think back to my earlier days back in New Zealand when I did general practice as well as a commercial work, but I had a lot of family matters and I think when you was talking, I was thinking myself how it made me think about people's situations and their emotional state when they're in the middle of an issue, and how you need empathy towards them when they're going through those family matters.
And I think that helps you later on, but you don't often get that experience once you are in a firm like you are in now. Of course we need to be exhibiting empathy, but I think if we don't have that chance to be in family matters and divorces and things like that, it's hard to get that experience.
So it's quite an unusual one that you've had, but it served you very well for later on. Right?
Yumiko: Yes. Yes, exactly.
Catherine: And you moved though, eventually to Orrick where you are now and became an associate with them. Tell us about that moving from a local firm and your desire to then go into a large global firm.
Yumiko: Yes, so my plan was to stay at Tanabe for a little bit longer until our son will probably graduate from elementary school and then go to junior high. That was the time I was thinking. But I got an opportunity to work at Orrick but I was hesitant and I was so worried that probably I will not be able to go home to look after or even see my son before he goes to sleep, and the work at Orrick would probably be too busy for me to handle.
Because at Tanabe & Partners, there are many working mothers and fathers. And it was common for lawyers to go home at like seven or eight o'clock, for example. Of course, there are many lawyers who stay until the last train. But, many lawyers, not just female, but male lawyers, we really wanted to finish work efficiently and get it done and go home.
And so I was not in the office like every day, like nine and 10. It wasn't like that. But I thought at Orrick probably I would have to be in the office until midnight and I cannot handle that. And so then, the Orrick partners told me that, no, absolutely not. You can work from home at night, no problem. And when I moved to Orrick, the position was in the employment law group and I didn't really choose it, but it was like a need at Orrick and because I was doing some employment law work for Orrick at that time, and they recruited me.
And so I didn't choose to be an employment lawyer actually, but that was a time then I decided, okay, this is my profession. I am going to be an employment lawyer. But it just came. I was told that most of the clients don't live in Japan. They are in the US or sometimes in Singapore or Hong Kong.
And there is a time difference. So at night, if I have to do the call, then I can do it from home. And many HL people are actually female and they are very time conscious and efficient and I should get along with them well, and I thought I could believe this and I decided to move.
But it was really like I wasn't really sure if I could really do well.
Catherine: And you had fears that you thought was the case, but until you actually asked the question, Oh, do I have to work late? And they told you the answer, No, you could work possibly late, but you could work from home in the evenings if you wanted to or needed to. So you cleared out the myth that you thought that you had in your mind, right?
And the reality was different.
Yumiko: Yes, and there were no working mother lawyers at Orrick at the time. I wasn't really sure, but when I moved, and actually it was much easier actually to work for Orrick than even with Tanabe.
Because they got me a Blackberry and so before I wasn't even able to read my emails outside of the office, so I had to be in the office if I had some urgent matters or if I was expecting a call or draft or something, but with Orrick I had my Blackberry, I could do the call, I could read emails and I could bring my computer home.
So I was really able to get my work done at night and that time zone helped me a lot because I'm a night person and I started working after nine when my son went to bed. I don't mind doing a call with New York at midnight.
Catherine: I see. Yeah.
Yumiko: They so much appreciated me for doing this, you know, and they were like, I'm so sorry for keeping you awake so late at night.
So I'm gonna keep this call short, kind of things, but I took a lot of advantage of the time difference and it worked well.
Catherine: Wow, that's so good.
Yumiko: Yes, yes.
Catherine: Yes, because some people say that they don't like the night calls, but you're a night person, so it works so perfectly with your biological clock.
Yumiko: That's right. And also that was the time when I really, I was able to focus on my work at night, at my work desk.
Catherine: And that's fantastic. I mean, the Blackberry people complained about them, but they were so efficient and obviously it helped you to be able to be flexible. You weren't tied to your desk at the office. You could be more flexible how you worked, having had that tool with you. Yeah. And I loved how you also said that most of the HR people that you were working with were women and they were very efficient with their time.
Much like these people talking with you at night on the call, they know you're up late. So they're very efficient with their time. So all of those things factored together made it a really quite efficient way for you to be working.
Yumiko: Yes. And yes. I was very fortunate, you know, and I always think that it's not that I designed it that way, you know, I never designed to be an employment lawyer. I just happened to be one and all my experience at Mitsubishi Corporation helped me with that. And I really didn't look for a new position, but it kind of came.
So my favourite phrase which I like, it's a Japanese phrase and I translate it into English, but this is; doors to opportunities have no door knobs. And this is kind of, uh, I like, and this is what my life is. I try to be prepared, I guess. Then some opportunities do come and I just grab it.
This is how I was living.
Catherine: What does that mean though? The doors to opportunity have no door knobs. Does that mean you just push and they open rather than having to turn a knob?
Yumiko: Yeah, we cannot open it. I cannot open it myself, but when the door opens, that's the time. That's the only time that I can get it.
Catherine: I see. Yeah, it'll just open and that's the time that you walk through.
Yumiko: Right. So kind of be prepared and wait for the opportunities because I think opportunities and luck will always come to anyone and we just need to notice it and be ready and have courage, have some nerve to go and get it.
Catherine: It sounds like Malaysia. It sounds like Mitsubishi. It sounds like where you are now, Tanabe. Was it true, am I right in thinking that Orrick asked Tanabe to help them with the employment work?
Yumiko: Mm-hmm.
Catherine: I see. And so that led you to be advising on the employment area. It seems like it's all fitted together and anyone looking from the outside would think, of course, naturally that all fits together.
But it's interesting. At the time you weren't so noticing of that. But then here's this opportunity that comes up and all the pieces fit together so nicely. It's really great. What do you love about your work now? When you are doing your work? What gives you joy about the kind of work that you are doing?
Yumiko: Oh, I love doing almost everything as a lawyer. Yeah.
Catherine: Great to hear that. Yes.
Yumiko: I love building up strategies for litigation or for negotiations as well. I love drafting and kinda secretly putting provisions, which I expect to be needed in the future, but no one notices it and gets it. And after a few years, clients come back and say, Oh, we have an issue.
And I go like, Here we are. That's already in here. This is what I like.
Catherine: Ah, so you can see the future. You can see the future.
Yumiko: Yeah. You can see that as well, right. It's experience.
Catherine: You can kind of guess what might happen, right? And, but you've put it in there and you're almost predicting or thinking about if this does happen, I need to be able to protect my client in this way.
Yumiko: Right. So the good thing about being a lawyer is I think the experience counts. So, if we get older, we lose something, but still, I think we are still piling up our experience so we can be like a stronger lawyer.
Catherine: Right. And you also do a lot of corporate governance advice for your corporates. And I think, back earlier, perhaps it was at Tanabe you did external statutory order to work for Japanese startups. So this area of corporate governance, is that also part of what you are doing now on a daily basis advising clients?
Yumiko: Yes. Yes, I do.
Catherine: I see. So what does that involve? The corporate governance? We hear a lot about ESG these days. It's a very hot topic. Often the E and the S are talked about, but not the G, the governance part not so much. What does corporate governance mean to you and how do you advise clients on that?
Yumiko: Most of my clients are US or European foreign companies and have wholly owned subsidiaries in Japan. And so don't have many listed clients, but more global and inter company kind of things. So the corporate governance is not very complicated with my work at Orrick, but some companies are classified as large companies, then they need to implement internal control system or very Japan specific governance.
So I assist, we assist our clients with building up these things. And always the challenge is that we need to explain all the laws and the best practices to the people in the head office outside of Japan. And so we for example, compare in the US this is like this, but in Japan this is a rule or this is the best practice and our recommendation is this type of approach.
Catherine: And part of that was when you were on the other side, you were actually advising as a statutory auditor on some companies. How does that work in Japan? I think before we recorded today, you were telling me that it's quite common for lawyers to be that external board member, that statutory auditor for Japanese companies.
How does that come about?
Yumiko: Yes. So many Tanabe & Partners partners serve as external directors and external strategy auditors because the companies actually require certain external officers and the listed companies, large companies, and it's pretty typical for companies to hire lawyers or accountants for such a position.
And I was an external auditor at a Japanese startup, but when I was at Tanabe & Partners. And so what we did was we reached through all the board papers and materials, which could be quite substantial and attend the board meetings and actively be involved in the discussions if needed.
It's a kind of very typical work that lawyers do in Japan, but not at global companies.
Catherine: Yes, that's right. So I was going to say that's another advantage of working for a local law firm is that you do get those opportunities to have a board position in that way, external advisor. So I think that's great. What kind of opportunities would a woman lawyer then get from doing that?
What advantages or what opportunities do you think that brings somebody who's a female lawyer?
Yumiko: So there is a strong need for companies to hire female officers, and they find it very difficult generally to promote internally. You know, it takes time, it takes years for them to really promote women. And so women lawyers are very popular in the market, I think for these positions.
I do know a lot of people, my friends, lawyers, serving for the position. It's a heavy burden, but it's very exciting and yes, they get director's compensation as well. So they're compensated for the work.
Catherine: Yeah, so knowing since I do one myself, I know it can be a bit of a burden. There is a lot of material to read.
What about when women lawyers are maybe offered such an opportunity? What do you think they should consider or questions they should ask themselves about those sort of opportunities?
Like for me, you know, is it aligned? Is that kind of company or their mission aligned with my mission or my vision? And you know, maybe; do I like the people who are on the board? Would I be able to work with them? Those are the kinds of things that I thought about and you know, of course, do I have the skills and experience and competency to add to the board?
Is there anything you would add to that when people are sort of thinking about it? Maybe a woman lawyer's been offered a position, what they should think about as they decide to join that kind of board opportunity.
Yumiko: Yes, And this is what we wrote in the white paper for the ACCJ HR committee and about the LGBT Marriage Equality things. And our belief is that diversity is directly connected to the financial outcome of the company. And diversity does really help companies to succeed. And just an addition, maybe just one addition of a woman, female director or strategic auditor, but that diversity should have a great impact on the company.
And so I think, I will say they should be proud to be one and have confidence that they can contribute to the company and have their own views. And so it's not just promoting females internally, but about all the business and how to make the company a great place to work for employees, for example.
And lots of things I think they can do and also for the business as well. And women put a very good priority, for example, of things. And in a sense, quick to learn. And so, I really encourage them to take a position if there is any opportunity.
Catherine: Great. And also you talked about ACCJ there and that preparation of the white paper. How about those kinds of opportunities as well, the external, being able to contribute to society and to the business community in that kind of way? Would you recommend that kind of volunteer work as well for lawyers to be trying to engage in?
Yumiko: Yes, yes, definitely. Our US offices do a lot of work, pro bono work or activities in diversity. And I think, that is really creating a culture and we have a very strong women kind of society and every time we go for a partner retreat, there is like a women lawyer cocktails and celebration of new partners.
I think it helps a lot for lawyers to be involved in activities outside of the law, but to be in this society.
Catherine: Yeah. I think with that particular white paper, you would've been able to contribute your skills and experience, but also learn from the other businesses and the other groups that are part of the membership of ACCJ and hear what they have to say as well. So it really broadens your experience amazingly.
And I also love how you just touched on there, about the culture of your firm and you have won this accolade of being in the top 13, top law firm and in the top 13 of places that have a great environment where people want to work.
What else about that is really important? How do you get to be there?
Because there are not many law firms that make it into those grades. Other global companies make it there. But what is it about where you are that makes a great workplace? A great work environment.
Yumiko: Yes. I don't know. I haven't worked with other global law firms but Orrick really cares about the life of each lawyer and also staff as well. And we do have flexible work styles. And even before Covid, it was possible to work from home. And although, in Tokyo, most lawyers were actually working in the office before Covid.
But we do have a couple of lawyers who moved out of Tokyo and were working remotely outside of Tokyo, outside of Japan, even before Covid. Orrick does offer reduced alternative work schedules.
Catherine: Mmm.
Yumiko: 80% or 60%, or even 40 if a lawyer wishes. And the use of that doesn't really affect their promotion, you know, it's just a compensation expected global hours reduced.
The contribution is valued in a fair way.
I never used the alternative work schedule. Our son was big enough I guess, and I like to do full time, but many lawyers and associates and even partners in the US are on the alternative work schedule and they're doing very well. And, you know, work life balance is something which the firm cares about.
And collaboration always kind of open atmosphere, you know, and the firm is really trying to be creative.
And so they introduced the plug in, I mean, plug out time. And so all lawyers were expected to take one week completely off. And for associates that counts as billable hours. Otherwise it doesn't really mean much, you know, to take a week off. But people don't really take a week off. And, yes, doing a lot of things to make it a good place for everyone.
Catherine: That's an amazing incentive, right? That you can take a week off, totally plug out time and it counts as billable hours. That would have to be pretty major. I've not heard of another firm that does that. That's incredible. As well as, you know, the collaboration, openness, creativeness, alternative work schedule, that sounds like real draw cards for your firm.
What a great place to work. Lovely. Wow. Okay, so what else then is there for you in the future? What sort of things do you see as the role that you've got now or law in general in the future?
Yumiko: Yes. So in Japan, unfortunately, it's not as popular as it was to become a lawyer, I think, in Japan. And less and less people are going to law schools and taking the bar.
And because the law school system, I think, didn't quite work, didn't meet expectations, because the original design was to limit the number of schools and keep the passing rate high, like 70 and 80.
But there were just so many law schools at the beginning and the passing rate, I think it's below 50%. And people do have to invest in tuition and time at least for two years to take the bar. And so it lost the good part of becoming a lawyer at any time, anywhere, if you want was lost.
And it's not as popular as before. But I do think that we have a good future for lawyers in Japan. The AI will not wipe out, I hope, I don't think, the core work that we do, because what we do is more like the human kind of thing. It's not something which computers can figure out. And so I really hope that more young people, especially females, will try to be lawyers in the future.
Catherine: Yeah. And if they want to be lawyers and be successful, are there any top tips you might have for them to be a successful lawyer in Japan? Maybe two or three things that they should do to be successful.
Yumiko: Yes. I think there are lots of definitions of successful, right?
But just one thing is to learn the basics. I think it's very important to start a career at a place where you learn basics and start the career from there. And there are two ways of doing this. One is to become a general lawyer like many local law firm lawyers are.
And another is to focus on certain practice areas and do most of that work, which is what the large Japanese law firms and global law firms do. And so I think it's good for young lawyers to do everything at the beginning and consider what they like to do and whether they wanna do lots of things and which area of law interests them.
So my recommendation is to just start with a mid-sized law firm and start with the very basics and work with many lawyers and do lots of things and learn and think how you would like to develop your career.
Catherine: Yeah. And sometimes you can find the thing that you love quite surprisingly. Like you have with this HR and employment angle that you have. You didn't really know that was where you were going to be, but you are, and you can be surprised yourself where you end up and what kind of law that you end up loving and doing.
Yumiko: Yes, yes.
Catherine: Great.
And you're not only doing law, you're also loving your sports, and all those sorts of things. So how are you fitting those kinds of activities into your life? Do you have a kind of set time of the day that you do that, you make sure that you are also weaving those kinds of activities into your work life?
Yumiko: Yes. And so it was difficult before covid to do some yoga or tennis during week days. But after covid, I do more working from home and my activity level went down. But I have more time, you know, no time for commute, no time to get ready and things, so I have, I have more time.
So I kind of schedule yoga or tennis at night or you know, on some weekdays. And I do play a lot over the weekends when I have time, but I try to put that on my schedule so even if I don't finish my work, I just go and do and come back and, you know, finish my work after that.
Catherine: Love it. Right? You go and do it. It's on your schedule. So you go and do it and then come back cuz work can wait.
Yumiko: Right.
Catherine: Oh, good. Does your son like tennis or yoga as well?
Yumiko: Uh, yes. Actually, he's playing tennis and quite seriously.
Catherine: Oh good.
Yumiko: Yes. He does play tennis too.
Catherine: Great. Oh wow, that's really fantastic. And what else? You know, if you weren't a lawyer, what do you think you would be? Would you be a tennis player? Would you like to be a pro tennis player?
Yumiko: Oh, no, I don't have that talent. So, I can't be one, but I don't know. I love watching sports as well, and so I wanted to become like a sports writer. And I was really reading seriously, like the sports newspapers on the aeroplane when I was working at Mitsubishi, and I was just reading too seriously, and they asked me, Are you a writer, a newspaper writer, at the sports?
But I love watching rugby football, and that's my favourite these days,
Catherine: Yeah. We'll have to go see some rugby together. That's what I like.
Yumiko: Yeah, you do, you do?
Catherine: Yeah.
Yumiko: Oh, yeah. Yes, yes, yes. So excited.
Catherine: So Yumiko, you've talked a lot about your successes and opening up those doors to opportunity, but sometimes in our life things are not always as we plan and we sometimes have to give up things to get further in life. How's that been for you?
Yumiko: Yes. yeah. One thing I decided to give up is to have a second child, and it took a little longer for me to become a lawyer, and I chose not to have a second child until I passed the bar. And then at the time, I decided that I wanted to spend more time on my career, so I decided to give up having a second and more children. And so, yes, I think just going for so much, might be too much. And to think about the balance of life, sometimes I think we need to give up something. So I am not sure if I have been successful or not. If I had started as a lawyer much younger then I would've been different.
And if I started as a lawyer without working for a company, then I probably would not be doing employment law. And I might have two or three kids now, but it's just life, how it goes. And I was just that kind of flexible with my life stage and did what I can do. But it was a kind of determination that I wanted to be a lawyer and build my practice.
So that's what I have been doing,
Catherine: So going for it and being determined, but at the same time, having a balanced way of looking at your life. And that's really what you've concentrated on, right? And no regrets. It's just the way things have gone for you. Is that what you're saying?
Yumiko: Yes, yes. So, I haven't talked about my son much yet. And the thing is, I asked him whether he wanted to have a second child and you know, after I passed the bar, he thought about it and said no. And so it was his option. He remembers that he decided he wanted to monopolise his parents' attention to himself.
So he never said, I want a little sister or brother. And he was always with me. Sometimes I wasn't able to come home for dinner. But he was at the elementary school and he didn't have money. And there was no Uber at the time. But then I arranged the pizza to be delivered home.
Yes, he didn't enjoy having babysitters at home. So when he was like 10, he asked me, Can I wait for you alone? I'm happy to be alone at 10 o'clock. Just, it's better to be alone than spending time with babysitters and things, but it seems like he does have a lot of respect for me, which is a good thing.
So he didn't take it as a bad experience of loneliness or anything, but he kind of really shared my passion for my profession and he was really seeing how hard I was working and I kind of tried to look after him, but always not really being able to do so and was not really doing a lot of like housework.
I often kind of put it aside, but I guess our son didn't mind it. And he was always with me and we went through this together. So this feeling, it's okay.
Catherine: Housework is not always the most important thing to be doing in a day, right? If your son feels looked after and well cared for, and also he's supporting you on your journey, that's amazing. What does your son want to be when he grows up?
Yumiko: Oh, actually he is grown up.
Catherine: Oh, he's grown up?
Yumiko: Yes, he is working for an international trading house.
Catherine: Okay, so he's working for a trading house, almost like his mum did. He doesn't wanna be a lawyer?
Yumiko: Uh, No.
And he actually started working this year and yes, he was playing tennis at the University's tennis team until last year. And yes, he wanted to be like his dad, not like mum. So he wanted to be a business person.
Catherine: Business person. Wow, that's fantastic. I'm sure he's the joy of your life and it's really great that you shared that with us. Thank you so much.
Anything else here that we have not covered today that you wanted to talk about or you didn't mention but you didn't quite cover and you want to reemphasize?
Yumiko: No, I think I talked too much about myself.
Catherine: No you didn't. No, you didn't. That was great.
Well, we'll head into the final round of questions and I'm gonna jump one and just go into a certain second question, which is, if you could live anywhere in the world, where would you live? If you could live anywhere in the world, where would you live?
Yumiko: Uh, but it has to be one place, right?
Catherine: Maybe.
Yumiko: Japan.
Catherine: Okay. What would be next to Japan? I mean, Japan, Yes, I understand why, but what would be the one outside of Japan you'd like to live?
Yumiko: Lots, there's just so many, many places that I was not able to choose one. That's why I said Japan. And, but I would probably go back to the UK
and because that's where I can see lots of great rugby, football, and tennis and all the other sports.
Catherine: Yeah, that's so true. Wimbledon and the rugby world cup is in France next year, but still very close to the UK.
Yumiko: Yes.
Catherine: Yeah. All right. How about a recent, because you read a lot of books, maybe you're also reading a lot of books about sports, but a podcast or a book that you've read recently or that you've listened to, if it's a podcast, that you'd recommend to anybody?
Yumiko: Yes. And so I have to make some announcement that our former managing partner of Tokyo, and he's still with us, he wrote a book and his name is Mark Weeks, and he wrote a novel called Bottled Lightning, which is a great novel about a half Japanese, half American lawyer. Having a Japan, and a New York license, living in Japan practicing law.
He is a managing partner of a global law firm, and he's going through lots of issues, and excitement in Japan. And yes. This is really interesting. I read it and this is a great book.
Catherine: Oh, fantastic. Fantastic. Bottled Lightning sounds great to me. And you mentioned a little saying before when we were talking about opportunity, but do you have any other favourite saying or Kotowaza that you like? Or is that really the one that you gave us; doors to opportunity have no door knobs.
Is that the favourite one of yours?
Yumiko: Yes. That's it.
Catherine: Well if you, you know, I know you mentioned Mark Weeks wrote a book, but if you were going to write a book tomorrow, what would you write a book about?
Yumiko: I want to write about rugby, football,
And, yes. And because it's so international, you know, it's just so cross-cultural. And it's amazing that Australian players, New Zealand players, are playing in the Japan team, and it is just one team. And so how they trust each other and how they kind of cultivate their friendship.
Yeah. That's just so wonderful. I just wanna write something about rugby.
Catherine: Ooh, so good. Okay. That's wonderful. And last question, if you could be instantly an expert in something, what would it be?
Yumiko: I want to be an actress, to be different people.
Catherine: Really? To be different people.
Yumiko: Yes, that should be fun.
Catherine: That should be lots of fun. Well, that's so much fun. Thank you so much, Yumiko. We've come to the end of the recording, but my goodness, it's been so great to have you in such a joyful conversation and I love talking about rugby, so I'll make sure that I keep my ears open for any opportunity for you to maybe meet some New Zealand or Australian rugby players in the future and be able to take you to a match.
We can go and see a game.
Yumiko: Yes, yes.
Catherine: I'm presuming you know the rules as well.
Yumiko: Yes, yes.
Catherine: Ah, great. All right. Well, we've had such a great conversation about career and sport and opportunities and all the different things you've done and with your family and it's been a really wonderful story. Thank you so much for giving up your time and your gems of advice also, for people who are wanting to do law.
That was really great. Thank you very much. How can people get in touch with you? Can they do that through LinkedIn or where's a good place to get hold of you?
Yumiko: Sure. LinkedIn and sending me messages is fine and then my email.
Catherine: Your business email. Yeah. Okay. We can pop all of that into the show notes later. So anyone who's interested in connecting with you and learning more can get in touch.
Yumiko: Yes, certainly.
Catherine: All right. All right, well, we'll finish it up there. Thank you so much for being a guest in season four of Lawyer On Air. And to my listeners, please do like this episode, subscribe to Lawyer on Air so it can be seen and heard by more people.
And do go ahead and share this episode with someone else in your community who you think would enjoy listening to it, to be inspired to live a wonderful lawyer extraordinaire life. That's all for me. Cheers, kampai.
Yumiko: Thank you. Bye-bye.
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