Episode Eight: Changing women’s lives with Naomi Koshi
Full transcript follows.
In 2012 my lawyer extraordinaire guest became the youngest female mayor ever in Japan. This is no small feat and even more so in Japan where at the time only 3% of mayors were women. Naomi Koshi shares her tenacity to accomplish goals that improve people’s lives. Whether they are the citizens of the city she served as mayor or in the work she now does on Smart Cities as a partner at Miura & Partners. In this episode we also discuss the timely topic of diversity on corporate boards and how Naomi is now turning her skills to increase female managers in businesses and promote more women to be elected to these boards. A value packed episode as well as a chance to get to know the woman who is a catalyst for making real changes in Japan.
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In this episode you’ll hear:
What happened when Naomi didn’t pass the Japanese Bar exam
Her “mic drop” moment that inspired her to run for mayor of Otsu City
How she instigated a change that helped women in Otsu City and is an inspiration to other cities in Japan
The words that have guided her to her new challenge of supporting more women to be board members of Japanese corporations and become female managers
Her favourite author and other fun facts
About Naomi
Naomi Koshi is a lawyer, an entrepreneur and former two-term mayor of Otsu City, the capital of Japan’s Shiga Prefecture. From 2002 to 2011, Naomi practiced corporate law at Nishimura & Asahi in Tokyo and Debevoise & Plimpton in New York. From 2010 to 2011, Naomi was a Visiting Fellow at the Center on Japanese Economy and Business at Columbia Business School in New York, researching comparative corporate governance matters.
In 2012, Naomi was elected mayor of Otsu City, a prefectural capital with over 340,000 residents. Naomi won reelection in 2016, serving a total of eight years until her second term ended in 2020. Naomi was the youngest female mayor elected in Japan's history at that time, winning office at a time when only 3% of mayors in Japan were women (another fabulous woman has recently become the youngest female mayor in Japan) . As mayor, Naomi fought to expand opportunities for Japanese women. In light of the homemaker role traditionally thrust upon Japanese mothers, and observed first hand by Naomi in her own family unit, Naomi successfully expanded Otsu's childcare system, thus making it easier for many Japanese women to return to the workforce.
Naomi is admitted to practice law in Japan, New York and California and is now a partner at the Tokyo based firm of Miura & Partners. Naomi focuses her legal practice on cross-border M&A and start-ups, including Smart City projects.
In 2021, Naomi Co-Founded OnBoard K.K., a company specializing in diversifying Japanese corporate boards. Naomi serves as CEO of the company. Naomi also serves as an outside director of V-Cube, Inc.
Naomi was selected as a Young Global Leader by the World Economic Forum in 2015 and was named an OECD Champion Mayor for Inclusive Growth. She holds multiple degrees from Hokkaido University, and an LL.M. from Harvard Law School.
Connect with Naomi
Miura & Partners https://www.miura-partners.com/en/lawyers/00049/
OnBoard K.K. https://onboardkk.com/en/
Connect with Catherine
Linked In https://www.linkedin.com/in/oconnellcatherine/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lawyeronair
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/catherine.oconnell.148
Twitter: https://twitter.com/oconnelllawyer
Transcript
Catherine: Hi, everyone. Welcome to this eighth episode of Lawyer On Air, I'm Catherine O'Connell. Today I'm joined by Naomi Koshi who is a partner at Miura & Partners in Tokyo. Naomi holds multiple degrees from Hokkaido University and LLM from Harvard Law School and she served as a visiting fellow to Columbia Business School.
She has been admitted to the Japan, New York, and California bars. What is really unique about Naomi is that in 2012, she was elected as the Mayor of Otsu city. Otsu is the capital city of Shiga Prefecture, about 350 kilometers southwest of Tokyo. When you walk out of Otsu station, you will see the shores of beautiful Lake Biwa, the largest lake in Japan. It's just 10 minutes from the famous city of Kyoto but Otsu has a completely different atmosphere than Kyoto. There are fewer tourists in Otsu and the city is calm and pleasant. It was in this off the beaten track town of Otsu with over 340,000 residents that Naomi served as mayor of the city until the start of 2020.
Japan is a country where only 3% of the city's mayors are female. So she was in a niche league with just that fact, but not only that, she was the youngest female mayor ever elected in Japan at that time. When she finished the role in January 2020, some eight years later, she still held the title for the youngest female mayor elected. Since then another young female has succeeded as being the youngest female mayor elected in Japan. As Mayor Naomi walked her campaign talk and fought strongly to expand opportunities for Japanese women, especially through improving the childcare system. As part of this mayoral journey, Naomi was selected as a Young Global Leader by the World Economic Forum. She was named an OECD Champion Mayor for inclusive growth. How she got to be mayor is a story in itself, so do listen in.
I had the distinct pleasure of first hearing Naomi speak at an American Chamber in Japan Women in Business event at the end of last year, and then I invited her to speak on Girls Festival Day on March 3rd, 2021 to the members of Women in Law Japan. Her story is so intriguing and like me, I am sure you'll be drawn into how Naomi has used her lawyer DNA to strategically make a plan to become mayor and really make a change. She has shown me that we can all as lawyers strive to go bigger and impact other people's lives wider and deeper beyond our usual realm of lawyering.
Naomi is frank in expressing her ideas around the gender gap in Japan and the imbalance of women on boards. So much so that while doing her day job as a partner in her law firm, she's recently launched a company that focuses on training women to be exceptional board members and helping companies think differently about diversity in the boardroom, and we'll hear about that exciting new chapter. Naomi also features on the front cover of the June issue of Bengoshi.com, a Japanese language print and online magazine catering to lawyers. It talks about her transition from lawyer to mayor to lawyer and probed her career decisions. I've made a point of talking about that today because I think it's fabulous that she is everywhere to be seen right now.
So as you can tell, probably from this introduction now, Naomi is a leading and incredible lawyer and I'm super proud to have her as my guest today. Naomi, welcome to the show.
Naomi: Hi, Catherine. Thank you so much for inviting me.
Catherine: I'm so happy to have you. Today we're going to talk about a lot of topics, your study journey and career as a lawyer in Japan and America, and how you achieved becoming Mayor of Otsu city, your move to Miura & Partners, and your exciting new venture focusing on women serving on boards. I'd also love you to offer up some gems of advice for young lawyers on the importance of having a varied career and having chances to be catalysts for change. How does that sound?
Naomi: That sounds great.
Catherine: Okay, today we are talking online but if we were going to be meeting up in person, where would you and I be, do you have a favorite wine bar or restaurant that you love to go to, and what would be your choice of beverage off the menu?
Naomi: Oh, so now I'm in Otsu.
Catherine: Oh, wow.
Naomi: Yeah, and there are lots of great cafes by Lake Biwa, the biggest lake in Japan. So I would like to go to a cafe here with you. That would be great.
Catherine: That sounds fabulous. Is there one that looks out to the lake?
Naomi: Yes. Yes.
Catherine: Very nice, and what would you choose? What would you be recommending? Is there a special Otsu kind of coffee or drink that we could try and have while we were there?
Naomi: Yes. We have sake.
Catherine: Oh, okay.
Naomi: Yeah, there are two sake breweries in Otsu that are very good.
Catherine: Sounds fantastic. Maybe we could go to visit the Otsu breweries for sake and also have some tastings there together.
Naomi: Yes. Yes.
Catherine: So good. I can't wait to do that. I'm really glad to hear that you're in Otsu, it really makes lots of sense for us to be talking today, that you are right there now. So let's talk about your early days and your substantial career paths so far. You're back in Otsu right now, but tell me about growing up in Otsu and who was a big influence on you in those days?
Naomi: Yeah, I was raised in Otsu and I did work with my parents, sister, and my grandmother. My mother worked as a designer, but she had to quit her job to take care of my grandmother. So I thought women have to quit jobs to take care of families and it was not what they wanted to do. So I started thinking about how we should change the situation even though I was a junior high school student.
Catherine: So junior high school what age were you then when you were thinking about this, trying to change things?
Naomi: I was 14 or 15.
Catherine: So what did you want to be when you were a child? Was it around then that you thought about how I can make a change and what kind of job could I do to make a change?
Naomi: I didn’t have any clear idea. I wanted to be involved in local administration or to change our city. But I didn't think about becoming the mayor.
Catherine: No. And what about the law then? When did you feel this calling to come to be in the law? Do you have lawyers in your family?
Naomi: No, I don't have anyone who is a lawyer in my family, but I entered the Hokkaido University Law Faculty and I think many Japanese students choose the law faculty.
Catherine: Why do they choose law? Because I've got friends as well who chose law, but they don't actually become lawyers. But why do people choose the law and why did you choose law?
Naomi: I think people think it's good. Very few people think about being a lawyer, but if you go to a good company, studying at the Law Faculty is good.
Catherine: Oh I see, so it's a good reputation. Then you did your law study and after that did you join the big law firm Nishimura & Asahi? Was there a gap or did you join them pretty soon?
Naomi: When I was a student at Hokkaido University, I took the bar exam and I failed three times.
Catherine: Oh, you what, you failed three times?
Naomi: Yeah, because at first, I took the bar exam when I was in the third grade, but I didn't pass it and I took it three times and failed and I was so depressed.
Catherine: I'm smiling about this now because I really love that you've told us this because it's showing some real trust and vulnerability to tell us this. It also makes it a story for others to hear this, that you are doing what you are doing now, but at the time you didn't pass the exam not once, not twice, but three times, and you still kept going. So for me, you explaining the story right now is absolutely amazing, and I thank you for saying it. How did you get the energy to do it three times and then finally get there? What happened to make you keep going?
Naomi: Actually I didn't have a choice. At that time around the year 2000, the economy was very bad, especially for female students, so we couldn't find a company to hire us. A male student could find companies, but we couldn't find one. So after I failed three times, I didn't have a choice to go to a Japanese company so I just took the exam.
Catherine: So does that mean you passed on the fourth time?
Naomi: Yes, that’s right.
Catherine: Oh, what year was that?
Naomi: That was 2000.
Catherine: Wow I really am impressed, I’ve actually got some goosebumps like “Torihada“ because I haven’t heard anyone be so frank as you have to tell us that. The fact that you did that and continued to perhaps there wasn’t a choice, but it did actually drive you because there was no choice. So when you finished law school did you join the firm right away, or what happened after you finished law school and got the bar?
Naomi: I graduated from Hokkaido Law School, and I entered into the Japanese Training Institute for all lawyers as it was at that time and I joined Nishimura & Asahi in 2002.
Catherine: 2002. So the lawyers training Institute was the previous way that lawyers become lawyers by doing the training. Now things have changed a little bit, but did that course take around one to two years?
Naomi: Yes, my time was one and a half years.
Catherine: I see, and then Nishimura & Asahi are Japan's biggest law firm, right?
Naomi: Yes, now it’s the biggest.
Catherine: You joined them by design did you? Was your goal to work for them or did you send your applications to various law firms? How did you get that job?
Naomi: When I was a Hokkaido university student, I had a chance to do an internship at Nishimura & Asahi, it was 1999.
Catherine: Aha, yes.
Naomi: It was amazing because, before that I didn't know what lawyers do, especially, I didn't know about M&A. So when I worked at Nishimura & Asahi I very much wanted to join that firm, so I wrote them a letter, also I knew lawyers at Nishimura & Asahi. I applied to other firms, but I really wanted to join Nishimura & Asahi.
Catherine: So you really wanted to join them.
Naomi: Yes.
Catherine: And it sounds like it wasn't very important for them that you had not passed the bar exam several times, that didn't matter. What mattered was that you did pass and wanted to be a lawyer, is that right?
Naomi: Yes, maybe.
Catherine: Because, this is another story, Naomi, that a lot of people who are listening and in fact me might think that in order to join Nishimura & Asahi here, you have to pass the bar the first time you have to be a certain kind of person. But I really liked the fact that Nishimura & Asahi and perhaps other big law firms are more broadly thinking than what we think ourselves and they took you on. I think that's a fantastic story, I really do.
Naomi: Yes, I hope so.
Catherine: I think it's a great inspiration for people who are going to listen. And during your time at Nishimura & Asahi, is that when you were able to go to the US and start studying there as well?
Naomi: First I worked at Nishimura & Asahi from 2000 to 2008 and usually if you worked there for five years you can go to the US, they are the sponsors and pay your tuition. So I went to Harvard Law School in 2008.
Catherine: Yeah. How do you get chosen to go to Harvard Law School? Because it's the top law school, right? I hope there are people who have gone to Yale or others who will be listening and maybe saying no, yeah, theirs are the top, but it is of course well-renowned. How did you get to land at Harvard?
Naomi: I applied to maybe 10 law schools.
Catherine: Oh.
Naomi: We have to write a personal statement and at first I was writing about my job in M&A and I want to study Corporate Law at Harvard Law School, and I will be coming back to Japan to continue to practice law. That was the kind of thing I first wrote.
Catherine: Right.
Naomi: Then my boss who was a partner in the firm told me, this is the same old thing that all applicants write, you should write something different. So I was thinking, oh, when I was a junior high school student, I was thinking about women's situation like my mom. I was thinking about involving maybe local administration city and maybe politicians. So I changed my personal statement and I wrote about how I like to work for women, that kind of thing. I rewrote my personal statement and I think maybe that was good.
Catherine: I definitely think it was good. How incredible and the partner, are you still in touch with him?
Naomi: Yes, he was a managing partner at Nishimura Asahi, and you mentioned the interview in Bengoshi.com.
Catherine: Yes, I did.
Naomi: So I referred to him in the interview, I emailed him to make sure it was okay and he said yes.
Catherine: That is really great. And how thoughtful of him to have thought about you and to think that the personal statement needed to be different and stand out. Oh my goodness, it sure did, obviously. So you were in the US around the time that Barack Obama became president for his first term. So what was that like for you being there at that time, and how did that inspire you? Seeing Obama become president or other things that were happening at that time?
Naomi: That experience changed my life because at that time in 2008 young students at Harvard Law School were very politically active. They made phone calls and had meetings about Barack Obama. I was so surprised because in Japan young people are not interested in politics. At Harvard Law School, they are so active and they said we should do something to change the world, and I saw that and decided I should be part of it.
Catherine: Right, so you already thought that in 2000 when you were a 14 year old junior high school student and here you are again, seeing this inspiration from the students who were very active in politics and thought you've got to change the world again. So you're getting the same feeling and thinking, coming through your life. Then after that study at Harvard, you didn't come right back to Japan. Did you stay in the US for a while?
Naomi: Yes. I was seconded to Debevoise & Plimpton in New York City.
Catherine: Right.
Naomi: Nishimura sent me to Debevoise & Plimpton and it was a great experience.
Catherine: What did you do there? What kind of law were you doing, and your expertise was in what kind of area? Was it the M&A area or somewhere else?
Naomi: Yes, M&A. I worked with Japanese clients.
Catherine: Japanese clients who were in the US or had business back in Japan.
Naomi: Yes Japanese clients in Japan.
Catherine: That time at the firm was quite significant I believe for you to start your path to run for mayor when you came back to Japan because you had some experience with one of your US male colleagues, what some people these days call “a mic drop moment”, right? One of your US colleagues did something that, again, inspired you to think about going for mayor.
Naomi: At Debevoise, one of my coworkers who was a male American lawyer told me he was going to take paternity leave for a year. At the time I was so surprised because in Japan I had not heard of any male lawyers or employees taking paternity leave. So I first considered the Japanese women's situation then I did some research and I found out almost 60% of women quit their job after having children because they could not find a nursery to take care of them. So I thought how unfair that was for the mothers in Japan who had to quit their jobs.
Catherine: Right.
Naomi: Yeah so that’s when I first realised that issue, that Japanese women had to make the choice of job or children.
Catherine: So you had the surprise that a male colleague in the states was taking paternity leave and made you think about Japan and its situation. So that started you to think about how you could do more change actively, and what sort of action did you take then?
Naomi: Yes, so I wanted to change that situation and I realised that the mayor had the power to decide how many nurseries you could have in your city. So I thought I should run for mayor and I wrote letters to some politicians.
Catherine: There you go, you're writing more letters. Like you wrote letters to the law schools, now you're writing letters again, never underestimate the power of writing a letter. So even though your colleague took paternity leave, it's one thing to notice that, but it's really so much more doing so much more to write letters. What made you think I'm going to write letters? How did you know who to write to from the US?
Naomi: I didn’t know any politicians from my prefecture so I had to do some research and then I wrote letters to politicians from my city of Otsu and Shiga Prefecture.
Catherine: I see. So you were writing your letters, but you had to come back to Japan. Did you come back to the firm first before doing anything else? Did you have to negotiate, leaving the firm to go and run for mayor? Tell us about that part of your story.
Naomi: Yes I was seconded to Debevoise & Plimpton from 2009 to 2010 and I was thinking about running for mayor, but I couldn't decide so I needed more time. At the time I wanted to stay in New York so I went to Columbia University. It wasn’t an MBA it was as a visiting scholar at Columbia Business School, so I went there for one year, from 2010 to 2011. I went back to Japan for two weeks and I met with some politicians to whom I had written letters. One of them said to me that I need to know about running a campaign and I should volunteer here. In Japan, we have a local election every four years and that election was in April and May 2011.
Catherine: Yes.
Naomi: So I came back to Japan in March 2011, after the earthquake I helped by volunteering for some local politicians.
Catherine: I see, so you volunteer and help support those politicians and then people get used to you and you also get to see some of the behind the scenes system.
Naomi: Yeah, that's right, and it was disappointing.
Catherine: Why was that?
Naomi: Because in the US, even young people are very active and they are very motivated, but in Japan, when our candidate made a speech people were not interested. They made a speech at a station, but no one stopped, they just walked past. They didn't listen to what they said and I was disappointed. I found out that people are not interested in politics, especially our young people. So I learned that I could lose and I’m not sure what I should do.
Catherine: It's interesting you say that. I often see people doing their campaign outside the station, and it's really almost the worst place because people are trying to get to work or somewhere else very quickly, so they have no time to stop and listen. I think of New Zealand politicians, they are in the neighborhood or they are in locations where people are relaxing and have time to stop. So it might be a thing that needs to change in Japan on that scale. So you're going from this feeling frustrated and still want to become a mayor, so what changes for you?
Naomi: So I thought about it off and on for a year and I was thinking I shouldn't do this because young people are not interested. But one day my friend told me two things. I was tired of thinking because I had been thinking for one year. Then he said you are lucky because you have choices in the world, few people have a choice, many people can’t choose where to reap the kind of joy you have. So you have choices and you are lucky, you should think about it. So I was relieved because I was tired of thinking.
Another friend told me you should do what only you can do. He was also a corporate lawyer and he said at the big law firm you are just one of many, you can of course work, but other people can take over your job when you leave. As a mayor there is only one, so you should do what only you can do. Also, some people Japanese politicians said, “You are too young, you have no experience”. But my friend said, “Because you are young and because you are a woman you can make a difference”. So that advice made me decide to run for mayor.
Catherine: That's amazing. You had people who were, maybe they were mentors or not really mentors, but people who could see the possibility of you becoming mayor and how you could change things. They helped you with these amazing inspirational words like, you are lucky and do what only you can do, I think that is incredible. Did that change you then after maybe a little bit more thinking you then decided to act and run for mayor?
Naomi: Yes, I went back to Japan in July 2011. First I went back to Nishimura & Asahi and I worked there, but I was still thinking about running for mayor, and I quit Nishimura & Asahi in November. I ran for mayor and I did my campaign for three months, I think that’s quite short, and I was elected in January 2012.
Catherine: Yay that's amazing, so incredible. I wish I'd known you around that time to see what was happening. But when you were campaigning, it wasn't always smooth.There were some people who I heard from you verbally, and even physically abused you and gave you such a backlash, but you kept going. Can you tell me a little bit about that?
Naomi: Yes I ran for mayor in 2011, also the mayor’s term is four years, so I ran again. So the first time, a man kicked me when I was at the station. I was handing out my flyers and he complained about my high school. I don't know why it's a problem, it doesn't make sense, and he kicked me.
Catherine: Unbelievable.
Naomi: Also another day a man came up to me and he said, ”You are bad, you don't listen to us”. It was my second term, so he knew me and he criticized me because I think he expected women to follow men, that kind of thing. So he was saying you are very bad and you should listen to old men. Yeah, sometimes it happens.
Catherine: Yes, some people do react negatively in some way, or they have something else going on in their lives as well. But when you joined Otsu city as the mayor, you did two terms, but during those terms, how was it inside the organization? Because I believe the mayors before you were 70 to 80 year old men, you were quite different coming in. Can you tell us any stories that happened during that time, your eight years there, anything that stands out for you?
Naomi: So first we had a lot of arguments. For example, one day I had a meeting with my subordinate, but all of them are older than me and most of them are men and they were 55 or 59 years old because all the city employees are the same as traditional Japanese company employees and they have the lifetime employment system. One day I had a meeting with the employees and I was trying to convince them to adopt one of my policies and one of the managers got so mad he shouted, punched the desk, and then left slamming the door loudly. Yeah, I was so surprised.
Catherine: Yes if you did that in corporate Japan you'd probably be, maybe not dismissed, but something would happen if that happened inside a corporate organization, they wouldn't stand for that kind of behavior. So he slammed the desk and punched the desk, and slammed the door leaving the room. Did he change after that, or people like him, did they come to accept you? Could you still have your heated discussions, but they were very good discussions, and they became more healthy, how did it go after that?
Naomi: I think it changed, not everyone, but I had more meetings with employees and some of them understood me, and also I understood what they think. So in my second term, it got much better.
Catherine: How did you use your lawyer skills to execute your role as a mayor? Is there something you learned, or some strength or skill as a lawyer that helped you to be a really good mayor?
Naomi: Yeah, lawyer's skills helped me a lot because I'm not a specialist in administrative law, but I think city hall is like a company. So we have to serve our citizens, just as a corporation has to serve their shareholders. So I always think about how we have the responsibility to our citizens and in my city, we had a case of bullying at our junior high school, a student committed suicide after being bullied. It happened before I was elected, but after I was elected, I started an investigation about the bullying. Because I was a lawyer, I knew that an independent committee was needed.
Catherine: Yes, and also that feeling of justice.
Naomi: Yes.
Catherine: Needing to have justice for the family and the victim and try and resolve things. You also used that lawyer skill, I think, to make those changes that you talked about that came to your mind way back when you were 14, in your family when your mom had to give up her role to look after the children. Also that incident in America where you were also inspired by the man who took paternity leave. So you changed things in Otsu didn't you, you changed things with the childcare facilities. Tell us about that story? It's an amazing story.
Naomi: Thank you. So that was my motivation to run for mayor, I wanted to change the situation of Japanese women. Over eight years I built 54 nurseries for 3000 children.
Catherine: 54 nurseries for 3000 children.
Naomi: Yes over eight years.
Catherine: Wow.
Naomi: Before that in Japan we had what they call a “waiting child” which means they are waiting to get into a nursery. So if you can't find a nursery the mother has to quit her job.
Catherine: It's a big problem.
Naomi: Yes it was a big problem. So in my city, there were waiting children and now we have built 54 nurseries, there are no more waiting children. As a result, the number of working mothers who have children under five years old has increased by 70%.
Catherine: 70, seven zero.
Naomi: Yes seven zero.
Catherine: Wow. Incredible.
Naomi: So that was what I wanted to do, but also the population of Otsu city has increased because young couples with children move to Otsu because they can find nurseries.
Catherine: Yes it's an attractive place for people to go to because of what you had achieved and created for them. So let's go and live in Otsu, whereas many may not have thought about that before you created a reason for them to move to the town.
Naomi: Yeah, that's right. So for eight years I did that, and I felt that I had achieved my goal, so I didn't run for mayor again.
Catherine: During that time, with the other case you mentioned, did the investigation change things as well?
Naomi: I did that investigation for the junior high school student. Before that, all over Japan, we have the education board, but the education board didn't investigate the suicide cases. But after that, we have an independent investigation committee to investigate bullying cases. So I think it was a big change.
Catherine: Yeah. If you were to repeat that eight years again, is there something you would do differently or would you do exactly what you did when you were there?
Naomi: Yes, exactly what I did.
Catherine: Great, I'm really glad to hear that.
Naomi: Yes because I think citizens, not me, citizens decide if I was good or not, but I did my best.
Catherine: Would you ever consider running for another public service role like the central government or are you more attracted to bottom up change in Japan? We're going to talk about your adventure in your new entrepreneurial business, but I wondered as I was preparing for this if you had thought about running for a central government role?
Naomi: No, I will not run for any position in central government. I wanted to be a mayor to improve the situation for women and I think I did that by improving the childcare system. It's just the start and I will keep working for women, but not as a politician.
Catherine: Yes that's right you wanted to change things, that was your goal. It wasn't to become a mayor, but the mayor was the vehicle, the way in which you could make that change. That's an incredible point to make. Is there a female mayors club or alumni that you belong to, or how are you supporting other women to rise to that mayoral role? You mentioned the new person who is now the youngest, did you provide any help in that person's success?
Naomi: Yes there is a Female Mayors Association, but there are very few female mayors. After I stepped down young, a female politician who is a city councilor, asked me to present a lecture for them. So I'm going to do some lectures for young female city councilors.
Catherine: Oh, that's great and you can inspire them. Maybe one or two will decide to do something as well, make a change and become a mayor in order to do the change. So that's great to hear. I want to now move on from where you were as mayor, and I wanted to spend time on that story because it really is inspirational and really amazing what you've told us.
But now you are working back as a lawyer in a firm, and you are thinking about entrepreneurship. How has that transition been, back from being a mayor into the law firm as a partner and you were at Miura & Partners, how has that change been and how have your clients reacted to you as a former mayor of a city?
Naomi: I stepped down in January 2020 and I planned to travel all over the world, but I couldn’t do that due to COVID-19. So I was at home thinking about what to do and decided first to take the California bar exam.
Catherine: You took the California bar last year?
Naomi: Yeah, last year because I had to stay home, I couldn't go anywhere. One reason is as a mayor, I introduced some new technologies, like self driving bus, drones, and AI. I promoted the Smart City project, and I am very interested in changing our citizen’s lives by using new technology. So I studied for the California bar exam because I'm very interested in Silicon Valley. After I took the bar exam, I joined Miura & Partners and now I am focusing on the Smart City project and a public-private partnership. When I was mayor I had some experience with public-private partnerships. I am also supporting startups.
Catherine: Yeah, so one of my questions was what was your expertise and what are you focusing on? You've just told me about Smart City projects and I know of one other lawyer in Japan who's doing similar, but it's really a niche area. So is the public-private partnership, I think that's a rather niche area as well for you to focus in. What do you love most about your job then?
Naomi: Yeah, I love Smart City and public-private partnerships because I have experience as a mayor, it’s not only about the law. Based on my experiences I can give other advice to clients, so I'm very interested and excited.
Catherine: Yes, I'm going to talk about your new company in a moment, but I also know that you have an outside board role as well as being a partner in a firm. Tell us about that role? I don't know much about it, so I'd love to know how you got that role and what it is that lawyers do to bring their skills to the boardroom table?
Naomi: Yes, now I serve as an outside director at both V-Cube and SoftBank. V-Cube is a webinar company and SoftBank is a cell phone and other IT company. I started with V-Cube last year and I have just started at SoftBank.
Catherine: Congratulations. Were you just voted in at the last shareholder’s meeting?
Naomi: Yes, the shareholder’s meeting in June.
Catherine: Wow. Congratulations!
Naomi: Thank you. I think both are very important jobs. In Japan, we need more female directors, at the moment 35% of female directors are actually lawyers.
Catherine: Really 35% of female directors in Japan are lawyers.
Naomi: Yes, because lawyers have expertise in governance. But also the other reason is the company has to find female directors, but they can't find female director candidates within their company because there are very few female managers. So they choose a lawyer. I served as an outside director and I like technology and innovation. I'm not a trained engineer but I like to be part of the movement to use technology to change the world. I also like to empower female employees at the company. For example, I had lectures and meetings with female employees. So that's what I can do.
Catherine: Are you having the lectures at V-Cube and SoftBank, or are you doing that in various companies? People are asking you to come and do the lecture.
Naomi: Actually I did them as a lawyer but also I did it at V-Cube for some Japanese companies who have some training for female employees.
Catherine: Oh, that's great. I am interested because we're going to talk shortly about this more, but this excuse in a way, that there are not enough candidates in the company to become directors because there are no managers who are women. So it really starts further back in the process by having more women employed.
So let's go to this exciting new project of yours, which is OnBoard, a company that you set up. Tell me about this project and congratulations. I know your goal is to promote women on boards and into managerial positions. I really think this is a magnificent goal because, in previous times when I've listened to you, you've told me about the World Economic Forum Global Gender Gap Report, that around 5% of board members in Japan are women in 2020, that's only 5%. Then I think that managers in companies who were women, the percentage that you said previously were 12%, just 12%. Then I also heard you mention that in 2016, of board members who were women was 3%. So it has doubled in four years, but the Japanese score of female board members compared to other countries is still very low.
And I'm going to cite you again, the figures that you told us last time when I listened to you, France had 42%, Australia I picked out at 33%. You talked about Germany and New Zealand, they're exactly the same around 30%, the UK is 24%, and the US 60%. Tell us more about this program and gosh, how many people are doing it and how many lawyers, and what are the goals? Tell us a lot about this project. I really want our listeners to hear.
Naomi: Thank you. So besides practicing law, I was thinking as a mayor, I improved the childcare system, but it's just the start. So now I was wondering, are women in the same position as a man in a company? Do women get the same salary as men? The answer of course is no. So my next goal as an entrepreneur is to promote more women being on the board. So I started my own company called OnBoard with my partner Kaori Matsuzawa who is also a partner at Miura & Partners. As you mentioned, Japan is very much behind, in July last year there were only 6% of female board members in Japan.
Catherine: Yes.
Naomi: We are so far behind, but now we have some movement. The Tokyo Stock Exchange has amended the Corporate Governance Code, which now requires a diversified board, including women and foreigners. Also, the Japanese government has plans. The Japanese government’s fifth gender equality basic plan called for directors and statutory auditors at the first-rate Tokyo Stock Exchange listed companies to be at least 12% female by 2022. Also, Keidanren, Japan's Primary Business Federation has called for 30% percent female representation among board members by 2030. So now we have movement and Japanese companies have pressure from their investors and understand they have to increase the number of female directors.
What we need to do now is train the candidates and we have started our seminars in May. We have 60 people who joined our seminar, half of them are lawyers and the other half are corporate executives. We had lectures about the legal aspect, accounting, and a female director talked about her experience. We also had other directors, including males, talk about what an outside director should do. Then we introduced some female candidates to some Japanese companies. So we have just started, but more people than we expected are interested in our work.
Catherine: That's amazing, so you said 60 people are in this first program. How many programs will you have each year? Do you hope to hold more than one this year, or would the second one be in 2022?
Naomi: This year we have a seminar now, and we plan to have another seminar this year, maybe next year we will have more.
Catherine: So if someone is just hearing about this program Naomi, can they join part way through or should they wait and do another round? What's your advice for that?
Naomi: You can join now. We have recordings so you can watch our recording, but also you can start in the Fall, but I think it will be a bit different from this basic seminar, you can contact OnBoard.
Catherine: Sure sounds good. You mentioned you are also doing introductions. Is that the matching service I heard you talk about in another session, is that matching candidates to companies? How does that work?
Naomi: Some companies have already asked us to find a candidate but we are more focused on Start-ups. There are some job search firms that are already recruiting people for a job. But for startups, they are always looking for a candidate and there are some very famous lawyer candidates but they may already have three or four positions as outside directors. So we are focusing on the younger generation, the thirties or forties generation, to match up a younger female lawyer to the Start-ups.
Catherine: Okay, that's really nice because I think it's not that the Start-ups don't want older lawyers, but you're also bringing up another generation of young lawyers who can contribute to young Start-ups as well. So that seems like a nice match to have. Is it working well?
Naomi: Yes, now some startups have asked us to find a candidate, especially if we have a lawyer candidate, so we are working very hard.
Catherine: I'm excited to hear that. What would you like to accomplish in the next 12 months for this program?
Naomi: We will do more seminars. People are enjoying this seminar and some people couldn't join, so we will have a second seminar, maybe even a third and fourth seminar. We are trying to match more candidates to companies. In Japan most companies have their shareholders meeting in June, so by next June, we will be doing more matching,
Catherine: Wonderful. How about the next five years? Have you seen a vision for you taking this program beyond now and thinking about five years, or do you want to take your time and see how it develops?
Naomi: Not in five years, but in 10 years?
Catherine: 10 years, okay.
Naomi: Yes in 10 years. Right now only 6% of directors are female. Keidanren has said they want to have 30% in 2030, so we need 10,000 female directors in 10 years. So every year that means we will need 1,000 more. In five years we will need 5,000 female candidates, so I have to work very hard.
Catherine: Ooh, that's a massive assignment for you, I hope we can all help you there. About 10,000 female directors by 2030 to reach Keidanren's target. Incredible, I think we can do it, we have to put our mind to it, but it sounds big right now. If it was 30%, that would take Japan up to the levels of Germany and New Zealand where they are now. So that's interesting to think about isn't it, that it would still take 10 years to get to the percentage where two other countries are already. What can we learn from other countries? Perhaps you could bring in people from other countries, female directors to give seminars and lectures as well. How to change by the influence from outside of Japan.
Naomi: Yes, that’s important, maybe you should teach us.
Catherine: I can teach anything if you'd like that, sure.
Naomi: Thank you. Yes, because outside Japan is very different, they are very advanced. Companies in France and now in the State of California, have laws that ensure they have to have minority directors on their boards. Also, Nasdaq has rules for the companies that list with them. But now the Tokyo Stock Exchange has a corporate governance code and Japanese companies have changed because of foreign investors. We should learn from foreign countries and their systems. Also, we need more foreign directors, the Corporate Governance Code says your boards should be diverse, including women, foreigners, and young people so I think we need more foreigners too.
Catherine: Exactly. So if I concentrate on women lawyers becoming board members, what can women lawyers contribute to boards?
Naomi: One way is their legal skill, for example, compliance and M&A, some companies expect the legal skill. I think the board members in total need to have a mixed skill matrix, so not only for female directors, but for lawyers in general, companies expect our skill and it's very important. Also I think some people have different opinions, but female directors sometimes have different opinions from men. For example, for me, I try to ask about the number of female managers because I think each company could have more female managers. So I am trying to focus on empowering women. I think a female lawyer can do that kind of thing.
Catherine: Okay, yes. A different kind of approach to maybe other directors who may not ask those questions, and of course, bringing those legal skills. That's something that we have that really just becomes part of us, so we don't always see that it's special, but it really is special and useful for a board to have those skills from an outside or internal director. That's really amazing. I would love to keep talking Naomi, but we have covered a lot of the topic and I know that people who want to hear more will find ways of following you and connecting with you. Let's change gears a little bit, I would just love to hear about your routine. Usually I ask my guests to tell us about what guiding routines they have at the end of the day and the beginning of the day. How do you start and finish your day, Naomi?
Naomi: I'm not good at getting out of bed, I'm not a morning person so I’m much better at working at night.
Catherine: Do you have any kind of routine that starts you off? You're in Otsu now, so is there probably more family time and taking your dog for a walk and things like that you fit in during your day?
Naomi: I used to walk with my dog in the evening, but he's very old now, almost 18, so it's too hard to walk outside in the evening. But I do enjoy my time with Ron, that's his name.
Catherine: Ron. Ron. How did you come up with the name, Ron?
Naomi: We didn't name him, after I was elected as mayor, I adopted him.
Catherine: Oh, I see.
Naomi: He was in the city dog shelter, and we adopted him.
Catherine: Lovely. I love that story. Oh, that's so wonderful. Do you have a word of the year or a theme that guides you?
Naomi: Yes. As I told you, what my friend said to me, “You should do what only you can do”.
Catherine: You should do what only you can do. That is amazing. So that's been what guides you all the time now?
Naomi: Yes, I'm still thinking about it. For example, my company OnBoard, that is what only I can do, because I am a lawyer and I was the mayor and I have been empowering women. So I think that is my word.
Catherine: Wonderful, and if you could swap jobs with somebody for a day or a week, is there anyone you would want to change jobs with?
Naomi: Oh, maybe I would be a singer, I don't know.
Catherine: Oh, really?
Naomi: Because I'm very bad at singing. Even if I go to karaoke I never sing.
Catherine: Right, a singer.
Naomi: Yes it would be great If I could sing.
Catherine: Wonderful. Have you received a compliment recently from someone that you smile about in private? So it's something someone said to you that was nice that you'd maybe not talk about out loud, but when you're back in your room and you think about it, is there something like that someone said to you that makes you smile?
Naomi: Oh, I'm sorry. I don't remember.
Catherine: Hopefully from what I've told you today, with some of the praise I've given you, that you will, later on, reflect and smile about that. I think you're an amazing person. So how about advice that you've received, the best advice? Sounds like it would be perhaps what you've already told us from some of your people that are around you, is that the best advice that you've received and maybe you've got the worst piece of advice that you received that you could tell us?
Naomi: Yeah. So the best advice is what I have said already. Yeah, I was thinking about my choices. My friend told me you are lucky, when I was tired of thinking, but I'm lucky I have a choice. So still I'm thinking, sometimes I feel lost, I don't know what I should do, but at that time I remember I'm lucky, I have choices, I have freedom.
Catherine: That's very deep. And even with the goal that you've got you can often feel still lost and not sure what to do. I think in your case, it seems to me that you already want to know what your next goal is. What else can you achieve rather than not knowing what you want to do, it’s what can Naomi Koshi do next? Have you got some advice for young lawyers and students who are coming up the ranks, how they can think about their careers and their life?
Naomi: Yes. So I think each lawyer should have a specialty and the lawyer should do what they really want to do. I think making a difference is very important for lawyers because now the number of lawyers is increasing in Japan. There are some specialties in law and if you choose one and enjoy that work you can continue to do it. So I think speciality is very important.
Catherine: It's interesting because some people think they should just do what others are doing. So how do you find a specialty and how do you make a difference? Maybe that's what the lawyers listening who are young would think. So how do you encourage them to think of their speciality and how would you encourage them to think about how to make a difference?
Naomi: For me as a mayor, I liked introducing new technology because that changed people's lives. For example, when there is no bus to go to the mountain, if you have a self-driving car that changed people's lives. I liked that so I keep doing that, not as a mayor, but as a lawyer. So I have a very strong motivation in that area. Also for me the experience as a mayor made a difference. So for young lawyers, I think they should find what they like, what they are interested in and focus on that thing.
Catherine: Perfect. Naomi, is there anything we haven't covered today that you'd like to mention or anything you've said that you would like to emphasize again?
Naomi: I think what we have covered is perfect.
Catherine: Good.
Naomi: Thank you.
Catherine: All right. So let's finish out with the final, what I call super six, which is the quick fire round of six questions that I ask every guest as we wind up the interviews. So the first is of course, considering it's compliant and I could give you a million yen in cash in Japan. Where would you spend it, your favorite store or a destination or both of those things?
Naomi: So I would invest in my company OnBoard.
Catherine: That's a good answer. How about a book that you've read recently or you are reading, or maybe a podcast you've listened to that you recommend?
Naomi: I haven’t read a book recently, but I like Haruki Murakami, I like his novels.
Catherine: He did Norwegian Wood and many other publications, didn't he? Ah, okay. What about if you were stuck on a desert island and you had to take one person, one item and one food, what would they be? Who are they?
Naomi: My dog
Catherine: Yay.
Naomi: Ron.
Catherine: Ron, of course.
Naomi: Yes, but I'm not sure he could go there because now he's too old.
Catherine: But this is a system that works no matter what, there's magic. You're just there. What would you take with you and what food?
Naomi: Yes. I would like vegetables.
Catherine: Keeping healthy. Okay, good. Is there someone famous that you've met before or would love to meet a celebrity?
Naomi: She's not famous, but I want to meet my grandmother again. But I will not meet her.
Catherine: Yeah. How old was she when she passed away?
Naomi: It was 2001 and she was 97.
Catherine: 97! Yes, I bet you want to meet her again, I'm sure. What do you have on your bedside cabinet? Do you have a photo of your grandmother?
Naomi: No, I haven't. I actually don't have anything, but we have my grandmother's pictures in my house.
Catherine: Exactly. And tell me something then about you that nobody else knows.
Naomi: Now I'm very nervous because I am speaking in English. When I make a speech in Japanese, I'm confident, I'm not nervous. But when I have to speak English I'm always nervous.
Catherine: You do not sound nervous and I'm sure everyone's going, she doesn't sound nervous, but you don't, maybe you feel it, but you don't sound it Naomi. So thank you Naomi for sharing so much of your story and telling us about your entrepreneurial lawyering venture, sharing your tips with the young lawyers. It really has been great to connect with you in this way. Thank you so much.
Naomi: Thank you so much.
Catherine: So how can people connect with you? Could we do that through your website or what would be a good place to connect with you?
Naomi: Yes, the website is good. Mira & Partners have a site, also OnBoard KK has a website.
Catherine: Great. We will put that in the show notes. So anyone who is interested in connecting and learning more from you can find out how to get in touch with you, is that okay if they reach out to you through your website?
Naomi: Yes.
Catherine: Great, thank you. I'd like to finish up there today and we've had this fantastic conversation about your fascinating journey, where you're really modeling for lawyers at all stages of their career. That there's not just one way to lead a lawyer's life, but many ways. And you've given us the evidence that it's possible for each and every one of us to do many things in our studies, our career and our life, and to really make a change, if we decide to do that. You've shown several times through our conversation that you had a goal and you succeeded in it, and now you're moving to your next goal.
I really believe you're a female leader who is showing us that if we, each and every one of us set our mind to it, we can achieve our aspirations. I'm so grateful for you coming on and being my eighth guest in this first season of Lawyer On Air, out of a total of 10. So two more to go. I really thank you for sharing your journey and for my listeners, please do LIKE this episode, subscribe to Lawyer On Air and drop us a short review because that really does help us get out on the airwaves.
You can also actually lodge a voicemail on my webpage right now. I love hearing actual voices from guests. So please go ahead, share this episode with someone you think will enjoy listening to it and be inspired to live a wonderful lawyer lady life. That's all for now. Thank you Naomi.
Naomi: Thank you Catherine.
Catherine: Thanks everyone. We'll see you in the next episode. Cheers. Kampai and bye for now.
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