Full transcript follows.

Becoming CEO of an international organisation is probably not on young lawyer’s minds as they graduate from law school and find their first law job. Mitsuru Claire Chino shares with us her path from working in a law firm to General Counsel to CEO. She has some absolute nuggets of wisdom that you won’t want to miss on how she sees that anyone can be their best, and it might surprise you some of the people she looks up to! 

If you enjoyed this episode and it inspired you in some way, we’d love to hear about it and know your biggest takeaway. Head over to Apple Podcasts to leave a review and we’d love it if you would leave us a message here!

In this episode you’ll hear:

• How Claire came to be in the law and dealing with challenges in her early years as an associate were

• Why Claire chose to leave private practice to work  in house despite leaving behind a high salary and  glamor 

• Mentors and sponsors who helped Claire to leverage her skills as a lawyer and how to find  your own mentors and sponsors

• What to look for when applying for General Counsel positions

• Why lawyers make great CEOs

• The magical things that happen when brilliant minds come together across disciplines 

• Her favourite books and other fun facts 

About Claire

Claire is Managing Executive Officer of ITOCHU Corporation, a Fortune Global 500 company headquartered in Japan, and President & CEO of ITOCHU International Inc., a subsidiary of ITOCHU  in New York, overseeing North America.

Before assuming her position in New York, he was General Counsel of  ITOCHU, and prior to that, a partner with an international law firm.

In 2013, Claire became the first female executive officer of any major trading company in Japan.

Claire has received several recognitions, including from the World Economic Forum (Young Global Leader), Yale University (Yale World Fellow), Asia Society (Asia 21) and the U.S. Japan Foundation (USJLP Fellow). 

Claire has also been recognized in the legal community as a “Top 25 In-House Counsel in Asia” (Asia Legal Business), “Asia Pacific’s Innovative Lawyer” (Financial Times), and “FT Global General Counsel 30” (Financial Times), and has received a “Transformative Leader” award (Inside Counsel). In 2018, the California Lawyers Association recognized her as the 8th Annual Warren M. Christopher International Lawyer of the Year.

Most recently, she became the recipient of the Smith Medal from Smith College.

She is a graduate of Smith College (B.A. cum laude) and Cornell Law School (J.D.), where

she serves on the advisory board. She is a classically trained singer and gives solo performances from time to time.

Connect with Claire

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mitsuru-claire-chino-10ba6930/ 

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/login/?next=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Fitochuinternational%2F

Links

On Borrowed Time by Graham Hall https://www.amazon.co.jp/Borrowed-Time-Graeme-Hall/dp/1527271374 

Connect with Catherine 

Linked In https://www.linkedin.com/in/oconnellcatherine/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lawyeronair

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/catherine.oconnell.148

Twitter: https://twitter.com/oconnelllawyer 

Transcript

Catherine: Hi, everyone. Welcome to the second episode in season two of Lawyer on Air. I'm Catherine O'Connell. Today, I am joined by Mitsuru Claire Chino, who is the managing executive officer of Itochu Corporation, a fortune global 500 company headquartered in Japan. 

She is also president and CEO of Itochu International, Inc. a subsidiary of Itochu in New York, overseeing North America. Claire has been based in New York the past four and a half years. Before assuming her position in New York, she was general counsel of Itochu. And prior to that, a partner with an international law firm. In 2013 Claire got into the history books, becoming the first female executive officer of any major trading company in Japan.

She was also the youngest employee to hold such a high ranking position in a major trading house. Claire was born in the Netherlands, had some time in London, and grew up in Japan, and later moved to Los Angeles. And then she came back to Tokyo where I think it was where I met Claire, I recall, at a foreign women's lawyers association event. Claire has received several recognitions, including from the World Economic Forum as a global leadership fellow and a young global leader, from Yale University as Yale World Fellow, from Asia Society, Asia 21, and from the US Japan Foundation as a US JLP Fellow. Not unsurprisingly, Claire has also been recognized in the legal community as a top 25 in-house counsel in Asia by Asia Legal Business, Asia Pacific’s innovative lawyer by the Financial Times, and the FT also recognized Claire as FT global general counsel 30.

And she also received a transformative leader award from inside counsel. In 2018, the California lawyers Association recognized Claire as the eighth annual Warren M Christopher international lawyer of the year. And most recently she became the recipient of the Smith Medal from Smith College. Claire is a graduate of Smith College with a BA Cum Laude and received a JD from Cornell Law School, where she now serves on their advisory.

If you know Claire, then you know that she is a classically trained singer and gives solo performances from time to time. I've had the pleasure of seeing Claire singing and I hope to have that chance again, after the pandemic. Claire also recently wrote a chapter in Rika Nakazawa’s book; Dear Chairwoman.

And if you have not already gone and bought that book, I hope you do because Claire touches upon the topics we will also go into further today. Claire is an example of how you can get really high up in your career as a lawyer, all the way up to leading a global corporation and executing at the highest levels yet still remain grounded and humble.

I am very pleased to be able to bring Mitsuru Claire Chino to you as my guest today. Claire, welcome to the show. 

Claire: Thank you so much, Catherine, for such a kind introduction. It's great to hear your voice. 

Catherine: Wonderful to hear you and to see you again. It's just been great. And today we're going to be talking about lots of topics, your early days in the Netherlands and London and time in the US studying and working.

What brought you into the law, landing that trailblazing position at Itochu and your transition to your CEO role. I'd also like to talk about mentoring and sponsors, your passion for singing, and I'd love you to share your nuggets of guidance for young lawyers and what they should be thinking about in their careers, in law and beyond.

How does that sound? 

Claire: That sounds fantastic. And I guess I'm not young anymore.

Catherine: I just said you were cause I saw you, you're ageless. You're ageless. We are young at heart as well. I have to say.

Claire: That's correct. Yes. 

Catherine: Correct. And today we're talking online Claire as you are in New York in the early morning, and I'm here in the evening and Tokyo, and I guess if we were meeting up in person, where do you think we would be?

Do you have a favorite wine bar or cafe or restaurant that you would love to go to either there or here and what would be your choice of beverage off the menu? 

Claire: So I'm actually very excited that New York City is coming back. As I'm talking to you right now, I'm actually looking at the Hudson River, but the other day they were actually filming the sequel to Sex and the City right in front of my office.

So of course that led me to go back and binge watch all those Sex and the City episodes. And I realized for the first time that Carrie Bradshaw is really into cosmopolitans, the cocktail. So one of the things that I have been doing recently is going around actually looking for bars that would serve good cosmos.

So next time, you're in the city, Catherine, that's what I would like to be drinking with you. And hopefully by then I can find a really nice elegant hotel bar in New York.

Catherine: Wow. I cannot wait for that. And yes, I remember watching those old episodes and you've got me thinking I'm going to have to go back and look at them as well.

They had beautiful martini glasses, didn't they? And they looked so good. And I love the name. So yes, it's a deal. I'll do that with you anywhere, anytime, but hopefully in New York. And so you and I have known each other for a number of years now, and I remember being in utter awe of you when I met you at FWLA, the foreign women's lawyers association.

And I think at the time I was the membership lead and I'd come back to Tokyo to work for Hogan Lovells. And at our events I was on the reception desk, checking people in and you were a fairly regular attendee and speaker. Do you remember those days at FWLA? 

Claire: I really do. I do. It was actually one of the first organizations that I joined after coming back to Japan. So I spent time in San Francisco and then returned to Japan and it was really a wonderful organization to meet people, make great friends like yourself, and just stay connected and have this community outside of your regular work. And for me my regular work was Itochu Corporation, a very Japanese corporation, which I, of course liked very much.

But it was just so wonderful to be able to speak in English and have these powerful female lawyers. And it was a wonderful event. 

Catherine: And Foreign Woman's Lawyers Association was also inclusive. It was open to men and there were all kinds of different people who joined those, but it really was a community for foreign women lawyers and for Japanese lawyers coming together, foreign qualified lawyers as well.

Yeah, I remember that very well. And also I recall in 2012, when I came back to in-house for an APAC role, head of legal, I asked you to support my company's membership application for the Keiei Houryukai.

Claire: Oh my goodness. I’d forgotten about that.

Catherine: Do you remember that though? 

Claire: That was 2012? But I do remember that. Yes, very well.

Catherine: So you said yes, without hesitation and I thought, although you and I actually were around the same age at the time you had really, I felt like you were miles ahead in your career. I think back on that now, and think I was pretty bold to ask you to do that for me, but you do remember that, that time.

Claire: Of course it was actually, I didn't think that it was a bold move at all. It was a natural thing for you to become a member of the Houryukai. 

Catherine: Thank you very much. It's really such a pleasure today. So let's go back and talk about your early days and then get into your substantial career path. But in those early years, you were in the Netherlands and I don't think I knew the story about you, how you came to be born in the Netherlands.

Claire: So it was actually up to my parents, I suppose, my father was an international businessman and he was posted in Rotterdam in the Netherlands. And my parents were living there as newlyweds. And that's where I was born. I'll tell you an interesting story. So I think I may have been one of the first Asian, or certainly of Mongolian descent, babies born in the Netherlands or in Rotterdam at this particular hospital.

And you probably know this, but Japanese babies and Mongolian babies, they have this bluish mark on their butt.

Catherine: I have heard this 

Claire: Until they're about two or three. And of course, therefore we have this Japanese word … meaning blue two year old to describe somebody who is immature, but it's actually, it comes from a physical characteristic of this particular, I don't know if race is the correct word or not, but anyway, Japanese babies have these, oftentimes these bluish bruise things. I was the first baby born at the particular hospital with that bluish thingy. And the doctors got really excited because they'd never seen it in person, but only books.

And to my mother's dismay, the doctors went around showing my behind to the hospital staff. So that's how I was born in the Netherlands. 

Catherine: Wow. You started out with a bang. That is very funny. Wow. Famous from the get go. That's incredible. I always ask my guests what they wanted to be when they were a child.

So I'm curious to know what that was for you, what you wanted to be, and then how you got to be interested in being a lawyer. And I think your father's work may have had some influence there. 

Claire: Sure. So I always loved singing, but I also loved writing. When I was a child, I wanted to become a writer, a novelist.

At the age of 14, my father was posted to Los Angeles. And so we moved from Japan to Los Angeles. And it was really during the kind of like, war between the US and Japan. Just like I guess what we're now facing between the US and China, but anyway, and of course, being an executive with a car company my father was called as a witness to many lawsuits in Los Angeles.

And that really exposed me to the legal world in the US quite early on. That eventually led me to wanting to become an international lawyer, to maybe bridge the gap between US companies and Japanese companies. So that's how I ended up going to law school eventually.

Catherine: Did you hear the stories from your dad, or did you see him in action in the courts, or how did you get to know about him as a lawyer, as well as being your dad?

Claire: I met many of the lawyers who were representing my father's company. I would see them at parties. And I actually interned at one of these law firms when I was a college student. Lawyers were around me quite a bit. Which was actually something that I had never experienced in Japan prior to that. I think, living in Japan as an ordinary person, you don't come across lawyers that much. Catherine in your work, in my work, we come across lawyers all the time, but for an ordinary person, I don't think meeting a lawyer on a daily basis is something that is a common thing in Japan, but in Los Angeles, in the eighties, there were all these lawyers, international lawyers about me. I think the law became something very close to me. 

Catherine: I see. So then you did get very much interested in international law. And so your first law job was in fact, an international law firm, wasn’t it?

And what kind of work did you end up doing there and how did you progress through to partnership? 

Claire: So I don't know how many of the listeners remember what 1991 was like. Catherine, I'm sure you remember. I remember. The economy here in the United States wasn't very good. In fact, it was horrible. When the economy's bad, bankruptcy lawyers and litigation lawyers, they thrive.

And I graduated from law school in 1991 and I wanted to do more cross border M&A work, but that kind of work was very scarce. And so when I joined a firm called Graham and James which is now Squire Patton Boggs, they only had a position for me in the litigation department. And while Graham and James was an international law firm, the office that I joined in Newport beach California was very small. Of about 13, 14 lawyers, I was the only first-year associate in that office that year. And because they were so busy with bankruptcy and litigation cases, I was assigned to handle litigation. And because they were so busy, oftentimes I would actually go to the court by myself or to handle actually lawsuits by myself.

I tried probably two or three trials my first year. That was actually a very exciting experience, but I always wanted to turn to transactional law. So the opportunity came about when I was transferred from the Newport Beach office of Graham & James to Hong Kong, because at that time, Graham & James had a partnership with a firm called Deacons in Hong Kong.

It was Deacons Graham & James and I was seconded from Graham & James to Deacons. And in Hong Kong I started to do work for Japanese companies with presence in Hong Kong and China, including Itochu Hong Kong. So Itochu was a client of ours. And I got to work with Itochu for the first time in Hong Kong, which eventually led me to being seconded to Itochu Corporation’s legal department in Tokyo.

And then I finished the secondment, moved to San Francisco, and was made partner of Graham & James in San Francisco. 

Catherine: Oh, I see. So I didn't realize you had that stint with Itochu as a secondee.

Claire: It really helped me. I know that many law firms in Japan, have secondment programs with their clients both international and domestic.

I think it's a fantastic experience to be exposed to the clients early on. In my case, I was a fourth year associate and just having started transactional law, I really didn't really know how to draft things but, being inside Itochu I had to really tackle many issues. Of course not by myself. Oftentimes I would seek advice from the Tokyo office of Graham & James, and to have the backup, but I think it was a great experience to be exposed to the clients, to really know what they're concerned about, what they're expecting from lawyers, and also on things like billing. How they actually go through invoices from law firms, how they check time sheets, things like that.

So those experiences actually helped me when I returned to private practice later on. 

Catherine: Brilliant. It's one thing going on secondment, and I agree with everything you've said, secondments are like gold, really, and I think everyone who has a chance should try. So it's one thing to go on secondment, but actually to join that company as an employee is another thing.

And so I believe you then did, around, is it February 2000? You did actually join Itochu. And is that by invitation from them? How did that go about that you got to join them eventually as an employee? 

Claire: I became partner of Graham & James in January of 99, I believe. And right after that the firm started having merger discussions with other firms. And Graham & James was a law firm that I spent my summers with. I was a summer associate there. I never really thought about any other law firm than Graham & James. And I really liked the Graham & James culture. I wasn't so sure what the firm culture was going to be like after the merger and also living in San Francisco, it's a great city, but by that time, all my family members had returned to Japan.

So I was looking for ways to get back to Japan. And that's when Itochu called me and said, would you like to come join us? So it was a great opportunity for me to move from San Francisco back to Tokyo and into the legal department of Itochu. 

Catherine: Wow. And did you imagine you would stay with them for what is it, 17years now?

Claire: No, I didn't.

In fact, it's a funny story because people thought I was crazy leaving Graham & James, or leaving a private law firm to be with a Japanese company in Japan because I, on the surface, gave up a lot of things. So for example, my salary cut was probably about 30%, like a typical Japanese company, Itochu didn't have any offices.

I was sitting in an open floor plan when I had a really nice office in San Francisco. Of course no secretary, and no title. Going from a partner to just an ordinary employee within Itochu. So people thought I was crazy, why you doing that? But what I really liked about Itochu was the fact that they were engaged in so many different businesses, all around the world.

So for me, it was really about the businesses, the opportunities to be closer to all these transactions. But as you say, I didn't think that I would be here in 2021. 

Catherine: And you are. That's amazing. And the person who invited you to come and work, was that the same person that you had worked with during your secondment?

Claire: Yeah, he was actually the scariest client. Whenever I received phone calls from him as a young lawyer in a law firm, I would get very nervous because he always had these very difficult questions. And I still remember, I would get a phone call from him. Not so much email communication, right Catherine, back then.

Oftentimes his communications were phone calls. So I would receive a phone call and I would jump up and actually would respond to those phone calls standing, I remember. But he's the one who ultimately invited me back. He really became my mentor as well as my sponsor. I know that these are topics that we'll get into a little bit later, but he definitely helped me out.

Catherine: Oh wow. He's the sponsor and mentor. That’s amazing. And do you think you were actually interviewing for the position while you were on secondment then with him in reality? 

Claire: I don't think so. I don't think he had the notion either of hiring anybody. And so it had been what, four, five years since my secondment.

Catherine: Okay, but he remembered you of course.

Claire: He remembered me. And we actually kept on doing business together. 

Catherine: And he became your sponsor and mentor as we will get into. And so you rose through the ranks there and you became a general counsel. And was that a natural progression then too, or did a gap open up? 

Claire: No, not at all. 

Catherine: How did that come about? 

Claire: One of my deals that I wanted to make very clear when I joined Itochu was that I wanted to be more like an independent contractor.

When I joined Itochu, what's the Japanese word, it's... anyway, it's somebody who does special projects. So I wasn't sitting in any of these islands. I was in the legal department, but I had my desk to myself off to the side and I was assigned to special projects. And that's the way I liked to work.

I didn't want to have a boss or subordinate after all I thought, I had been a partner. There's really nothing else that I want. And so I think two years passed and this person who recruited me, he said Chino san, I think it's about time that you actually became one of the team leaders for a team in the legal department, meaning that I was actually going to be joining the hierarchical structure.

I really didn't want to have that, as I said, but he said it's a hierarchical structure. Companies are structured that way. And you have to be part of that system. So I still remember when April 1st I became a team leader with six or seven subordinates which meant that I had to review their work, also evaluate them. 

It's very different from the partner associate relationship in a law firm. It's actually more training, more educating, and it was quite stressful because it's something that I didn't necessarily want myself to be doing, to be responsible for others' work. But I think that it really gave me the opportunity to care for the team, as well as the team members.

It really led to, how do you manage a team? And eventually then I became associate general counsel and general counsel where I had to manage, of course, the legal department. And what is actually quite interesting is that, despite the fact that I don't think my work as a lawyer or my opinion as a lawyer changed over the years so much, within the organization, the perception or the, how my voice was received really changed.

So my opinion, as somebody in the legal department, is very different from an opinion of the head of legal. I realized that by being part of the organization, and in order to be taken seriously, you have to have that title and you should always strive for that title. 

Catherine: And do you have a seat at the boardroom table as well? The management level as well as GC?

Claire: So one thing that, if any of you listeners are thinking about joining a company in it’s an in-house position, you should really research where the legal department sits within the organization and what function it serves. Because in Itochu’s case, the legal department is very much part of the investment committee.

So if there's a large enough project, the legal department amongst other administrative departments, such as the accounting or treasury, have a say on whether they approve the project or not approve the project. And so you're very much part of the decision-making. So obviously as GC of such an organization, yes, my say actually meant a lot for the company and for those projects. 

Catherine: And so what did it take then to be a great general counsel? According to the book of Mitsuru Claire Chino, what does it take? And we were compiling a list of amazing skills and areas.

Claire: I think, having spent time in private practice really helped me because I really saw the business people as our clients, our partners but also our clients, meaning that we had to add value. Oftentimes legal departments can be the last department that business departments come to for the final stamp of approval.

But that's not the function that you want to have as the legal department, you have to add value. And I think that kind of a mindset is something that I perhaps learned in private practice, always being available for the clients, always trying to solve problems for them. And in fact, here my first mentor really taught me quite a bit.

And my first mentor is not this person that I've been talking about, but she is a partner or she was a partner of Graham & James in San Francisco. She's the one who actually sponsored me to be a partner of Graham & James, but she is a fantastic problem solver. She could not only spot issues, but then she could come up with really creative solutions.

And I really saw that to be something that I wanted to strive for. I still remember that at the end of one of the closings that we had a very difficult of transaction in San Francisco, of course, her clients gave her flowers and were very appreciative, but the other side, sent her flowers as well, because they were so appreciative of the fact that she was able to create solutions for everybody's benefit.

And I think, having seen somebody like her, I wanted to bring those skill sets to an in-house organization as well. So maybe that's something that I try to do within the legal department at Itochu. 

Catherine: Yeah. That recognition from the other side, I think that says a lot, doesn't it? Because you're meant to be opposing parties or getting to the best part of the deal. And there they are. It's not the flowers themselves. It's that symbolising of the fact that, thank you, you did a great job. You got us to where we needed to be. What an amazing endorsement. Wow. 

Claire: Absolutely. Yeah. 

Catherine: Now you are managing executive officer for Itochu Corporation in Japan, correct.

And you have the dual role as president and CEO of Itochu International in New York overseeing North America. So those seem to me to be quite different roles, overseeing different, perhaps different areas, different parts of the globe. So tell me a little bit more about those roles and what you do, and how many people report to you, those kinds of things?

Claire: So maybe I'll talk about first how I was assigned to New York. So I was very happy as GC for Itochu Corporation. And one day I was called to one of the director's offices and he said, your next posting is New York. And it's not a legal position. I was quite surprised. And he said, you're going to be the CAO, so the number two essentially, for Itochu International, Inc.

And I think he was worried that I would say, no. I don't know why he thought that. Maybe because he saw me as a legal person and definitely I saw myself as a legal person. But one of the things that I think is very important for especially women is to not forego chances. And if an opportunity came along, I was going to say, yes, I want to pursue that opportunity.

So at the spot I said, I happily accept, I’m excited to be the CAO. And that's how I moved to New York in 2017. And it was really a sort of an apprenticeship year for me for the company to see whether I was CEO material. So I served as CAO for one year and then became CEO the next year.

I was tremendously worried because I was never good in math. I still don't know how to do Excel spreadsheets.

Catherine: Neither do I.

Claire: But I'll tell you, Catherine, you don't really need to know how to make spreadsheets. 

Catherine: I always thought that. 

Claire: Yeah, exactly. You don't have to do all the calculation. You leave the calculation to those Excel gurus.

And I think what you have to really know, and it's something that you and I are both trained as lawyers, is to really understand the gist of what these numbers may represent. And I think again, issue spotting. So despite my initial fear, I'm actually finding that the CEO position is something that somebody with a legal background probably has an advantage in terms of making a good CEO because it's understanding the issues.

There are a lot of legal issues as well, especially in this day and age with COVID and also with the Biden administration here in the US, a lot of legislation, a lot of things coming out, and you have to understand them, the gravity of that, what you have to really pay attention to, what other risks which are minor to your organization that you can forget about, and make decisions.

Yeah, I'm actually thinking that a lawyer turned CEO is a pretty good career path for anybody.

Catherine: Many would say not. But I also think that is a very big possibility. And I heard about another Japanese woman who is in Japan and has been appointed as the CEO of 3M. She is a lawyer as well. I don't know if you know her, but…

Claire: Not yet.

Catherine: Hiroko Miyazaki And so I believe she has also taken this path. So I'm seeing a trend, a start of a trend. And I think you've laid the foundations for other lawyers to think about this, that you can be the CEO of an organization. That's amazing. And so your transition there to CEO is really fascinating because you also mentioned this in the chapter that you wrote in the Dear Chairwoman book. And you talk about the need, or the essentialness of having a sponsor and having somebody who looks after you in the organization. But I love how you wrote this and let me just quote you; a sponsor is someone who can promote you up and in the organization.

And I think you've used up and in very purposefully there, because up the organization and in the organization seem like two different things to me. Is that true that that’s how you’re seeing that sponsorship as a little bit different perhaps? 

Claire: Absolutely.

Catherine: And the difference there for you with mentors and why you need both, and the differences between them.

Claire: You have to be integrated into the organization first before you are brought up, I believe. And I don't want to generalize between men and women. But certainly my case being a lateral hire in Itochu Corporation, which is quite rare for a Japanese company and my initial reaction to being, I didn't want to be integrated into the organization, as I said.

But you have to actually be integrated into the organization before you can start climbing up the corporate ladder. And I think men are perhaps more socialized to be integrated into a particular organization, especially a Japanese corporation. And women, of course, still being the minority, maybe they both, the organization as well as the women, have a hard time sort of being integrated with each other. So a sponsor is somebody who makes sure that you have a seat at the table, so you're not sitting at another table, but you're actually all seated at the same time. And that's the integration part that I talk about.

So it's like Sheryl Sandberg's book Lean In, but before you can lean in, you have to be at the table or the desk, so that's the ‘in’ part. 

Catherine: You had two critical sponsors, it sounds like you also had another person back at the law firm as well, but your first sponsor you said, promoted you to general counsel in the legal division, and then your second person promoted you to this current position.

So what are the sponsors doing? They're not just doing a one-off, oh, I think Claire should be CEO of Itochu International. There you go. It must be over a period of time that the sponsor is promoting you. And perhaps there are times when you don't actually know they're doing that for you, or do you?

Claire: I don't think they have these master plans.

At least I'm not aware of those master plans, but I think it really boils down to really doing a good job on your daily basis. I was invited to join Itochu because I was doing a good job as a young lawyer. And he liked me. He saw me as somebody who would be a good colleague of his, a good subordinate of his.

So he brought me in the first place. And I hope that I continued to show that I was not only a good lawyer, but a benefit to the organization. So making decisions or even little things, just making those decisions for the good of the organization. And so maybe he saw that in me. 

And the person who then promoted me to CEO here, I think maybe he saw the same thing. I handled quite a number of really very large transactions for Itochu Corporation. And maybe he saw that I could handle the stressful situations very well. So yeah, I think it really boils down to really doing your job on a daily basis in a positive way for the organization.

And also looking after your colleagues or teammates.

Catherine: Do you ask someone to be a sponsor or do they say I'm going to be your sponsor? Is there a transaction there or how do you know that someone is your sponsor? 

Claire: So neither, but I think if you want to have somebody become a sponsor of you, what you can do is not necessarily ask them officially whether they would be a sponsor, but start interacting with them.

Maybe providing them with information that you might think would be helpful. So for example, I'm sitting here in New York, and if there is a piece of information, whether it be at the stock market situation or the hurricane Ida, which hit the U S quite badly, I know that all of those things are reported in Japanese newspapers too, but there are things or aspects that are not necessarily reported.

And you think that piece of information is important to whoever, you might want to take the initiative in reaching out and being of an asset to them. A sponsor is somebody that you have to actually give something back as well. It sounds so transactional, but for example, lawyers publish newsletters all the time, right?

Current recent developments and whatever. Why do law firms do that? Of course, because they want to get new clients or have existing clients come back to you, but that's not the only thing. I think they want to do something. They want to provide information that is of use to the clients. And I think this is the kind of same mentality that I've perhaps brought in, that I’m using.

Catherine: Good. Good. And then in terms of mentors and mentorship, that's a little bit different. How do they help us to do better? Because in the book, again, you talk about how you believe it's really important for any person to have a mentor and describe a mentor as someone who can show you the way forward.

Someone that you aspire to be. And you also referred to studies that have shown that someone who has a mentor tends to do better in the organization than one who does not. So why is this? And can you give your advice to people maybe who are thinking about trying to find a mentor, but they say they can't find someone?

Claire: A mentor is somebody who could be a sounding board. And the reason why people with mentors tend to do better is because they can vicariously live through the mentor’s successes and failures. So rather than trying out something for the first time by yourself, if you see a mentor having succeeded in doing something, having done something.

Then you can be confident enough to pursue that path. If you see a mentor having failed at something, maybe it’s something that you learn from the mentor’s lesson too, it becomes your lesson. So you're not so afraid of taking the first step. The mentor has actually taken that first step for you. And I think it's really important to have somebody like that.

In my case the San Francisco partner that I had, she was definitely my mentor. She showed me the way. She also became my sponsor as well when she recommended me for a partnership. So a mentor can be a sponsor as well, but it's somebody that is not necessarily so senior to you or who may not necessarily be in the same hierarchical line as you, because you don't want to jeopardize the relationship either. You want to have an open conversation with these mentors who can tell you what may work, what may not work, who may actually give you advice on how to interact with your boss. Because oftentimes I think in an organization, one of the things that you might struggle with is, if you have a boss that you don't necessarily get along with, and how do you talk about that?

You want to have a mentor who is not in the same line who might be able to look at things more objectively and give you great advice. 

Catherine: And they often know a lot about that particular person who is your line manager as well. So they can help you. Indeed. And so how should people go about finding somebody to be their mentor?

Can they ask? Is it good to be proactive and go and find a mentor? Or join a program perhaps, I know with Women in Law Japan, we have a mentorship program and that's obviously an invitation for people to be mentor, mentee. But if you're in an organization that doesn't have something like that, can you ask somebody?

Claire: Again, like with a sponsor, I don't think you go up to somebody and say, can you be my mentor? I think it starts with small steps, seeking advice, maybe inviting that person to coffee or just a 30 minute chat. I think it starts that way in a very informal setting. 

Because if you are approached by somebody and asked, can you be my mentor? That's a little bit too daunting, too serious. So I think you have to mould the mentor, the eventual mentor, to become your mentor. I think it starts with small steps. 

Catherine: Right, small steps. Yes, it is. It's just, can you be my mentor and the person may not know anything about you, seen any of your work, know anything about your personality, just knows that you're somebody in the organization. So that is great advice. I hope that's helpful for people because some say they don't know how, but then there's small steps. So it's not a big question to somebody, but it's about taking time to get to know people and ask them and do things for them.

Claire: I also want to stress the importance of organizations like the foreign women lawyers association and these organizations that are out there. So they may not necessarily be mentors in the strictest of definition, but it's really important to have people who may understand your situation. So women in the law profession.

And I know that I made two really good friends through Foreign Women Lawyers Association and I still seek advice from them and get great advice. So I don't think you should be thinking always that you have to have a sponsor or a mentor, but people that you meet through these organizations can be your great friends and great mentors in a broad sense.

Catherine: Exactly. Great. And I'm going to ask you again, just aligned to that, but a little bit of a different topic, because I know that diversity on boards is also one really passionate subject that you like to talk about and tied into that, I thought it was very interesting, your writing about individualism and how essentially we are all individuals with different layers and identities.

And I was interested how perhaps individualism moves into diversity on boards and how we can bring that to diversity on boards. And with that, I also wanted to ask you about this Cornell advisory board role that you have. So first up, tell me a little bit about individualism, because I know you've written about that in the book that we talked about, because I really found that fascinating. 

Claire: So in my case, I know that I became executive officer of Itochu Corporation at the age of 46, which was considered to be very young. Although it's not that young, but I think the average age for one to become an executive officer certainly at Itochu was around 52. I know that at some of the other trading companies, it may be older than that. 53 54. 

So first of all, why is this 46 year old becoming an executive officer? And certainly my gender played a huge role, but it actually, in that sense, it helped me become an executive officer. Had I been a man, would I have made executive officer at the same time? I just don't know. It was very interesting because the CEO then, who made me the executive officer, he actually posted an intranet message when I was announced to become an executive officer saying that Ms. Chino is becoming executive officer. Not because she's a woman, but because she has been recognized by other communities like the World Economic Forum, this and that. And it was very, I was actually flattered. I thought that was a very, sort of, supportive, encouraging message.

Interestingly, there were people who didn't take it very well. Women. They thought that why did he, why does he need to say that she's being made executive officer not because she's a woman? But I think oftentimes certainly the slightly older generation, you and I, we become board members or become executive officers earlier on than men.

And to a certain extent, because we are women. And how do you think about that? Because I think one way to look at it is that I don't want to just be recognized as a woman. I have other qualifications. And why are they not talking about that? And I think I came to the realization that, certainly in my case, my gender played a role.

And I think that's a fact. Of course other qualifications played a role and you just have to acknowledge that. And maybe there are things that you can actually bring to the table because you're a woman, not because you are a woman, but because you see things differently from the majority of the board members. I really do believe that people tend to make decisions based upon their own experiences and your experience as a man could be very different from an experience as a woman.

So as a result of that, your view could be very different depending on your upbringing and in a Japanese company, if all of the men basically have similar upbringings, of course their outlook is going to be very similar. And your role as somebody who doesn't belong to that category or group, is to perhaps bring a different view to the set of issues or whatever that you're facing. So I don't think you should necessarily be very nervous about the fact that you're asked to speak or become a board member partly because you're a woman. 

Recently I was actually asked to attend an international conference. It's a US Japan business conference. And the secretariat, especially from Japan, wanted to ask me to be part of that meeting because there were so few women attending. Should I be offended by that? I wasn't, I was actually, I thought, I'd be happy to speak, but having said that the individualism is that yes, you are bringing a set of maybe different ideas from the rest, but it may not necessarily be something that is always centered around women's issues.

You shouldn't think that you're invited to be a board member to always address diversity issues. Although that is something that is very important. 

 he book you've talked about your gender is certainly an important aspect of who you are and it is also though crucial to remember that it's the voice of you as an individual that matters.

Claire: Exactly.

Catherine: Because not of who you are, rather that it represents a voice, not a female voice exactly. But a voice that matters. Yeah. I loved that. You can see, I've been reading the book. 

Claire: I don't even remember what I wrote. So thank you so much.

Catherine: So you, even if you didn't become a writer as yet and publish a book yourself, I don't think I've seen that. I think it's certainly in your stars to do that. 

And then Cornell advisory board, you are on the advisory board and I know advisory boards are quite different to being an external director, for example. So how is that working for you? What kind of things do you do with the Cornell advisory board? And is it a good thing that you would suggest people might like to do?

Claire: Oh, absolutely. Yes. So the Cornell advisory board consists of alumns and it's an advisory board to the Dean of the law school. And this is something that may be, I don't know how it is in Japan, but certainly here in the US the alumni play such a huge role in influencing educational institutions. First of all, alumni give a lot of money to the school.

So they're financially very supportive of the school that they graduated from. And alongside generally very interested in making sure that their schools stay competitive, also, especially for the law school alumns, many of these alumns actually help the students find jobs, whether it be with their firm or otherwise.

So the alumns are not only supporters of the law school emotionally, but financially as well as from the professional career development perspective as well. So of course the law school wants to keep close contact with the advisory board members. And what I bring, I think, to the advisory board is that I am the only member from Japan.

Many of these members are partners in New York law firms and how they see law school education may be very different from, for example, how I see law school education. And especially now that I'm part of the management, that I'm no longer in private practice. For example, I see that there should be more courses on international private law or M&A, the importance of lawyers learning accounting, or just the numbers, maybe not creating spreadsheets, but understanding the numbers. So these are things that I talk about at these board meetings. So again, whether you are a member of an advisory board for a law school or a corporation, whatever, I think it's really your voice. Something different that you're bringing, some different perspective that you’re bringing to the table that others may not actually have, for the benefit of the organization, whether it be a corporation or law school. 

Catherine: And having been in-house, being a general counsel as well. That's probably something that the partners and the law firm who were also in the advisory board, they may not have had that experience as well. So you also bring that in as well. Don't you. And then also, would you be bringing in those teaching days that you had at Keio and Hitotsubashi

Because you had those tucked in as well into your career there. 

Claire: Yeah, exactly. So for example, I was part of the advisory board already for Cornell when Cornell formed an association with Keio law school, when the law school system was first started in Japan. So from that perspective, I think during the Koizumi administration, there was all this talk about legal reform, including law school reform or establishing law schools.

And I did speak in front of the Jiminto in terms of why Japan needed to liberalize its legal structure, legal system. Including allowing foreign lawyers to become partners in Japanese law firms. And also starting the law school system. 

Catherine: Wow, you did that. We have a lot to owe you for so much that you've done.

That's amazing. Gosh, thank you so much. And I also can't avoid talking about your singing and I don't want to finish this recording without having asked you about your singing. And I know I'm flipping from talking about boards and to singing, but it is about your outside activities and networking and those passions that you have outside of your day job, shall we say, or day jobs. 

Passion for singing. Where did that come from? You said you spoke about, from a young age. 

Claire: Yeah, even in kindergarten, I just loved singing.

Catherine: But how did you know your voice would lend itself to the classical genre rather than anything else? I haven't asked you this question ever before. 

Claire: Nobody actually has asked me that. I don't know. Maybe I haven't actually sung any other genre, so maybe it's something that I should try, but I was fortunate enough to have a really good teacher in Los Angeles as a high school student.

So it really started from there. And also it really started from, because my English was not good when I moved to the US at the age of 14. Singing was a way to communicate with others without really being able to speak English. So it was a way to make friends. I joined the chorus of my high school, things like that.

So it's been fantastic. 

Catherine: Yeah. That is really nice. And when's your next concert?

Claire: So my last concert was January last year. So right before the pandemic. I can't believe that we were actually gathered in person back then. But in January we weren't even worried about COVID here in New York. And I was fortunate enough to have a recital at Carnegie Hall.

I'm hoping that I can do something next year, but we'll see how things go. 

Catherine: Yeah, let's wait and see. Hopefully you can. I look forward to hearing about that. And then you brushed across the World Economic Forum status that you've received from them. You were named the global leadership fellow.

You went off to Davos and then you became a Global Leadership Fellow, right, after that, I think. And then you also became a Young Global Leader. That's what it was. Alongside Hiroshi Mikitani the president of Rakuten and all the Japanese people. And you've done so much there with the YGLs and starting that Beyond Tomorrow in 2011 and the Table for Two.

How did all that come about? Is that also just through your activities? You've been recognized and invited to Davos. That must have been an amazing experience, 

Claire: So I definitely had a sponsor for that. I don't know who that is. But I suspect that it was one of the professors who saw me teach.

So right after I returned to Japan in 2000, I started teaching part-time at Temple Law School Japan. So there was a course called East West Negotiation and it was actually a really fun class, fun evening class. And I was teaching negotiation skills to these American and Japanese students.

And that led me to a stint at Hitotsubashi Business School, I think it was. I don't think it was the law school, business school. I lectured at Hitotsubashi as well. I think one of the professors at Hitotsubashi who saw me thought that I would be a good candidate and, because he was on the advisory board for the World Economic Forum. 

And so I think that's how it came about. Again it's something that I think if you’re passionate about something and if you're doing that and spreading the word. Those people will notice you. 

Catherine: And you had to give a speech there, didn’t you? 

Claire: I had to give a speech there and Klaus Schwab, Professor Schwab, is the founder of the World Economic Forum.

And as he was presenting me or presenting all of us individually with these awards, you had to actually make a one minute speech on why you deserve to be recognized on the spot. Why you deserve to be recognized as a global, so I think it was called the global leader for, the young global, what does it call now? GLT, Global Leader for Tomorrow. 

And I said I think I can do something for Japanese women working for Japanese corporations, because certainly I was the only global leader for tomorrow from Japan being a woman. And even the world economic forum generally, there weren't too many Japanese woman, aside from maybe Mrs.Madam Ogata, the High Commissioner for the Refugees. 

So I just felt that there were so few Japanese women represented at the world economic forum. And if there is anything that I can do, then it's to advance Japanese women’s, position is not the right word, but position within Japanese companies.

But I really do thank professor Schwab for asking me that question, because I never really thought about that. Why do I deserve to be called anything? And I think that question meant what's the purpose that you see for yourself in your life. And that really, that's the question that really opened my eyes.

And that's how I initiated the diversity program within Itochu, because had it not been for that question, I would have been very happy just going along as a good lawyer. Pleasing my clients. But what is my bigger purpose in life is something that I never really thought about. 

Catherine: Did he ask the same question to everybody or was it different?

Claire: I'm sure he did. I just don't remember anybody else's questions or their answers. I was so nervous. 

Catherine: It's interesting, isn't it? How something like that became so significant. 

Claire: Yes. And actually, so there were three other Japanese; Oki Matsumoto of Monex, Joi Ito previously of the MIT Media lab, and Mr. Doumai, who recently was announced as to become a head of, Mujirushi Ryohin

Those three were in the audience and they were, I remember, once I got off the stage, they were like clapping and they're like, yeah. So it was a great experience. 

Catherine: Because you came back and then you formed the committee and you achieved the goals in order to show women's visibility within the company.

And then that led to the other programs that you started right, with the alumn. Was it with those chaps who were in the audience?

Claire: It wasn't the same people, but for example, James Kondo of the International House of Japan right now. But so James Kondo, Doumai san that I just mentioned who used to be with Uniqlo back then. So he's now with MUJI, but he was with Uniqlo and then another politician; Furukawa san of Nagoya and myself. We were actually at another summit of the Young Global Leaders. And again, professor Schwab said we have to come up with concrete projects. And so we were, those with ideas had to raise their hand.

And James Kondo was with the Public Health Organization of Japan back then. And he really wanted to do something with balancing hunger on the one hand and obesity on the other hand. How can you actually put in a system where you can virtually share a table? So if you had too much on your plate at a table, and if the other person didn't have anything on his plate, you can say, oh, have some of my meals, but how can you do that virtually?

So that was his idea. And we needed a company cafeteria to try that out. So at Itochu, what we would do is we would actually have a meal that is fewer in calories than an ordinary meal. And that would actually cost 10 yen more. So that the employees would be paying 10 yen more if they were to pick that particular meal, and Itochu would contribute match another 10 yen.

So it would be 20 yen from the meal and the 20 yen would then go to a program such as the Table for Two. It will go to the Table for Two and then Table for Two would then donate that to meal programs. And Table for Two, the logo as well as the name, was developed by Uniqlo. So it was, Doumai san’s Uniqlo, James Kondos idea, Itochu’s cafeteria and then Furukawa san, the congressman was able to spread the word amongst the politicians. 

Catherine: Wow, fantastic. The brains that come together and come up with something like that. Is that still in existence? 

Claire: Yes, it is. Yeah. There's also a Table for Two USA as well. 

Catherine: Woah, that is really brilliant. I hope this inspires people to think about these things. That's amazing. Thank you for sharing that. 

I do want to shift gears because I do want to also know about your routine, Claire, how you start your day? It's morning there for you now. You wouldn't normally be on a podcast every day, but can you tell me how you start your day?

Claire: This is my first podcast of my life. 

Catherine: Congratulations. How do you start your day and what does it look like? Is it quite regular? Are you working late at night? What sort of rituals or things do you have within your day to keep your routine? 

Claire: Of course, COVID really made us think about our work style.

So we are back into the office at least three times a week right now. I'm actually going into the office mostly every day, but I get up around six o'clock. I recently bought an Alexa device. So the Alexa device wakes me up and I usually check email messages because overnight messages from Japan have come in.

So I check my email messages as I eat my breakfast. And then I go to work around eight o'clock, it's very close by. And by the way, I buy coffee at the ground floor of the building. Just going back to this issue of mentorship or somebody that you look up to, the person from whom I buy coffee every morning, she is just such a lovely person.

She remembered my name immediately and she knows what I want. So every single time as I'm walking up to the counter, she already has my coffee ready. And her name's Elizabeth, that's the kind of person that I want to be as well. So it really doesn't matter whether it's the Madame Ogatas or Elizabeths.

If you see a person that you aspire to be like, try to copy the good qualities that they have. You don't have to look for somebody so special with a special title to be your role model. But anyway, so I get coffee, go to work, and sometimes I have in-person meetings, but oftentimes virtual meetings.

And I come home around five o'clock. I take a walk around Central Park and it's very nice. Next Monday, I'm an evening student at the Julliard Music School. So my class is starting next week. Unfortunately, virtual still this semester. But so I'll be singing from about seven to nine o'clock on Monday evenings.

So that's my routine. 

Catherine: That's fantastic. And so you actually can get away from the office at a regular time? 

Claire: Yes. It doesn't mean that I'm off the computer, but it's still at least I’m physically away from the office. 

Catherine: And you're carving out time in the evening there for some joyful activities as well, which is just fantastic.

Wow. And when you were going through your career, I'm going to ask you, but I ask lots of people, is the best piece of advice you had when you were starting out your career. And also the worst. 

Claire: Being an associate in a law firm situation was very tough. It was very stressful. So it's not really a piece of advice, but I think it was very important at that stage to be surrounded with people who really believed in you.

So it could be your family members or an organization outside of your corporation. But it's really good to have that support network because it can really get you down. My associate days, a couple of years, were really very tough because it was just so busy with so few associates, so much work.

Now you become worried when there's so little work, when there's so much work and so few associates, it can become really stressful too. So it's not one piece of advice, but just really make sure that you have that support group to keep you going. 

Catherine: And the worst advice would be not to have that I would imagine.

Claire: Exactly. 

Catherine: And do you have a kind of a theme word that guides you each year? Or do you have some kind of word of the year, for example? I do. Mine is intentional for this year. How about that? Do you have anything like that, that guides you through the year?

Claire: I think it really depends. Now that I’m responsible for my colleagues. It really depends upon where we are at any given moment, but, last year and this year I established a slogan for the organization and it is called team journey. We were in a lockdown situation from March to June last year here in New York City.

It was a very scary moment. I said that early on that I can see Hudson river from here, but I also saw the hospital vessel Comfort was docked right outside my apartment building. Central Park was turning into a hospital yard. And so my number one priority was how to really keep everybody safe, but it really had to be a team journey.

So we were making these journeys together, even though through choppy waters. So we continued, we had the theme team journey and we had certain guiding principles under team journey. For example, how we would stay as one team, despite the fact that some of us are coming into the office, others are working from home and things like that. This year I'm actually continuing on with team journey, but I also started another project called Project Vivaldi.

Vivaldi of course, is the composer who wrote The Four Seasons. And the theme, why I chose the project name as Project Vivaldi is because I really want our employees to be well throughout all four seasons and by well I mean physical wellbeing, emotional wellbeing and financial wellbeing. Yeah. We have a project team journey is still going on, but also Project Vivaldi.

Catherine: That is great. Thank you. You answered an amazing answer there with team journey. I just love that. Especially since you had that happening outside your office window. Now you've got filming of a movie, but that was not a movie that was real life happening right there. Well Claire, is there anything else that we haven't covered today that you'd like to mention or anything else you've said that you'd like to reemphasize?

Claire: Of course, I didn't have a chance to ask you any questions. So next time I’d like to get your thoughts on many of these questions. 

Catherine: Next time, indeed. Okay. 

Claire: There has to be a podcast on you.

Catherine: Yes, there has been one. Angela Krantz, did you know Angela? Angela turned the tables on me on Episode 10 of Season One, and I was interviewed by her. 

Something we can share with you later, but let's head into the final round, which is a quick fire round of about six or seven questions, which I ask each guest when we wind up the interview. And so the first question, and I think I might actually know the answer to this, but if I gave you 1 million yen in cash, where would you spend that?

Perhaps the equivalent in US dollars for you. Would you have a favorite store or destination, or perhaps a cause that you would give that to? 

Claire: So it's actually not that much if I may say so.

Catherine: Well it’s all I’ve got to give you but that’s enough.

Claire: Yeah, no, absolutely. Ah, let's see. 

Catherine: You could do some damage at a store. 

Claire: Yeah. I'm actually not much of a shopper, but I guess I would travel. I would like to, we have been away from traveling for so long. I would like to travel. 

Catherine: Where would you go? 

Claire: Of course, I'd like to go back to Japan, but aside from that, I'd like to go back to Europe as well. My last trip was to France. That was beautiful. 

Catherine: Yeah. 

Claire: Or maybe even Ireland or Scotland.

Catherine: Great. Great. I'd love to go there too. So second question. Can you share the name of a book you've been reading and maybe you haven't been listening to podcasts, I'm not sure, but the name of a podcast, if you've been listening to one or perhaps just a book that you have read recently or are reading.

Claire: So there is a book called On Borrowed Time and it's written by Graham Hall, he is an English writer, but he is somebody who was my colleague at Deacons in Hong Kong. So he's a lawyer, he's a lawyer turned writer, and it's actually about this mystery that takes place in Hong Kong, in China. And it's very interesting. 

Catherine: It sounds very interesting. There's a book on my bookshelf that's by Catherine O'Connell, but it's not me. I just bought it. So it sits on my shelf. Hopefully I can be like Graham one day and actually write one. Okay. So you're stuck on a desert island, Claire, and you need to bring one person, one item and one food.

Claire: Oh, that's really difficult. My husband is going to hate this, so hopefully he's not going to be listening to this, but I think I would say my mother. Because she is just my greatest supporter. In terms of food.

Catherine: Maybe some home cooking. 

Claire: Maybe some home cooking. And drink, I just can't think of, maybe some lemonade. 

Catherine: Good. That'll keep you refreshed. Is there a famous person or celebrity you would love to meet or have met maybe downstairs at the filming area there, but is there somebody famous you'd like to meet or have already met? 

Claire: I think I would like to meet Renee Fleming, the soprano singer. Of course she's a wonderful singer, but I don't know if you've read her book.

Catherine: No, I haven't. 

Claire: It's not like fame came to her easily. She auditioned and auditioned and auditioned and was rejected so many times. And then finally, when she was about to give up, she was discovered. So she's a very hardworking person and somebody I would love to meet. 

Catherine: Wow. Where is she? Is she American?

Claire: She's American. Yeah, she's American. And I think she's maybe in Virginia these days. 

Catherine: That's wonderful. And the last question is something about you that others don't know. 

Claire: Do you know that I'm a cat person? 

Catherine: No, I didn't. I didn't know that at all.

Claire: I love cats. I love cats. And we used to cat sit for our friends here in New York.

It was a Tonkinese cat called Sakura very sweet. I just love cats and I cannot wait to get cats one of these days. 

Catherine: Fantastic. That is wonderful. That finishes those questions. So Claire, thank you very much for sharing your story today and telling us about your marvelous career, the wonderful balance of outside activities you have and all of those things as you hold down, those amazing top level jobs. It's been so lovely to connect with you again in this way today.

Thank you very much. 

Claire: Catherine. Thank you so much for this opportunity. Look forward to seeing you soon. Thank you. 

Catherine: And if people would like to connect with you, how do they do that? Is it better to do that through me? Or would you like them to connect with you on LinkedIn? 

Claire: I'm not very good with LinkedIn, but they certainly can if they want to. 

Catherine: That's great. I'd like to finish it up there and we've had this fantastic conversation about your impressive career and you really are showing that lawyers can go to that pinnacle of an organization and use their legal skills and experience to lead an organization as yet another way to lead a lawyer life.

And so I'm really grateful that you've come on as my second guest in this second season of Lawyer on Air. And thank you for sharing your journey. It's been very inspiring. 

Claire: Thank you Catherine.

Catherine: And for all of the listeners, please do listen to this episode, subscribe and do drop us a short review, because that does help for Lawyer on Air to be seen and heard by more people.

We're also now on our own YouTube channel as well. So you can listen to us there and you go onto my webpage and leave me a voicemail. I'd really love to hear you do that. So thank you very much everyone for listening and to Claire again, and I hope that everyone has enjoyed and are inspired again to live a wonderful lawyer lady life.

Thank you Claire, and that's all now. Thank you and see you on the next episode. Cheers, kampai, and bye for now.

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