Full transcript follows.

What do sailing the seven seas for many months, learning Japanese from scratch and working at the top law firm in two different countries have in common? My guest Pavitra Iyer has done them all! If you believe there is only one path to being a top level lawyer, then her story will definitely show you otherwise! Pavitra will show you that truly anything is possible with her fascinating lawyer life as an M&A lawyer in both India and Japan. 

If you enjoyed this episode and it inspired you in some way, we’d love to hear about it and know your biggest takeaway. Head over to Apple Podcasts to leave a review and we’d love it if you would leave us a message here!

In this episode you’ll hear:

• How Pavitra overcame the expectations of her family to become a lawyer

• Her life changing experience of living abroad in London and studying at the London School of Economics & Political Science

• How Pavitra came to be working at one of the most prestigious law firms in India

• The fabulous life lessons from her mentor Zia Mody

• Why Pavitra left the law to sail around the world with her husband

• How Pavitra found herself in Japan and was hired at a top Tokyo law firm

• Being a parent and a high flying legal eagle in Tokyo

• Pavitra’s ideas for the future in her career

• Her favourite books and other fun facts 

About Pavitra

Pavitra is a multi-jurisdictional transactions lawyer with over ten years of experience in leading law firms in India and Japan. Eight of these years were spent with one of the top Japanese firms, Mori Hamada & Matsumoto. Before relocating to Japan in 2010, Pavitra worked for the Mumbai office of AZB & Partners, one of India’s premier law firms. Her practice areas are M&A, Private Equity, Corporate Compliance and General Corporate Advisory. 

Pavitra is admitted in India and as a Solicitor of England & Wales, in addition to being a registered foreign lawyer in Japan. Her core work involves advising clients on various aspects of cross-border investments. In Japan, this has largely taken the form of advising Japanese clients investing in India and overseas,  and advising on local compliance matters and other queries that arise in the context of doing business in India. Pavitra uses not just her legal skills and expertise, but also her first-hand knowledge of Indian culture and the related nuances that come necessarily bundled with doing cross-border business, to help her clients successfully implement their business needs.

Pavitra completed her undergraduate degree in law from the University of Pune and developed a love for corporate law during her post-graduate days at the London School of Economics & Political Science, where she graduated with a Masters degree in Corporate and Commercial laws.

Being a mother to a very active 4-year old, she says spare time is mostly a fond memory, but on the occasions that she can lose herself in a book, or her music, she is content. 

Connect with Pavitra

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/pavitra-iyer-72983b4/ 

Website: https://www.tkilaw.com/ 

Links

Bagus Bar https://www.bagus-bar.jp/english.html 

Hannah Ken, Burial Rights: https://www.amazon.co.jp/Burial-Rites-Hannah-Kent/dp/0316243922 

Khalil Gibran, The Prophet https://www.amazon.co.jp/Prophet-Kahlil-Gibran/dp/0394404289 

Connect with Catherine 

Linked In https://www.linkedin.com/in/oconnellcatherine/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lawyeronair

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/catherine.oconnell.148

Twitter: https://twitter.com/oconnelllawyer

Transcript

Catherine: Hi, everyone. Welcome to the third episode and season two of Lawyer on Air. I'm Catherine O'Connell. Today I am joined by Pavitra Iyer, who is a multi jurisdictional transactions lawyer with over 10 years of experience in leading law firms in both India and in Japan. Eight of those 10 years were spent with one of the top four Japanese firms, Mori Hamada and Matsumoto.

Pavitra completed her undergraduate bachelor of laws degree from the University of Pune. Pune is the seventh biggest city in India with just over 3 million inhabitants. Pavitra developed a love for corporate law during her postgraduate days at the London School of Economics and Political Science, where she graduated with a master's degree in corporate and commercial law in 2005. Pavitra is admitted in India and is also a solicitor of England and Wales.

In addition to being a registered foreign lawyer in Japan and a member of the Daini Tokyo Bar Association. From 2006 up to 2010 Pavitra was based in India. And she worked in the Mumbai office of AZB & Partners, which is one of India's best known and prestigious law firms. Pavitra has been in Japan the last 10 years, having relocated to Tokyo with her family in 2010. 

She studied Japanese in Tokyo for a little over a year and in 2013 joined Mori Hamada as a foreign law counsel. Pavitra’s areas of practice are mergers and acquisitions, private equity, corporate compliance, and general corporate advisory. Her core work involves advising clients on various aspects of cross-border investments. And in Japan, this advice has largely taken the form of advising Japanese clients who are investing into India and overseas.

Pavitra also advises on local compliance matters and other queries that arise in the context of doing business in Japan and India. Not only using her legal skills and expertise, but Pavitra also leverages her firsthand knowledge of Indian culture and the related nuances that come bundled up with doing cross border business.

So with this duo of cultural and legal savviness Pavitra helps her clients successfully implement their business needs, and Pavitra also does volunteer work with me on the executive committee of Women in Law Japan, and most recently appeared on the panel about mentoring women to become effective leaders in Japan. And I know this is one of her passions. 

Being a mother to an active four year old Pavitra tells me very clearly that in her spare time, well, her spare time is actually a novel concept and mostly a fond memory for her of the past, but on the occasions that she can take time out, she loses herself in a book or music where she becomes blissfully content.

Well, Pavitra is another super example to anyone listening that you can do a lot with your legal career, pulling out your unique, cultural, and language DNA to excel as a lawyer. extraordinaire. I'm really and truly pleased to bring you Pavitra as my guest today.

Pavitra, welcome to the show!

Pavitra: Hi Catherine.

Thank you so much for having me on. 

Catherine: And today we're going to talk about your career path, how you navigated your studies in London, you mastered your foundational black letter law experience in India and your decision to come to Japan. And we'll talk about your passions, your exciting next career, and I'd love you to offer up some gems of advice for young lawyers on their career path.

How does that sound? 

Pavitra: Sounds wonderful. Thank you so much. 

Catherine: Well today we're online, but if we were going to be meeting up in person and I hope we're going to do that soon, where would we be? Do you have a favorite wine bar or cafe or restaurant that you like to go to and what would be your choice of beverage off the menu?

Pavitra: Ooh, so, you know, Catherine, if this were before, you know, the pandemic days, then I would probably just tell you to pick the place because I just love exploring new bars, restaurants in Japan. And, you know, I would just go to a lot of new places and I think my favorite drink would either be a dry red or a dry white, depending on what I'm eating.

And now of course, with the pandemic and also being a mother to a four year old, there's this little Italian restaurant really close to where I live which has some wonderful Alfresco seating options. And that's usually where I just hang out nowadays. It's called Bagus and it's actually become my new favorite now I think.

Catherine: Lovely. Maybe we can meet up there very soon and have a coffee, or if it's later in the day, we can have a dry red or white depending. Yay. And I'm trying to think back too, to where we officially met. Do you remember, was it maybe the Women in Law Japan evening event, in Ark Hills Roppongi and around 2019, I think it was an exec committee meeting.

Pavitra: Yeah, it was, I think we had an exec committee bonenkai, and it was a really nice dinner and I think that's, so we had probably sort of bumped into each other at WILJ events before that. But I think that was the first time we actually spoke to each other and sort of got to know each other a little bit.

It was not very long ago, but since then, of course I've worked with you so closely and seen you pretty often at the WILJ meetings and it's just been wonderful getting to know you.

Catherine: Sure, that's right. Cause I think after that end of year party, we had the beginning party, New Year's party in January, 2020, and then we all went online.

And so, yes, it's true. I've gotten to know you a lot more over these last couple of years, so that's really great. I thought I had pinpointed where we first met. I wanted to now go back Pavitra, into your career, but let's just talk a little bit about your early days and I'm really interested. And I ask everyone, as I think you know, what they wanted to be when they were a child.

How about you? 

Pavitra: You know, Catherine, I wish I had a very inspiring story for your listeners about this, but so I come from this very sort of traditional Indian family where there's a lot of focus on the sciences and, you know, we were six cousins. We are six cousins in my family and it was just an unspoken sort of understanding that we would be a mix of doctors and engineers, because that's pretty much what everyone in my family is.

I was kind of just following the lead and going along with the flow. And I signed up for maths and science in my A levels. And I discovered that I had not received that gene somehow. Yeah, it was really challenging. There was nothing else that I had thought of becoming, because this was always what I was taught from childhood that, you know, science, science, mathematics, you know, medicine, engineering.

So at that very sort of important time in my life when I had no idea of what I wanted to do, I had this really nice English teacher in school. I used to be pretty active in all of those, you know, extra curricular stuff like debating clubs, drama clubs. I used to love things like that more than I love the study, the academic part of school.

And she actually suggested law to me as an option because her son had just gone into one of India's top law schools and that kind of set the ball rolling. And I decided to take an entrance examination and that's when I got into law school and the rest has followed from there, but it actually was something that I was led to at a very late stage in my life and not something that I was, you know, interested in from the beginning.

Catherine: So when your English teacher suggested that, did you go away and start looking up what law was about? Did you have something else that you were continuing to do to get that interest, or did you just really take it on board and say that's for me. And how about your family? How did they react? 

Pavitra: That's an interesting story.

So I have always loved reading books and, you know, I used to read a lot of Arthur Haileys and, you know, I think by that point, even John Grisham and that, of course, that was your introduction to what a very exciting vehicle life could be like. I knew that you'd have to leverage your language skills and be at that time it was about language.

And so the entrance examination covered language, it covered logic, there was basic arithmetic, current affairs and things like that. All of which I was interested in anyway, because I used to love to read. And like I said, I was doing mathematics at the A levels. And so when I looked at the requirements, it just felt like, it could be a very good option for me.

My family on the other hand was not super excited about me wanting to be a lawyer. We have great law schools in India. But even back when I signed up for law school, there were maybe like four or five really good universities. 

Because of Bollywood, which is one of our sort of main offerings to the world, law had always been portrayed as kind of a villainous profession in Indian films. And there'd be the cops trying to do the good deeds and there would be these lawyers trying to foil everything in court. So no one had a very good or a very wholesome, and when I say no one, I mean, no one in my family had a wholesome impression or approach towards the law.

But I think when they then found out about the school I wanted to go to, and of course the University of Pune. Pune is very old. It's a university town and it's actually called the Oxford of the east. And I think getting into a good law school, and combined with the fact that I was pretty stubborn and not willing to listen to anything they had to say, you know, they just had to let me go away to law school.

And that's actually how it happened. 

Catherine: Right. Well done. I had to look at the internet and the pictures of the university and it does very much look like a very English looking school indeed. And so you finished up there and then went to London to study. 

Pavitra: So I finished up there and so it was five years of law school and I actually did about two and a half years of kind of like training.

And so this was when I wasn't sure what I wanted to specialize in as a lawyer. So when I was in university, I had done a fair bit of volunteering for some environmental NGOs, and I was very involved in the social justice side of law. And I wanted to go into litigation. Corporate law was never something that was even, it wasn't something I'd considered seriously, because it was all about helping, making changes in the best way that I could do them. And my experience with these NGOs really, you know, the environmental NGOs, when I was a student in law school, I got to see people just using nothing but their time.

And just try and effect these changes at such micro levels, which would in turn lead to these bigger changes in society. And I thought that I could probably do that best being a litigation lawyer, and making these small incremental changes, which would then lead to bigger effects in society.

But reality, when I did my two years of training, was actually quite different from my expectation, because being a litigation lawyer in India, it's a slightly different animal than being a litigation lawyer outside. It's still very much like a closed club. And I think that you need some connections.

You probably need a godfather. You need to know people to actually break into it, to get into a good chambers with a good senior lawyer and then be trained on the job. And it was when I was doing this training that one of the partners in that firm actually told me to look at corporate law as an option.

And I still remember him telling me that corporate law is a great career option for women, for women lawyers. So why don't you look at that? Doing my research on that, I realized that I wanted to study a little more because what I had learned in law wasn't enough to prepare me for a job in corporate law.

And many Indian lawyers tend to gravitate, for higher education, towards the UK, for obvious reasons, you know, common law and everything. And I always wanted to study in London. And so I applied to just a few law schools, and they were all London based. And when I got into the LSE, of course I just grabbed that opportunity and that's how I went there.

Catherine: Right. Amazing. I mean, what I'm taking from what you've already said, You've had two people in your life very early on who were very influential. And I think that's really a great point because we should listen to people and what they say. I mean, not everybody perhaps says something that is worth taking on board, but you've had two people right there early on who've directed you, sort of guided you. Given you little hints to what you would be good at, right? The teacher and this male partner telling you about corporate law and that it's an excellent career path for women. Really, really interesting that you've had that in your early stages. Of course, that was significant for you, wasn't it?

Pavitra: I think it was life changing, Catherine. I mean, they literally set me on the path to where I am today. When you put it that way, I realize what big sort of moments those were in my professional life. 

Catherine: Especially since also you weren't doing what was traditional in your family, and that takes a lot of courage 

Pavitra: Call it courage. Others would call it being stubborn, you know, but I think I'd go with courage. Yes, definitely.

Catherine: Okay. Well, you went over to London. How was that? Did you have more of a deepening of your interest in law as you were there? And it must've been an amazing environment to be in as well.

Pavitra: I would easily put that as the best year of my life, that period that I was in London. It was my first experience living abroad. I'd of course traveled a lot before, but I'd never actually lived anywhere overseas. So that in itself was such an enriching experience, and the LSE, it's right in the middle of the financial heart of the world.

And my professor, so I actually learnt corporate law with Paul Davies who wrote the authority on company law, you know Gower & Davies. And he was also my guide for my dissertation topic. And my love for corporate law started there and then it just sort of just exploded, you know, it was wonderful. And I think the people I met, the friends I made at the LSE are friends today.

They've traveled to see me. We've traveled back and forth to meet each other, been at each other's weddings. And it's not just what it did for me professionally, but also I think the personal sort of friendships that I formed, which I carry with me very closely even today, and also the other great thing that happened to me there, was I actually met my husband while I was studying.

Catherine: Here it is. Here's the story.

Pavitra: Yeah, there's the story. So interestingly, I actually had met him before, through a common friend when I was in Mumbai before I went to London, but we actually got together in the UK. He was a Shippy, he was in the merchant navy. And so he was doing a course somewhere up North, near Scotland.

And I was in London, just went for a weekend trip. It was a great weekend. 

Catherine: Wow, fantastic. Yeah. I mean, that's life-changing and so how long was that course? Was it two years?

Pavitra: My course was a year, it was just a one-year course, but I was there for three months before, and then I stayed on until my convocation, which was in December.

So the whole, my entire stay would have been a little over a year and a half. 

Catherine: Right. And do you have a graduation ceremony and did family attend that, if you have that sort of thing there?

Pavitra: Yeah, we did. We did. And it was just me. I was there for my convocation with all of my closest, you know, my tribe, my friends.

Yeah. The people that I was really close to. And it was just a wonderful experience. We did not throw our hats up in the air. Yeah, that was something we did not do. But I think we did a mandatory celebration after, and it was just wonderful. 

Catherine: I often see those and think, how do they all find their hats again?

Because normally you have to return them back to the place,right? The rental company. 

Pavitra: You do, you do. I don't think we did that. It was still wonderful anyway. 

Catherine: Wow. And then was it soon after that, that you returned back to India? 

Pavitra: It was. It was my dream to work in London and I wanted to go the training contract route and, you know, sort of get into one of the magic circle firms and work there.

But then when I met the guy who I pretty much knew I was going to marry at some point, and him being a shippy, and the nature of his job sort of dictated that I relocate and I go back to India because it just made things logistically easier for him to join the ship and deboard and be in India rather than waste time applying for a visa to come to the UK.

And, you know, that was one of my biggest concentrations for deciding to return to India. Although I did sort of follow my heart, I also did think about it, and I spoke to people, and I think around 2005, 2006 was when India was really, the economy was really booming, and people I spoke to, like lawyers, established lawyers I spoke to, said that it depends on where you work.

And if you can get into one of the top law firms in India, then frankly speaking, it's going to be as good an experience for you as being in magic circle. If not even better, considering that you are in India, qualified lawyer. So with that, you know, armed with that advice and also knowing what I wanted to do for my personal reasons I applied, and I got into AZB & Partners, which is one of India's top law firms.

And that's when I returned to Mumbai and I started working there from 2006. 

Catherine: Right, but how did you find out about AZB? Did you have a whole Excel sheet with all these names of firms on, or was this something that drew you into that firm? Because I will say I have been reading recently about AZB and I found an amazing article written about Zia Mody, the founder, and managing partner of AZB.

And I wondered if she may have been part of what drew you into the practice. And that was my hunch before talking with you today.

Pavitra: It is so interesting that you're asking me that because I wasn't going to go into it. But when I was doing the two years of training, straight out of law school, The building that I worked in my office was on the third floor.

And I used to actually walk up the three floors and just go to this office. And on the second floor was this office called chambers of Zia Mody. And I just thought, oh, what a fascinating name? Chambers of Zia Mody. And then of course I did a bit of asking around and so Zia comes from an extremely sort of distinguished legal background herself, but she's entirely self-made. When I read about her, or rather at that time it was more speaking to people because there wasn't so much press about her at that point, I just loved what people were telling me.

She just seemed like a complete breath of fresh air. And I thought to myself that at some point it would be so nice if I could work with Zia. I used to think that just walking up the steps to this office, but never really consciously thought it was going to happen.

So when I applied to law firms in India, when I was, you know, thinking of returning to India after my masters, I only applied to two law firms, actually. One was Zia, and the other was at that time, it was Amarchand Mangaldas. I finally decided to start working with Zia because when I met her, you have to meet Zia, I think, to actually understand what a force she is.

And it was just, there was no question, you know, that I would not work with her after I met her and interviewed with her. 

Catherine: Wow. That's amazing. I mean, she's a woman after my own heart because she's a legal entrepreneur and the article written about her talks about legal entrepreneurship. And I think she really is a pioneer, inspiring a whole generation of corporate lawyers.

Pavitra: She absolutely is. She’s just wonderful, leads by example. I consider her like a lifelong mentor and she's just wonderful. Yeah.

Catherine: So how was it working with her? What were some of the things that really stand out for you about her? Maybe a couple of things that made you think, wow, I'm so glad I took the offer up that they offered me to join this practice.

Pavitra: She was all about heart, Catherine, and I could feel that right away. It's just, sometimes you just form this connection with people. It just happens at a very sort of a gut level. And that's actually what happened for me. And I still remember when I was joining Zia and I said, oh, Zia, you know, I mean, I'd love to join you, after she made me the offer and I said, where do I sign?

And she said to me, she said, oh no, we don't sign anything here. And I said, oh, but then, you know, how does that work? And she said to me, she said, just go out and talk to people and they will tell you that Zia's word is her bond. I did go out and I spoke to people and I mean, she just had this wonderful reputation in the market for being someone who's so, she's just all about fairness and she just does the right thing. And that was way back, even before I joined her, that's what people were telling me. And they said that if that's what Zia’s saying, you just take her word for it. So that was before I joined her.

And then when I joined her, there were a few things she taught me, which I took with me when I left AZB, and I think the advice that she would give all of her young lawyers was just take ownership of your work product, own what you're putting out there. And that means be responsible for the content, do your research, you make mistakes, you own up and you try and fix your mistakes. Do everything you can to own your product.

And the second thing that she taught me was, when you work, remember that there's nothing more important than the letterhead of the firm. And that again, when you really think about it, it just says a lot. And I think that those two things I carried with me when I left AZB. And then also in terms of setting an example for other women, especially, you know, she's all about empowering women in the workforce.

And I remember reading an interview about Zia and it said, you know, like what about the proverbial glass ceiling? And she said, you've just got to smash right through it on merit. And that's what she had done. And that's what she was training her young lawyers, her young women lawyers to do.

And those kinds of things, I heard them at the very beginning stages of my career and that really stayed with me. And a lot of other women lawyers, I suspect. 

Catherine: Well, I think it's amazing through you we've just received a whole lot of amazing information about how to be a very good, not only a lawyer, but also a very good person in this universe.

And you still keep in touch with her?

Pavitra: Yes, absolutely. And there's a lot of BD that happens between, business development, Japan and India. And whenever she, so pre pandemic, she would make at least one trip a year to Japan and I would always meet her, and go out to dinner or something.

I've stayed in touch with her. And in fact, we will be talking about this later, but you know, I'm actually in the middle of a career move right now. And she was one of the first people I informed outside of Mori Hamada that I was actually going to be changing my job. So yes, I'm very much in touch and she is very much still cheering me on and that actually means a lot to me.

Catherine: Wow. That's amazing. And I guess too, that moving away from her firm, to come to Japan, that's a story in itself. So tell us a little bit about that, because it seems to me moving from such an amazing mentor for you, right? A lady who you worked with and moving to Japan and all of that. How did that come about that next phase?

I'm so excited to hear about this because I haven't actually heard your stories. So tell us. 

Pavitra: It's a long story, Catherine, so I'm going to try and make it really short and interesting. So I worked at AZB from 2006 until 2009. So, like I said, the environment was just amazing and Zia plus all the other lawyers I worked with at AZB, including very, very strong, wonderful women partners.

There's no way I would have quit AZB honestly, but I had also just gotten married and remember I married a shippy, the nature of whose work was that he would sail for about six months in the year. And then he'd be back ashore for say two months or a little more than two months. And then I discovered that it was kind of difficult being a full-time M&A lawyer, and then trying to make the most of those two months that he was on shore leave.

And in all fairness actually AZB tried. It's really, it's best to balance out my work so that it is cyclical by nature, but there's not always going to be an entire two months of downtime, you know, and after trying that for a little while and for certain other personal reasons, I really decided that I had to invest in my marriage a little bit.

And so I actually spoke to Zia, I spoke to the firm, and they said that I could take six months off as a sabbatical. And to just go with my husband and sail with him. And that's what I decided to do. And then to come back to AZB. Towards the end of 2009, I actually joined my husband on the ship and we sailed.

Yeah, it was amazing.

So I actually sailed with him for about five months. And so he has worked for many years for a Shosen Mitsui and he used to sail at that time on their LNG carriers. So towards the end of my sabbatical, when I was actually getting ready to come back to AZB, he got this wonderful, wonderful opportunity to actually come to the head office of Shosen Mitsui in Japan for a year.

Again, because having been together for six months, I just felt that I wanted that year, of being on the sea is very different from living as a couple on shore. And yeah, I thought that would be probably the only time that we would have to be able to do that. And so I went back to Mumbai, spoke again to AZB.

And after that, you know, seven months, I actually then actually properly quit my job at that point and moved to Japan, to be with my husband for what was supposed to be a year. And that was in 2010. 

Catherine: Right. And we’re in 2021 right now. 

Pavitra: I think Japan does that to people, you know?

Catherine:  Yes indeed, oh my goodness.

So you came here with your husband. What surprised you when you landed on shore in Japan? 

Pavitra: So I had first been to Japan when, I first actually saw Japan first, when I was sailing with him because the ship would actually load in one of the ports in the middle east, it was natural gas, and many of the customers were these big Japanese sort of energy companies.

And so a lot of the discharging would happen in Japan and we'd get a day. So my husband would be really busy during that time. And so I would get off at all of these little ports that you don't even know are there. And I just see a little bit of the terminal side and very, very small parts of Japan.

And it was all just very, very different for me at that point. And when I landed here, it was actually on Christmas day of 2010. And so Japan was of course shut for the Nenmatsu, for the year end holidays. We just traveled, we went to Roppongi for a little bit and everything, and I was like, Hmm, this is really nice.

And then when the year opened for business in 2011, and my husband went back to work and I went to this supermarket to pick up stuff. And everything was in Japanese. And I had no idea if I was buying milk, if I was buying yogurt, if I was buying sugar or salt, you know, I was looking for stuff with a picture of a cow on it.

And that's what I thought was milk. And it ended up being like normal yogurt, drinking yogurt. So there were all these little teething problems. And I decided that if I was going to be here for a year to actually enjoy my time in Japan, I would really have to pick up the language.

I checked and thank goodness for the internet. I found this really nice language school in Minami Aoyama. And I signed up for classes within like two weeks of getting here. And then I became a full-time student of Japanese. 

Catherine: How was that then, from working in your home country, being on the boat with your husband and then coming to Japan to be a student, how did all that feel? 

Pavitra: Being with him on the ship was life-changing I think because there's a lot that we think as lawyers, we have it bad, or we have it really hard, but being with him on the ship gave me a different perspective on stress.

It also gave me a newfound appreciation for a lawyer's life. And I realized actually how much I loved being a lawyer when I was not doing it anymore. It was just a wonderful life altering experience, Catherine, and just being there and just seeing the stars from the middle of the ocean, in the middle of the night, I mean, watching sunsets because I was never a sunrise kind of person.

So all of that was actually life-changing for me, both personally and, as I said, it also taught me to have an appreciation for my profession in ways I never thought possible before going on the ship. And then armed with that, when I came to Japan, I still thought it was just going to be a year of work.

And there was always this understanding. I would go back to Mumbai and rejoin AZB. But being a student actually. So I had nothing, I had zero knowledge of Japanese and my classmates were students, they were basically Chinese and there were European students who already had studied Japanese for a couple of years.

So I was actually sort of rushing to catch up. And I would joke at that point that I've come from being a lawyer at AZB, the law firm, to being a student at the AZB language school, because it was actually that difficult and that challenging for me, stressful actually. 

But I loved it, you know, wonderful teachers, wonderful group of friends.

And then it was the opportunities that even trying to speak the language, sort of two months into learning it, opened up. I mean, people really appreciated the fact that you were even trying. And I think that kind of was a huge part in making us feel more at home in Japan. 

Catherine: I think it's really amazing too, what you said, and I don't want to gloss over it because it's really critical that you loved it. Right? Loved being a lawyer by not doing it anymore. 

So finding out more about yourself, that that really was your true calling through doing something different, being on the ship. Studying Japanese. I think that's something that we probably don't really get to experience often. I think you've had an amazing experience there by being taken out of law for a moment and realizing I really love it.

Pavitra: I was actually out of the profession for a little over four years because it was six, seven months of sailing and then a year and a half of Japanese and then two years of waiting to go back to India. And then my husband telling me, oh, there's just another extension of my contract. And then finally deciding that this was probably going to be like a much longer extension and then Mori Hamada happening and me just grabbing it with both hands when it did.

Catherine: So Mori Hamada happening, that sounds like it landed in your lap, but I think there must be a little bit more to that. How did you go about finding that role and how did it actually land in your lap later after you'd done all the work to find it? Tell us about that.

Pavitra: Coming to Japan and for about two and a half years while I was here, so as I said, one and a half years was basically all about Japanese. And then a year after that, I was waiting to go back to India. So I actually wasn't even looking at opportunities in Japan, but right around my third year in Japan, the Japan/India corridor really started opening up. A lot of big deals started happening.

And interestingly, it was actually a partner from AZB who had come here for a seminar who actually introduced me to some partners at Mori Hamada. And yeah, because I was still very much attached to AZB by virtue simply of not even working anywhere. I met this partner for breakfast and breakfast carried over into lunch and he said, Hey, I'm meeting some partners at Mori Hamada for lunch and why don't you come along with me?

And I know today what a big deal that was for Mori Hamada, with an uninvited guest just showing up with this partner for a lunch meeting, but they really managed in style. And that's when I first met Mori Hamada. But even after that, it was like a year still of not knowing if I was going to be in Japan or going back to India.

And I think finally four years in when all parties knew, my husband knew and I had realized that I was not going back. And then I kind of just decided that I need to really start looking for something here because four years is actually a pretty long time to be out of the profession, especially as a mergers and acquisitions lawyer.

So there was already that initial introduction via AZB and that's actually how Mori Hamada happened. 

Catherine: Wow. So how did the person who actually employed you, the hiring partner, how did that person connect with the lunch? Is there some connection then? Is it the same person or is it a different person within the firm?

Pavitra: It was a different person, but actually my hiring partner, she's a wonderful lady, again, a wonderful lady lawyer in my life. So at that time she was actually heading up the India practice at Mori Hamada. Mori Hamada kind of knew that there was this Indian lawyer sitting here who speaks a fair amount of Japanese and is not actually doing anything.

You know, it was all pretty organic actually. And I met them and it was just a wonderful office in a wonderful location. Oh, I have to say this, you know, the first time, so I was always kind of a Shibuya Minami, Aoyama kind of person, because that's where my Japanese language school was. And the first time I actually saw Marunouchi was when I came for this lunch with the AZB partner.

And I remember walking down Nakadori and thinking, man, would I love to work here. It's amazing. And it was about autumn and I mean, it was just glorious. I think, Catherine, it was serendipity. And I know that you've covered this in one of your previous podcasts with Mindy, but I really think that this was serendipity at its best in my case, you know. 

Catherine: It's fantastic. It's like the role found you rather than you finding it. 

Pavitra: Yeah, but I also do like to think that I was probably subconsciously preparing for it without even knowing I was because just studying Japanese and learning Japanese is actually what enabled us to even think about being here long-term. It came and when it came, I just sort of welcomed it with both arms.

Catherine: Fantastic. And so how has being in Japan, doing the kind of law you've been doing, and the soft skills, which I think are hard skills really, language and culture. How have they made you the lawyer that you wanted to be?

Pavitra: So I am very much a work in progress. The thing about working with an international Japanese firm, like Mori Hamada, is that it's just the variety of work that you're able to do.

So I am primarily an M&A lawyer and the bulk of my experiences, Indian or M&A, but being here allowed me to work on other jurisdictions M&A, which I would not have had a chance to do otherwise. It's just constantly learning. So when you're interacting with lawyers from different jurisdictions, I think you actually get to understand a lot about the different styles in which legal advice is given.

And you just absorb so much without even realizing, or doing so by just looking at different ways in which things are done. And even if you talk about just a firm like Mori Hamada, there are so many lawyers and so many different partners, and depending on who you work with, you're again imbibing all of these different things from people by osmosis almost, I think.

And, and then actually the last few years. So since I had my daughter, I actually was working part time and it was a little difficult being a full-time M&A lawyer until she was a little older. And so I then actually Mori Hamada gave me this wonderful opportunity to work with the international disputes team on some arbitration cases.

And that was, again, something that I don't think I would have had a chance to do otherwise. And I just learned so much, and it was such fun for me, being a more junior lawyer, working with lawyers with a lot more experience on something as fascinating as international commercial arbitration.

So it's just taught me so much. There have been so many opportunities to learn and grow, and I'm just so grateful that I had that.

Catherine: Wow. It's amazing. And I think you're one of those people who you mentioned before, you either come to Japan and you leave or you come and you stay for a while. You can't get it out of your system.

And so you've mentioned a couple of good things already, but are there another couple of positives you would take away from working in that big law firm for the last, is it eight years? 

Pavitra: Yeah, it's eight years actually.

Catherine: What comes up? What comes up, one or two things that you'd take away from the big law experience?

Pavitra: You know, it's interesting you should ask me that. And I've actually been thinking about this. It's fascinating that when I was leaving and when the news sort of, when people heard that I was leaving, I would get all these really sweet emails from my colleagues saying that we heard that you're graduating from MHM.

You know, that sotsugyou is used for to graduate, but it's also used when you leave a workplace. And it really got me thinking, I truly am graduating because in other countries you're leaving, you're moving on. It's only in Japan, I think, that you actually graduated from a workplace and that says a lot, doesn't it?

You've been there for a good amount of time and I think you sort of absorb a little bit of the DNA of the place. It's taught you, you've grown for the experience and I think it sort of prepares you for your next step in life, much like a graduation does. And that's really what I'm taking with me when I take this next step into my new role.

Catherine: That's right and calling it sort of graduation, as you've said, is really a cultural thing perhaps in Japan, you become the alum. You'll always be MHM’s alum. It's a badge of honor. It's not that you're taking away or moving away from them. You are always part of them, but you’re graduating and growing up, pulling your socks up and moving off to do something else.

Pavitra: I've just been told, you know, just things like just make us proud. And I think that's so sweet, you know, because you're so right, you are an alum and I think they're cheering you on and it's just wonderful. 

Catherine: Wow. Super, super. Make us proud. Well, what are you going to do to make them proud?

Because you have so exciting news to tell us about your next chapter. Tell us your juicy, juicy, exciting news. 

Pavitra: Okay. So the juicy, exciting news. I will be joining later this month on the 19th actually, I am joining a law firm called TKI, Tokyo international law office. And it's a boutique, M&A, cross-border M&A firm. It's a little over two years in existence and a wonderful, wonderful team of young and hungry lawyers.

They are poised on the cusp of this amazing growth story. The way I see it, I'm really just fortunate to just jump on board at the right time. 

Catherine: So there are things there that you'll be able to do in the new firm that you probably couldn't do before that some doors may open for you in a different way.

Pavitra: Yeah, I think so. So I think the main difference for me is going to be that I'm actually transitioning back to a full-time position. So having been a part-time lawyer for the last four years since I returned from maternity leave, one thing is that I've actually not been able to do much M&A work because of the nature of the practice.

And I'm now going back to a full-time role. So I definitely expect that I'm going to be able to be doing full-time M&A work, and this being a cross border boutique M&A, I definitely expect more opportunities to come my way to do the kind of work that I love to do. And I think that there is a chance here to also see the internal workings of a firm, which is not something that you always get a chance to do, especially at a non-partner level in BigLaw.

I would love to learn about the commercial side of things that drive a firm, just learn more about the business side of a law firm. You know, we always talk about the business side of things. We talk about moving in-house to see the business side of things, but I also think there's a business side to running a law firm, which I would love to learn and be a part of, which I think TKI will give me the opportunity to do.

Catherine: Ooh, that’s very, very good, this perspective, right?

You don't actually have to go in-house, not necessarily only in-house being a place for commercial learning about the business and the business side of things. And certainly I will tell you Pavitra, running a law firm myself, you definitely learn about the business side of things. 

And I think that's going to be really amazing for you and perhaps be an even bigger enabler to your clients, if you're understanding the commercial way of running a firm as well. How do you think about that? 

Pavitra: I definitely think you hit the nail on the head Catherine, because when you're talking to clients and especially when you're advising clients on cross-border deals, right? A lot of the advice, a lot of the legal advice, especially tends to be focused on the legal aspects, which is great. And of course you want to give them the best legal advice, but I think that there's a whole practical aspect to it, which not only takes account of, for example, the cultural differences that you would know as a cross border international lawyer, but also of the internal functionings of a business. Isn't it? 

I mean, what are the economics that drive the client? What are the fundamentals of economics that drive any business? So I think learning things like that informs your decisions from a very practical perspective as a lawyer. And I definitely think that that makes you a more trusted advisor, you know, rather than a legal advisor, it makes you a more trusted and a more wholesome advisor. I mean, I would hope so at least. And you can probably tell me about that.

Catherine: I can see you pulling in your London experience and also your experience in India with AZB and then Mori Hamada, it's all coming together, culminating to be this kind of place where you can really shine.

What's your dream for your new role? 

Pavitra: For me, something that I’m in equal parts excited and nervous about, as I said, is that I'm transitioning back to full time. And in a sense it's brand new, never had to do that. Also having a young toddler to raise. So for me, I think the initial few months is going to be all about finding that rhythm.

I want to do it. And I think that that's a huge thing. I am so motivated. And I'm so excited about this. And for me, I think it's sort of your mental makeup and it's taken me a while to get to the point to say that I can be a mother and I can be a full-time M&A cross-border transactional lawyer at the same time.

And once that sort of mental adjustment, mental switch has happened, I think it's a question of finding the right way of doing it. So for me, my first initial steps are going to be about that. The other thing I sort of want to also work on in my new role is definitely my Japanese skills. For example, in a place like, you know, Mori Hamada, you have so many amazing bilingual lawyers, you know, who are perfectly capable of both Japanese and English.

And so many times when you are an internationally qualified lawyer, your role is more on the legal side of things than on the back end of the communication side of things. And so I do feel that my Japanese has become a bit rusty and that's another immediate thing that I definitely want to work on.

It's an opportunity to just grow with the firm. I'm just really excited to see what this is going to be like, because it's something that I've never had a chance to experience before. 

Catherine: It's actually very hard to fake excitement. And I think I can most definitely hear your excitement and motivation in your voice, it's totally coming through.

Pavitra: Can you also hear my nervousness, Catherine, because there's a whole lot of that as well. 

Catherine: I think that's all part of it when you start something new, if you weren't nervous, such as I was, when I started my own firm, there's something has to be there, a little bit of nervousness, but also excitement counterweights on that, I think, too though. And so what's going to happen? 

Are you having your daughter in childcare, because I'm very interested to sort of move into how your routine’s going to be. You have the sort of things that you do in the first part of the morning to get yourself starting on your day. So how's that going to work with your daughter and everything else? Tell us about your routine. 

Pavitra: So my routine, as cliche as it sounds, I like to divide it into BC and AC. BC being before a child and AC being after child, and BC, it was whatever I wanted it to be, Catherine. And now it's literally how she decides it's going to be.

So, you know, morning, it's typically the morning and then the winding down, right? And my mornings are entirely driven by how she wakes up. And most days she wakes up and her first question to me is, before she even says good morning, she says is it a school day today? And, and that's like every day. It's her reaction to my response to that question, which kind of sets the tone for the day.

I mean, do I have to get into damage control mode or is this going to be an easy day? Do I have to resort to bribery? So it's all of those things. So it's really all about getting her ready for school and getting her out the door by nine o'clock. So she goes to hoikuen. We thought about international schools, international preschools and things like that, but I definitely wanted her to have the proper Japanese experience.

And so we decided on a hoikuen for her. It's been wonderful. She's picking up Japanese and she's teaching them a little bit of English. I can see her already blossoming in such wonderful ways.

Catherine: She won't forget it when she grows up. 

Pavitra: I think so because it's very foundational, I think.

And then the winding down really, I mean, she's so exhausted when she comes back from the hoikuen because she doesn't sleep in the afternoons. And I think she gives her teachers, I mean, a real run for their money, just keeping her out of mischief. So when she comes back, it's all about just getting her fed before she's too cranky and then getting her into bed.

So in the evenings usually my husband and I, because he has a full-time job as well, we just try and spend, even if it's like, you know, 15 minutes together. I like to say that we talk about things, but I think most days we're just so exhausted we're literally just sitting next to each other and saying nothing, you know, but it's just companionship in whatever form it comes and yeah, that's the winding down.

So I think the arrangement of the hoikuen is a lifesaver because she is there from nine to five. And I look at that as the bulk of my working day. And when I go back to full-time actually, I've sort of spoken to my husband about this because it's so important to have your support systems in place.

And it's so important to have the people you're with on board with your professional life as well. And so he’s agreed to take the load over from five o'clock to say eight o'clock or nine o'clock in the evenings. I do bedtime. And then I get back to working after that if need be.

Although I'm hoping that most days I will not have to work beyond say eight o'clock. I think that nine to eight is a good work day and you can get a lot done in that time. So this is what I've thought. And this is my plan. A, I do not have a plan B, but I'm just hoping that I can figure it out, with my husband’s support.

Catherine: Sure. And we look forward to hearing an update on that. Maybe during our Women in Law Japan phone calls that we have. And I'm just so excited for you. And so roundabout now, after being at your Italian restaurant and having one or two red or white glasses of wine, we would probably be going a little bit deeper.

And I'm really interested to also know about traits that you have that you're most proud of. And I'm thinking resilience really sounds like it's one of yours, but what would you say is one of your inner traits that you're really most proud of?

Pavitra: I consider myself to be a lifelong learner. I just think that there's so much I have left to learn.

And I think that makes me really, really curious, and it makes me ask a lot of questions, but it also gives me an amount of humility, which I think is good, I think. And I do think that that's one of my strengths. I think someone might think of it as weakness, but I actually look at it as awareness.

I just like to learn, I like to ask questions and if there's something that I don't know, I'm not scared to admit that I don't know. And I do think that that is one of my strengths. It's also great to hear you say resilient because my professional path especially, has not been the straight and narrow.

I've had large chunks out of the profession, which I think could have been four and a half years or something like that. And you think that, hey, you know, I've just lost it. I don't have what it takes anymore. Whether it was coming back to Mori Hamada after the four-year break, or whether now it's going back to full-time after my four year part-time work, I think that I know that this is what I want to do, I love this job. And so that's another strength, just loving what I do, I think. 

Catherine: And that's why I think you are resilient. And when you came back in, after what is a long time, four and a half years, you didn't softly, softly make your way, and you landed straight into big four in Japan.

And so that really does show about your inner strength I believe.

Pavitra: I was also thrown into an Indian M&A deal at the time, which was in a sector I'd never done before. I think by the end of it, I felt I'd never been away from the professional role, you know? 

Catherine: Right. And it gives you that inner confidence that, you know, you may be away from something for a little while, but you can come back to it and you’re really not as rusty as you think you are.

Pavitra: I think you've hit the nail on the head because it's the basics, the fundamentals that you have. It's like swimming, right? You know at once and you know, when you get back into the water after years you may thrash around for a couple of minutes, but then you're swimming again. And I really believe that's what it is. 

Catherine: Wonderful. My goodness. Is there anything that you've done so far in your life, Pavitra, that you would want to do again, if you had another chance, or perhaps even something that you didn't do, and you'd love to have it as something you can give it a try?

Pavitra: There's something that I definitely would love to do again, and that is go sailing with my husband. I would love to do that again, Catherine. It was a one-off, but I think that it was an experience that was life-changing and if the opportunity presented itself again, at some point, I would definitely, definitely take it up.

Catherine: Wow. And I think also you've said that when you weren't practicing law, you knew that that was what you wanted to be, but if you were not a lawyer right now, if you think I’m not a lawyer, I'm not a lawyer, what do you think you would be instead? 

Pavitra: Okay. So there is the fantasy job, right? Which I know is never going to happen, but I've always been fascinated with the unknown and the mysterious.

So I would have probably liked to have been a space explorer. I would have liked to be like this sort of deep sea diver, equally exploring unknown spaces underwater. That's the fantasy job. And then there's the real thing that I could see myself doing maybe 20 years down the line.

And that is to have my own little bookstore. A really quaint little store full of these lovely books and the smell of books. I would love that.

Catherine: I've just got a visual of Notting Hill, that lovely movie. 

Pavitra: And if Hugh Grant would, I would want Hugh Grant to walk through of course, but, you know, yeah.

Catherine: I'd have him come through too. So, wow. That's really, really great. All of this information is leading me to think what sort of information or advice you'd give to younger lawyers, because there must be some really wise things that you've been told along your path, and even maybe something that someone told you that really wasn't very good advice.

So what about those kinds of things and offering those up for some lawyers who are listening to you today who are sort of setting out on their path, is there something there that you'd like to tell us?

Pavitra: Okay. So I think for younger lawyers, especially, I will actually just quote Zia on this. And I will just say the two things that I took away from AZB. 

One was to own your work product and the second is to really respect the letterhead of the firm. And because I think that makes you the kind of lawyer you are, and especially getting that sort of work ethic as a young lawyer is something that you keep with you wherever you go. But also the other thing I would say, and maybe not just for the young lawyers, but also, for more senior people is; we really should feel grateful for our jobs.

There is a whole lot of stress that we face and we are in the service industry and there are lots that we cannot predict. You can't plan for things, but at the same time, I think, and this is something that I realized when I was sailing, we are so lucky to be working ashore, where you may find a lot of things challenging and difficult, but you have resources readily available at hand.

My husband used to call me when he was sailing. So communicating with someone on a ship is so expensive, right? Because they used to have these satellite phones which are eye wateringly expensive and he would call me for like 15 minutes a week. And that was it. And so my entire schedule for the week would be planned around those 15 minutes that he said he would say that he would call me.

And I still remember this one time. He called me five minutes late and I spent the next five minutes arguing with him about how I shifted my meetings around. He was late and I only had a few minutes to speak with him. And he said to me, can we just save this for when I'm back home? And that made me even more argumentative and I said; oh, so you want to spend the two months you're on shore leave arguing with me about things. Let's just argue now and get this over and done with.

It was only when I went sailing with him that I actually realized what he meant, because when you're sailing and when you're away from the nearest sort of landfall by a week or more, that's actually when you realize what mental health conditions can actually, how serious they can get. Because anything that happens ashore tends to get exponentially sort of amplified when you're in the middle of the deep seas.

It's a very hypnotic experience, Catherine.

I've seen when people keep watch on the ship and there's just this inky, blackness all around, and there's really nothing there. And you're left with yourself and your thoughts, it can be empowering, but it can also be a pretty scary experience, I think. And so we are actually very fortunate to have all of these resources as lawyers, even when we have all of these challenges with mental health and the stresses that we face.

And I think that that is something that we really need to feel a little grateful for.

Catherine: Wow. I also went just there visually on a ship and surrounded by darkness. And it's probably one of my fears, you talked about deep sea diving before and I'm like, no, because it's too dark under the water.

And it really does make me scared. And so just saying that just makes me think as well about my own self, how lucky and fortunate I am and how we are. And so having that gratitude and never forgetting that is really, really amazing. And I was going to ask you, if you had the opportunity to call up your past self and offer a piece of wisdom to that past self, what would it be?

But I think you may have already said it. 

Pavitra: There's one thing I would tell myself if I could, and that would be, everyone says don't take the all or nothing approach, and that I'm so guilty of having done that. It's like all or nothing, but I would tell myself to let go of that.

But I would also tell myself, people say, let go of all or nothing, but then what else do you do? Because an all or nothing approach, I think it's a very, it's a sort of a character trait that you need to work on. It's not something that you just hit a switch and let it go, right? 

So had I known this way back, I would tell myself, yeah, try and let go.

But if that's something in your character that you cannot change, then just explore the in between while you're deciding whether you want it all or you want less. Just that exploration is more important than the actual decision that you make. And I really wish I'd known that way back. 

Catherine: Oh, that is really, really good. Very good. Hopefully people are listening to that, right? You can't tell your old self, but if you'd gone back and done that, that's really, really heartwarming to hear,

Well, we're going to head towards the very end of today, unfortunately, but I do want to ask you, Pavitra, if there's anything that we've not covered that you wanted to mention or something else that you have mentioned that you'd like to reemphasize. 

Pavitra: Not after this. I think I've said a whole lot about myself actually, but I also think that you've done a wonderful job of just making this such an organic and free flowing chat.

Catherine: Yeah. Okay. Well, thank you so much. That's lovely feedback. And we are going to head into the final super six, or maybe it is actually super seven now. A quick fire round of questions that I ask every guest to wind up the interview. And so we get to learn a little bit more about another side of you that we haven't already heard. I think you are multi multi-sided. 

But the first question is if I was to give you a million yen in cash, where in Japan would you spend it, your favorite store or a destination, or both even? 

Pavitra: So I think at this point it would have to be on travel. It's been so long since we went anywhere, in a meaningful way.

And then I also look at it as a social cause because I think the travel and the tourism industry has taken such a hit because of the pandemic. And if you can just give back and just get that industry back and up and running. I think it's a win-win. 

Catherine: Yeah. Who would have thought that the travel industry, hotels, et cetera, would have been a social cause? You've called it out. I think we heard it here first. That is amazing. 

How about a second question? Can you share a book or a podcast, I know you're into your books, that you've been reading or have read recently that you would like to recommend to others?

Pavitra: I recommend lawyer on air to everybody, of course. 

Catherine: Oh, of course, aside from that. 

Pavitra: You know, Catherine, that this is actually my introduction into podcasts.

And the only podcasts I've heard in the past have been music podcasts. I've heard a lot of those. Books are something that I've always, always been interested in. And I love my books. I do however find myself going back to the classics a lot. Something that I read again and again is my collection of Saki stories.

And there's no time to read novels now, especially with my job and my child, but I love to reread stories that make me think, and Saki is irreverent. He has just got a way of writing, which is fascinating. And I just have to go back and read his works. But one recent book that I read, and by recent I mean by a living author, it's this book called actually Burial Rights.

And it's actually about the last woman to be executed, part of the death penalty in Iceland. And it's actually a wonderful, wonderful book. It's not as grim as it sounds. And the writing is actually, it's just very evocative and it's very beautiful. 

Catherine: And I'm just thinking Iceland had executions? I didn't know that.

All right. That's going to be a book I have to read. It sounds absolutely amazing. Thank you for that. We'll put that in the show notes too. 

But is there a famous person or celebrity, Hugh Grant maybe, but is there a famous person or celebrity you would love to meet or have already met? 

Pavitra:  It would have to be Bono.

Catherine: Really?

Pavitra: Yeah. It would have to be Bono. I mean, I've just loved U2. It would have to be Bono, I think. Yes. If it had to be a celebrity and if I could pick one among the many that I would love to meet, it would be Bono I think. 

Catherine: Yeah. Maybe we need to tag him in the social media after this.

Pavitra: The power of social media. Right? You never know 

Catherine: Exactly. And so what's on your bedside cabinet in your home that inspires you. And why is that?

Pavitra: At the moment I of course have my Saki, but I also have this book by, okay, so it's by this author called Kahlil Gibran and it's a book called The Prophet. And this was actually a book that I had read way back in high school when I actually won it as part of a debate in college.

There were passages that he says there about being a parent, which I used to actually read out aloud to my mother when I was back in high school. And she used to hate it because it used to say things like, your children are not your children and they are born through you, but they don't come from you.

And it's basically things like that. And I used to just read them out just to tell her, just let me do what I want to do, whether you like it or not. And of course she never subscribed to that philosophy. But now that I have a child, she gently reminds me of it every now and I think that I could probably do with a little bit of that approach right now in life.

So I do actually read from Kahlil Gibran off and on, and I actually love the way he writes about the different parts of life, the different aspects of life. 

Catherine: Oh, how exciting. I'm interested in all of these things you've been telling us. Thank you. And also one last question, something about you that a lot of people don't know.

Pavitra: Do you mean after this podcast? There's not a whole lot, Catherine.

Catherine: There must be something. Up until now I would've said; did you know, I went sailing on a boat with my husband. I wouldn't have known that. Is there something else?

Pavitra: I think that I have to work really hard at being a good mother because it doesn't come to me naturally, but I think it's worth putting out there because I feel like sometimes there's this pressure on women to be maternal and to be the perfect mothers and it's work.

And that's not to say that you don't love your children, but what all I want to say is that there's different styles of mothering. There's different ways of mothering. And just because you don't love your infant, that comes bawling and howling the minute or the second you lay eyes on them doesn't mean that you're not a good mother and you can work on it.

And that's how it was for me. That's something I did not know about myself. So clearly it's not something a lot of people know about me. 

Catherine: Wow. That's perfect. Thank you so much. Well Pavitra, we've come to the end of your very first podcast. And you really have just had such a solid career that's meandered, but also going on a path that you don't actually realize at the time. You've got all these commercial areas of law and you've been leveraging your culture and language, Japanese language as well as your native tongue, and all of those skills have come together. And I'm really getting the image of you being such a very empathetic lawyer who's really driven, but hasn't forgotten the essence of her upbringing. And I think that's really all of those things you can be and bring to your life as a lawyer. Thank you so much.

Pavitra: Thank you so much, Catherine, thank you so much. 

Catherine: And so I'd really like others to be able to connect with you. How can they do that? Would that be on LinkedIn or via email? How should we do that? 

Pavitra: Yeah, I think LinkedIn would be great. And I will soon also be on the website of TKI from the 19th of October anyway so that will also find me. 

Catherine: Okay, so that's 19 October and we'll see you there on their website. Can't wait to see that. And so we'll put all of that in the show notes. So anyone who's interested in learning more about you and from you can just reach out to you. Is that right? 

Pavitra: Wonderful. Yeah, absolutely. 

Catherine: Great.

Well, I'll finish up here. We've had this fantastic conversation about so many things. I really thank you for coming on and being my third guest on season two of Lawyer on Air. And I really thank you too, for your honesty and openness in sharing your journey. 

Pavitra: Thank you, Catherine. It's been a wonderful experience and I really, really can't thank you enough for making this so easy and so enjoyable, thank you. 

Catherine: That's great. So for my listeners, please do listen to this episode and subscribe to Lawyer on Air and do drop us a short review, as that really helps Lawyer on Air be seen and heard by more people. And you can also actually go onto my webpage and leave me a voicemail.

And I also really just love hearing people telling their own story about the podcast in their actual voice. And we're also now out on YouTube, so you can catch us there. The other part of the information I'd love to give you is that I'm opening up a Lawyer Extraordinaire Mastermind in 2022 for women lawyers.

So please check my posts on that on LinkedIn and do go ahead, share this episode with any legal eagle or somebody who you love in your community who would enjoy listening to it, to be inspired to live a wonderful Lawyer Extraordinaire life. That's all from me. See you on the next episode. Cheers, kampai and bye for now.

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