Full transcript follows.

Legal career advice and stories of how to get yourself noticed for positions you can only dream of abound in Season Two Episode One with Lawyer Extraordinaire, Royanne Doi. Royanne has a way of explaining concepts that make you want to grab a pen and paper so you don’t miss anything. Make sure you have some ready for all the gold nuggets she has prepared for you. Royanne is not only a champion planner, and self-named “process queen” but also a master of noticing those moments of serendipity that have led her to land a dream job she didn’t know existed without even interviewing. How did she do it? Listen and find out! 

If you enjoyed this episode and it inspired you in some way, we’d love to hear about it and know your biggest takeaway. Head over to Apple Podcasts to leave a review and we’d love it if you would leave us a message here!

In this episode you’ll hear:

• The inspiration behind Royanne becoming a lawyer

• What happened when Royanne made a commitment to finding a job in Japan

• How asking a question at a large company event led to Royanne being offered the position she had been dreaming of

• Royanne’s “potted plant” theory and her list of top qualities of million dollar earning General Counsel

• The cosmic coincidences that helped Royanne to make amazing pivots even with her 10 year plan

• The reality of being an outside director on a board 

• The five levels of trusted advisory and which level you should be operating at

• Her favourite books and other fun facts 

About Royanne

Royanne Doi is currently an Outside Director to Gojo & company, a social impact start-up company investing in micro-finance banks in emerging markets.  She also teaches an executive MBA course at Hitotsubashi University Business School, School of International Corporate Strategy. Her course is called “Leading Across Culture and Diversity.”

Royanne most recently served as Advisor for Global Legal, Ethics & Compliance for Yamaha Corporation. Prior to her experience with a global Japan-based manufacturing music company, Royanne held senior legal positions with major financial institutions including Prudential Financial, Inc., State Street Bank and Trust Company and CIGNA/ACE Insurance. 

Her business experiences includes global whistleblower hotlines, transcultural management issues, legal, regulatory and trade issues in financial services, multiple regulatory examinations, compliance policies and procedures, back and middle office outsourcing, Human Resources issues, governance issues for directors and shareholders, management of litigation, claims and legal risk, legal support for launching business products/services in highly regulated environments, advocacy with regulators and policy makers, legal department management and procedures, acquisition and integration of departments and business lines.  

In addition to her current role as Representative Director of the US-Japan Council (Japan board), Royanne has served on various volunteer boards including the Japan In-house Counsel Network, the Association for Women in Finance in Japan, and the American Chamber of Commerce in Japan, and was the treasurer/director of the Japan-United States Education Commission (“Fulbright Japan”).

Royanne has an undergraduate degree in Philosophy, from Washington University in St. Louis, graduating Magna Cum Laude, Phi Beta Kappa.  She earned her Juris Doctorate from UCLA School of Law. She is a member of the California bar. She has lived in Japan since 1994, married for 30+ years to her law school sweetheart.  She has three passions: economic empowerment for women, Asia with an emphasis on Japan, and the intersection between neuroscience and behavioral ethics.   

Connect with Royanne

To connect with Royanne, please contact Catherine O’Connell.

Links

The Trusted Advisor: https://www.amazon.co.jp/Trusted-Advisor-David-H-Maister/dp/0743207769 

Connect with Catherine 

Linked In https://www.linkedin.com/in/oconnellcatherine/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lawyeronair

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/catherine.oconnell.148

Twitter: https://twitter.com/oconnelllawyer

Transcript

Catherine: Hi, everyone. Welcome to the first episode in Season Two of Lawyer on Air, I'm Catherine O’Connell. Today I'm joined by Royanne Doi, who is a corporate governance specialist. Royanne is currently an outside director to Gojo and company. Gojo is a social impact startup company that invests in micro-finance banks in emerging markets around the world.

Royanne is also teaching an executive MBA course at Hitotsubashi University Business School, School of International Corporate Strategy in Tokyo. Her course is called “Leading Across Culture and Diversity”, which is a real passion for Royanne. Born and raised in Hawaii, Royanne earned her undergraduate degree in philosophy from Washington University in St. Louis, graduating Magna Cum Laude, Phi Beta Kappa. She earned her Juris Doctorate from UCLA Law school, and she is a member of the California State Bar. Royanne had her first law role in the LA office of an east coast based law firm, first as a law clerk and then as a business litigation associate. Then she was an insurance and business litigation associate in Hawaii and California until 1994, when she then crossed the ocean and came to Japan. 

Royanne married her law school sweetheart about 30 years ago and we will hear about those early life stories as we talk together today. In Japan, Royanne has had a number of top level roles in her career, based from Japan but with a global reach. Prior to where she is now at Gojo and company, Royanne served as advisor for global legal ethics and compliance for Yamaha corporation, the global Japan-based manufacturer of musical instruments and audio equipment.

Royanne’s Yamaha role was preceded by over 20 years of heavyweight senior legal positions with a number of major financial institutions, including Prudential Financial Inc., State Street Bank and Trust Company, and CIGNA/ACE Insurance. During Royanne’s tenure as a global ethics officer at Fortune 100 company, Prudential Financial, that company received Ethisphere’s designation as one of the world's most ethical companies for the first time in 2015 and multiple times thereafter. While at Prudential, Royanne’s span of control was at its peak 150 plus staff around the world with business experience in North and South America, Asia and Europe.

In addition to her current role at Gojo company, Royanne is also representative director of the US-Japan Council (Japan Board). Royanne has actually served on various volunteer boards, including the Japan In-house Counsel Legal Network, where we both work together, the Association of Women in Finance in Japan and the American Chamber of Commerce in Japan.

Royanne was the treasurer and director of the Japan-United States Education Commission, also known as Fulbright Japan. Royanne is known very well for her three passions, economic empowerment of women, Asia with an emphasis on Japan, and the intersection between neuroscience and behavioral ethics. I'm sure you'll see how these golden threads of passion weave their way through all the activities Royanne immerses herself in. 

I've had the pleasure of working with Royanne for the past several months on a governance task force, where she leads our group with authenticity of opinion, tenacity and determination, and I very much admire and look up to her and learn from her every day. We also love sharing our branding and styling techniques together.

Royanne is an example of yet another wonderful way to lead a life as a lawyer. And I'm so proud and excited to bring Royanne Doi to you as my guest today. Royanne welcome to the show! 

Royanne: Thanks Catherine. Well, that was a really long bio, but yes, thank you. 

Catherine: You’ve done such a lot. And today we are going to be talking about all of those things.

Lots of topics; your early days in the US, what brought you into the law, your journey into Japan, landing a massive role in Japan that you always wanted, your long-term career in Japan, your current board role mentorship, and your passion for neuroscience. And I'd also really love it if you would offer up some gems of advice for what young lawyers should be thinking about for their careers in law and beyond, how does that sound?

Royanne: I’m ready.

Catherine: Great. Well today we're talking online, but if we were meeting up in person, and I really hope we can do that soon, where would we be? Do you have a favorite wine bar or cafe or restaurant that you love to go to and what would be your choice of beverage off the menu today?

Royanne: Well it’s interesting because I do like a lot of different restaurants, but my favorite drink is one that I made myself, because I don't drink alcohol, and I call it my quarantini because it was made in the middle of the COVID-19 pandemic and it is pressed juice. So it's basically beets, carrots, lemon, lime, orange, apple, and kale, which I process at home and drink in a little teeny, tiny martini glass so that it feels special. And I have basically a shot of that every night before I go to bed.

Catherine: Wow, you have it before you go to bed? 

Royanne: Yeah. Either, not just before, but basically towards the end of the day. It's a little, it's kind of a sweet drink because of the sugar, beets and carrots and the fruits, surprisingly sweet. So I just get a little shot of something sweet and then brush my teeth, et cetera.

But yes, it's my favorite drink, the Royanne Doi special quarantini. 

Catherine: I was just about to ask you, does it have a name, but I think that's a perfect name. That is so lovely. I hope I can try that out myself. I'll take down the ingredients later and make it and see if I can do it just as well as you. 

Royanne:  Well, if we can see each other in person, I'll bring you a small bottle.

Catherine: Thank you so much. That's wonderful. You and I have known each other for many years, Royanne. I think it's even over 16 years. And I remember one of the first times I met you was when I was working at Panasonic. And I traveled up to Tokyo from Osaka for a round table. I think it was an in-house counsel round table in Tokyo.

And it must have been around 2005 or six. And I think you were at State Street then, and I remember feeling so scared of you and in awe of you at the same time, it was this paradox. And I really wanted to try and aspire to replicate the kind of presence that you had in the room at that time, guiding that meeting.

Do you remember that meeting?

Royanne: I have to confess that I don't remember the specific meeting. I do feel like we've known each other forever. But I give a lot of speeches because as you know I really care about the law and women lawyers in general. And so I have sat on a lot of panels, et cetera.

I have to tally up all of the speeches I've given in the last four years and it was over 150. Sorry, I don't remember that particular one.

Catherine: I was probably another person in the room, but you were so distinctive. And I remember your fantastic array of jewelry that you had, that sparkled in my eyes. It was just a really significant meeting for me in my personal history because you were entirely inspiring to me at that point.

And then after that, I had the pleasure of joining the Japan In-house Counsel Network. And at that time you were a president and you ran such a tight ship. And I remember all of the standard operating procedures you created for events and getting in touch with speakers and sending thank you notes.

You're just legendary and I've actually stolen those, or should I say borrowed them for events that I run now with Women in Law Japan and other organizations. So thank you for that. They were really foundational documents that I continue to use to this day. 

Royanne: Oh, thanks. My former boss used to call me, my nickname was PQ: process queen, because I like to have a lot of steps so that people can get stuff done.

Catherine: I have learned from you and I've quoted you on various things since, that you've made me become a bit more of a process princess perhaps. I'm not quite a queen yet. That's been great. And so I never really thought that I would end up working alongside you having seen you back in the day at that meeting, but I do love that we get together for formal meetings, but we also have time for a more relaxed, casual banter that we do as well.

And I just really think it's such a great pleasure for me to have you on my podcast today. 

Royanne: Oh, it's funny that I talk about being, having no problems to speak in front of people, 30 people, 300 people, a thousand people, but podcasts, as you know, are my Achilles heel. And so I would not do it for anyone other than you, Catherine, because I'm so enamored with your podcast and it does hit the trifecta of the things I care about, right? Asia, ethics in law, and women's empowerment. So can't say no to that. 

Catherine: Very much so. Thank you so much. I feel very privileged. So I think it's great to start off with your career background. And so let's look at your early days because you've got several pivotal points and I'd like to take those one by one.

And I know that first is how you came to be a lawyer. The second would be coming to Japan and the third would be grabbing that dream job that I talked about at the very beginning there. So let's dive into your first chapter. I often ask guests what they wanted to be when they were a child.

So I'm curious to hear what that was for you, because I know you often talk about your soft spot for underdogs and seeing things from the perspective of the other person. So are those notions or ideas that you had from an early age? How did all of that lead to you becoming a lawyer? 

Royanne: It was an interesting start.

I've always wanted to be a lawyer since I was 12 or 13. In seventh grade I had an English teacher who gave us an essay writing assignment. And she said, please write an essay about what you want to be when you grow up. And I really hadn't thought about anything in particular, but I thought, oh, I might want to become a judge.

I'm a baby boomer. President Kennedy was alive when I was a baby. And so I got to see the tail end of the American civil rights movement. And at the time judges were making big social change with their rulings. And so I thought I might want to become a judge or a lawyer. And my parents helped me make an arrangement to meet, to interview with a little cassette tape recorder where you push the button, two buttons down to tape the interview.

So I interviewed this nice lawyer and he introduced me to a female judge, Judge Betty Vitousek of Hawaii. And she was the head of the family court at the time. And she was so generous. Lovely woman, may she rest in peace. And she agreed to let me interview her. She told me about how I have to go to, not only do I have to graduate from a four year college, but I also have to go to law school, which is an additional three years.

So I promptly went home and told my dad; hey, I have seven years of education to go through. And he said, I'll pay for college, but you need to find your own way to fund law school. And so I was very, this is 13, 12, 13 years old. So I was like, okay, my family doesn't have a whole lot of money. 

So I have to plan this carefully. And I was set on my goal of becoming a judge, going to law school, becoming a judge at a very young age. I didn't really want to be anything else. 

Catherine: Wow. It's amazing how you talk about that needing to know, or going to law school first in order to become a judge. Because it's interesting in Japan, isn't it? The system that law school trainee graduates can choose immediately if they want to go down the lawyer path, prosecutor or judge. And I remember first hearing about that and I thought that's rather interesting, how can you be a judge without having lived a bit of an experience as a litigator in court, but that's the Japan system.

So I find that very interesting. And actually, on this podcast, we haven't really talked with anyone about being a judge or about being a judge as another way to lead a life in the law. So if you don't mind, I'd just like to pause a little moment here, because just before we go into your second pivot, just to talk about how that meeting was that impactful for you.

Did you ever see any other lawyers who were judges who impacted you at all? I remember growing up with Judge Judy and then of course, Ruth Bader Ginsburg last year, Justice of the Supreme Court who passed away. But is there anyone else who came across your path then as a female judge who impressed you?

Royanne: I'm so old that actually at the time there was no female Supreme Court Justice. So I didn't have any kind of exposure to think about whether it would be difficult or not. The great thing about what we call the power of the mirror is as long as you can see it, then you believe you can do it.

And since I had met a real judge, female judge in person, it never occurred to me that it would be difficult to get into law school or challenging to become a female lawyer. It just seemed all possible at that very young age, luckily. And just the fact that she existed and that I had a chance to meet her was enough to put me on the path.

I was the first lawyer in my family. I'm a fourth generation American of Japanese ancestry. And so family wasn't, mom and dad were pretty poor when they were younger. Dad was a boys club member and both my parents were the first in their families to go to university. So I had no idea that it was going to be a bit of a stretch for me to go to law school.

But by the time I got there, I was, there was no stopping me. So it was nice. It was, I think it was very lucky actually to meet somebody so early on and not have any kind of impediment in my path. I just saw it and thought it was possible. So of course, why not me? 

Catherine: Seeing somebody in the mirror and being able to think about that, because you've actually seen the role model or the model of what could be, that's just so important, I think, when we're young. And like you I didn't have any lawyers in my family and my dad was an engineer, so it wasn't there. But I did see people in my life too, who inspired me. But I think that story you tell is amazing. 

So when you decided to come to Japan, which is the second chapter, so let's turn the page over to your second chapter, when you did that, I guess your mum and dad may have been a little sad to see you go. Tell us about that second story, how it came to be, how you came to Japan. And because before you left the US to come here, you'd been a litigation attorney, I believe, at your first or second roles. How did that happen that you came to Japan and then secure your first role here as a legal government affairs representative? Because I think that's also a really interesting story. 

Royanne: Yeah. I think it's, lots of people have heard of it. So I didn't even have a passport until I was much older, I want to say 29 ish, because from the time that I was three to the time that I was 25, I basically was going to school. So I started nursery school early, and then I just went straight through without a break.

So I didn't really have a chance to travel abroad. I had friends in law school who, after they graduated, went on the grand tour of Europe. Basically once I took the bar exam in July, I needed to go to work immediately in August because I was about to run out of money and I couldn't pay rent. I needed to work in the beginning of August so I could pay rent.

I had no plans whatsoever to travel abroad. Didn't have a passport, had a driver's license. I could go to Mexico and Canada basically. I married my law school sweetheart, and he got promoted to partner before, he was ahead of me in school. But he got promoted to partner and a lot of his clients were Japanese.

So his law firm wanted to send him to Japan for a couple of years, one or two years, so that he could meet in person and work with his Japanese clients. So I'm tootling along in my, I got my ten-year plan, I'm working on my litigation career and he walks in the door and says, yeah, so let's go to Japan. And I’m like, What?

So he convinced me that two years is not so long and I'll learn the language. I can learn Japanese, be fluent in two years. Little did I know. Japanese is one of the top three most difficult languages to learn and you need to study intensively for seven years, but he persuaded me that it would be a great little break.

So I put my litigation files into storage and came to Japan. So he had this great, interesting job in the middle of the mid nineties in Japan. He had a business card, he had an expense account. He was pursuing his career and meeting new people. And I was home. Full time housewife, no friends, no business card, no job, no language, no American club, expat package, nothing.

And it was a bit of a crisis, I think, in our marriage. I almost divorced him. Miserable. I put on 15 pounds. And the breaking point, I think he came home one day and said, are those the same pajamas you were wearing this morning when I left? I think I almost ripped his head off. That was like them's fighting words.

At the two year mark, I said, gee, it doesn't look like we're going back. And I'm paying a ton of money to keep my litigation files in storage in California. What's going on? We had a huge fight, probably the last, really big fight we've had, knock on wood. We decided, cutting the story short, we decided that I was going to try to get a job.

So just to show you how serendipity and luck really is very important in your law career. I sent my resume to a woman who was my volunteer English student who had a high school friend whose current job was head hunting for Japanese staff in foreign companies. Nothing to do with the law, never represented a lawyer before. She faxed my resume to a company that she had placed a couple of people in. 

And on the day she sent my fax, that company had just promoted a woman in their organization and she was moving to Singapore. So no job description, nothing. But my fax showed up on that day and I had an interview and then I got hired and had a job. 

So totally serendipitously lucky, super lucky. Fairy godmothers, the universe, God, was watching over me and I landed this job almost overnight. And that started my career in Japan. 

Catherine: That's a really amazing thing. I'm sure there's a few other sub chapters, but the really big third chapter for you was when you became a global ethics officer. So I've heard of ethics on a real regional or a domestic basis, but global ethics officer. And I remember from our early chats that this was a job that you had always wanted from when you were quite young. And I remember also when you announced this job that you were so happy about it, it was like a dream job for you. Tell us about this third stage, because I think this story will also really resonate with other people.

Royanne: Sure, it really was a dream job in the sense that when I was 18 and I went to Washington University in St. Louis and I declared my major in philosophy with a specialty in ethics, surprisingly, I met a guy who handed me a business card that said corporate philosopher on it. And I thought, cool, you can get somebody to pay you to think about the right thing to do for the organization?

I promptly forgot it. And went back, went to law school, graduated and went to law school and had this law career. So fast forward 30 years and Prudential offers me this global ethics role. And I said, oh, no, I can't move to New Jersey because my husband works in Tokyo and they said, no, we'll let you do this job from Tokyo. You'll be the first global position that is located outside of the home office. And I thought, I literally said, where do I sign up? Like, where do I sign? I was so excited, I didn't even negotiate for a raise, I was like you had me at hello. 

Catherine: Did you talk to your husband about this?

Royanne: I'm trying to remember whether I went home to tell him. I think I told him about it before I officially said yes, but I kinda said, yeah. That was my only hesitation. And It was a lovely role. I didn't realize, at the time I didn't even realize that there was such a job in Prudential, that the job had been open for a while.

And then I didn't even apply for the job. The woman who had the job before me had come to Tokyo, had seen me, you'll love this Catherine, ask a question from the audience. So there was like a big town hall. It was Japan. So nobody asked any questions and I always feel sorry for Japanese speakers. So in the middle of this big town hall, I raised my hand and I asked a question. Of course, I asked a good question, but I asked a question, and interestingly that put me on her radar.

And she became aware of me because of that question. As she was retiring, they were looking for somebody to take the role. And they were very focused on trying to engage international. And she told my boss at the time, hey, how about Royanne? And I was an unusual choice given there were other people, I guess they had, who had applied for the role.

And they finally said, oh yeah, that's interesting. Outside of the box thinking, but she might be great. And so they talked about it and eventually offered me the position, which I immediately accepted.

Catherine: Wow. You had insurance in your background as well, right? Right back at the beginning when you were a litigation specialist. You had insurance as part of that too, correct? 

Royanne: Correct. So it's interesting if you'd look at how I moved from different jobs to different specialties. When I was a litigation attorney, I had insurance, some insurance clients, and I did bonding and surety work in Hawaii. So then when I came to Japan and had that magic fax, no job opening moment, it was an insurance company.

So I happen to have insurance in my background. And then I got promoted to Asia Pacific regional representative. And it didn't look like they were gonna send the woman with the Japanese face and the California law degree to Europe for her next job. I felt like I had hit a glass ceiling.

So I switched from insurance to banking and securities and asset management. So that's what pushed me, hitting one sort of wall or glass ceiling encouraged me to pivot, as you like to say, and change industries. Not such a big leap, it's still within financial services, but definitely a step to the left.

And then I did that for a while and I became regional again. And I felt like another glass ceiling. So then I switched back to insurance, but this time, instead of non-life insurance, I went to life insurance and then I had that career and then became a global ethics officer. 

Catherine: Right. But that pivot in between... and pivots someone else's word but I use it a lot yes... that 180 from insurance into finance again, how did that happen though? Did you just switch it up? You already had it there and you dialed that up to change within that, when you hit that glass ceiling? 

Royanne: You're going to laugh because I forgot to mention that to you.

But I really believe that God was moving my career in a particular direction because it was completely serendipitous, it's crazy. Okay. So I'm in Japan, working as this lawyer, Asia regional. I happen to be in New York for some conference. I sit next to some guy who also was from Japan.

He was actually from Boston, but he was working in Japan. So what are the odds that you go to this big ballroom, hundreds of people, and the guy you sit next to is also living in Japan. So I started asking him a bunch of questions. You know me, so shy. And I said, what's the name of your company and how many people in your law department?

And he said, oh, we happen to be looking for a new lawyer, the head of our legal department. And I was, of course, totally not interested. Cause very happy with my CIGNA job. I said, yeah, yeah. Okay, great. Nice to see, nice to meet you, blah, blah, blah. So as I get onto the plane, on the way back to Japan, there is a magazine left in the pocket in front of my seat, by the previous passenger. The magazine was working women's and the cover was working mothers magazine, and it was the top hundred companies for working mothers to work at.

So got to look at that. So I'm looking for any company in Japan, that's on that list. 100 companies. And there, I think there was Shiseido and the only other company on that list was State Street Bank. The company that this guy worked for. And I thought that's interesting. I've never heard of this company before.

And suddenly the guy that I'm sitting next to is working at State Street and I get on a plane and its name is on the list. But even then I said no, no, no, I still love working where I'm working. So then I go to the Tokyo American Club and I'm walking in the front door and this guy is walking out the front door and we serendipitously bump into each other.

And I said, hi, he's like hi, oh, I can't believe we met in Japan. I don't know what it is. But basically I think the universe is telling me that I should apply for your legal job because this is too many coincidences. And he said, oh, that's really funny that you say that because the woman who's doing the hiring for this job happens to be in Tokyo this week.

So you just send me your resume, no guarantees. I said yeah, no guarantees, but I'll, if you send me your resume, I'll send that to her at this moment. So sure enough, she happened to be in town during that week. And I met her and the rest is history. 

Catherine: Wow. I don't think I'd actually heard that story from you before, but I think that is absolutely amazing.

That magazine being in the front pocket of the airplane. That's just crazy. Some people may call this planned happenstance, right? It seems so radically unreal, but actually, because you are laser focused again, from having met that guy, it's at the top of your mind, and then a magazine happens to be there.

And the company’s in there, it's almost as if you're saying somebody is pulling a thread and, or rope and you're tied to it and they're pulling you along. But not dragging you, you're walking with them as they pull you along this path. It's just absolutely incredible. 

Royanne: I was a firm believer in that.

I think that sometimes the universe taps you on the shoulder and you ignore it, and then they nudge you in the back and you ignore it, and then they slap you in the back of the head and you ignore it, and they push you off a cliff until you finally pay attention. So I try not to wait for the cliff.

I like to be open to possibilities. But both of those incidents were really all three of them were quite crazy because as you know, I'm this huge planner and I have these 10 year plans, and I've got this whole thing mapped out. And so many times in my life, just as I have things mapped out, these opportunities cross my path.

And they may not be ones that were originally written down, but certainly all of the jobs that I had along the way, I would say this definitely about the ethics job. I would not have been able to do that job until it came into my life and everything I did prior to getting that job prepared me to be ready.

So there's definitely some divine plan in the process, even though I try my best in my full of flaws, human way to be ready. But somehow a higher power is definitely pulling the strings. 

Catherine: Yeah, I think there's something bigger than us that we're not in control of and mapping out things is actually a really great idea.

And I think you're the extreme of that with your spreadsheet, Excel spreadsheet. And I never did that, but I am very much on the same side as you with being very open for things that come up. And so I didn't really plan everything, but when I look at my career as well, like you, it's the things that I was doing before led to the next thing.

And there's lots of linkages that I didn't see it before. Cause when you map something out, you don't always see the road ahead, but you can certainly see the links behind you. Where you've come, the scenery you've passed. And so that's a really important thing for people to be aware of, is five-year plans, 10 year plans are fantastic to have in your back pocket, but certainly being open to things and listening to those voices in your head, listening to the people who talk with you, feeling the push that you were getting from other serendipitous places as well. I think that's been amazing. 

And the other thing I love too, that you talked about a little bit further back, was that asking a question in the room. And that's something else I have to say here that I did learn from you. You said don't you ever show up in a meeting or a conference, if you don't have a question to ask.

You are there at the meeting for a purpose. And if you don't ask a question, then you shouldn't be in the meeting. I remember you saying that and it might've been back in that day when I saw you. And that was probably impressive. But at some point along the way you said that, and I thought that is amazing.

So every time I attend a meeting now, I literally think of you and I think of a question to ask or during the meeting, if something comes up, I will think I'm going to ask a question about this. I don't know if anyone else is listening to you on this one, as deeply as I did at that time, but asking a question, sure. It's a great thing to do to show up and not just ask for the sake of it, create an impression. And you did to the extent that you actually received a job offer because somebody remembered how much of an amazing question you asked. 

Royanne: No, I call it the potted plant theory, which is if you're a woman and you've been invited to a meeting and you don't say anything, you're silent the entire meeting, you are only as good as the potted plant in the corner because you haven't added anything. You were there for a reason. 

Not that you necessarily have to speak up and say something all the time. But minimally, you can ask a question, right? And I think preparing to ask a question or say something in a meeting allows you to be more mentally engaged in the topic and more personally responsible for the content.

Even if you go through an entire meeting without saying something you were at least mentally engaged. So I really think it's important to be prepared to say something. And if possible, you should say something that's incredibly brilliant and important to the topic. 

Catherine: A pot plant just sits there. It looks nice.

It's been well-watered, leaves are usually pretty well presented and shiny, but that's all it does. It's on display and we're not on display when we're in meetings. We should be talking when we can. Yeah. And I think it was at State Street that I also met your colleague... was it Sharon Morin? 

Royanne: Yes.

Catherine: And I think she's been quite a big influence over your years in Japan. 

Royanne: I would say she's one of the most, she was both a mentor, advisor mentor and eventually a very powerful sponsor within the organization, but she was the woman who was in town…

And she interviewed me. That was Sharon at the Intercontinental hotel.

And I was not interested in that job. I just felt like the universe was going to make me do this for some reason. But as soon as I met Sharon, I suddenly wanted that job really really badly. Everything about her made me want to work for her. 

Catherine: Wow, because we spend so much time with the people we're working with and for, so why would you not be drawn into somebody like that?

She must have been really amazing for you then to have made you flip to say, yes, I want this job because of a certain person and their personality. That's incredible. 

Royanne: It's meant to be. 

Catherine: So is this where neuroscience then comes into play for you? Cause I know you have that big interest in that intersection between neuroscience and behavioral ethics.

Did that start coming through very strongly in your work with State Street?

Royanne: No, I got interested in neuroscience when I became an ethics officer, because you, as an ethics officer, the cool thing about that job was it was ethics without compliance. 

Catherine: This is at Prudential, you're talking about?

Royanne: Yeah. In Europe, ethics is considered corporate, it's usually ethics and corporate social responsibility. And in North and South America, it's usually ethics with compliance, and in Asia, it's ethics with legal. So people view ethics with different lenses, right? And it depends on what flavor you're looking at, but Prudential has this ethics position, exclusively ethics.

It's not ethics and compliance. It's not ethics and legal and it's not ethics and CSR. When you are a global ethics officer you get to see a lot of different kinds of crazy stuff that's happening in the organization, at all levels, from the very top to the very bottom, right? People are making decisions and they're good people sometimes making unfortunate and bad decisions.

And that's what got me interested in neuroscience. Like how does the brain, how can we harness what we know about the brain in order to help people make better decisions? And so it wasn't until I became an ethics officer, my whole legal career, I wasn't as interested in it until I started dealing with a lot of human problems.

Catherine: And I think that's also a chapter in itself that I would love to talk about at another time with you, because there's so much involved in that, but I know it runs through everything that you do now. We talk a lot about it in the task force that we're on, to treat people and to be thinking about the way that they are making good or bad decisions and those kinds of things.

I also don't want to skip over a really important role that is often held by lawyers. And that's the role of general counsel. And I know that's what you had at State Street, correct? You were vice president and general counsel and then senior vice president and regional general counsel. 

Royanne: Yeah. I don't know. I'm trying to remember what the title name was, but in my head, general counsel, particularly general counsel at the highest levels of the organization. So speaking of Sharon as my role model, and there was another, I was lucky enough to have a number of women general counsels for the organizations that I work for.

So it says a lot about the company,when the person in charge of legal is a woman and generally the highest paid woman in the organization. I'll never forget meeting the general counsel of State Street, a woman named Maureen. I walked into the interview with her and she had some kind of designer, but you know how you have that, you and I, we love talking about or Hermes scarves and all that kind of stuff, but she had a scarf printed zip-up cardigan that had woven yarn sleeves and a matching leather skirt in lime green for our interview. I walk in and I'm looking at this general counsel whose salary is disclosed on the 10K, right?

Because she's one of the top three compensated officers of the organization. And I thought in-house counsel is a great job because who wants to be working for a law firm, because if you can go to work and be one of the top three paid people in the organization and wear a designer, leather skirt in lime green, this is the job for me.

It opened my eyes to the possibility of what it would mean to be the head of legal department in a very big organization. 

Catherine: Wow. Amazing. So aside from the style sense, what else does it take then to become a great general counsel perhaps from seeing Sharon and seeing this other, your general counsel in the organization? Do you have a sort of a list? 

Royanne: Of course I have a list.

Once I saw these completely competent, smart as a whip, amazingly powerful, fantastic women as my role models... I made a list of what I thought the seven areas of expertise you needed to have to be a million dollar salary general counsel. So here's my list, ladies.

Number one, you need to have a legal expertise in a particular area. Like financial services or healthcare or, whatever industry you're in, you need to know your stuff. That's table stakes. That's basic. But number two, you need to have some compliance, ethics and compliance experience because you need, you're going to have, you want people not to get into trouble. Three, you need to have M&A experience because not every company is going to grow organically. And a lot of times people do acquisitions in order to grow or a sale, right? You want to get rid of a non-profitable division. And so as a general counsel, you want to be able to do either one of those, either side of that transaction of mergers and acquisition.

Number four, you need to have litigation and risk experience. So how to calculate your risks in general, how to prevent risks, how to sue, be sued, and settle If necessary.

Number five, you need to have corporate secretary experience. You need to know what kind of materials need to go in front of a board of directors, the granularity detail, not too much, not too little, in order to protect the board and describe what they considered and make sure that you're on a schedule for, for the whole year what the board needs to be considering in order to fulfill its duties.

Number six, you need to have government affairs experience, meaning regulatory. If you're in a regulated industry, you need to know how to deal with your regulators. What to say to your regulators. What do your regulators care about? Government affairs is how to move the government itself to legislate in a way that is supportive of the industry and the economy and the community. 

And then the last thing is you need to be a good manager of people. And lawyers are very difficult employees because they are very smart and they think that they know how things should be, but sometimes they are too specialized in their knowledge. And so you need to be able to manage a group of lawyers. You need to be able to hire and fire outside counsel, and you need to manage to a budget and make sure that you don't overspend. And so if you can do those seven things; legal, compliance and ethics, mergers and acquisitions, risk and litigation, corporate secretary, regulatory government affairs, and manage a team, then you are qualified to be considered for a million dollar general counsel position.

Which, of course, I never quite had a million dollar salary, but that was certainly what I had in mind in my mid forties, and that as I was climbing the corporate ladder, if I stayed in law, didn't take that side path to ethics, I would have been focused on getting those seven areas of expertise. 

Catherine: Wow. And you don't always learn those at law school, but you learn a few of those at a law firm.

So having black letter law firm experience before you become an in-house counsel, is that something you would recommend?

Royanne: Yeah, I would actually, unless you're going into compliance. I think if you are just graduating from law school, I highly recommend working for a law firm only because you're relatively young, still raw.

There's the theory, and then there's actual practice. And being able to do an apprenticeship or practice in a law firm where you have people watching over you and guiding you towards the level of detail and granularity of detail and consolidating of ideas and applying precedents, all of those skills that you start to learn in law school, needs a little bit, I would say a little bit more practice.

I often say that first year or second year lawyers are useless. They're an investment, right? You hire them because they'll grow into something that is going to be worthwhile, but you're losing money in the first couple of years. So yes, I do recommend that people go to a law firm and get some training on the practical side of how to be customer oriented and put your legal research and analysis into actual real-world practice.

Catherine: And it's also the place where you can get your speciality that you mentioned, right? Financial services or a specific industry. You can often get that through a law firm. 

Royanne: And you can move around. So if you find something you don't like, if you decide that you really hate insurance, cause it's super boring, you can change to bankruptcy or mergers and acquisitions or divorce law or whatever.

It's a very, a law degree is extremely useful. Even if you don't become a lawyer, but if you want to become a million dollar general counsel, you probably need to have some foundational knowledge of the area you're going to go into. 

Catherine: But running a legal team, legal budget, outside counsel, that's something that is hard to find, to learn somewhere.

I guess you could do it through continuing legal education or speaking with other lawyers or getting into groups where others share, say a round table, is that the kind of measure that you would have used to get your muscle built on managing, running a legal team? 

Royanne: I think the best way would be the secondment, which I think you can talk about. If you work for a law firm, but you're lucky enough to be seconded into a law group, a corporate in-house group, then you can see the different skills that are involved when you are an in-house lawyer versus a law firm lawyer, or external lawyer.

Catherine: Great. Thank you. That's an amazing list. And we will be, I'm sure people stop the podcast in order to write those down. And we'll have them in there in the back of their diary to remember and skill up on those areas. And so I'm going to jump now, Royanne, to your current role as outside director of Gojo & company.

And again, taking through the thread of being a lawyer, how does that help you then to strengthen what you are doing in your board role? And perhaps you can tell us about this board role as well, what drew you into it? And how is it really quite different from your other roles that you've had in your career so far?

Royanne: I think that any person who's going to be an outside director, but particularly somebody who is a lawyer by training, needs to know what your liabilities are when you join a board. Because I know there are a lot of, it's kind of glamorous and there's some people who think, oh, I'll just, I've got some industry experience, so I'll sit on a board and get paid a little stipend and pontificate on my wisdom. And it'll be easy peasy, lemon squeezy. 

But really being on a board is liability. The first thing on my mind. And one of the things I insist upon when I join a board is you must have Directors Errors and Omissions liability insurance, to cover you in case you get sued for making a bad decision.

Royanne: First and foremost, people should realize that it's not a lark. It's not just an advisory position. There are responsibilities and standards of care that you must meet. One of the favorite law cases that I like to quote is one in Delaware where a board of directors had hired a smart person in China to do some business.

And there were some problems. And one of the directors resigned in order to avoid liability. 

So the director who resigned said, I didn't know about China and I relied on other people. I don't speak Chinese. And therefore I should be allowed to resign and avoid liability. And the court said, no, you don't have to speak Chinese in order to be on a board, but you can't abdicate your, or delegate your responsibilities as a director to other directors, just because you don't have that specialty. 

So really, really important for people when they join a board, that they get training and understand what their obligations are, where the pitfalls are, and making sure that they take it seriously and read the papers in advance and use their best business judgement.

Catherine: Good advice. Very good advice. And I think most people would invest in getting that E and O insurance, I would hope, but that's really good advice for people who are thinking about it. So tell me about this particular company, because it's a startup. And I would say that being an outside director on a startup is different to being one in an established company.

There must be a lot of foundational strategic guidance that you're providing. 

Royanne: Totally different. Being a fortune 100, old, big corporate global player lawyer, and then going to a startup was a huge shift for me. I always tell the members of the current board that as I’m nudging them towards different levels of governance.

And I think in some ways it's similar to what we do as lawyers in, even in a big company when you are a in-house lawyer and you're giving advice, right? There's the trusted advisor levels. So level one is they ask you a legal question. You give them a legal answer, right?

Level two is they're in trouble. Somebody's suing them or there's a problem. And they come to you and you need to help them fix the problem. Okay. That's level two.

Level three is you're participating with business decisions. You're there representing the legal voice or the internal control voice. And you help build, like you launch a product or you enter a new country or you acquire a company. And so that's level three where you're not just passive. You are actively giving advice. 

Then level four is when you are speaking out in areas that aren't necessarily just legal. So you know the business so well, you've been around the block with some of the things that they've done, both successes and failures, and you're giving advice, wise advice, right?

And then level five is the top trusted advisor level where senior management, usually C suite, the CEO, you're the right hand person to the CEO. And you can be counted on to bring bad news and difficult, uncomfortable conversations to your CEO because nobody else has the guts to tell them whatever this horrible thing is.

And you are trusted by that CEO to not let them get into trouble. That even if it's a painful thing to say, that they will take it from you because they know that you are extremely loyal and you have their best interests at heart. 

So the interesting thing about these five levels of trusted advisor is you never want to be at a level above what your clients want from you. So if they only want a passive lawyer, who's just going to speak when spoken to, then that's the level of trusted advisor service you provide as an in-house lawyer. And you get ahead of your skis and you try to do things that people, your client doesn't necessarily want from you. You have to be a little bit careful. Be thoughtful about it. There are times when you have to do it anyway, because whatever they want to do is illegal. And you need to tell them that they can't, whether they want to hear that or not. 

But for me as an in-house lawyer, though, the idea that certain clients are worthy of certain levels of service and other clients are not. And I need to be careful about what level I'm giving was a big pivotal point in my maturation as an in-house lawyer.

There's just some people when you're trying to give them something that they're not necessarily wanting to hear, that changes the dynamic. You can still do it, but you want to be more careful. I've met a lot of younger, mid-career, in-house lawyers who are trying to be level five all the time, and they don't have the trust built in that allows them to be level five.

And so you need to adjust according to your relationship with your internal clients. 

Catherine: I really love this because there's so much to say here, but I think, say a trusted advisor at that first level, there are a lot of lawyers who are very comfortable being at that level and staying at that level.

And there's nothing wrong with that, being the trusted advisor for legal questions and they can give the right answer.

Do you think there's anything that lawyers should be doing to prepare for the outside director role? For example, I'm thinking of connections in the industry or other specific knowledge or building another area as it grows, such as there's a lot about ESG right now. So is there something around that you'd like to tell us about? 

Royanne: I think for generic advice for lawyers to be on boards, I think you need to be careful not to give legal advice because you're on the board as a strategic oversight and you're not replacing the lawyer in the company. So you got to let the lawyer, you got to let the people in management do their jobs. Besides knowing what your legal liabilities are, what your responsibilities are, besides not delegating responsibility, psychological ownership of anything to another director, and also not letting the other directors delegate their responsibility to think about legal issues to you because you're the lawyer, right? Everybody's on joint and several liability amongst all board members, for fulfilling their duties. 

Catherine: How about specific then to females who are lawyers who are foreigners, perhaps in Japan, because there's a big surge in Japan hiring and wanting to hire, is there something that perhaps women lawyers, and foreigners who are here, bring to the board? 

Royanne: I just had a kind of interesting conversation with an asset management company, but basically we were talking about the wisdom of the crowd. All of this research around the value of diversity being, I call it the theory of sharp knives, which is basically, my friend is a chef and he has one of those leather pouch thingies that has all the different kinds of knives in it.

So it has the butcher knife, the boning knife, the apple knife, the pairing knife, the bread knife, they're all super sharp, beautiful chef quality knives. But sometimes, and the knives represent experts, but sometimes the problem your company is facing is a rusty nail. And you just need a regular hammer to pound the nail in.

You're not going to be able to deal with that rusty nail with any of the sharpest knives in the chef's pouch, right? So the power of diversity or wisdom of the crowds is having a different perspective in your decision making body that provides a different point of view. Basically a hammer, a plier, a screwdriver, these are all different perspectives. They don't necessarily need to be the professional grade tool in your toolbox, but having them in your toolbox allows you to make, to build a better organization. 

And so companies that have women on their boards, companies that have diverse perspectives, LGBT, introverts, people from Kansai, foreign passport holders… diversity means a lot of different things. Diversity of thought, not just what you look like on the outside. 

Creating a decision-making or oversight body that has expertise and information in a lot of different perspectives is research-wise statistically superior,  will always come up with a better, more innovative, more likely to come up with the correct answer if there is a correct answer, but also more likely to have a creative better solution. So I would say that people who are building boards should definitely think about adding women and lawyers and foreigners and physically challenged people, et cetera, because of the perspective that they bring to your board, if it's relevant to your business.

Catherine: Fantastic. Is there anything else you wanted to add in there about outside director roles, such as you have, that we've missed? Anything we've missed? 

Royanne: The most  difficult thing, particularly in Japan, because we've had a few big scandalous blow ups of directors, is you want to make sure that the chemistry is right.

The value that you're bringing to the organization is important for their moving forward with their strategy. One requirement I have is before I join a board, I do like to ask them for six months of getting to know each other, Either sign a nondisclosure agreement and observe, be an advisor “kommon” in advance, get to meet people in a getting to know process so that the chemistry and the fit and the culture matches.

Because if you go in as a token, as a token woman, or as a token whatever, when you speak, you speak on behalf of that representative body and it's too much pressure. So the thing I like to say, the cute pithy podcast thing I like to say is: One woman on your board is a token, two women on your board is a minority and three women on your board is progress. The reason we say that is because if you're the only woman on the board and you're 95% fabulous. And 5% occasionally you make a mistake because you're not perfect. Then when you do make a mistake, you represent, somehow people look at you and the woman lawyer has made this, has made this huge mistake and you've shamed the entire group that you represent somehow. 

But when there's two women on the board, then you at least have a 50 50 chance. And if there's three, then you've made a mistake as an individual, and as the person that you are, versus representing half the population of the planet.

It’s important to have a critical mass of different voices on your board, so that there isn't one person who represents a particular non-dominant culture, too much responsibility on just one person. 

Catherine: That's really great advice. And I also really loved where you said about observing them beforehand and getting to know if the chemistry is right, because once you're in, it's almost too late.

And I think that's what you did with Gojo, because you were helping them out, observing before you joined them, correct? 

Royanne: That's right. I did. They asked me to be on their board and I said, startup company? I don't know, they could be dodgy or they could be doing a bunch of things. So I said I would, I asked if they would let me observe their board for six months first.

And by the end of the six months, I was so passionately committed to what they would like to, their mission and vision and their culture that I went back to them and begged them to say, okay, I'm ready to be on your board. Will you let me, will you please let me be on your board now? And they're like, oh yeah, sure. It was a match made in heaven. Yeah. So that's definitely what I did for Gojo. I asked them for that six months opportunity. 

Catherine: Yeah, I think that's good guidance. I haven't heard of people doing that. And I think that's really something that we can all think about. I don't know, every company would do that, but I certainly think you hit the right spot there and were able to do that very successfully.

That's absolutely amazing. Royanne, let's switch gears a little bit, cause I want to hear what guiding routines you have as a wonderful person in this world. And usually I ask my guests how they start the day. If they have a guiding routine that they have. I know you have your fabulous drink at the end of the night, but how about the beginning of the day?

How do you get started?

Royanne: On a good day, when I'm following all of my neuroscience habits; I wake up, have something to drink, like some hot tea, I have a tumeric tea, and I spend 10 to 20 minutes in some kind of prayer meditation, just to chill out and get connected. And then I start the rest of my day.

Catherine: I know that you're extremely resilient person, but what are the traits or “traits” as some generations, some people say, keep you going? Do you have an operating system or a theme that guides you? A word of the year, for example. 

Royanne: Yup. I do have my 10-year plan and generally within the ten-year plan, I have yearly goals. And so usually in February I take some time off and because New Year's goals are too trite I guess, but so in February I take time off and I plan my year and I normally give it, the year, like a theme to follow. Cause I'm looking at it within the broader context. So yes, I do actually have yearly themes.

This year I decided to bravely choose, get comfortable with the uncomfortable. Little did I know that that was going to be a global, a big time global pandemic and yeah. 

Catherine: That's a good thing to have because it is, and that ties into resilience. 

Royanne: Yeah. So the cool thing about the ten-year plan is you don't need to be perfect at the end of one year. You can just slide some goals over to the second year and you can watch the rhythm of your life, your life phase, and there are times in your life when you want to dial it up and times in your life when you want to dial it down.

And when you're feeling particularly strong you can have a year... previously, I've had a year of transformative feedback, which was super painful. Other times I’ve had deepen the practice or stacking your mini habits, that was a neuroscience year. So I choose the kind of an area that I want to maybe work on and being able to pick years when you feel stronger and other years, when you don't feel as strong, where you can get back to the basics.

So yeah, I do think it's a good thing to... Cause I'm such a planner, such a PQ, that I have all kinds of organizational systems to keep me on track 

Catherine: Process queen. And on my desk in front of me, I have this wonderful book that was published this year. Dear Chairwoman by Rika Nakazawa and you have written a chapter in that book.

And in there you say; don't be caught climbing the ladder of success only to find that it was leaning against the wrong wall. What does this mean to you? And what should it mean for other lawyers or people?

Royanne: I had a life mentor when I was very young and he was in my life for 35 years until he passed away in 2011, which was a horrible year, but he had all these cute sayings.

And one of them was that one; don't climb the ladder of success only to reach the top and realize you are leaning against the wrong wall, meaning be thoughtful about your priorities and don't get so bogged down in what you do every day to forget that life is a journey and you want to end up in, you want to end up at the right place. 

Actually really good advice for people, mid-career lawyers, I think, because you could get golden handcuffs and be too afraid to take risks or do something different. This quote reminds me that I want to make sure that what I'm working towards actually meets my passions and priorities. He also used to say, don't just prioritize your schedule, schedule your priorities.

He would also say, don’t let the things that matter the least get in the way of the things that matter most. 

Catherine: Gosh, how amazing. And he's given you such good pieces of advice. How about the flip side of that?

The less than good advice that you received during your life? 

Royanne: So the thing that came to mind, which actually turned out to be a pretty good piece of advice, was when I was a young lawyer, I was called into the office by the managing partner. I think he asked me what kind of lawyer I wanted to be or something and I said, I want to be a great litigator. And he said, well,you're never going to be a great, I can't, I still can't believe he said this, you're never going to be a great litigator because you're a passive Asian woman.

So it was a lucky break for me because I said you obviously haven't been in the room with me for longer than five minutes because there's two things that people never say about me. One is that I'm cute. And two is that I'm passive.

So in one way it was the worst piece of advice because I was just so shocked. I had never been so blatantly discriminated against, had somebody say something, so racist, blatantly bad, particularly … working for. But I was lucky that he didn't say you are a bad writer because had he said anything other than passive Asian woman, I could have potentially internalized that.

But because he picked something that was so amazingly not me, that I was easily able to deflect that and prevent it from slowing me down in any way, shape or form, because it was just patently more about him and less about me. 

Catherine: So worst advice became almost best advice. Amazing. 

Royanne: Then I changed firms because why would I work for anybody like that?

Catherine: Wow. We're going to head into the final round, but just before that, I didn't want to miss the topic of mentoring, because I know you are a major proponent of mentoring and that you have a certain process you follow to induct, shall we say, your mentees. And you just don't mentor anybody. And you've talked about mentoring today, people who mentored you, and I know you don't use it as a loose term.

Tell me about your specific meaning for mentoring and how you relate with your mentees. 

Royanne: A lot of people use the word mentoring or don't understand the word mentoring, or use it in a kind of casual way, which is fine. But I do actually have a very specific process. 

You need cheerleaders in your life for your career. So you need role models like Sharon and Maureen. You need advisors. So those are people who just on a task basis, give you advice, like how to do this better. 

And then there are sponsors who are powerful people who anoint you with a power and basically give you air cover while you're trying to do some big project. So the difference between a mentor, I've heard this, the difference between a mentor and a sponsor is that a mentor speaks to you and helps you, and a sponsor speaks about you when you're not around.

So the sponsor would say; hey, oh, that's a really good project, let's put Catherine on that project because I think she's amazing in this area. So you're not even there. You don't even know that they're necessarily saying it, but they're advocating on your behalf. Or somebody says something bad about you and your sponsor will say; that doesn't sound like the Catherine I know. The Catherine I know is on top of everything and she delivers results. So let's find out a little bit more about that concern, right? 

So that's what I mean by protecting you or giving you cover, allowing you to operate and be your best in the organization. But that's a sponsor. Mentors are people who you have this deep trust relationship with, and I have a more formal process.

Everybody just laughs at me, teases me about how crazy it is. We have our first initial meeting to make sure that I can actually help you. If you come to me and say; Royanne, I want to be an Olympic gold medal ice skater. Then I say; good on you, but I can't be your mentor in that area because I really can't. I don't have any expertise in that space. 

So I have had situations where some people might represent themselves or say that I'm their mentor when I've given them advice because they don't understand the difference. But when you're my mentee, you know it, because there's a very specific process and it actually ends in six months.

I have a time limit.

Catherine: Thank you for that. I really wanted you to express that, because it's very important and I love the approach that you have to mentoring and thank you also for making that distinction between a sponsor and mentor. It’s going to be very useful for the people who are listening today.

And before we do head to the end, Royanne, is there anything we haven't covered today that you'd like to mention or anything you've said that you'd like to re-emphasize? 

Royanne: Ah nope.

Catherine: You're good. 

Royanne: Yeah, I'm good. I think I said a lot. 

Catherine: You said a lot of very juicy information. I'm going to have to go back and listen a few times to you and pick out the wonderful pieces.

And there's probably going to be about 90% of everything you've said, I'm sure. So let's move into the quickfire round where I ask you six or seven questions to wind up the interview. 

So the first is; if I was to give you 1 million yen, 1 million Japanese yen in cash, obviously covering all the ethics and compliance check boxes on that, where in Japan would you spend it, your favorite store or destination or both?

Royanne: I would definitely donate it to the US Japan Council because, not only because I sit on their board, but because the US-Japan Council is focused on the bilateral relationship between the two countries. And what I like about them as an NPO, which makes them very unusual, I think, is they have a very holistic, horizontal approach to challenges.

So it's not just this problem needs to be solved by the private sector for-profit, or this problem needs to be solved by the government, or this problem needs to be solved by NPOs or society or NGOs or the military. Whenever they address a challenge, they invite all of those key stakeholders to the table, knowing that the complex problems that we face in the region cannot be solved by any, by pulling any one lever.

One of the reasons why I volunteer my time to the organization is because I do believe they're thinking about solutions at the higher level of thinking than we were at when the problem started.  So that's where I would spend my money. 

Catherine: Thank you. That's amazing. And I'd like you to share a book that you've been reading.

I always ask this to everybody. What book they're reading or what podcasts they're listening to. And I know you always have good books that you recommend to people. I've been on webinars where you've given one or two book titles, and I always go away and buy them. So Amazon will love me for that, but, wow, do you have anything you'd like to share today on the book list?

Royanne: I think I would recommend the trusted advisor book because we had a chance to talk about it and people need to know a little bit more. I couldn't narrow it down to any one book cause I have lots of them. So I decided to send you, I hope you don't mind, a list of my top 10 recommended books for young women lawyers, so that they can pick and choose amongst the 10 books that I often frequently recommend.

And I'll give you a little description as to why I like the book and they can then choose. 

Catherine: Wow. That's such a great surprise. Thank you so much. I'm going to post that on the website or on the show notes that we have, and I really thank you for that. That's going to be excellent and super exciting. I can't wait to see what's on there.

I do have the trusted advisor book and I did buy that after you spoke about it. 

All right. So the next question is if you were stuck on a desert island and you needed to bring one person, one item and one food, what, and who are they? 

Royanne: Person would probably be Keanu Reeves. Cause he's so cute. And I've had a crush on him since I was really young.

Thing; I thought about a yacht with a crew so I can get off the island, but I thought that might be cheating.

Catherine:  Oh, that's pretty, that's interesting thinking. Why not? 

Royanne: Yeah. Why not? So I think the thing would be a fully fueled up and crewed yacht so that I can leave the island. 

Catherine: No one has thought of that yet. Well done. You've got all the food on there. So it was the person, item and the food. So you've already covered that cause they've got the, they've got the ability to go into dock somewhere and restock the ship.

Royanne: One food that I don't think I would live without is chocolate, so I’d probably ask for the chocolate. 

Catherine: Very good. And I was going to ask you if there was a famous person or celebrity you'd love to meet, but have we just covered that?

Royanne:  That was a desert island, which is just a totally different situation. And there are three women that I would like to meet. One would be Christine Lagarde, Madame Chairman Christine Lagarde, because of the career that she had and that she was a famous lawyer and that she's done a lot of great things. I think I would also like to meet Oprah Winfrey. I really like her. And maybe Brené Brown because of the books that she's written about vulnerability and shame. 

Catherine: Yes. She'd be around the dinner table for conversation, Brené.

Royanne: Yeah. I would do a lot in order to try to meet one of those women. 

Catherine: Yeah. My next question is what's on your bedside cabinet because actually Brené’s book is on my cabinet, but how about you? 

Royanne: I have a sleeping mask, which I just started using to enhance my sleep hygiene. I have a place for my eyeglass, my eyeglass case when I take off my glasses cause I'm really blind. 

I do actually have a small book called Jesus Calls, which is a Christian devotional book with some, like a little blurb for every year which I got from my mom. When I was taking care of her, my mom had pancreatic cancer back in 2018. I'm gonna try not to cry.

And that book gave her a lot of peace. So when she passed away, I took it. 

Catherine: Thank you for sharing that. I have an angel on my table as well, which is surrounding that kind of aspect, but with my dad. So there we go. I'm going to ask you one last question, a place that you would like to visit post pandemic when we can all fly again somewhere you may have been before, but maybe somewhere you want to fly to after this. 

Royanne: There are a couple of places that are on my bucket list. I don't know that I would fly immediately at this point in my life, but I certainly want to visit before I die. I would like to see the Taj Mahal. Cause it's as a girl growing up in Hawaii, that seemed to be a very far distant place. I have never been to Italy. I’ve been to a number of countries in Europe, but I've never been to Italy and I want to go during Christmas.

Catherine: Oh, Italy's fabulous. You have to go. You have to go. Great. I'm so glad to hear that. Thank you very very much, Royanne. And I really want to also just thank you generally for sharing your amazing story today. Your marvelous career. You’ve got such sensitivity that you bring through. We can tell that. You care about people and I think you're going to be an amazing board member.

Thank you for sharing so many thousands of gems of advice for young lawyers. It was just amazing to connect with you in this way. We do so many other times, but this has been really precious. Thank you so very much. 

Royanne: Thanks for having me. It was a lot of fun.

Catherine: And so how can people connect with you if they'd like to connect with you?

Would that be through LinkedIn or would you like them to connect through me? 

Royanne: I think through you because I'm quite shy on my digital platform. 

Catherine: Yeah. I'm happy to be your agent and take in requests and let you have them after I've screened them. So I will finish up here. We've had this fantastic conversation and you really are truly modeling for lawyers at all different stages of their career, how they can be brilliant outside directors, advising boards, and how they can be in a mentor relationship too.

And you've also just shown, there's just not one way to lead a lawyer life and you can pivot all through your career and build your interest and keep your eyes open and your back ready for those pushes as the opportunities come up. I love too that your age 19 dream job was delivered to you and that you could make it work by staying in Japan. Otherwise I would never have met you, I think. I'm really grateful for you for coming on, being my first guest in the second season of Lawyer on Air, and really thank you for sharing your journey and for my listeners, please do like this episode and subscribe to Lawyer on Air and drop us a short review, because that really does help Lawyer on Air be seen and heard by more people.

You can also now go onto my web page, find this episode and leave me a voicemail. I do love hearing your actual voice telling me about the guests and what you enjoyed during our chat. So do go ahead, share this episode with someone who you think will enjoy listening to it and be inspired to live a wonderful lawyer lady life.

Thanks, Royanne. 

Royanne: Thanks. 

Catherine: Thanks all. And see you on the next episode. Cheers, kampai and bye for now.

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