A full transcript follows.

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Hiromi Shiraishi is my guest today and she shows us how when people put up their own barriers that stop you from advancing in your career, you can choose to step around them and find your own path. If you are working as in-house counsel and want to know how you can be more visible and help others more effectively in the organisation, then this is the episode for you. 

We would love to see more of our legal eagles helping with organisations such as Kids’ Door, because we know the power of language to open up opportunities. 

If you enjoyed this episode and it inspired you in some way, we’d love to hear about it and know your biggest takeaway. Head over to Apple Podcasts to leave a review and we’d love it if you would leave us a message here!

In this episode you’ll hear:

• Hiromi’s non-linear path to a career in law

• Being dissuaded to apply for overseas postings because she was a woman

• What Hiromi does as in-house counsel to be seen more in her organisation 

• How Hiromi started to let go of perfectionism and help others in her team

• The importance of pro-bono work and volunteering for your own learning as well as helping others

• Her favourite podcasts and other fun facts 

About Hiromi

Hiromi is Country Counsel for HP and has worked as in-house counsel for Renova Inc, Nokia Solutions and Networks Japan. She also has a solid Law firm background having worked at Nishimura and Asahi in Japan, and two law firms in the US. 

Hiromi also had the unique experience of working for the Japanese government in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs International Legal Affairs Bureau in Tokyo advising other government ministries and agencies.

Hiromi is a member of the Japan Federal Bar Association and Dai-Ni Tokyo Bar Association and is also admitted in the State Bar of California.

Educated at Tsuda College in Tokyo and attaining a BA, she then went on to do her legal qualification, at the Legal Training and Research Institute of the Supreme Court of Japan and LLM at the University of Southern California Gould School of Law in Los Angeles.

Hiromi has also authored several publications such as “Cloud Computing and Protection of Personal Information in Chapter Three of “Legal Practices and Cloud Computing”, and she also wrote the chapter called Movement to Reduce Barriers to Access to Information, in the publication entitled “Commentary on Revised Copyright Act”

Hiromi is a super contributor to the community through volunteering by way of English tutoring for underprivileged high school students with “Kids Door”.

Connect with Hiromi 

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/hiromi-shiraishi-9b380b161/ 

Links

Kids Door: https://kidsdoor.net/ 

La Maree de Chaya  https://chaya.co.jp/ 

Hidden Brain Podcast

Planet Money Podcast

Connect with Catherine 

Linked In https://www.linkedin.com/in/oconnellcatherine/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lawyeronair

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/catherine.oconnell.148

Twitter: https://twitter.com/oconnelllawyer

Transcript

Catherine: Hi everyone. Welcome to another episode in season three of Lawyer on Air. I'm the host of the show, Catherine O'Connell. Today I am joined by Hiromi Shiraishi. Hiromi is country counsel for HP, Japan in Tokyo, where she has been for nearly three years. Hiromi is hands on in all the critical work for HP as their country counsel.

She's responsible for advising on employment and labour related matters. Conducting training related to legal and compliance matters, reviewing and drafting various agreements and advising on general corporate matters such as the Shitauke Hou. Shitauke Act is subcontracting law in Japan. She's also advising on antitrust laws and consumer protection. 

Before she joined HP in August, 2019. Hiromi worked in-house for a few other companies, including Renova Inc, Nokia Solutions and Networks Japan. She also has a solid law firm background having worked at Nishimura and Asahi in Japan and two law firms in the US. Hiromi also has the unique experience of working for the Japanese government in the ministry of foreign affairs, international legal affairs bureau in Tokyo, advising other government ministries and agencies on issues concerning international treaties on IP, as well as negotiating reviewing and drafting IP agreements with foreign countries, such as Vietnam, Switzerland, India, and Australia.

Hiromi is a member of the Japan federal bar association and Dai-Ni Tokyo Bar Association, and is also admitted in the state bar of California. Well, she was educated at Tsuda College in Tokyo and attained a BA and then went on to do her legal qualification at the legal training and research Institute of the Supreme court of Japan.

And then she did her LLM at the University of Southern California Gould school of law in Los Angeles. Hiromi is also an author. She's authored several publications, such as cloud computing and protection of personal information. And that's in chapter three of the publication called legal practices of cloud computing.

And she also wrote the chapter called movement to reduce barriers to access to information. And that's in another publication entitled commentary on the revised copyright act while Hiromi is also a super contributor to the community. And I got absolute chills when she told me that she is volunteering by way of English tutoring for underprivileged high school students.

She started volunteering for them this year in January, 2022, and really enjoys it outside of her day to day work. She tells me also that they have more children than volunteer tutors. So she would love any listeners to this podcast to put their hands up and help out to be volunteer tutors. And we'll put all the details in the show notes, but the business name is Kids Door and we'd love your support for Hiromi.

Well, I'm very pleased to bring you, Hiromi Shiraishi, as my guest today. Hiromi, welcome to the show.

Hiromi: Hi, Catherine. Thank you for having me and thank you for nice introduction, especially touching upon this Kids’ Door English Drive Online.

Catherine: Yeah, we will go into that a bit later because I think that's such an important part of what you are doing in the community. So we'll talk about Kids Door. We're also gonna talk about your career path, some of the influences you've had along your journey, your current role at HP, and I'd love you, if you can, give some tips and ideas for the next generation of maybe in-house counsel or lawyers who are coming up the ranks behind you. How does all that sound?

Hiromi: Sounds great to me.

Catherine: Good. Well, we always start the podcast with an opening question, which is about how we would celebrate if we meet up in person, because again, we're online doing this recording, but I'd love to know if you have a favourite wine bar or cafe or restaurant in Tokyo.

And if we got together, what would you be choosing off the menu from that place?

Hiromi: Actually, I moved out from Tokyo two years ago after the pandemic started. And so I now live in Kanagawa. So can I take you to this area?

Catherine: Sure.

Hiromi: I was first thinking about a particular bar at the hotel, Otowa no Mori Hayama, but I found that it's temporarily closed for renovation, but there are some other nice restaurants in Hayama where we can enjoy the beautiful sunset over the sea and also Mount Fuji.

And yeah, one of them could be La Maree de Chaya. I don't know if you have heard of that restaurant, but it's run by Hikage Jaya, one of the renowned Japanese restaurants in Hayama.

Catherine: Oh, that's lovely. I mean, I've heard about Hayama a lot. I'm not a big, big beach person as in going down onto the beach in the sand, but I love seeing the sea from a restaurant or a cafe. So I would really love to do that. That would be fantastic. 

Well, Hiromi, when you were a child, I always ask this question as well. Do you remember way back then what you wanted to be? I've told a few people, I used to want to be an air hostess. We all wanted to do that when we were young, but do you remember what it was for you?

Can you remember thinking about, oh, I want to be this when I'm grown up? Do you remember?

Hiromi: When I was really small, I wanted to have a magical power, like magical girls in Japanese anime. As you know, anime is a big thing in Japan, right?

But, maybe many girls in my generation, their childhood dreams were to become housewives, but it never occurred to me.

That was probably because my mother was stay home, but working at home. So I grew up seeing her working, kept working. So, I don't quite clearly remember, but according to a friend of mine from college, I said to her that I wanted to be a lawyer when I was in middle school after watching a drama or something.

But I wasn't that serious. And by the time I entered high school, I wanted to work for the United Nations because I naively believe that the United Nations can bring peace to the world.

Catherine: Mmm.

Hiromi: So I chose high school with intensive English education and also my college major was international relations, especially international public law.

Catherine: Oh, interesting. Interesting. I suppose that magical power thing's very interesting. And how you wanted to bring peace to the world at the United Nations. Maybe there's a tie in there. But I love how you talked about your mom because in a way too, for me, my mum was working at home, but she also went out and did part-time work.

And so I used to see that as my role model. And it's really important that we have a mother or a mother figure or somebody in those early days who can show the way. And, perhaps that's also how that was very instrumental for you and showed you that you can do things as well as be a mother or a person who's looking after a family.

Right?

Hiromi: Right. And I actually didn't realise that my mother influenced me that way until recently, until when I seriously thought about the importance of diversity and role modelling, just like you said.

Catherine: Yes. And what was it that triggered that, that you remembered your mum being that kind of influence on you? Is there something that happened? 

Hiromi: One of the triggers was HP put me, or my manager kindly put me, into a program called the women in leadership lab. That is for women employees of HP in the greater Asia region, we call it greater Asia, which excludes China and India. And I was put into a project group, which needs to work on how to promote diversity in leadership in greater Asia, in HP, more.

And during the group discussion, we were talking about how family life can influence the next generation. If the conversation in the family is like, father needs to be the prime breadwinner and the mother needs to stay home, like typical traditional Asian family, then the next generation, or the daughters or the girls, can never get out of that traditional image of the father and the mother roles.

And that discussion made me realise that thinking back, my mother has been at home, but she was also working.

Catherine: Mmm.

Hiromi: Yeah.

Catherine: Yeah, it's interesting. Isn't it? Because there's been actually quite a few other guests on the lawyer on air podcast who've told us this, that influence of their, who was at home and how the family was arranged, but also others who did have that traditional, display of their parents, mum at home and dad out in the office and working, that they broke through that as well, that they saw that, but they wanted to do something different.

But I also think, just as you've said, that influence of who we see right there in front of us, and a mother who's working part-time or going out to work as well is very instrumental. And it certainly was for me, I remember mum going out, she would go out in the evenings for work that she needed to do, but was always there in the morning when we were going off to school, and our lunches were made.

And I just think how amazing it must have been to do that, because hours of sleep must have been much less than what I thought. But always there yet having gone to do something that was bringing some impact back to the family for additional income and things like that. 

Hiromi: And also my father, he is like “Iku-men” that we call it, child care. What's the right way? 

Catherine: I think that's it. Yeah. I think a man, a father or a male in the family who helps with the childcare. 

Hiromi: Right, right, right. And while my mother was very busy, she was a Japanese typewriter typist. So when she was really busy on weekends, my father took my brother and I to anywhere, like beaches or mountains.

Catherine: Oh yeah. Yeah. That's nice. So you'd go out in the car and, or on the train and go somewhere. Oh, Wow. Okay. That's interesting. I think it'll be interesting too, when your mom and dad listen to this podcast later and hear you talk about them, which is really great. 

Do you remember then, you had that United Nations bit come up, but when did you start thinking about the law? Because your study at university was not, your undergrad was not in law. So where did that start from for you thinking about law?

Hiromi: Yeah. Actually in my college days, I came to realise that the United Nations does not have the magical power to make the world into peace. And then I joined a Japanese company like other Japanese college graduates do. And so the main business of the company was software development.

And I kind of enjoyed working there, but along the way, I faced a few obstacles. And as I said, I never ever thought that I would become a housewife, stay home. I wanted to keep working no matter what happens in my life. But then some unfortunate events make me think that I probably need to be a professional rather than an ordinary employee or worker, because for ordinary workers, their fate is at the mercy of the company in a way.

So for me, I probably wanted to be a lawyer or becoming a lawyer was one of my options in the back of my head.

Catherine: No, that's great. No, it's fantastic because I know you said you saw the drama, the TV drama, but it's very interesting too, that you had that in the back of your mind all the time, to be professional. And that was the switch, a real big change that happened to you, quite significant in your life.

Hiromi: And also, I actually took the entrance exam for some colleges of faculties of law too. So it was probably always there somewhere in my head, I think.

Catherine: Right. So little pieces of a puzzle, and then suddenly they all slot together. So carry on what happened then?

Hiromi: Yeah. Let me catch up on these obstacles because it relates to why I decided to take the bar exam.

Catherine: Thank you. I'd like you to talk about that.

Hiromi: Yeah. one thing was that the company opened some overseas positions and they posted the requirements, right. As the company usually does.

In my opinion, I met all the requirements. One of the requirements was whether or not I passed the Eiken pre one grade.

Catherine: Right? The English test. 

Hiromi: Yeah. English test. And so I talked to my manager that I would like to apply for these overseas positions, but the manager's response was that these overseas positions are dangerous for girls.

So basically he really discouraging me from applying. And he might have thought I may be too junior, but if that is the case they should have written in the requirement that certain minimum service years are required or something like that. But it wasn't there. 

Another thing is that I hurt my neck by a car accident, and I needed to go to a clinic for rehabilitation, but all I needed was 30 minutes in the morning.

So I asked my manager if I can come to the office 30 minutes later than the regular starting hours. But the manager told me that because it's not written in the work rules and we cannot allow such special treatment until after I use up all my paid holidays. I thought it's so unreasonable, but I had no idea what kind of rights I have as an employee.

So I came to think that it would be better to educate myself. Otherwise I cannot protect myself or maybe others. So these things combined made me think that I might want to take a bar exam and become a lawyer.

Catherine: Mm, and try to change the world, at least in your own way that you can. I mean, listen to that. I mean, it's not in the rules, so you can't do it. Think about that. It's not in the rules, so why can't we do it?

Hiromi: Yeah.

Catherine: Right. Why not? If it's not in there, then it's not a rule, so there's flexibility, but it's interesting.

Was that the same manager? Was it?

Hiromi: Yes. It was the same manager.

Catherine: Yeah, you never know what's going on in that manager's life and why they say that, and he might genuinely have thought it's dangerous for you, depending on where you were sent. But if you were sent to America or to England or New Zealand or Australia, it would be fine.

Hiromi: It was actually New York, London, Singapore, Hong Kong.

Catherine: OK. Well, there you go. So do you think those challenges sort of were, I don't wanna say meant to happen, but in a way things happen to us I think, in order to change our path or to make us think differently and really are impactful. 

Do you think those, which obviously moved you to think about professional work and to go and do the exams, has it still impacted you now in the way that you approach your work?

In the way you think about HR policies when you're helping the HR team construct work policies, work rules, and things like that, does that experience from back then come back and help you now?

Hiromi: Definitely because I hate to take things as it is, or I always want to challenge the status quo. If it doesn't make sense, we can make changes because the rules or laws can be amended, can be revised according to the development of the society or according to the needs to meet or to accommodate somebody's needs.

Right? So definitely these experiences impacted my way of thinking.

Catherine: Yeah. Okay. It's very interesting. And I also think you've had that experience because you've been on that side of the law where you were in law firms in the US and Japan, and you had to stick to the rules. And obviously when you're advising clients, you have to give them the law and the rules to advise them so they can do their business well. 

But did that sort of change and become more flexible perhaps when you came into in-house? Are there things that you could do differently when you came into your in-house roles at the beginning, compared to say, when you're in law firms?

Hiromi: I believe that's exactly the point for a company to have a lawyer in-house because it's very easy to just point out the legal consequences and just to tell the legal risks. But I believe that the value add of the in-house counsels is to understand the business better, understand the background about where the business people are coming from, and to think about how we can make things happen as the business people, or maybe HR, wants to make things happen. So my way of thinking is definitely different from when I was working in a law firm.

Catherine: Right. Yeah, I can imagine. And are you now using your magical powers? What do you think your magical powers as the country counsel? Cause you're handling so many things there. I mean, you are the go-to for everything. So how are you doing that? Are you using it by coming in really early in the process, people come to you with their general idea of something before it's even solidified?

What's your magical power now in the country counsel role that you've got?

Hiromi: Yeah, like you said, it's really fantastic if everyone gets me involved at an early stage but some people do so already, but some don't because they are still tied up with the traditional image of the legal department in Japan. Like they are just the final checker or something.

Catherine: Yeah, right. That's the traditional view.

Hiromi: Right. Yes, but I really want to get involved early because that way, like I said, we can think together how we can make it happen without violating, or reducing the legal risks or exposure. And so whenever somebody comes to me to ask questions about a new business, or things like that, I always try to set up a call rather than just an exchange of emails, because that way I can understand their viewpoint better.

So that's something I have been trying to do, but I don't think, it's not a magical power.

Catherine: I mean, it still is in a way because when you have the call, I'm sure you are asking different questions or in a different way than you would in email, email just is functional. And it's very important. We use it. It's great as a tool. 

But when you get on a call to people it's completely different, because you can see how they're reacting to what you're saying. Or you can ask an additional question or you ask the why is that? Or how do you, why do you think that? So I think you get more out of a personal call and it really just depends. All calls are not the same. It depends on the approach that you have.

So how do you help the business people come out with more of their issues or tell you more about the problem or what they need from you from the start? Is there a way that you do that?

Hiromi: I try to be more visible and accessible. 

Catherine: Nice. How do you do that?

Hiromi: Yeah. One thing is about one and a half years ago, we started including a monthly article. There's a monthly magazine issued by HP Japan for our employees. And before that legal has almost never included any article.

So this is as a try to increase some visibility of legal, because the very first thing we wanted to do, or I wanted to do, is to let employees know that we are here to help from a legal perspective.

This monthly article covers a wide variety of topics. The most recent one was how to respond to certain requests from clients or partners.

Catherine: Mm.

Hiromi: The one before was about the amendment to this personal information protection law.

And also we covered things like stamp duties and also the stamping, or the hanko, or E signature. We cover a wide variety of topics in this monthly article.

Catherine: It might be interesting actually, for people to hear about you as the lawyer who happens to be female and the program that you did and maybe some learnings. How many females in your company?

Hiromi: We have like 100, among 500.

Catherine: Wouldn't they like to hear from you?

Hiromi: Yeah. And, I have been thinking of sharing my experience in this women in leadership lab experience in another way, but including or writing an article may be a good idea. That didn't occur to me.

Catherine: It's an article that you can start with anyway, and start a conversation and then move towards how you'd really like to do that. It might be by recording an interview with someone in English and in Japanese, it could be any way, just different ways, but starting with the article I think is a really great idea.

I know from checking out your profile on LinkedIn that you do a few things like this. You did a recent one on creating your personal brand. You joined Jessica Chan's course on speaking up at work. I'm getting the feeling that you really like this kind of skill building, not only your external skills that you have to do for say keeping up the California bar, but also these internal so-called soft skills.

But I actually think hardwired skills that we need; speaking up, raising your voice, leadership, your branding. These are really interesting topics Hiromi. Would you like to talk about those?

Hiromi: Jessica Chan gave a kind of seminar mainly to, I think, Australia and New Zealand, because there was a seminar organised by our employee resource group called WIN. WIN means women’s impact network, that is an employee resource group within HP and the organiser of this particular seminar run by Jessica was hosted by this ANZ WIN. 

And I found that seminar quite interesting. And the courses you just mentioned were recommended to take in addition to this seminar. So I took these courses and naturally diversity, equity and inclusion is a very important topic for Japan and for myself personally. And speaking up is not that easy in Japanese working environments sometimes as you may know, especially for Japanese women, I think.

Catherine: Yeah.

Hiromi: Yeah. And building personal branding was something we worked on during this women in leadership lab training, and I'm still working on it. I haven't come up with a nice one yet.

Catherine: Yeah, I think it will come when something else coincides and it triggers something perhaps. Yeah. How do we speak up at work? Did you find any really good takeaways, tips that you could share that you've started to use perhaps, or that you think you are planning to use, to speak up at work?

Hiromi: Yeah, I'm still working on it. But as a first step, I try to at least ask one question during a meeting, like a leadership meeting, so that I at least have a chance to say something, and a way to prepare myself to express what I'm thinking more comfortably.

Catherine: Mm. And do you think about the question before the program starts or the meeting starts, or do you think about it during.

Hiromi: If we know the agenda, I may think about the question beforehand, but usually I think about the question during the meeting, depending on how the conversation goes.

Catherine: Interesting. I really love that because it's my mantra as well. I will always ask a question. Whether it's now, going off mute and asking live or in the chat, but always finding a way to ask a question of some sort. So I usually prepare a couple beforehand, but if something comes up during the meeting or webinar, whatever it might be, I'll ask it there.

But I think that's an absolutely amazing tip that you've given, because that's where it starts. If we don't at least ask one question, I remember Royanne Doi who's hopefully going to listen to this later. She said to me, what's the point in you being in a meeting, if you don't ask a question? You're just taking up space.

I think she calls it a pot plant in the room. You're just like a plot plant sitting over there in the corner of the room. So yeah, it's important. That's one point. Is there anything else that helps to help us to speak up?

Hiromi: Another thing could be to allow yourself to be less than perfect. 

And sometimes maybe this is just my personal opinion, but probably because of this Japanese education system, we were told to be perfect. And we did not allow others to be less than perfect. And this is something, or someone in this leadership, women leadership lab training commented to me in my one on one with another participant. She said that I might have setting the bar for myself too high. And if you do not lower the bar, it would be really hard to say something because I don't want to sound stupid or I don't want somebody to think that I'm saying stupid things. So maybe the change to the mental state. 

Catherine: Mmm. 

Hiromi: Perfectionism usually prevents you from speaking up or asking questions.

Catherine: Oh, that's so true. And how did you feel though when you had that one on one feedback? Did it make you feel terrible or did it actually make you feel some release and some ease to then go, oh, I don't have to be so perfect? 

Hiromi: Yeah. It was an eye opener for me. Yeah. I didn't think that way. I knew that I have a perfectionist side and sometimes it prevents me from doing something, but I didn't think that I set my own bar high because of this perfectionist side of me.

Catherine: Mm, being told that, then you realise actually, maybe I am.

Hiromi: Yes. I completely agreed and it caught me off guard in a way. So I'm still working on it. I'm still probably not allowing myself to sound stupid or asking stupid questions, but at least it's important to have this self awareness. 

Catherine: Self awareness. Yes. And you are more comfortable. It sounds like little by little by trying it, you are not as upset or you're not as anxious or you don't feel as bad about it if you do ask a question and it's not quite the right one. There'll be other people in the room most definitely, or in the zoom as they say these days, who also have the same question. 

Do you remember what it was after that feedback that you got how maybe you set the bar too high for yourself, you need to lower it, that you were told, do you remember what was the first thing or or second thing that you did after that, to challenge yourself to lower the bar? 

Hiromi: I probably shared this view with my colleague.

Catherine: That's a good thing, to share it with someone. Yeah. What did that person, do you remember what that person said? Yeah, maybe that’s true.

Hiromi: Mmm. Yeah. 

Catherine: Maybe that's true. I can imagine.

Hiromi: They may have been too polite to say that.

Catherine: Maybe.

Hiromi: Yeah.

Catherine: Well, the other thing I think is interesting that you had, I'd never heard anyone say that they were taught, you know, that schools here in Japan teach people to be perfect and not allow others to be less than perfect.

I didn't know that that was the case that you actually get that as instruction at school.

Hiromi: Uh, it's not the instruction, but it's a hidden instruction.

Catherine: Hidden message. That's interesting. So how about nowadays, are you encouraging others then to also try to be, live that kind of advice that you gave or do you help others to give that advice back to them in one on ones when you are speaking with them?

Hiromi: I see the perfectionist side in my team member, and I often tell him that his review result doesn't need to be perfect. The more important thing is that he reviews. And if there's any questions or any things that he's not so sure, he can just ask me questions. That way we can have discussions and make the review result closer to perfect. So I encourage my team member to be less than perfect when doing his day to day job.

Catherine: It’s so important, you know, you are helping them crack perfectionism by creating that atmosphere, by saying it's okay. It doesn't have to be perfect when you bring it to me, I'm here to help you with it. So go so far, but then come and see me. And then with more inspiration or instruction or guidance from you that he can go back and do a little bit more. 

But are you seeing the changes then in him, the cracking of that perfectionism, blowing away the perfectionism is starting to happen, and he's developing more in that way?

Hiromi: I believe so. He came to ask more questions and gradually he's changing. That's something that I see.

Catherine: Wow. Okay. I wonder if he'd like to have, you know, a role like you in the future. And so I wonder what kind of advice you might give to someone, for example, if he asked you or anyone else around you, how to get to do the job that you are doing, what would you say about that?

Hiromi: I would say first, don't try to be perfect and don't expect others to be perfect. And the most important thing is that if you have questions you should ask, don't hesitate to ask. And also it's important to know what you don't know. Some people really have a difficult time to admit that there is something they don't know.

But I think it's the first step to know what you don't know. Am I making sense?

Catherine: You're making total sense. Again, you're giving me shivers here Hiromi really, because knowing what you don't know, I think people often think, and we think of it ourselves that we have to be perfectionist and know everything because we are lawyers. We have studied, we must know everything, it's impossible.

And we should always be, I believe, lawyer learners all our life. So know what you don't know. Excellent. Really great. I love that. Thank you very much. You just, you know, you are completely making sense on what you're saying and I hope that's very informational and useful for people who are listening. 

I'm gonna switch gears a little bit, cause I really want to get to know about this giving back to the community that you're doing and give you a chance to speak about that.

You're involved with the volunteering at Kids' Door. So you could have chosen any NPO. I'm imagining they're an NPO, right?

Hiromi: Mm-hmm

Catherine: You could have chosen any, why Kids' Door?

Hiromi: This Kids Door and this volunteering opportunity called English Drive Online, came to my attention through HP Japan's involvement in a project. I think it was to build a kind of room where kids can enjoy E sporting and Kids Door and HP, Japan, cooperated to make this room for eSports. The person who's leading this NPO gave a one hour seminar for us about their activities. And this English Drive Online was one of them. And I thought that this could be something I can do without much effort because it's online. I don't need to go anywhere. And also because this is English and their main purpose was to prepare these kids to take Eiken, the English proficiency test and the basic English conversation.

That way I started just volunteering. Another thing is that language skill always broadens our possibilities or options in the future, especially for these kids. And I felt that way. So I wanted to do something to help, broaden the options for these underprivileged kids.

Catherine: What then do you need to, do you just need to show up and deliver a kind of program for them online? Or is it already set what you have to do each time or do you create that yourself?

Hiromi: They have some textbook chosen for the kids and the kids themselves choose which chapter or which topic they want to do in a 40 minutes session. And for example, if I register for the next Monday session, then this kid’s door staff will match me to one or two of the students. And they will tell me, the kid’s door will tell me, through an online tool, which text these students chose for the day. That way, you know, if I just look at the texts, then I can prepare myself. If the students choose Eiken, then there's always a cheat book for the teachers. So we don't really need to worry about what would be the right answer for Eiken.

Catherine: So you've decided to do this and it's through HP, but there must be other, perhaps there are ways that people can help you also joining it. Is it restricted just to HP people?

Hiromi: No, not at all. It's fully open to anybody and I'm really hoping that some of the listeners get interested in this English drive online volunteer opportunity and try to do it. Because Catherine, you said at the introduction, there are always more kids than the volunteer tutors but from a tutors perspective, it's very difficult to tutor students with different levels and they sometimes choose different textbooks.

And from the students' side, it's not ideal to need to learn things with a totally different level student because their pace and what they want to learn is different. So I'm really hoping that we can help to recruit more volunteers so that these sessions will be much closer to one on one each time.

Catherine: Mm, I see what you mean. Yes. It's good to have two or three in a class as well. So they can sort of have a conversation together when you flip it over to them. But I'm getting your idea there with the one to one being ideal. I can see now that, you know, they've got different levels and different pace.

And so patience must be one of the things that you have to have when you are doing this volunteer work. How else is it helping you to think about yourself? The other things that you need to think about yourself, or how's it impacting you? And how's it also impacting you and your daily work as well?

Hiromi: Students sometimes ask very funny questions that make me think sometimes outside of the box. For example, one student asked me, when we were discussing about how we say in English various shapes, like circle, triangle. And when I said the shikaku is square, the student asked me why we don't call it four corners.

Catherine: Yeah. Or quad or quad angle, right? They've got triangle. Why not quad angle? Yes. Good question.

Hiromi: Right. 

Catherine: I don’t know the answer. I don't know the answer to that. 

Back to your point before, know what you don't know. I do not know the answer to that. Maybe someone can help us. Did you find out?

Hiromi: No, but whenever I don't have any answer immediately, I always tell the student that this is my homework.

Catherine: If you find out, let me know.

Hiromi: Yeah.

Catherine: Interesting. Oh my goodness. Well, I mean, how are you fitting all of this into your day? What's your routine like? You're working from home most of the time, but do you have regular hours when you're switching on? Are you fitting in exercise or when are you doing the volunteer work?

So what does your average day look like for you?

Hiromi: I usually wake up sometime between 6 to 6:30. The very first thing I do is to check my emails on my iPhone. And then I do a little exercise like stretching and have a decent Japanese breakfast and start working around 8:30 to 9.

Catherine: Right.

Hiromi: And I try to stop working around 6 and then have dinner and do some more exercise and take a bath to relax and then go to bed. Of course, every day doesn't work that way. For example, when I do this English drive online, I usually join a session starting from 7:45. So on that day I may skip the exercise to join this English drive online.

Catherine: Mm, interesting. Okay. And do you do anything else? I mean, sometimes you're doing your external studies, so you're fitting that in as well, or is that coming in during your day as well?

Hiromi: I sometimes join some seminars during the day, but most of the seminars I join after work, like from six to eight or seven to nine.

Catherine: Mm, okay. So you're fitting it in again, outside of your actual work. So in your role right now as country counsel, what kinds of things do you love doing? What really makes you feel great when you do that kind of work?

Hiromi: One thing is of course I'm enjoying helping our colleagues from a legal perspective. But aside from that, I'm a member of the leadership team of HP, Japan. I have opportunities to get involved in promotion of diversity or to make a harassment free environment or stuff like that. So I enjoy getting involved in the cultural aspect of company life a lot.

Catherine: Mm.

Hiromi: And in addition, I'm a member of the worldwide HP global legal affairs pro bono and volunteerism committee representing Asia Pacific. And I sometimes need to solicit donation nomination from my colleagues worldwide. And also I'm now trying some kind of online volunteering opportunity for my Asia Pacific colleagues.

That's something I also enjoy as a part of my work life.

Catherine: That's great. And then do you think this is something that other lawyers who might not be doing this could look into or think about? How's it helping the rest of your work when you're doing these more cultural aspects? Which I really liked because I think diversity and harassment free environments are actually how the company displays its culture.

Would you encourage other lawyers to look into that and think a bit more seriously about the volunteering and cultural side of things that lawyers can have some impact on?

Hiromi: Yeah, I definitely encourage, or I definitely would like, more lawyers in Japan to get involved in volunteering activities. It's giving back to the community or paying it forward. And unfortunately, this is my personal opinion, but volunteering is not so active in this part of the world, especially Japan.

And I really think lawyers can contribute more if we can set some time aside from our regular work and do something for the community. So I encourage or would like, or hope, that other lawyers do something. It doesn't need to be this English drive online, but whatever pro bono volunteering that inspires them. That would be great. 

Catherine: Mm. Thank you for that. I really think that's a great thing. And Hiromi, is there anything else that you would like to talk about today that we haven't talked about or anything else that you would like to reemphasize?

Hiromi: Yeah. I'm talking too much about volunteering, but HP, especially in the Asia Pacific region, we are looking for some pro bono opportunities to work on. So if there's any listener who is working in a big international law firm, and if they have any pro bono opportunities, I'd like to hear these and want to think or discuss how we can cooperate.

Catherine: Great. I think that's fabulous. And you know, you're never, ever talking too much about volunteering. I think it's not talked about enough. It's been a lifeblood for me. I saw it through my Dad who used to do it with an organisation, all the way through his life. And so I've seen volunteering role modelled for me, and I try to do that for others.

And I think you certainly are doing that as well. And I give you credit for that. And I think you'll never say, oh, you know, it's great or anything, you won't have any kind of arrogance or anything about it. It's just something you want to do. And you're encouraging others to do it. And I'm with you on that.

Knowing that volunteering is really a wonderful way to express and have impact as a lawyer. I mean 40 minutes a week or however often it is to show up and do some English teaching for kids and getting their questions back to you and having them impact you. I mean, that's magical, right?

There's the magical power that they're giving you, but also your magic is now coming through volunteering to work with others. I think that's really lovely Hiromi. Thanks so much.

Hiromi: Thank you.

Catherine: All right. Well, we're now gonna head into the final super six, which is the final, quick fire round of six questions that I ask each guest to wind up the show.

And the first is, oh, I think I know the answer to this one before I ask it. A million yen Japanese cash. If I was to give that to you, where would you spend it? Favourite store, destination or volunteer organisation?

Hiromi: Yeah. I definitely want to make some donations to these NPOs, including Kids Door.

Catherine: Yes.

Hiromi: Yeah. But I might also want to spend a little bit of it online shopping for fresh producers and some other goodies. Before the pandemic, I really enjoyed eating around, finding new restaurants in Tokyo, but because I don't do it anymore, instead I started buying fruits, veggies and stuff like that online.

And yeah, I actually completed buying from all 47 prefectures in Japan. 

In the last two years.

Catherine: Really? That's super. What a great idea.

So in some way you've supported each prefecture, somebody, a producer in those areas. Wow.

Hiromi: That's what I thought.

Catherine: Ooh. I think that's a great idea. I might try that. That sounds fantastic. Wow. Good on you. And how about a book that you've read or are reading, or maybe if you're a podcast listener, a podcast you've listened to or that you would recommend?

Hiromi: Yeah, I am a podcast listener since like 2016, when one of my colleagues took me to this podcast world. And I think one of the previous guests also mentioned it, but Hidden Brain is one of my favourites.

Catherine: I think I've heard of that. Yep.

Hiromi: Yeah. And I also enjoy listening to Planet Money because I'm very bad at math and economics, but this Planet Money gives me a very good sense of what's going on in the economy side.

Catherine: I see. Great. Thank you for that. How about a favourite saying like a kotowaza?

Hiromi: Yeah, this is not really a saying, but HP kind of renewed their mission statement and stuff like that last year. And there's a statement called belief, which is one thoughtful idea has the power to change the world.

This really resonates with me and I really love this belief.

Catherine: Yeah, because a thoughtful idea is a careful or considered or a respectful idea. And I certainly think that would definitely change the world right now. Yeah. Wow. Okay. A famous person or celebrity you would love to meet or have already met?

Hiromi: I would have loved to meet Mother Teresa if she was still alive. I know that there's some controversy or criticism about her activities, but I really want to know her perspective on helping people.

Catherine: Mm. I wonder if there's anything written by her or about her, that someone did a biography. I'm sure there must be

Hiromi: Yeah. There must be something.

Catherine: Yeah. Interesting. Okay. Thank you. And what about something about you that people don't know?

Hiromi: Yeah.

Catherine: We know you're a volunteer, massive volunteer. What is there, what else is in there that we don't know about you?

I certainly may not know about you.

Hiromi: I was once on the cover page of Los Angeles Times, not by myself, but together with my classmates at the University of Southern California law school’s, LLM program, because we were in the inaugural class. So the LA times decided to feature us. And I was, quoted as saying, it's so embarrassing to speak English in front of so many native speakers.

It was 20 years ago. So you can tell, for me, I'm now speaking to a wider, wider audience. What a big change.

Catherine: What a big change. I hope you've got that article, at least even photocopied sitting inside a frame, a photo frame, have you?

Hiromi: I have the copy because someone in my law firm kept it for me.

Catherine: That's great. I mean, having something like that, that you have on your bathroom mirror or the door as you go outside, somewhere that reminds you. That's who I used to be. And now I'm the one that shows up on a podcast and I'm the one that speaks my voice. I think it's always great to have that reminder of who you were and what you said 20 years ago.

That's amazing. Wow. That's great. You were on the front page of the LA times. Love it. All right. Well, if you weren't going to be a lawyer Hiromi, what would you be?

Hiromi: I would say psychologist or a linguist.

Catherine: Ooh.

Hiromi: Yeah.

Catherine: Nice. That's really great. There's always a chance from now, right? And one last bonus question is something that you are really deeply grateful for right now.

Hiromi: I'm deeply grateful for people around me because without my colleagues, my peers, you, I'm not where I am here today. I'm so grateful to people who believed in me and supported me and encouraged me. 

Catherine: People around you.

Hiromi: Yeah. People around me.

Catherine: Love it. What a note to finish up on. Thank you so much Hiromi for being a bold and courageous person to come on the Lawyer on Air podcast. It's been such a pleasure to speak with you. 

I really do thank you for taking the time to share your wonderful story, your insights and advice for other lawyers who want to be in-house counsel in the future. You've really shared with us your inspirational story of your career progression. And we didn't go through it chronologically today. We went through in themes and I hope everyone's noticed how we did that today.

A little bit different. And that's Hiromi's input to this episode to make it more about themes that she is interested in. And I love the way that we did this. So how can people get hold of you Hiromi? Can they do that through LinkedIn or where is the good place to get hold of you to contact you?

Hiromi: Sure. LinkedIn is the best way to connect with me.

They can contact me directly.

Catherine: Thanks. We'll pop that in the show notes. And so anyone interested in connecting and learning more about you and your volunteering activities can reach out to you? Yeah?

Hiromi: Yes.

Catherine: Great. All right, well, we'll finish it up there. And again, thank you so much for coming on and being a super guest on season three of Lawyer on Air. 

And to my listeners, please do like this episode, subscribe and drop us a short review because that does help this episode and the rest of the episodes be seen and heard by more people.

Tell us what you liked, leave us a voicemail on my website, or drop us a review, as I just said, and that would really be helpful for us going forward, and do share this episode with someone you think would like to listen to it, who's interested in volunteering or who wants to hear about the wonderful lawyer extraordinaire life that you've just heard from Hiromi.

Thanks for that, everybody. And we'll see you on the next episode. Cheers, kampai, and bye for now.

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