A full transcript follows.

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We have a wonderful special guest on the show from Michael Page, Tokyo, Alkis Kotzampasis. Alkis shares the latest trends in the Japan legal market and how you can best work with a recruiter even if you are not looking for a new position right now. I have worked with Micheal Page myself over the years so I knew they would give us honest and useful advice on how to make best use of their services. 

If you enjoyed this episode and it inspired you in some way, we’d love to hear about it and know your biggest takeaway. Head over to Apple Podcasts to leave a review and we’d love it if you would leave us a message here!

In this episode you’ll hear:

• Alkis’ favourite episodes of the Lawyer on Air podcast and his reasons why! 

• How long it takes for a candidate placement from initial contact to starting a position

• Which industries are hot right now in the Tokyo legal market

• The benefits of using a recruiter in Japan

• A wild story about retention bonuses! 

• Is it really possible to move between industries in the legal field?

• The importance of building rapport when looking for a new position

• Alkis’ top tips for succeeding in your job search and why you should create a relationship with a recruiter before you need to work with one

About Alkis

Alkis enjoys assisting lawyers realize their potential. He is also advising his clients on how to source the best legal talent for their teams. Due to the busy nature of the legal profession, Alkis understands that it is difficult for many legal professionals to keep themselves updated on the job market and he aspires to fill that gap of knowledge with the information he provides them.

As the current Manager of the Legal & Compliance team in Michael Page, Alkis has developed a vast network of clients since coming to Japan. His practice focuses both on law firms and in-house. He has successfully introduced candidates in different industries such as technology, finance, energy & others and at varying levels in seniority such as Legal Counsels, Legal Directors, Compliance Managers, Associates and Partners. 

In terms of personal accolades, Alkis was the no.1 biller for Michael Page Japan in 2021 and member of the top-10 in Michael Page Asia. 

Alkis grew up in Athens, Greece. He studied in the UK in Durham University and Lancaster University. He then moved on to the Council of Europe in Strasbourg for an internship, worked for a year in Athens, fulfilled his military obligation right after and came to Japan in January 2020. When not recruiting you’ll find him trying delicious food, playing sports, travelling or all at the same time! 

Connect with Alkis

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/alkis-kotzampasis-5a171812a/

Email: alkis.kotzampasis@michaelpage.co.jpInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/just.alkis/ 

Links

Talent Trends Report:

English: https://www.michaelpage.co.jp/en/talent-trends/the-great-x 

Japanese: https://www.michaelpage.co.jp/talent-trends/the-great-x 

Bar Amber: http://baramber.jp/

Aladdin: http://www.persia-aladdin.com/ 

Connect with Catherine 

Linked In https://www.linkedin.com/in/oconnellcatherine/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lawyeronair

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/catherine.oconnell.148

Twitter: https://twitter.com/oconnelllawyer 

Transcript

Catherine: Hi everyone. Welcome to this bonus episode in Season Three of Lawyer on Air. As I have spoken with my fabulous women guests on Season One, Two and Three so far, it's occurred to me that the legal recruitment process is pivotal to securing legal roles in Japan. I thought it would be really helpful for listeners on the podcast if I had a legal recruiter on the show to share insights on the hiring process in Japan, trends being seen, and to share some interesting stories about where we are at emerging from this pandemic. There are people who find legal roles in Japan through word of mouth and personal introductions, but upward of 80% of roles are placed with and assisted by recruiters.

In Japan there are more than 100 recruitment agencies and of those, there are specialist recruitment firms such as those specialising in legal recruitment only. Recruiters are typically paid a commission by companies searching for candidates they introduce, that are subsequently hired. And right now legal recruiters across Japan, particularly Tokyo, are saying that they are experiencing the most active job market conditions in the past three years.

So today I'm joined by Alkis Kotzampasis. Who is manager of legal compliance and risk in the legal recruitment team at Michael Page in Tokyo, the Tokyo office was launched in 2001, which means they saw their 20th anniversary in 2021. Alkis assists hiring clients and candidates searching for legal compliance and risk positions in Tokyo, working across seniorities, practice areas and industries for both in-house and law firms.

He's often consulted for immediate hiring needs or for longer term consultation leading up to searches, supporting both contingency searches and retained searches. And his focus, as I mentioned, focuses both on law firms and in-house. He has successfully introduced legal candidates in different industries, such as technology, finance, energy and others.

And in varying seniority, such as legal counsel, legal director, compliance manager, associate and partner level. Well, in terms of personal accolades, Alkis was the number one biller for Michael Page Japan in 2021. And he's a member of the top 10 in Michael Page Asia. He grew up in Athens, Greece, and he came to Japan in January, 2020.

And when he's not recruiting, you'll see him out and about in town trying delicious food, playing sports, travelling, or he tells me doing all of those at the same time. Well, let's get into it. I'm very pleased to bring you Alkis as my special guest today. Welcome to the show.

Alkis: Thank you very much. Very pleased to be here Catherine.

Catherine: Lovely to have you. And I'd really like to ask you the same question I ask all my women guests. If we were meeting up in person, where would we be? Because you're obviously out and about eating and drinking. Do you have a favourite wine bar or restaurant you'd go to and what would be your choice off the menu?

Alkis: Yeah. So I often go to Bahrain in Azabu and there I like the siesta cocktail. Basically it's a mix of tequila, lime, grapefruit and Campari. It's a sweet and sour cocktail. And you'll also find me in Aladdin in Hiroo. This is an Iranian restaurant and I enjoy the Iranian cuisine.

It falls close to home, so it's comfort food for me. But however, I would generally enjoy exploring any neighbourhood and popping in any bar or restaurant that I find nice from the outside. Generally, that's how I found quite a lot of hidden gems around the city.

Catherine: That's great. I mean, you go around Tokyo and go to a restaurant for your lunch and dinner, a different place every day. You'd never get round all of them, would you really?

Alkis: Exactly. Yeah. So that's why, especially in the weekends, when I have time, I just sometimes pick up an area that I have never visited and walk around with friends or my girlfriend and explore.

Catherine: Oh, exciting. I might see you around because Tokyo is big, but it's actually very small. And recently there's been some podcast guests that I've just bumped into around and about. And it's been quite funny when you realise how small Tokyo actually is. 

I know that you've been listening to the podcast through seasons one, two, and you're catching up on three.

And you told me the other day before we started to record and think about today's episode and how we'd like it to be. You said that you were catching up and listening to some old podcasts and you found some very useful advice in there. Can I ask you what you saw or heard that stood out for you?

Just listening back.

Alkis: Thanks for the question. So I will single out two things on that one. First of all, I have found particularly useful Angela Krantz's advice from the very first episode of the podcast on how she controls her calendar

Catherine: Oh, yes.

Alkis: And works on different matters based on her own priority. I found this advice particularly useful as a young manager. I've realised that we have to handle a lot of tasks and it's quite easy to be overwhelmed and let the day control you instead of you controlling the day.

That's why I'm doing my best to work on matters based on how I prioritise them and not based on external pressure that I might be getting from people, either clients, or my boss, or candidates and so on. So that's the first thing that I would single out. 

And then the second is a little bit more general, but I have found especially inspirational how many people with different stories you've brought to the podcast.

And I think that's a big lesson from a recruitment perspective as well. No matter where you are and where you are starting, you can point your career in the direction you want. I've come across several bright individuals who pivoted their career to totally different directions than what is common.

And it's also beautiful to see from your podcast stories of women, defying the odds and achieving their targets.

Catherine: Whoa. That's lovely. Thank you so much. That gives me goosebumps and a warm feeling to hear that. And to think Angela on the first episode, that she's still inspiring many, many people, and I think calendar control was one of her key points. Thanks so much. And also those inspirational stories, yes. We are all getting to various places along our direction, and there is no one path. And I know we're gonna talk about a bit of that today. So thank you for calling those two out. 

Let's jump in then as a legal recruiter, what is that recruitment process looking like in Japan these days and how long is it taking from when people start their application right through to being hired? What are the key steps there?

Alkis: Yeah. So application to starting date takes roughly three months, more or less. Essentially one month would be for the interview process then a couple of weeks for getting the offer approvals and negotiating the offer. And then around one and a half months notice period. That's what it usually looks like.

Catherine: I see. And that hasn't changed over the years. That sounds fairly familiar to what I experienced, although perhaps it was a little bit longer than three months, but have you seen any differences then over the last few years?

Alkis: Not really, it differs company by company. So essentially companies that hire often know how important the speed is. So they have managed to shorten their processes to even two or two and a half months, but companies that do not hire often, sometimes it may take a little bit longer to arrange interviews.

It might take a little bit longer for approvals, so it might actually end up being around four months. So the difference is based on the company or based on the law firm, rather than it was different few years ago than now.

Catherine: Right. That's good. Three to four months. That's really good to hear. And what are you seeing from your hiring managers and law firms and in-house, what are they actually looking for? We've heard some other special guests on the show talk about secondments aren't that important. It's about the way the person behaves, their business skills, their soft skills and of course their hard letter law, the qualifications.

But what else are you seeing there as right in the recruitment scene?

Alkis: I would focus on the soft skills mainly and divide my answer between in-house and law firms. So in-house the most important skill is commerciality. So the ability of the lawyer to give advice relevant to business decisions. And not very strictly law advice.

So the ability to operate in the grey or being able to judge what's important for the business, but also what's important to have the company covered from a legal perspective. And then, on the law firm side, the main priority is the willingness to learn. And how hungry is someone to work, which is why also law firms typically prefer to hire associates at a more junior level.

As a couple of partners have actually told me, it's quite difficult to teach an old dog new tricks. So on the law firm perspective, I'd say the willingness to learn is the most important factor. Of course, a good law school will get you the interview, but it will not help you pass the interview.

So as long as you get the interview, then you really have to put your personality in it.

Catherine: Ah, it'll help you get the interview, but not pass the interview. Very key.

Well, what's hot right now? What industries and sectors are hot? I'm hearing a lot about sustainability in ESG and getting women on boards at executive level, and also a lot of talk about legal tech and DX transformation.

Digital transformation, right? DX. What are you seeing there?

Alkis: Globally, I would agree with you that ESG and women’s leadership are one of the focal points of conversations. However, in Japan right now, I think, technology and energy are the two hottest industries. Technology, of course, it's a global trend, with working from home and a lot of innovative software that has come to market.

This has generated a lot of positions, in business functions as well as on the legal side. And then energy in particular, especially in Japan, it has been a quite hot topic, both in terms of renewable energy projects, especially offshore, wind, as well as energy infrastructure projects. A lot of Japanese companies are investing around Southeast Asia and the Middle East.

Even in Europe recently, I think with the Russia Ukraine crisis, energy is sort of coming to the forefront of conversation. In addition to technology and energy, we still have a lot of positions in finance and healthcare, which are a little bit more regulated industries, more traditional industries.

So there we get more backfill positions, more replacement positions rather than new opportunities.

Catherine: I see. Okay. I've gotta go back a couple of steps. Cause I forgot to ask you about why it is in Japan that most people tend to use recruiters. I said in the beginning, upwards of 80%, but is there some particular reason why in Japan recruitment companies are really the main source for hiring methods? For me, my personal bias is that Japan's very much based on an introduction kind of community and culture.

Is that more prevalent here? 

Alkis: I think the most important thing is that recruiters take a lot of the burden off a job search.

Catherine: Hmm.

Alkis: Namely, we provide market research before you start applying. Secondly, we can give a summary of available positions that maybe, for a candidate, it can take a while to look at different websites or ask their friends what position exists. Instead recruiters, we can just give a list ready. 

Also we have information generally on salaries in the market and not just for the one job that you may be applying to. So that's really helpful coming to the negotiation stage to realise how much is a candidate’s value on the market and how much they can actually negotiate. 

And fourthly, which is quite important as well, we assist with all the interview arrangements and make sure that all the timelines match up, when a candidate is about to get an offer. It's quite common that some offers, some processes run faster than others. So having that alignment and making sure that all offers come at the same time is really helpful for the decision making in the end.

Catherine: That's great. And for me also, I found it was great having a cushion in between me and the company I was going to work for, or applying to work for. It just gave a little bit of a position where I could speak quite freely with the recruiter. And then I could give quite candid feedback and I think the recruiter would determine what to filter through or how to say it, or probably in a different way than I might say it right in the thick of it.

Do you see what I mean? So I think a recruiter really gives some help, a real help that you almost can't put a finger on it. It's kind of qualitative in the way that you are able to express a candidate's emotions or feelings or feedback rather than doing it too directly. I think that's also something I picked up.

Alkis: Exactly. That's an excellent point. And everything I mentioned is why you should use recruiters globally, not just in Japan. What you're referring to I think is especially relevant to the Japan market because it's such a small market and recruiters essentially help you keep the anonymity and assist with a lot of the sensitive negotiation points, or discussions that may arise during the job process.

Catherine: Right. And you mentioned the sensitivity there, but are there any peculiarities about Japan, specifically for hiring, perhaps with your firm here compared to other offices that you're dealing with? Is there something special about the way hiring is done in the Japan market? 

Alkis: One of the main challenges that we are facing is how unique the Japan market is. So especially when working on the client side with clients who are headquartered in Europe or the US, or anywhere in Asia for that matter, it's quite difficult to help the international stakeholders understand the Japan market.

So I'd say that's the main peculiarity with it.

Catherine: So you've been here in the Tokyo market the last two and a half years. Is that right?

Alkis: Correct.

Catherine: Well, what drew you to the Tokyo market? Why do you love being here, apart from the restaurants you talked about that you love investigating, what else is here that really makes you feel like you wanna stay in Tokyo a little while longer?

Alkis: I came here totally as a fluke. It was pure luck that I arrived here. Essentially while I was studying in the UK, I was planning to either stay in England or work in the US maybe. I didn't really want to work in Greece. And there in England, I met my girlfriend, who is Iranian, but she has grown up in Japan.

And while I was doing my job search, she asked me, well, you know, you're considering to live somewhere outside Greece. Why haven't you tried Japan? And I'm always out for an adventure. So I just said, sure, let's give it a shot. And I got my job at Michael Page. It started going fairly well. And that's how it all started.

Now, what's keeping me here? I'd say it's a country with beautiful weather, beautiful food, and a lot of places to explore both within Tokyo as well as in the countryside. So it's a very happy place to be.

Catherine: Mm. So does that adventurous kind of spirit help you in the way that you are also helping candidates think about coming to work in Japan?

Alkis: I do think it helps me because it gives me the ability to think outside the box. And in many cases, there are standard ways that things are done, but there's also several pathways that a candidate can explore that are a little bit less common. And I'm very much encouraging sometimes the candidates to take the less common shots.

And in some cases it has been quite successful.

Catherine: Mm, that sounds great. I love that. And yeah, being an adventurous spirit in Japan really matters because it takes you from different places, right from in-house to back to private practices. I did, and then private practice out again to do something new. And I think you do need an adventurous spirit while you are here.

Alkis: Exactly. Actually, my first placement in a law firm was from a lawyer coming from in-house and I remember talking with the managing partner to get the details of what they are looking for the position, and the managing partner told me, ideally, they want someone from another law firm, but I still felt like I had the right candidate who is in-house, so I just sent them across.

And that's how they got the role.

Catherine: Wow. That's great. I mean, that doesn't happen very often in the market. It has happened, and I think I've heard a little bit more recently that that has happened, but that's almost a story in itself. What it was about the in-house candidate in that particular case without giving away anything, but how was it that that was the right person for that job? How did you know that?

Alkis: Yeah. Sometimes there are small details on the resume of a candidate, especially when lawyers are listing their deal list. There might be a company that a candidate has worked with or has worked at, that could be the client of that law firm, or could be one of the competitive, one of the clients they would like to BD in that law firm. So small details like that can grab the attention of the partner, and give you an interview. And once you get an interview, you have one step in the door essentially. If you show how much you want the job, there are more chances you're gonna get it.

Catherine: Right. That's great. And so you're seeing their kind of career and their capabilities in a matrix form rather than too linear and working out how things can work quite nicely for a law firm. And obviously in this case, it worked very nicely.

Alkis: Exactly. Yeah.

There are small bullet points in everyone's resumes that can be particularly interesting if you read through all of it.

Catherine: Very good. Well, how would you describe this current market? It seems to be better than it ever has been. And I know before we got onto this call today, we were talking a little bit more generally with one other person in your firm, who's a keen supporter of the podcast as well, Tom McMahon, and you talked about pay rises and offers coming at the same time for candidates.

That kind of situation I don't know was really very prevalent before, but I'm a little out of touch. So I'm really happy for you to enlighten me, describing the current market and what you are seeing.

Alkis: Yeah, that's very accurate. It's not uncommon that candidates get three or four job offers during a search. The reason is the lack of bilingual and bicultural talent that always existed in Japan combined with a lot of new roles that have resulted from the boom after the COVID recession.

This combination has led to a lot of positions and few candidates. It's a very much a candidate driven market. And that's why we see those salary increases. And we see candidates getting several offers at once.

Catherine: Oh, interesting. So tell us a bit more, because we are hearing this great resignation word thrown around a lot, and I'm not sure if we're seeing it in Japan, as much as we are perhaps in the United States. I'm reading a lot about it there. Is that happening? Tell us a little bit more about that. And these so-called push and pull factors we were talking about as well when we were having our very interesting pre-discussion.

Alkis: Yeah. So again, I'm gonna break my answer into the candidate side, and the client side. So on the candidate's side, the great resignation is not as much a major thing as it is in the us. So you will not see people quitting and not having a next job lined up just because they want better welfare.

However, we have seen a shifting mindset in regards to work purpose. Japan traditionally has been a risk averse society where people rarely are changing jobs. However, in our recent talent trends survey, we actually observed that only 10% of the people who answered are certain that they are not going to resign in the next six months.

And around 70% mentioned that they are considering resigning in the next six months. So that definitely indicates a shift of mindset, although it is moving a little bit slower compared to the US. 

Now on the employer side, yes, we have seen employers going to extraordinary lengths to secure and retain talent.

I had a very interesting story. About 10, 11 months ago, essentially, I was helping an attorney move from one international law firm to another.

Catherine: Mm. 

Alkis: Just a couple of days before his last day, his current employer offered him a 150,000 retention bonus US dollars.

So 150,000 US dollars retention bonus in order to stay with the current law firm. And I had a conversation with the candidate who mentioned to me that, they are not really moving for money. So they would be quite happy to let the 150 K go in order to achieve the rest of their priorities.

And after the candidate rejected the retention bonus, the current employer came back with an even higher retention bonus at 200,000 US dollars. Which again, of course money was not a priority for the candidate I was assisting. But 200 K is quite a lot of money. So essentially I had to get back to the firm that ended up hiring him and asked if they can give a little bit of a signing bonus so that they can close the gap and they offered a 50 K signing bonus.

Then the candidate rejected his current employer's offer and he just moved. I think that indicates first of all, it's very important for employers to appreciate talent while it's still in the company. If you make a counter offer when someone has already decided to leave, it's a little bit too late. And the other thing it indicates is, it's relevant to the pull and push factors that you'd mentioned, it's the burden is very much on the employer right now to persuade a candidate why they should join their company. That's why I also feel the interview process is a two way process.

A company is evaluating a candidate, whether they fit their role, but the candidate is also evaluating whether that particular company or law firm, fulfills their aspirations.

Catherine: Mm, I wanted to go back to, you mentioned the candidates these days, although risk averse, their mindset and work purpose is changing. How's that changing? Then when you try and explain that work purpose to the hiring side, the potential employer side, how does that get explained to them? How are you helping the employers understand a candidate's work purpose?

Alkis: A lot of more focus is placed on wellbeing and mental health and mental happiness. Another interesting finding from our talent trends survey is that 65% of people wouldn't sacrifice wellbeing for more salary. Which comes in contrast with what we were seeing in the past, where salary was the number one criterion for people to switch positions.

So the main change is around our society, and the employees being much more aware of their mental health and much more cautious of working in a happy environment.

On the client side, I've seen something similar actually in regards to trends. So in many cases, there might be an excellent candidate who may have a little bit of an attitude or may not be that excited during the interview process.

And in many cases, even if that candidate on paper is the perfect candidate for the job, they might still not get the position because the clients and hiring managers are also very conscious that whoever they hire, they will have to work with them eight, nine hours a day, or maybe even more. And that's why there's a lot of focus on the chemistry and the connection there as well.

Catherine: That's very interesting. I wonder if that talent trends report is going to be available. Can we link to it in the show notes perhaps?

Alkis: Absolutely. Yeah.

Catherine: Thank you very much for letting us link it. I think it'll be very interesting to see those changes. And I know one of the other things that used to be was there was a kind of taboo or a rule that if you're in finance, you couldn't move over to tech. Or if you're a corporate lawyer, you couldn't move into a regulated industry.

And I found that held me back myself. For a while when I was always a manufacturing genba at the coalface kind of lawyer. And I didn't really look to pharmaceutical kinds of jobs or healthcare. Whereas when I actually started to do one, it was through persuasion or through good advice from a recruiter that I did do that kind of role as well and tried it. And I think that's interesting because there seems to be this sort of, if you're one thing you can't be another, and you talked a little bit about that earlier. Can you explain some more about how the recruiter helps there?

And I can give you my insights as well, if that's interesting for you, but those transferable skills, is that what it is? Or what's going on there to help people to move, or to think differently about new roles in different industries or sectors?

Alkis: Absolutely. Yes. Again it is very possible for lawyers to move between industries. A lot of people have switched between finance and technology, for example, recently. I think most of the placements I've done in technology are actually lawyers with a finance background. Then I've also seen people moving from technology to manufacturing or even people moving from manufacturing to healthcare and healthcare is an interesting one because it really used to be a case of musical chairs.

A lot of lawyers just moved between the biggest healthcare firms, but now they are also way more open to legal professionals who may not have the healthcare experience. And I don't think candidates need very much of the persuasion of the recruiter to do that one. Candidates on their own are very much willing to explore new industries and very much willing to learn. I think the only part where we would contribute as recruiters is to give the encouragement that yes, it is actually possible and then recommend the particular positions where this can actually happen.

So the recruiter comes essentially with a validation that, you can do this, but most of the candidates on their own, they're already quite hungry to learn more, quite hungry to do something new. So we just give the validation essentially.

Catherine: I think that's it actually, the encouragement and validation, because I think in my personal case, it was a sort of self limitation I was putting. That I'm only this kind of lawyer, I can't do another sector, or industry, but when I actually opened up and was encouraged to do that from the particular recruiter who helped me in that case, it was a case of me opening up and not limiting myself and finding that, ah, I do in fact have these transferable skills that work beyond. 

And yes, there's a learning curve of course, for a new industry, but there's a lot that will transfer over if your mind is open to it. That's what I found. Yeah.

Alkis: Exactly. The tougher part here I think is to persuade or educate, educate the hiring manager to be open for a candidate from another industry, but due to the nature of the job market, this very much happens by itself. So if a hiring manager has a position open for a long time, six months, maybe a year, then they'll just become more open to someone who may have the soft skills, or maybe a cultural fit. So in the beginning hiring managers start with a fairly narrow mindset that they want a very specific type of candidate, but as time progresses and they haven't filled their role, that's when they become more flexible.

So it's a little bit more difficult for a recruiter to influence on that side.

Catherine: But I think you do influence. I remember some of my positions I applied for was it definitely had to be Japanese bengoshi, a Japanese lawyer. Couldn't be a foreigner or it couldn't be someone who was foreign qualified and it ended up that obviously I'm not Japanese. I got the position. So there was a lot of movement there and I'm not sure what quite happens in the background, but there must definitely be some influence and encouragement from the recruiter side to help the employer understand that this person can do all the things you need.

You just need to get over that mental bump, I suppose, of needing a Japanese bengoshi for every role. And of course, Japanese bengoshi certainly needed in particular roles where they are a good fit. It all depends. But at times there is this transition from what the job description read to the actual candidate that they hire in the end.

And that transition's quite interesting. It must be very rewarding for you in your position and as a satisfaction of what you do that you can persuade or encourage those kinds of changes as well.

Alkis: You're raising another excellent point here. It's one more misconception in the market that most positions are open for Japanese bengoshi, which it's clearly not the case. And indeed this is a situation where our recruiter can influence and explain to a company, what are the skills that a foreign lawyer can also bring to the table, either native Japanese, or a foreigner who speaks Japanese. So absolutely, with the exception of some very specialised roles, mainly in finance and healthcare, I would say that most positions are doable for every attorney. And in the worst case scenario, you can always use a law firm. If you come to the need of needing a Japanese bengoshi.

Catherine: That is true. Well, what else are you seeing in that trends report that you mentioned? I'm really interested to hear. Is there anything else in the talent trends report that pops up that would be really useful to mention at the moment?

Alkis: I think the summary from the talent trends report is that, compared to salary, which used to be the number one priority, there are a lot of other priorities right now that employees care more about, including mental wellbeing that we mentioned, secondly, remote opportunities, thirdly, flexible working arrangements.

So all these extra benefits are starting to matter way more than before when someone makes a decision to change jobs. And a very interesting theme that I really liked seeing actually was that a big motivation for people to change jobs is to have a greater sense of purpose in the company they go to.

Catherine: That's right. Purpose. And what is that? Was there more depth in that, what they mean by purpose? For me, it's like making an impact, actually joining a company and being able to transition their company into a new kind of contribution to society, but also within that person that they have personally felt their purpose has been achieved to impact others and the environment in social and community.

Is that getting to what you're talking about or is there something else there as well?

Alkis: I have specific examples from my personal experience about different things that give people a sense of purpose. It's as if everyone essentially has their own bucket list about things that they want to achieve in their career, and they try to achieve. 

For instance, some people like to have a very challenging role and work in a company after a merger, essentially helping the integration process. Then other people are very excited to bring their bicultural element to the table and assist perhaps a foreign company, which is struggling in Japan, because of the cultural difference. A system to merge these two cultures and act as the in betweener who softens things up. 

Other people are excited to work on startup projects.

Other people are excited to work in companies that maybe have not been doing as well but they are looking for a restart. So that's some examples of purpose that people may have during their careers.

Catherine: Mm, I'm thinking of the bicultural one. I like that. The elements that assist a company to be an in betweener who softens things up. I think that's probably my purpose in what I do right now. I love you calling that out. Thank you so much. And how about then future of law? What are you seeing in your crystal ball gazing?

I know you've got the report there, but how about you? What trends are you thinking that might be coming into Tokyo and around the globe? I think it would be very interesting to hear those from you.

Alkis: So again, I'm going to divide it between hard skills, things that you see on the resume and then soft skills.

Catherine: Yes.

Alkis: So we mentioned the most trending industries are technology and renewables. And within these two industries, I see increased specialisation. So I've seen cases where attorneys are not just a lawyer who specialises in technology for instance, but they may be lawyers who are specialising within a technology sector.

For instance, the cloud is something that is very much on the rise and especially in Japan, for instance, there are many attorneys specialising on regulations around the cloud. And then in energy, it's quite similar. We have so many different kinds of renewable energy, like offshore wind, onshore wind, solar and so on.

So we do see deeper specialisations within the hottest industries right now. 

The second, I'm not sure if it's a recent trend or not, but again I'd like to highlight the importance of showing your good personality when you're working with people. And, essentially that's what makes a placement successful, finding the right chemistry between the hiring manager and the person they hire.

If the match is there on paper, but the right chemistry doesn't exist between the two people, it's quite likely that one of the two is gonna start looking soon again.

Catherine: It's so true. I mean, I think back to Royanne Doi. I'm not sure if you've listened to Royanne's episode, but she talks about that she met her hiring manager and they sat down and they were just talking so incredibly, deeply and widely that she just knew that's the person I want to work with.

You know, the chemistry was right there. And I think for me if I think about the previous most recent corporate role that I had before coming and changing business and working for myself, was that across the table meeting the CFO and having a great chat and also the general council and thinking I can work with these people.

I'm gonna spend most of my day with them. I can work with these people and that's so important.

Alkis: Yeah, that's my story as well. Very similar. I had to choose between three companies when I was coming to Japan and essentially with the people that hired me here, I remember the interview was about 10 or 15 minutes about my skills and why I wanted to do recruitment and 45 minutes casual conversation around football or how we grew up, and generally non-work related topics. And that's how I knew that the chemistry is there.

Catherine: Yeah. And I mean, when you are interviewing candidates too, you need to know those sorts of things. You don't have to go into the nitty gritty so much as you just have to get a rapport with them, because then you know how they're gonna be when you describe them to the hiring managers as well and vice versa.

So I think it's really important. And again, you're drawing from your own experience as am I, and when we go through and help others to look for and think about changing careers and what they look for in their next step. Wow. Very exciting. Is there anything else that I've missed here that you'd like to talk about?

Alkis: Yes, I was gonna add that's also very relevant to people switching between different industries. Cause if they manage to build that rapport and that chemistry with a hiring manager from a different industry, they are still very much going to get hired.

Catherine: Mm. Well, how about the younger end of the market? Maybe there are some people who want to come to Japan and work here. And I know with the Angela Krantz episode you mentioned, they really only look for people who've had two or three years in another country, another jurisdiction, a little bit under their belt before coming here.

Is there any kind of advice for people, perhaps young to mid year career lawyers who are looking for their next purpose? What would you say?

Alkis: Do you want to talk about entry level here or people who are already having two, three years of experience?

Catherine: I think if you're looking at the Tokyo market, you could have people who are two to three years’ experience, but there's also some who are sort of really quite new. So what advice would you have for those younger lawyers?

Alkis: Yeah, that's a very difficult one because usually these people, it's difficult for a recruiter to help them, especially it's quite rare for international companies or international law firms in Japan to hire entry level people. As Ken also mentioned in the previous episode, they hire a lot of people from the US and they bring them over to Japan.

But if I had to give an answer, I would probably say that it's important to show someone's commitment to Japan. If we are talking about foreign lawyers. Whether that is for personal reasons or because of a passion towards Japan. Or by knowing the language. Essentially the commitment to working here is what a lot of hiring managers are trying to see.

Catherine: Mm

Alkis: Yeah, when it comes to bengoshi it's a fairly straight career path, law firm and then in-house.

It's a bit difficult to give standout advice on that one.

Catherine: And then I guess too going through, cause you mostly hire people who have had a bit of experience in the market or other markets. How about advice for that group of people then, the ones who've been out maybe three to six years post qualification have a little bit of experience?

Is there any kind of advice or guidance or things you think would be useful tips or maybe pitfalls to avoid as they move through their career?

Alkis: So, yeah, mainly I have three suggestions to people who are looking on how to build up their career. Firstly, to be patient about it. So sometimes the right position may take a while to come up. 

For instance, at the moment I'm working on about 40 or 45 opportunities on my own, however, I'm still speaking to some candidates that I wouldn't advise them to go for any of these forty positions. 

Secondly, be quite organised when going about a job search. So remember where you have applied, don't overload yourself with applications, just focus on two, three applications and try to maximise the results. 

And thirdly, have clarity on your priorities.

So making sure you know which factors will make you decide on which job you want to accept, and also, make sure you know what you want to achieve from a job search. Because as a recruiter, I cannot tell you what your most important priority is, but I can help you find what you want based on the priorities that you give me.

Catherine: Yeah. And I think often you will hear it in what they say and listening to how they say things, but focus, be patient, be organised, have clarity on your priorities. That's top class advice. Really, really great. Is there anything else that you might have, for example, tips on how people can actually best interact with a recruiter and get the most out of the relationship?

Alkis: Absolutely. And here I think, based on our previous conversation, you may also have to add your experience from your career so far. Essentially my biggest advice would be, don't be afraid to outreach a recruiter. Even if you're not looking for a job. Around 90% of the interactions I have every week are with people who are just curious to find out information about the job market and not with people that are looking.

I'm very happy to provide this information. Very happy to have that conversation. 

Catherine: It's a great idea. And also, yeah, we did talk about my own experience, which was like any other relationship you have, business personal, you don't just leave it, and only call on it when you need it. Like you've just been saying, don't be afraid to ask a recruiter, but you know, it's a two way street.

And so I find that the best relationships I've had have been where I've kept up with a recruiter. And you might forget about keeping in touch, but if you put it in the diary, in your calendar, you will be able to do that. And sometimes it's not always about the potential candidate finding out information.

It's also helping the recruiter with the information you've got on your current role or inspiration or insights that you've seen. And so I feel it's really that two way street and it's really important. Probably, if we go back to Angela Krantz, she's one of the people who I admire because she's been able to do that all through her career. She just has a list full of people who she really, really likes in the recruitment industry.

And some she's working with, some she's not, but she keeps in touch with them. And I think that's really key to most of our relationships. And it certainly applies in this case.

Alkis: Very much indeed. And to add to that, if we have a chat today and you tell me what your dream job is, and then I see your dream job maybe in six months, one year, two years from now. I'll remember you and I'll send it across. And that's how a lot of moves happen.

Catherine: Exactly. How are you going to read my mind if I don't tell you and let you know? So I think that's fantastic. 

Alkis: I just want to add to the previous question. That's also very much from the hiring manager side. So I know a lot of law firms especially are hiring quite passively here only when they find a really good candidate. So it's a very similar case. Keeping in touch with a hiring manager today and the hiring manager explaining to me what they want.

What kind of talent they would like to hire in the long term again will help me remember them when I find this particular talent and I can always send it across to them. So that's also on the hiring manager side, how keeping in touch with the recruiter can help . 

Catherine: Well, we're about to round up today, but Alkis anything else that you would like to mention?

Alkis: I would like to thank you very much for having me here. I have been listening to the podcast for a while now. And I always have thought that your listeners might benefit from a recruiter's perspective. So I was very delighted to get the invitation. And I want to add that I know that in many cases, recruiters have a sort of a notorious reputation for chasing the money.

But I do believe that it's similar with law. It is very much a service job where you have to do justice by your clients and candidates, advising them how to find the best opportunity. And there is actually a Greek word here called philotimo. It doesn't translate to English. Essentially it means having a sense of purpose and honouring one's responsibilities without allowing your dignity to be sidelined and that's very much what I try to bring in my recruitment practice. I always try to give objective advice, even if that means that a lawyer may choose a job that is not through me.

Catherine: Mm, well, there you just said it. Is that philotimo, did you say?

Alkis: Exactly. Yeah.

Catherine: Honouring one's responsibilities, purpose, and sometimes it may not be the one that you introduce them to.

Alkis: I had actually a case just last week where a candidate came to me and told me, Hey, Alkis, I have a job offer, but I want to see some comparisons. Do you have anything to give me? And I advised her with the three best positions that I believe would suit her background.

And in the end, I was like, however, I think your offer is quite good. So if I were you, I would probably take it.

Catherine: Whoa, there you go. Wow. That's really showing what it's like. Right. That's being human, and being true to the person and really caring for them. I think that just sums everything up.

Alkis: Yeah, my dad always used to say, you don't have to chase the money. If you're good at what you do, the money is always gonna come.

Just try to be good at your job.

Catherine: So true. I really love that. Well, thank you so much for coming on and wow, the inspiration coming right there at the end. Thank you very much for being on this special episode. I know one of your colleagues said no, Catherine only introduces, and has, women guests and women lawyers on the show.

You'll never be able to appear. So I'm very glad to have challenged that, to have had some diversity come in. We have to represent 50% of the listeners who are males. And I'm glad that we've had a few come through so far and that you've joined the ranks as well. I really have enjoyed today. Thank you very, very much.

Alkis: Thank you very much. And it's nice to be here.

Catherine: Great. And I'm so glad that you've been able to share all your thoughts. And I think there'll be people who really would like to get in touch with you after this. How can they connect with you? What's the best way? Is it through your contact page on your website or are you also on LinkedIn?

Alkis: Yeah. So I am on LinkedIn and obviously quite active as a recruiter. And also I'll give my email address down there in case someone wants to outreach via email directly. And we'll also include my Instagram, but that has more personal posts.

Catherine: Oh, I didn't realise you're on Instagram. Great. I'll connect with you there too. So thank you very much. We'll put all of that into the show notes. So anyone who's interested in connecting can actually reach out to you. No problem?

Alkis: Yes, no problem at all.

Catherine: Great. Great. Okay. Well for my listeners, please do like this episode, it's been so exciting, subscribe to Lawyer on Air, so you don't miss out.

And we would love to hear a short review. If you've got time to leave one on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, whichever one you are listening to. I love hearing your actual voice telling me what you think about the guests and what you'd like to hear, we are really happy to hear that. So please share this episode with someone you think may enjoy listening to how hiring is done in the Japanese market.

And we'd love to have them inspired to lead a wonderful lawyer extraordinaire life. Cheers, kampai and bye for now.

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