A full transcript follows.

Overcoming glass ceilings, cultural differences and English language challenges, Junko Mukoyama is my next inspirational guest on Lawyer on Air. She explains how Japan has changed so much in just one generation but also the barriers she came up against in her career and how she took control of her career and ended up smashing through them. 

If you enjoyed this episode and it inspired you in some way, we’d love to hear about it and know your biggest takeaway. Head over to Apple Podcasts to leave a review and we’d love it if you would leave us a message here!

In this episode you’ll hear:

• How Junko came to be a lawyer at a time the women often didn’t work outside the home in Japan

• What Junko did when people told her to “be satisfied with what she had achieved”

• How Junko balances Japanese and Western culture in her work and how it helps her to achieve her potential in her life too

• Junko’s advice for young lawyers who are worried about their English level

• Her favourite books and other fun facts 

About Junko

Junko is a board member and senior corporate counsel of Avaya Japan Ltd.  Avaya provides products and services to enhance and simplify communications and collaborations.  She is in charge of all legal matters for the Japan operations including contract negotiation, compliance, personal data protection and dispute resolution. Before she joined Avaya in 2004, she worked for Yuasa and Hara as a trademark attorney and for Nihon Unisys Ltd.  She is a member of the Japan Patent Attorney Association and New York State Bar.  She received LLB from Chuo University, and Master of Laws from University of Illinois, Urbana Champaign and Waseda University.  She has been studying bankruptcy and IP at a graduate school of law and published articles in bankruptcy and IP fields.  She is a member of AIPPI, INTA, JTA, ABI and INSOL.

Connect with Junko 

To connect with Junko, please contact Catherine O’Connell

Links

Ikiru Bokura 生きる僕ら：原田マハ

Connect with Catherine 

Linked In https://www.linkedin.com/in/oconnellcatherine/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lawyeronair

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/catherine.oconnell.148

Twitter: https://twitter.com/oconnelllawyer 

Transcript:

Catherine: Hi, everyone. Welcome to another episode in Season Three of Lawyer on Air. I'm the host of the show, Catherine O'Connell. Today I am joined by Junko Mukoyama. Junko is senior corporate counsel and member of the board at Avaya Japan Limited where she has worked for the last 18 years since August 2004.

Avaya is an American multinational technology company headquartered in Durham, North Carolina. They specialise in cloud communications and workstream collaboration solutions. We've all, no doubt, used an Avaya teleconferencing system. I've certainly had many used in my previous roles and it was really the go-to teleconferencing system way before Zoom and other apps that we use now.

So at Avaya Junko is responsible for overseeing all aspects of legal matters in Japan, from preparation of contracts, through to handling mergers and acquisitions and dispute resolution. She does this in collaboration with Avaya's business team in Japan, the US and other countries. Junko's role also sees her advising on business schemes and developments for the Japan market.

She prepares and negotiates various business and marketing agreements that are based on worldwide templates, but they are modified for the business and market conditions in Japan. Junko is also involved in compliance and established the compliance program at Avaya Japan to enable management and employees to observe Japanese law, such as anti-corruption law, personal information protection law, subcontractor protection law, and employment law, as well as observance of Avaya global policy.

Junko worked with key business members to execute and consummate Avaya's acquisition of the networking business from Nortel and Radvision in Japan. She also assisted with the documentation and regulatory aspects of Avaya Japan for the chapter 11 procedure filed in Avaya US specific to the US. Before she joined Avaya in 2004, Junko worked for Yuasa and Hara as a trademark attorney.

And she also worked for Nihon Unisys Limited. She's a member of the Japan Patent Attorney Association and the New York Bar. Junko received her LLB from Chuo University and a Master's of Law from the University of Illinois and Waseda University.

Junko is a lifetime learner. She's been studying bankruptcy and intellectual property at a graduate school of law. And she's also published articles in the bankruptcy and IP fields. She's also making time to contribute to a number of organisations as a member of the International Association for the Protection of Intellectual Property, the International Trademark Association, the Japan Trademark Association, Japan America Bankruptcy Institute, and INSOL, which is a worldwide federation of national associations for accountants and lawyers who specialise in turnaround and insolvency.

Well, in her spare time, she enjoys reading novels and watching movies. Her favourite author is Maha Harada, and she likes musical movies such as The Phantom of the Opera and Les Miserables. Junko also likes running and she tells me that running keeps her refreshed in her mind, as well as her physical condition.

Well, that's a super big story about Junko, but really in a nutshell, and we'll go into more details soon. I'm really pleased to bring you Junko as my guest today. Junko, welcome to the show.

Junko: Thank you very much for your nice introduction Catherine, and thank you very much for having me here. It’s my great pleasure and I look forward to speaking with you in detail.

Catherine: Oh, thank you so much. It's so lovely to see you again just before on the camera. And now we're off camera, but gosh, I'm going to be talking today with you about your career path, the things that have happened along your journey, your study in Japan and the US, your work in law and compliance, and I'd really love you to, if you can, provide some tips and ideas for the next generation of in-house counsel and associates who are coming up the ranks behind you. Are you ready?

Junko: Yes.

Catherine: Great. Well, we are online but if we were going to be meeting up in person Junko where would we be? Do you have a favourite wine bar or cafe or restaurant that you love and what would be your choice of beverage from the menu.

Junko: Thanks, the weather is good in Japan now. I would like to go to the park with you and to enjoy green. And of course, I’d like to go to a restaurant. I have a favourite restaurant near to my company and let’s drink red wine there.

Catherine: What's the name of the place near your company?

Junko: Oh, the place is Tameike Sanno, near Tameike Sanno station.

Catherine: Nice. And they have good red wine?

Junko: Yes.

Catherine: Okay. Let's go there. That sounds really great. Junko, I recall that you and I first met, maybe it was at one of the ALB Japan law awards, maybe 10 years ago.

Junko: I don't remember. But I think so too. It was long ago.

Catherine: I think so too. It was a long time ago. And after that we connected, obviously several times we had in-house round table breakfast sessions at different offices. I know Suely Mori from Dow Chemical used to host us. Do you remember all of those activities we used to do before the pandemic?

Junko: I enjoyed everything and I learned much from them. And now two years, more than two years have passed and a lot has changed totally.

Catherine: It so has, and I remember though, all those round tables, you were always so passionate, you always arrived on time and contributed to the discussions. It was really great to have you. I must host another one sometime soon.

Yeah, I loved how you also told us, you told me before we recorded that you love that writer, Maha Harada. And I actually came across a review of her book.

I think she's a she yes?

Junko: Yes.

Catherine: Yes. And I read a review of a book called Ikiru Bokura. Have you read that book?

Junko: Not yet, she wrote a lot of books.

Catherine: Well, this book, I just had a little look online and Ikiru Bokura, that's the name of it. We are alive. It sounded like an interesting book and this person said that it was really straightforward.

It talks about some of the real challenges in Japanese society right now. And like a lot of Japanese books it doesn't have a very final ending. It leaves a little bit of gray so that you have your own imagination at the end of the book. So I thought that was very interesting. And I'm looking forward to reading her book.

Do you have another recommendation?

Junko: I like Canvas of Paradise. It focuses on a painting dream by Henri Rousseau. It's a story around a painting and Russo’s days and the modern day painting. And I really liked it. I liked the novel by itself and by chance, dream by Andy Russo, is my favourite painting in the modern museum in New York.

Catherine: That is really amazing. Oh, wow. So you like the painting, but also the book is about a dream.

Oh, I see. That's really interesting. Wow. Thank you so much. That's now two books of this writer that I will go away and read and I'm looking forward to it. I'll let you know about it later. We're going to go right into your career, but I just always ask my guests about what they thought about when they were a child, what they wanted to be.

Do you remember what you wanted to be when you were a child?

Junko: I would have liked to be a professional woman at that time. My mother had to be a housewife for her entire life. She never worked. And I didn't think her life was very happy because she complained a lot about her life. And when I was a child, I decided I would like to have an occupation and would like to have a profession, and would like to contribute something. I didn't consider a specific job because in those days specialised occupations for women were mainly teachers and nurses, but I didn't want to be a teacher or nurse either. I don't remember why now. And at some time when I grew up, I wanted to be a lawyer.

Catherine: Hmm. Do you know what made you think about being a lawyer? Did you see somebody who was a lawyer or met someone, or did you read about people who were lawyers? Do you remember what triggered you to be a lawyer?

Junko: I thought becoming a lawyer meant a kind of occupation which doesn't care about your sex and I could be professional. For me, a lawyer sounded like a very good occupation. I have never regretted it so far.

Catherine: Oh, when was that then that you thought about becoming a lawyer and going off to study? Is that in your teenage years? Is that before you were 20 you were thinking about this?

Junko: Actually after 20, I reentered the legal department again after I graduated the literature department. When I was younger, in those days, women were not allowed to take the same entrance examination for a company and I didn't want to work as an assistant. I wanted to have a profession, independent profession, the same kind of responsibility as a man, and lawyer sounded good, and actually, at that time I wanted to take the attorney examination and I took it. And then I tried to take the New York Bar examination and I am qualified as both now.

Catherine: That's right. So you were really at the early stages, challenging that men only can be lawyers, or that to do something professional from your early days was quite an interesting and remarkable thing, especially when you say that women were not allowed to do the same exam to enter the company as men did.

Junko: We were only allowed to work as an assistant.

Catherine: Ah, and you didn't want to do that. You wanted to be a professional, just like everybody else.

Junko: Yes.

Catherine: So after doing your literature, you did law at Chuo University. Then you went and did your LLM. And that seems to be both Waseda and the University of Illinois. So tell me about the LLM, and what you needed to do for that in Japan.

And was the Waseda study connected to the Illinois University study?

Junko: I took the LLM from the University of Illinois Urbana Champaign at first.

And I studied intellectual property and also a more general role. I had more interest in the general company legal field than the intellectual property field at that time.

And after that, I worked for an American law firm as a trainee for a year and returned to Japan. And I joined the international law firm, as a trademark attorney, and moved to the legal department for the company. And during that time I had an academic interest in learning and also I had a little bit of difficulty in my professional life in that company. Still and again, I saw I faced a glass ceiling there.

I was promoted to a kind of a higher position, but not to legal department head, and at that time, a couple of people, or more than a couple of people, advised me that you must be satisfied with that level because for a woman it was really great, they said to me.

Also, we had a very important negotiation with the parent company.

And at that time I thought I must take care of the negotiation mainly. But the legal department head at that time told me he'd like a younger guy to negotiate for the company, and he encouraged me to support him because my junior would become the legal department head in the future.

So this experience is very important and necessary for him.

Catherine: Oh, so your younger member of the team, the younger guy, was suggested to be the one who negotiated not you, because that younger guy was going to be destined to be the legal head. And that's what the manager told you.

Junko: Yes.

Catherine: How did you feel?

Junko: Yeah, I was really disappointed and it felt painful.

Catherine: Yeah.

Junko: And when a recruiter approached me to ask if I have an interest in joining the current company, I decided I should move here to the current company.

Catherine: Wow. It's really amazing that that's actually not that long ago that happened, right? You moved to your new company in 2004. So 2004 is only 18 years ago, right? It's not that long ago. But to have somebody quite clearly tell you that, you know, you've done well enough, this is fine. You should be satisfied with this level.

“Yoshi yoshi”. That's enough. That's enough. You're right. Stay where you are. That's absolutely incredible.

Junko: Yeah, correct. I think maybe it still happens these days somewhere.

Catherine: So what's your message then to people, women who hear that message from someone in their surrounding, somebody in the company tells them that, what, how would you help them to deal with that kind of comment? What would you say?

Junko: Believe in yourself and believe in your future. You face difficulty now and it sometimes happens, unfortunately. However, Japanese society is changing a lot. Like my mother never worked, but I work very professionally now. It's only one generation. And also you can improve yourself. Your future must be much better. Believe in yourself, believe in your future, just make an effort, whatever you can now.

Catherine: Did you talk to anyone at that time to help you? So would you suggest people talk with other people, like an older or more experienced lawyer and get another opinion? What did you do yourself to get through that difficulty at that time?

Junko: Since I suffered a similar difficulty repeatedly, it was the biggest one and it was the reason I decided to move to the current company. I don't remember the details, but I consulted with friends, female friends sometimes. And female friends were saying the same idea. They helped me to keep myself.

But sometimes even female friends, they may have a different idea, like society’s idea, that we must accept something. I try not to consult about this kind of thing with such a person.

Catherine: I mean, everyone has a different opinion and sometimes your female friends can be a little more risk averse than you, or you just don't know what they're thinking about in their own experience. So it's just information, isn't it? And you can decide to take that information and do something with it or not.

But did you have anyone else around that time, like any other mentor or coach, or do you think that's a good thing to have, a good person to have in your life as somebody who can mentor you or be a coach for you during these kinds of difficult times?

Junko: Actually I have American female friends and they are mentors to me. And when I consulted on such things, they encouraged me to go over and to take a new road.

When I went to the University of Illinois to study law and after two weeks working as a trainee, I met somebody and I found a couple of friends from those days. They are women, and they are lawyers, and they encouraged me all that time. Now I recognize that my American friends who share American culture, actually helped me a lot.

I remember when I studied at the University of Illinois, I was so surprised that half of the classroom were women.

And when I spoke with friends, I thought I was living like their grandmothers’ generation in the United States, in Japan. Like their grandmothers’ days, I felt that way.

And I totally appreciate my American friends who encouraged me to work continuously and supported my direction.

Catherine: Oh, that's amazing. So those are the friends that you met when you were at McDermott Will and Emery?

Junko: Yes, and the University of Illinois.

Catherine: And the University of Illinois. Goodness. Wow. And so are you still in touch with them now?

Junko: Yes. Sometimes by email, sometimes by Facebook now we are meeting, or some are old ladies and we are now in retirement age, and some of them are hoping to visit Japan for sightseeing because they think that Japan is a good place for sightseeing. So I'm happy and waiting for them to visit Japan.

And I would like to assist with their travel at that time.

Catherine: That's so good. It will be really nice for them to come here once the doors open at Narita and people can come back as tourists. How amazing. I'm just thinking of how difficult it must have been for you at those stages to have people say those things. And I'm just thinking how you got through the difficulty with your friends and the US side of things, US people that helped you. Is it different then, the way that law is taught in America, the way that lawyers work in America compared to Japan? What are the big differences that you found?

Junko: For me, women’s working station was amazing at first. And after I joined the current company, I recognised a couple of differences because first of all, being a woman doesn't mean anything. For Avaya I'm proud that our general counsel has been women continuously. And when I joined Avaya, a female lawyer had a male secretary. I was so surprised. And also being a team member cared about family, and private things, the same as work.

In Japan, as you know, traditionally working means contributing 100 percent of your life and paying attention to family things more than working requirements is not good, particularly for traditional male-oriented working station. However, in the American company, lawyers and team members think family and personal things are important at the same level. It was very surprising to me.

Catherine: So when you are talking about the male secretary, was that in the US for the US side of the company?

Junko: Yes, of course.

Catherine: Oh, that must've been quite a surprise.

Junko: Yeah, it was quite surprising.

Catherine: And so how did that change, that kind of thing, did that help change things in Japan for you? The way that you do your work or the way that you saw, how you are engaged in your work? Did that influence you?

Junko: First of all, I'm so happy working for such a company. I mean, male secretary for a female lawyer, it’s equal opportunity. And I'm proud of working for this company and the legal department. Also, I recognize that being a man doesn't mean anything here.

I'm just required to be a good legal team member, a good in-house counsel, and it’s a really good feeling, taking responsibility, making an effort. It's a really good feeling.

Catherine: You love your job.

Junko: Yes. Yes. I really like my current job and also I really like to be part of my company’s international legal team.

Catherine: It sounds like you've got a great team. What do you really enjoy about your work?

Junko: Compared to a Japanese company, my work is a little bit different. Our parent company decides the template for contracts, general privacy policy, everything. However, it has different laws, not too much, but a little bit different for legal requirements. Also the language is different, the culture is different. So my role is to support the business operation in compliance with Avaya law and fit Avaya policy and Avaya template. At the same time, I have to amend something in compliance with Japanese business requirements if necessary.

And such combination work, I really like it. On one side, I'm kind of a gatekeeper for Avaya global compliance and legal principles, but also I have to pay attention to the Japanese role, Japanese culture, Japanese language sometimes. So it’s kind of a good combination for me. Like I feel I'm living in a culture between Western culture and Japanese culture.

I really like Western culture, American culture. The American culture of equal opportunity, good opportunities for women, helps me a lot. My American friends are sharing with me American culture has helped me a lot, but at the same time I'm not American, I'm Japanese. I’m educated in the normal Japanese education system. My English is not native and my culture is based on Japanese culture.

Even though some parts of male-oriented culture I don't like totally, I am Japanese and I like Japanese culture in some parts. I would like to live as Japanese, with an understanding and acceptance of American culture’s good points.

Catherine: Mm. Yes.

Junko: Yeah, I like to represent that idea.

Catherine: Mm.

Junko: I hope I can convey my thoughts to you well. It’s complicated for me, my feelings.

Catherine: No, I understand. It's like, I love how you call it combination work because it's combination work, combination culture, right? That's what you're dealing with. You're dealing with two cultures, two kinds of different work. You're learning the American side of things, the way that they have presented the policies or the law.

But you're also bringing that into Japan to make it practical to use in Japan. And then you're learning the American side of things and also teaching them the Japanese way of doing things as well. So you've got both cultures working every single day.

And so you have such a broad reach of work, and I know you're not only the senior corporate counsel, you're also a member of the board.

So how is your work divided up? Are you spending half and half, or is it some part is on compliance more at certain times of year? How are you dividing up your work Junko?

Junko: Oh, I cannot divide up my work. If something comes up I take care of it, something comes, I support it. And if two things come up, I just prioritise which thing I should do first. My life is like that. I cannot divide, in advance, my time.

Catherine: Because you handle everything yourself, don't you? How do you do it yourself?

Junko: When I joined my company, I had a paralegal.

Catherine: Ah.

Junko: And I could ask them to do administrative work, easy legal contracts etcetera.

Catherine: Yes.

Junko: But at some time Avaya decided to close the paralegal position not only for Japan, but also other countries. Since then I manage everything by myself. And like now, due to the development of IT, our contractor database is for worldwide contracts. I am required to input the necessary information in a worldwide database. And also we have to manage and keep information for each subsidiary.

I have to input the data by myself and it's necessary. I'm not too good at it, but it’s necessary. So I learned a lot. Also, these days I send DocuSign envelopes by myself, and actually do a lot of administrative work too.

Catherine: How do you handle it? How do you organise your day to do that? Do you just, is your day a long working day, or you’re just so used to it now, doing it yourself, that it's quite automatic?

Junko: Again, I'm not too good at planning in advance, so I just support something I have to support, in order, and sometimes it's very busy. If I have to support like four or five things at a time, I have to prioritise the older work based on necessity and urgency.

Catherine: And when you choose one urgent matter, one necessary matter before the other necessary matter or urgent matter, how do you inform the one that you are keeping as the second thing to do? How do you communicate that to those people?

Junko: I am in-house and I know the employees or legal team members. I just explain I have to do something currently, urgently, so I will be able to support this by that time. Please wait a little bit, or please give me some time. Like that.

Catherine: So you give them a timeline and tell them that you've got the other thing to do. Sometimes when we get really busy, we just do the busy thing and we don't tell the other side and they're waiting for you. So it's really important to communicate that, isn't it?

Junko: I totally agree. It's very important. We have to communicate with the business team well.

Catherine: Exactly. And do you also work with outside counsel to help you with some of your work? And if you do, how do you deal with the outside counsel?

Junko: To be quite honest, we don't ask outside counsel to support us, except only for very important matters, like a lawsuit, or antitrust case, and for daily work I provide everything. For outside counsel, like our company, we direct outside counsel to understand how operations proceed.

Under a multinational company, we have to comply with the instruction or policy decided by the parent company, we have to respond to the Japanese opinion, and we have to respond in English to those outside the Japan legal team. So I expect the outside counsel to understand multinational company culture. And both in English and Japanese.

Catherine: I see. And so you were also continuing your study and learning. Is that really important for an in-house legal counsel to keep doing that continual learning, to keep up with the trends in the industry and new law developments?

Junko: I think studying law at graduate school helps my work for better support since law improves day by day. And particularly since I'm only one person, for my legal department improving my professional ability is very important. Also, this academic study is my interest. I think I like studying.

Yeah, my dream is after retirement, I would like to enter graduate school officially and try to complete a dissertation.

Catherine: What is the dissertation? Is that a Ph.D.?

Junko: Yes. Ph.D.

Catherine: Ooh. And that would be on what topic?

Junko: I have an interest in the license agreement when the licensor or licensee becomes bankrupt.

Catherine: Ooh.

Junko: This is kind of an area between bankruptcy role and intellectual property law.

Catherine: Yes, I was just going to say, because those are your two passions

Junko: Yes.

Catherine: And you've found a way to combine the two passions.

Junko: Yes.

Catherine: Interesting.

Junko: And I hope I will be able to complete the Ph.D. paper some day.

Catherine: Ooh, wow. That is amazing. I love that you've got your future dream happening. And so for someone who would love to be doing your job, who is listening today Junko, what kind of advice would you give them to get to the kind of job that you are doing? What should they do?

Junko: If somebody would like to be in-house counsel for a multinational company, my advice will be; first, at least for my company, a lawyer's qualification is required. Whatever the country is. In my case, I'm not a lawyer codified in Japan, but I'm a lawyer admitted in the state of New York. It's fine, any country is fine, just a lawyer’s qualification may be required.

Second, increasing your ability is required. For a multinational company the legal department is one operation. My boss is a Singaporean lawyer located in Singapore and his boss is an American lawyer located in America. English communication is required and I have to convey and report things of my work in Japan to legal team members.

Do you recognise my English is not excellent? It's kind of at an okay level. But I would say English is necessary, but not necessary like interpreter English or very advanced level English. Keeping legal ability and conveying in English is the minimum and may satisfy generally.

Third, sharing American culture or international culture.

Japanese culture is different from American culture. As long as I work for a multinational company, and the other headquarters is located in the United States, I must respect and understand American culture. As I said, my policy is that I'm not American, I'm Japanese. So I try to combine good aspects from my side, over two cultures, and work for the purpose. Do you think it helped?

Catherine: I do. I think that's really great. So you've got qualifications in law, so you don't necessarily have to be a Japanese bengoshi in Japan. You can get another foreign qualification as well to work in Japan. Yes? That's number one.

Junko: Yes, of course it depends on that company's policy. I don't know. Maybe some companies require a qualification in Japan.

Catherine: And I think what you say about English ability. I think that's really marvellous because it doesn't have to be interpreter level. I loved how you said that. It's about, you know, having a minimum that you can communicate your thoughts to the other side, right? Whether it be your clients or to other people in the business. And the third one, having that understanding of different cultures.

It's so true. Because especially if you've got a headquarters in the US and in Japan, you are the bridge between those two cultures. I'm sure when there are people in the Japanese business who don't quite understand the culture, you're able to explain it, and the same, vice versa. So those are really great tips.

Thank you so much.

Tell me then Junko about your daily routine. I know you like running. And I know that you like reading and movies. How do you get yourself organised in the day? So from morning through to the evening, what sorts of things are you doing to keep yourself organised? Although you told me you're not a planner, I guess you are still organising your day.

How do you do that?

Junko: As a matter of fact, I think I have to organise my life better. Generally, I wake up and check my email and check what is urgent or if there’s an urgent case. And I do something like morning housekeeping.

I have breakfast and work in the morning, and eat lunch and do afternoon work. And at night I enjoy reading novels or watch a movie sometimes just to relax. And it's not good, but we are a multinational company, so sometimes I have to attend a night call, or some urgent email which I receive at night and am supposed to respond.

Catherine: So you have the night evening calls.

Junko: Yeah.

Catherine: Yeah. So you'll do a little bit of reading for yourself, but you may need to get back on a phone call with the USA.

Junko: Yes. USA and Europe.

Catherine: And Europe too. I see.

Junko: Yeah, for global, I mean, including US and Europe, in Japan it needs to be a very late night, 11:00 PM.

Catherine: Ah, yes, but if you are working late in the evening, do you have a more relaxed schedule the next day or are you back on to Japan time?

Junko: I think I have to be relaxed, but as a matter of fact, I return to Japan time generally.

Catherine: Right. I see. Wow. Okay.

Junko: Sometimes I try to take off a little bit longer.

Catherine: Mm. Hm.

Junko: It’s not a good part of supporting a Japan operation and a global culture and a global timeline

Catherine: Yeah. Has it been harder to work during the pandemic or have you found it actually easier to get on with people because you have been already focusing on international culture and working together, so the pandemic didn't have so much impact? How was it for you?

Junko: For me, the pandemic doesn't have an impact so much. Of course, going to the office, seeing people to discuss directly, gives us lots of benefits. But working remotely, I recognise that we can work appropriately and that we don't have to go on a very crowded commuter train in Tokyo, with a heavy PC.

Catherine: Mm.

Junko: I recognise I don't have to go to the office for work. It has merit for me.

Catherine: It's good that you can do that.

Great. I wanted to ask you, is there anything that you do to keep you motivated? So maybe it is your walking, your running, or the activities that you talked about already. Is there anything else that keeps you going?

Junko: One thing definitely is seeing and speaking with female friends, which unfortunately, under the COVID-19 situation it's difficult for us to have the time, but once COVID-19 is over I'd like to see my friends in person again.

And for academic study, my dream is to complete the PhD paper. And after that, I'd like to work as a volunteer to support a Master's degree paper, or PhD paper, or with students who come from outside of Japan to study in Japan. I'd like to help somebody, I’d like to contribute to somebody. I think that feeling is my motivation too, not only for working, I’d like to help other business people.

And also, if I can, I'd like to help foreign students studying in Japan for graduate level high level education.

Catherine: Wow. That's really great. Cause that's looking to the future, and helping people in that way. Have you got any tips or advice for some of the young lawyers who are just starting their careers?

Junko: Again, I’d like to convey, believe in yourself, believe in the future. Even if you face difficulties sometimes, you will be better in the future.

Catherine: That's really good advice. And Junko, is there anything that you've done so far in your life that if you had the chance to do it again, you would do it differently?

Junko: Oh, it's a quite interesting and difficult question. Of course, I have a couple of things which I understand that I could have chosen the other way. but I can not to do that. So I try not to consider that possibility at all. Just to see only the future.

Catherine: Yes, you are very wise. I think that's an interesting question because you can get some interesting answers. So thank you for answering that. Is there anything else then that we haven't covered today that you would like to talk about or anything that we did talk about Junko, that you would like to re-emphasize?

Junko: Uh, I think I’m fine.

Catherine: You're good?

Junko: It's a great opportunity. Thank you for having me Catherine.

Catherine: You’re welcome.

We haven't quite finished because I have the final six questions. I usually ask a final super six questions that I ask each guest to wind up the interview. And so the first one is just thinking about if I was to give you a million yen in Japanese cash, I'm not going to, but if I was doing that, where would you spend that at a favourite shop or maybe a destination or something like that?

What would you do with a million yen?

Junko: At this moment I would like to donate it to the Ukraine Embassy.

Catherine: Great. Yes, Ukraine. Embassy. Yeah. That's very kind.

What is your favourite saying, kotowaza?

Junko: Never give up.

Catherine: Ah, love it. Is that also in Japanese? Is it “akiramenai de”?

Junko: Yeah, that has the same meaning, But I don't know if we have a similar saying.

Catherine: But never give up.

Junko: Never give up. As a saying “akeramenai”, is the meaning.

Catherine: Fantastic. Is there someone famous or some celebrity or talent that you would love to meet or have already met?

Junko: It’s maybe strange. I'd like to see Professor Vern Countryman. He is very famous for the bankruptcy field in the United States, and his definition of executory contracts changed legal analysis, legal history, and fits in right with my field very deeply. So if I can, I’d like to see him and I'd like to ask him questions.

Catherine: You know what you should do is just write to him and say, can we have a Zoom call? I'm sure he will say yes. I think sometimes if you talk about never give up, if you go for something, there's no reason why, the worst he can do is say no, but what if he says yes, then you can meet him at least online.

Junko: Thank you very much Catherine. It’s very good advice and I like the positive idea.

Catherine: I would reach out to him and tell him you've been studying this. You're continuing to do the study, in the future you want to do this PhD, and you would really love to speak with him. He would do it. I'm sure.

Junko: I know his article, but I don't don't know if he's still alive. But I will try.

Catherine: Oh, yes, please try. And then the bonus question is what is one thing that you are really grateful for right now? One thing that you are so happy that you have in your life right now?

Junko: It's very difficult to choose one. I’d just like to say I'm healthy, I’m alive, and I have something I’d like to do. Does that answer the question?

Catherine: Oh, most definitely being healthy, being alive and having something that you want to be able to do. Yes. Perfect. Oh, Junko, it's been so great. Thank you so much for coming on lawyer on air. It's been such a pleasure to speak with you. You've really shared such inspirational stories, especially from those early days where you challenged what people told you, and expected you to be or do.

And you've really just burst through the glass ceiling and come through, and are progressing your life and your career goals. It's really amazing.

Junko: Thank you very much for having me, Catherine. You are a very great host. Thank you very much for your summarising.

Catherine: No, not at all.

Junko: It’s my pleasure.

Catherine: You did a fabulous job. Thank you so much for sharing your wonderful stories and insights and the advice for other lawyers and people who would love to be doing your work. And so if people want to connect with you, can they do that through LinkedIn? Or how can they do that?

Junko: I have a LinkedIn, but I'm not good at using it. Is it okay to connect through your email address?

Catherine: Yes, no problem at all. So anyone who would like to contact Junko and talk a little bit more, they can contact me and we'll put that into the show notes. So that's totally fine. I'm happy with that.

And so for anybody who is listening, my listeners, please do subscribe to Lawyer on Air, do like this episode, and if you feel inclined, please drop a short review because that always helps for this podcast to be heard by more people. You can also go onto my webpage and leave me a voicemail. I love hearing people's voices tell me about the guest and what they enjoyed hearing. Thanks so much everybody for listening and that's all for now.

Cheers, kampai and bye for now.

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