Full transcript follows.

What would it be like to work in the Tokyo office of a major law firm such as Morrison & Foerster (MoFo)? Well in this episode we bring you the Managing Partner of the Tokyo office, Ken Siegel, sharing his insights and experience with over 25 years of working in Japan at the top of M&A law. It is my great pleasure to give you this rare opportunity to hear from Ken about the latest on hiring, retaining talent and the future of law in Tokyo.

If you enjoyed this episode and it inspired you in some way, we’d love to hear about it and know your biggest takeaway. Head over to Apple Podcasts to leave a review and we’d love it if you would leave us a message here!

In this episode you’ll hear:

• Ken’s favourite places for a drink or a meal in Tokyo

• Do you really need to speak Japanese to be successful in Tokyo?

• What Ken looks for when he is hiring attorneys and how graduates can stand out from the pack

• Ken’s thoughts on the future of law particularly in Tokyo

• Ken’s top advice for up and coming lawyers and law students

About Ken

Ken Siegel is the Managing Partner of Morrison & Foerster’s Tokyo office and the head of the office’s 50 attorney M&A team. Ken’s practice focuses on the representation of high-technology companies in acquisitions, joint ventures and strategic alliances.

Ken has been consistently ranked as one of the leading U.S. attorneys in Japan. Among other things, he is the only attorney rated as a “Star Individual” for M&A in Japan (the level above Band 1) by Chambers Global, having been ranked at this level for twelve consecutive years (2011 – 2022 editions), and having been ranked in Band 1 for the prior decade. According to Chambers Asia Pacific, Ken is “commercial and pragmatic, an incredible M&A attorney” who “deserves tremendous credit for his M&A practice” and has “outstanding acumen, experience and leadership.”

Ken has been resident in Japan since 1994, and managing partner of the Tokyo office since 1997.

Ken received his B.A. degree, magna cum laude, from Amherst College in 1981. He studied Japanese language at Stanford University’s Inter-University Center for Japanese Language in Tokyo and at the Johns Hopkins University’s School of Advanced International Studies (SAIS), receiving a graduate degree in International Affairs in 1983. He received his J.D. degree in 1986 from the University of Chicago Law School.

Connect with Ken

Please connect with Catherine to be introduced

Links

Mixology Heritage: https://www.jrtk.jp/hibiya-okuroji/shop/detail_00013/ 

Kinobi: https://kyotodistillery.jp/ 

Connect with Catherine 

Linked In https://www.linkedin.com/in/oconnellcatherine/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lawyeronair

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/catherine.oconnell.148

Twitter: https://twitter.com/oconnelllawyer

Transcript

Catherine: Hi, everyone. Welcome to this special guest episode of Lawyer on Air. I'm the host of the show, Catherine O'Connell. We've had a fabulous woman lawyer guest lineup in Season One, Two and Three. And the podcast has really created a wonderful community on LinkedIn in particular, and many of my biggest followers and people who engage with the podcast episodes are men, 48% of listeners to this podcast are men.

So, this is not a podcast just for women. It's not a podcast just for women lawyers. It's clear to me, it is also very much a draw card for male listeners. So that got me thinking about adding some more diversity, equity and inclusion and to invite a male special guest onto the show. It's important to me that we also hear from male champions in the community. So why not ask the managing partner of a big law firm in Tokyo, a firm that has been part of the careers and friendships of several of our women lawyer guests so far.

So listeners, today I am joined by Ken Siegel, who is the managing partner of the Tokyo office of Morrison and Foerster. Ken also leads MoFo's M&A team with 50 lawyers. MoFo's practice focuses on the representation of high technology companies in acquisitions, joint ventures, and strategic alliances. Ken has spent his entire career with MoFo and has practiced in Japan for over 25 years, serving as MoFo's Tokyo Managing Partner for the last 20 years. 

Ken is a multiple award-winning lawyer. He consistently ranks one of the leading US lawyers in Japan, and he's the only lawyer to be ranked as a star individual for M&A in Japan, by Chambers Global for 12 consecutive years. Ken is a bit of a modest celebrity. He has appeared on CNBC and PBS’s nightly business report on their coverage of Japanese legal developments.

And he's also been on the cover of the American Lawyer in its survey of global law firms. He's most often the go-to lawyer for comment on the legal scene in Japan. Ken got his BA from Amherst College in 1981 and his JD from the University of Chicago Law School in 1986. He is admitted to the California Bar and is a registered foreign attorney in Japan.

Let's get into it. I'm very pleased to bring you Ken Siegel as my special guest today. Ken, welcome to the show.

Ken: Thank you, Catherine. Thanks for that introduction. Makes me feel older than I usually feel, but I'm happy to get it. 

Catherine: Oh, you're looking young. I can see you on the camera there.

Ken, we are remotely doing this today, but I would like to ask you the same question I ask all my women lawyer guests. And that is if we were meeting up in person, where would we be? Do you have a really lovely favorite wine bar or restaurant or cafe that you go to?

And what's your choice of beverage off the menu?

Ken: Well, I love Mixology Heritage, which is a somewhat new bar in Ginza. It specializes in old liquors, like, you know, liquors from the 1970s or sixties. They can still buy bottles of old rum and stuff. They make super interesting drinks. So I enjoy it a lot. It's had some hard times. It opened just before the pandemic so it's had some struggles, but seems to be doing okay. And I love Florilège which is a great restaurant in Gaien Mae and it's brother in Den and Den Kushi, which is just a great group of restaurants. I was going to go there tonight before a client jumped my schedule. So I'm feeling sad about that, but happy that I get to that place from time to time. Those are all good places that I would recommend to anybody who wants a drink.

And I would get a gin tonic probably, or a French 75, which is a kind of a gin based stronger drink for a bad day. 

Catherine: Wow, what a connoisseur. I know that there are so many wonderful botanic gins around right now. Do you have something out of that gin menu that you normally would choose for the gin and tonic?

Ken: Oh, well, I would certainly recommend Kinobi to anybody. That's a Kyoto based gin manufacturer. And if people are in Kyoto, Kinobi has a location called Kinobi house, which is over near the Hotel Okura in Kyoto. They have a renovated machiya. They have house blends. It's great.

It's fabulous. They have an old well that they reconditioned and they have artisinal water coming out of there I guess. But it's just a nice, it's just a great spot. And I'd highly recommend that as well as a second bar. I've been doing a lot of bar exploration during the pandemic. 

Catherine: So Kinobi is run by some British people. Isn't it?

Ken: It's run by British people and had gotten investment by a major British spirits house, I think a couple of years ago. So it's a growing and very successful, small batch gin company. Yeah. 

Catherine: Wow. Yeah, you reminded me, during the British Chamber of Commerce British business awards, I won a visit to Kinobi for me and nine other people, 10 people to go and visit and do some drinking. So maybe I have to actually action that. Haven't been able to go, as you say, due to this a nasty pandemic, but it sounds like you've been able to help the economy during these wonderful busy times for us, but also for the very dark times for the restaurant and food trade. So well done there. Thank you so much. we'll put those in the show notes as well. 

But Ken, you've been in Tokyo a very long time. You've been in this market. And so I'd really love to know why you were drawn to the Tokyo market and what actually keeps you here?

Ken: Well, you know I grew up in the Midwest. I liked a lot about the Midwest, but I did not like the pace of life, the insular quality of life, and the somewhat isolated nature where I grew up in Columbus, Ohio. 

I came to Tokyo, I love the culture here. I love the place.

And I found this as a place I could do very high-end sophisticated work, and still be living outside the States, which I enjoy, I find very stimulating. There's very few places where you can do top end legal work that are outside the United States. Obviously London is one, Hong Kong has been one, Singapore is one, and Japan is probably right there with London, of the international capitals where you can do this kind of sophisticated work and have a real career, start to finish, representing great companies, doing fabulously interesting things, and addressing legal challenges at the top end of the market.

And I was attracted to that. 

Catherine: Yeah, and I mean, you can do your work in English. You don't always have to have Japanese language skills. I'm sure you do, because you're obviously ordering drinks at bars as well, but is that really important? The language side of things?

Ken: Some of our most important and successful lawyers over the years speak absolutely no Japanese. And one of the great things about Japanese clients is they don't really come to a global law firm for language help. You know, they appreciate it, but their perspective is we need the best lawyers.

We need lawyers who understand the global markets and the markets in which they're advising and the legal frameworks in which they're advising. If we can work with them in Japanese so much the better, if you do speak Japanese so much the better in terms of your addressable market, in terms of clients here and your ability to lock people in.

But it's absolutely not a requirement. It's just helpful to have, in terms of your engagement with the clients here. 

Catherine: Excellent. That's really absolutely important to know that it's not really required at your high level of operations there. And I totally get that. So in what ways then Ken, has this market in Tokyo developed or matured or changed over the years?

Ken: The market is always evolving in Tokyo. I mean, that's one of the great things about the city and the country. I think there are more sophisticated clients out there, who are capable of discerning the value of great services. Before the pandemic, there was increasing appreciation of being able to get those services locally, and the benefit of working directly with your clients. 

One of the durable aspects of the market is that Japanese clients, more than any other group of clients I've seen, really prefer to do their work in person. Before the pandemic, you know, we would have clients 24/7 in the office, and probably had more use of our conference rooms here in Tokyo with a hundred lawyers than we had in San Francisco with 350 lawyers. 

So, we'll have to see at the other end of the pandemic, how things like the Japanese client preference to work things through in person, come into the office, work with their lawyers locally, how those things will have persevered or not persevered. But historically at least until this most recent group of events, that's clearly been a differentiator for the clients here and the practice 

Catherine: Wow. That's really interesting, those stats on the number of lawyers and the usage of the footprint there in the office. It's really sounding to me like Japan, Tokyo is a really important market for you. Not only for in Japan, but also the firm in general. Is that a good observation?

Ken: Absolutely. You know, we love the Japanese market, because not only has it allowed us to develop a great local practice here, but it's allowed us to develop relationships that have actually scaled in important ways for the firm. We've represented Fujitsu for years and probably in all of our offices, SoftBank is a very large client, and works in all of our offices. So we both love the clients here and love the work we can do for them locally. And then love the fact that because of those strong relationships we develop, they sponsor us and validate us and help us grow globally with the local client base. 

Catherine: Yeah, that may be really interesting information that people often think that with an international firm, the relationships start way back at the central office, but actually you're saying so many key relationships have started from Tokyo. And that's why it is a very key market. Thank you for that. And in this key market, you obviously need to be hiring in great lawyers.

And so I would really like to ask you a little bit there, Ken, about hiring here and the recruitment process. As a managing partner, what do you look for when you're hiring attorneys? Whether they be male or female.

Ken: Well, I would say this, first of all, I think we're the only firm in Tokyo, the only global firm, that really runs a fully integrated hiring program. So we go onto the campuses in the US. We have a first year summer associate program. Second year summer associate program. We typically again, holding aside the last two years when we have not been able to get visas for people or move people around, we've typically had between five and 10 summer associates in the office in recent years.

Currently we put them in San Francisco or New York or Palo Alto or another global office, Shanghai. And they're in a holding pattern pending the reopening of the market here, but we have a summer associate program. We love to recruit from the campuses. And of course we recruit laterally.

But the lateral market here is not big enough to really support our needs in terms of growth and what we want to do. So we go to the campuses to get the people that we're looking for. We look for great, highly accomplished, highly motivated, young people who are super smart, and then in terms of what we look for in the terms of this office, we look for accomplishment, achievement in whatever portion of their historical pursuits they've been most motivated to focus on. 

We look for some kind of local connection hopefully, or other reason why people would be comfortable trying out a city outside the States and staying there for extended periods of time. If it's not a local connection, it could be a connection with another non US jurisdiction where we can see durable interest in practicing in a new environment for an extended period.

And we look for commitment to a career, hopefully with our firm. So those are the kinds of things we look for, and we of course don't distinguish between people. We want great lawyers of all diverse interests, and so we look for the same recipe of client support, commitment from whoever we're talking to. 

Catherine: Right. And so greatly accomplished, greatly motivated, is a standout from what you've said. If you're bringing in people from US campuses and they're first and second year associates, how are they showing that accomplishment and their motivation at that early, early stage? Are you seeing it from what they did at university?

Or what are you seeing, showing or revealing those accomplishments and motivational aspects of that particular person?

Ken: We look for high levels of academic achievement. We recruit pretty broadly from different educational institutions. We don't have a top five that we limit our recruiting from, or those kinds of things. We'll recruit from, and frankly find very successful lawyers from, a very diverse group of institutions.

And we just look for them to have done very well there, to have a good reason to want to come join our firm and join the efforts that we're making to support our clients. 

Catherine: Right. So aside from those academics, which obviously have to be bang on, what else stands out on a CV, especially perhaps for the lateral hires if they do come up? Maybe secondment experience, or working in house. What kinds of things stand out for you there?

Ken: Well, I do like to see some language capability. That's always a plus. If they speak Japanese and speak it to a business level, that's certainly a plus. I don't particularly see secondments as adding a lot to a resume. I think it's fine if it's on there or fine if it's not. I do think that one of the distinguishing features of our office is that it's an interesting group of lawyers.

I mean, I really feel that we have a traditional partnership, a traditional office in Tokyo in terms of collegiality, in terms of close work together. and I like to see people who have interests that go beyond the law. That's just my personal interest in terms of talking with people.

Everyone's got their own predilections, but I like to see lots of other stuff that people have done. I value the diversity and personal style of our office, and love to see people who want to have a little different practice in different kind of collegial relationship in their experience.

If that makes sense. 

Catherine: It does. Right. It means that you've got these people who have got some interests outside of the law, or interests within the law. Perhaps you're encouraging intrepreneurship there as well.

Ken: Absolutely. You know, and I just find American law firms to be somewhat boring actually, in terms of daily engagement with them. And I just think in past times, I mean, one of the great benefits of working in a law firm is having the privilege of working with a lot of very smart, very accomplished, interesting people, who are effectively like in a consulting firm or maybe an investment banking firm to a different degree are offering a service based on their intelligence and orientation in terms of things that they’ve experienced, what they've done and based on the law, which I think is very intellectually driving. So I think it's a privilege and I love to look for people who contribute to that personally. 

Catherine: Wow. That's really amazing. Are there any peculiarities about specifically hiring into the Japan market compared to outside of Japan? I mean, aside from the language that you've been speaking about, is there anything else there that comes up?

Ken: No, we just get a much more diverse group of people who are interested in a little bit of the road less traveled and have different reasons for being in Japan. So I think we're privileged to get a broader group of applications and we have a more diverse office and I think that's all for the best. It’s great.

Catherine: Love it. So the road less traveled and diversity does actually bring me to my next point I wanted to talk about, because as I mentioned at the top of the show, we talked about DEI as being vital to the podcast, the guests and the listeners. And you've touched upon the word diversity a lot already.

What kinds of DEI initiatives do you have there at MoFo? I have actually heard recently of the mental health steering committee you've got there. I think that's quite unique in the legal sector. I heard about it on the recent international women's day webinar that MoFo held, and Yuka Teraguchi at your firm was leading the facilitation of that as well as several of your other members.

You have that committee, and I know you've got a women's strategy committee as well. So just tell us a little bit more about those Ken, those DEI initiatives. Why are they so important there for you?

Ken: Well, to be perfectly honest, I'm more engaged on the women's initiative than the mental health initiative. I think the women's initiative is incredibly important, extremely positive, and a place where we both are different. And our difference is important to the broader community and we've been very successful in the region in recruiting and promoting women lawyers. We've been a little less successful to be perfectly honest, in Japan.

But we have great women partners here. And I think I personally believe that, for whatever reason, the legal portion of the business world has always been a leader in women's empowerment in Japan, and needs to continue to be that. If you go back to when I first came to Japan, 25 years ago, women in business were not highly placed.

And where women were successful were in the private law firms, in Nagashima Ono, in Nishimura, in Mori Hamada, because the law firms were a true, or to a greater extent a meritocracy than the larger business community. And clients were always comfortable taking the best advice from women, men, wherever, whatever source it came from.

And I think without a great deal of judgment or a great deal of judgmentalness in their engagement, regardless of how the companies were constituted internally. Today, that's different. I think the legal departments of the great Japanese companies are now in many cases run by women; Sony, Fujitsu, Toshiba, all have women Houmu Bucho, legal leads, just as an example. 

And I think the law departments have been a place of differential success for women inside the companies. I think there's still a glass ceiling at the board level, for whatever reason. I don't see the great Japanese women legal department leads getting onto their boards, but I think that's partially because the law departments have always been underrepresented on the boards of their Japanese companies for whatever reason. 

So, in any event, I think that the legal portion of the business community is a fertile place for improvement on women's issues, that there is improvement, and that there are opportunities to develop strong networks between our lawyers and the lawyers in these companies that are helping to drive them forward.

And I think we need to be a leader in doing that, to help migrate the larger business community in the right direction. And it's the right thing to do. And it's good for us because we have great women inside the firms. So I'm a big supporter and involved in the women's initiatives and I hope they continue to flourish as they have been.

Catherine: I think what was quite interesting is that Yuka Teraguchi was talking about this in that recent webinar that you hosted. And there was this link that came out between wellness and diversity and inclusion. So it could well be something that moves forward as that committee gets a little bit stronger and brings out some other initiatives underneath it.

So I did really think that was an amazing webinar. I hadn't seen a law firm do something quite as inspirational as that, I mean, International Women's Day was all about the theme of “Break the Bias”. Does it have a special meaning to you, Ken, while we're on the subject?

Ken: Well, I just think it's something you have to be very focused on in Japan. I think the bias are a little, what would you say, less overt, but more deeply rooted. And I just think you have to continue to work on the issues of bias and focusing on opportunity in your operations.

I should say I come to mental health support believing that the best mental health support is developing the right networks of sponsorship and support amongst the attorneys. I think that's where people need to be in an environment where they are respected and have good connectivity with the people they work with. And if they are, they'll be fine because there'll be open communication about what they need and what they don't need, and when they're working too hard or have stress they can’t handle. 

And developing those internal networks of support between the more senior partners and more junior ones. And having in-person teams is the best way to manage a firm to a high level of professional satisfaction.

And then that gets you across the line going forward. So again, I focus mostly on the promotion and empowerment side of our partnership, more than the bottoms up mental health, but there is a strong role for the mental health support that the firm more broadly I think, puts in place. 

Catherine: I think I'm hearing you very clearly there that it's all encompassing. Perhaps the mental health steering committee helps to strengthen that. 

I will talk to Yuka a little bit more about that later on, but that's really interesting. Thank you so much. And I thought it was really a good segue to talking about the future of law, and what you are seeing as the future of the legal market in 2022 and beyond.

I mean, this is probably your crystal ball gazing, visualization moment, Ken, but what are you seeing as trends in Tokyo, or around the globe, or just 2022? What's hitting you right now? And what are you seeing there?

Ken: It's a difficult time to take a view on the future of the practice of law in Tokyo. I think it's just a difficult time to get a sense of how Japan is going to come out of the pandemic. I think there are some reasons for concern about the business community here.

This has been, during my career, the best place in the world to practice because you have the largest concentration of great companies in a single place, probably anywhere in the world, because this is the third largest economy in the world. But by far the most concentrated of those three economies in terms of business leadership around Tokyo.

And so you have this great personal access. We have this great concentration here and you have great personal access when you do practice at one of the top law firms, to actually access the people, develop the relationships, and grow a practice here. So all those things are very, very positive. I expect they will continue.

I worry a bit about the pandemic. I think Japan has been more closed, more passive, in terms of restarting its business community, than it should have been, or might have been at least if it was going to optimize for continuing to be active in the global markets.

The Japanese companies have been very, very passive for the last two years in terms of going out into the market. And so they got to get back on their front foot and they got to go out and do stuff. But I think as long as they do that, I think that there will be a very bright future for practice here, globally.

And I think there'll be no place better than ours with a big concentration of Japanese lawyers, US lawyers, who work together and like each other to take advantage of the growth of the business environment and community in Tokyo. 

Catherine: I think you've got that right there with a little bit of passive-ness going on and that hesitancy to get back out in the market. I know some M&A deals were done remotely with people, with cameras on site for physical locations and things like that, but you still need your talent coming in don't you?

And so there must be a backlog of visas and people that you want to get moving back into the country. And I think Japan is looking at 5,000, 7,000, 10,000 entry into Japan starting sometime. But again, that's shared with students and with business people. So it's going to take a little while there. Isn't it?

Ken:  Absolutely. I mean, we have no first years, no second years in the office, you know, it's just very, very strange. We export work to actually our first years and second years in the US and that's all for the best. But it's just very disruptive of the workflows that we have.

And when you really cannot replenish your associate ranks and your attorneys, I've never been in an environment like this, and it's a little demoralising honestly, cause you want to bring people in, and you want to run your summer associates programs through, you want to be part of the larger growth of the organization.

You just can't do it in this environment. So I'm looking forward to that being behind us. I think the deflation in Japan continues. And there's a huge inflation of asset values in the rest of the world. If you do what we do, buy companies, the value of companies is way up because frankly private equity has done pretty much everything they could do to companies in the US prior to the pandemic. 

And then I think when people went home, all the private equity companies said, this SGNA, we can run it to zero and look how valuable these companies are with people working remotely. And they realized there was a whole deeper level of restructuring that could be achieved in these global companies.

And so prices are running in the US, M&A activity is running in the US, and I'm a bit concerned that the Japanese companies, when they come back into the market are just going to be shocked by the pricing, on their back feet, and not able to really engage in a constructive fashion.

They're going to have to relearn M&A, the way they did in the 90s and early 2000s. I just hope that they are prepared to embrace that challenge, because I think there will be one when the market reopens here. 

Catherine: Wow. That's really insightful. And I think that's a little scary and I'm wondering, you know, there's a lot of things you cannot do about that situation, but is there anything you can do to try and get ahead of that with your clients and let them know this is what's coming, and try and encourage them to get back into the market?

Is there anything that can be done there?

Ken: I don't think so. I mean, they have to make their own decisions about their own deals and what they want to pursue and what their business strategy is. I think what we can do is be available for them to help people that have not been thinking about doing these deals, do them, and be available to execute them.

I mean, one of the differences in our office is we can effectively be a kind of rent a legal department function. I mean, for companies that don't regularly do M&A, we have the scale to just pick up a deal and basically execute it in collaboration with them on a smaller internal legal platform than they might typically be the case.

So we can be available to execute these deals, but we can't front run them. 

Catherine: Right. That makes sense. So in that light, what advice then would you have for lawyers who are in the Tokyo community now? And I guess there's the depletion of first and second years in your associate pool there. What sort of advice then would you have for people who are sitting in the Tokyo market now, who are lawyers?

What sort of skill sets are they needing to bring to be a really good lawyer in this day and age?

Ken: Well, I think it's the same skill set of commitment to the client, commitment to hard work, commitment to teaming, to bring all the assets that are necessary for the client to the table together in a single place. So I think that nothing has changed there. And I think frankly, for lawyers that are here it's great because I think actually the legal community has shrunk. 

Probably I want to say 15, 20% over the last couple of years, because again it's a very mobile community, normal law firm attrition is 10% or 15% a year. And so if you just shut the spigot, you're going to have people leaving the market at about that rate. So I would assume that the total community is 15, 20% smaller.

And I think once the economy restarts, the needs will be the same or greater than they were two years ago. And so I think it's just a kind of tough it out and wait for the market to turn. But I do think it's a question when the market will turn and how it will turn. I think that remains to be seen.

I don't think it's going to be a switch. 

Catherine: Yeah. And that's not in your crystal ball I know, nor in anybody else's. Is there any then particular advice you would have for the people who are trying to start out their career? You know, they're coming through the last years of their study and qualifying, and they're seeing this gap, first year, second year. Are they going to be concerned that they’re behind, they're not going to be able to grab those places?

What do you see happening there as people are emerging out of qualifying?

Ken: I don't think that's too much of a concern. I think we have 10, 15 or so associates in the US who we will start bringing over. We've actually got two or three visas on tap now. And so I think, assuming there are no more variants and assuming that the Japanese government continues to liberalise the inbound rules back towards normal, I think we will bring everyone over within the next 12 months. 

And by next summer, that gap will be refilled and we'll be back in the law schools looking for people to join and able to offer them the kind of experience in the office that they had prior to the pandemic. So I think we'll get there. It's just not clear to me whether it will be a bumpy road or a little bit more smooth sailing from here. 

Catherine: Wow, challenging times for a managing partner, but also that is super great news to hear that you have actually got some visas coming along the line there.

Ken, I'm going to ask you a question I ask my guests quite often about worst advice, best advice, some of the worst advice or best advice you received in your career so far.

And I guess, taking you back to when you were younger, if you were standing in front of yourself and giving guidance to yourself, what would you say now to your younger lawyer self? 

Ken: The best advice I might've gotten was from a guy named Dan, Dan Fenno Henderson, who was one of the original 12 lawyers that passed the bar in the 1950s. I called him when I was in law school and I said, I want to practice law in Japan.

And his advice was like, put your seat on the chair and just get to work, don't think of it as any different than any other career. You just gotta, you know, build your skills and then let everything else happen for you. and I did that and that was probably pretty good advice.

It wasn't very complex advice, but it turned out to work pretty well. I guess what I would say to the young people is, I know the most disappointing to me, in young people from time to time is I just wonder, you know, people put in an extraordinary amount of time, energy and finances into building their career opportunity in the law, going through law school. And then sometimes they get into the legal market and somebody offers them a $25,000 bonus to a $50,000 bonus to move to another firm, change jobs, move on. I feel in the current generation there's a lack of appreciation of the long-term benefits of staying with an organisation.

Maybe I'm ignorant on this since I've been with the same organisation since law school and something of a dinosaur in that regard. But I do see young people sometimes really costing themselves real optionality, real opportunity, real value, by jumping around with no real benefit in their early careers.

And I would just suggest to people that they get with the right organisation, obviously be attentive to the question of whether it is the right organisation, but if it's in the ballpark, work with the organisation to get better and build, at least until you have the point where you've got some true skill acquisition, and some true sense of the opportunity you want to pursue and give yourself a little more time to benefit from all the investment that's gone into your law school career, and not jump around too soon.

That'd be my hope for the younger people that joined the office when I think about it. 

Catherine: Wow. That's great. The grass is definitely not always greener. And I think you're very right there with that appreciation for what you've got, not so much looking towards what you could or think you need to get, or it's not always all about the money as well. So I do like that. I don't think you're a dinosaur more like a well matured wine waiting to be consumed fully. 

So I think don't downgrade yourself. I think staying with the firm for a very long time really shows a lot. 

And that's why I wanted to talk with you because you have been here a long time. There's a reason for that. And I think that's a great way of showing leadership to others and for them to know that's why you are here.

Ken: And I would say on that note, that one of the things that a larger law firm institution should be able to produce and provide to its attorneys, and its constituents is an ability to have their career evolve over time. I mean, you do your work as a young associate, you learn skills, you get oriented to what you do know, and more importantly, what you don't know, and how you can easily adapt to what you don't know. You don't need to be afraid of it. You just need to put the tools to work, to block and tackle your way into new areas. 

So you learn that and then you need to evolve your career over 20 years or 15 years. You need to do different things.

And what you want is an organisation that supports you, provides you with mentors, with supporters, with assets, and requisite inputs to be successful, and the ability to move around if you want to do it. And that's what you should be looking for. And hopefully there are still organisations out there that provide those kinds of support and opportunities to their young attorneys.

Catherine: I was going to ask you three tips that you might have to share to inspire lawyers, but I'm going to call out your first tip, which is appreciating what you've got and long-term benefits of being where you are. And then also, I think maybe a second one is related to that, not moving around outside of the organisation, but seeing what you can do within the organisation.

And I expect that applies not only to law firms, but within companies where people are in-house lawyers, and they can move to different areas to experience different things within the umbrella of the organisation. So I'm going to ask you one more final tip then, to put in. And if I've misquoted you on the tips, you can add some more.

Ken: Those are better stated than I stated them. And my last tip would be just think about if you're a lawyer, think about what your differentiator is. What is your skillset? What do you do better? You know, there's tons of highly successful lawyers. Some are highly analytical, some are great drafters, some are great negotiators, some are great open field runners, some are great networkers. 

You know, people do different things. There is no one size fits all. You know, you asked earlier about language, language can be a differentiator. So embrace your skills and don't try to do, you don't have to do everything.

You just have to do what you do very well and team with people who appreciate and support what you do. 

Catherine: Fantastic. Okay. Well, I can certainly see for everybody who's looking at you, what they need to do to get to a position where you are, from what you've told us.

And we've come to the closure of this very special episode with you. So thank you very much for giving us your billable time today. 

Ken: No problem. Thank you very much. I enjoyed it.

Catherine: You really shared some truly inspirational insights to the market here, what lawyers need to do to be successful. And showing that this concept of success doesn't mean just jumping away and trying to find another job somewhere else, but actually staying focused on where you are and doing deeper work.

And making sure you’ve got the support and the mentors and the assets, you need to have a very successful career and really enjoy it. So thank you so much for taking your time to share your thoughts. How can listeners get in touch with you? Through your website contact page? Would that be a great place?

Ken: Sure that works. And by email. I'm not highly fluent and capable in diverse forms of technology, but I do use emails. 

Catherine: That is fantastic. We'll put that in the show notes. So anyone who's interested can connect with you in that way, if they wanted to talk with you? 

Ken: Sure. 

Catherine: I know you're very busy, but that would be great to have your email there. So thanks so much. And for my listeners, please do like this episode and subscribe to Lawyer on Air.

Also do drop us a short review because that does help the podcast be seen and heard by more people. And you can actually go and jump on my web page and find this episode and leave me a voicemail. I do love hearing the actual voice of people telling me about our guests and especially today's special guest. I'd love to hear your feedback.

Do go ahead and share this episode with somebody else who would really enjoy listening to it and be inspired to live a wonderful lawyer extraordinaire life. That's all for now. See you on the next episode. Thank you, Ken. And cheers, goodbye and kampai.

Subscribe using your favourite podcast player.

Apple Podcasts| Spotify| Breaker| Google Podcasts| RadioPublic

We would love to hear from you!

You can record your feedback by clicking on the button below.

By recording a message you are acknowledging and agree that we may share your message with our subscribers and community on social media or other media. Thank you!

Lawyer on Air has been nominated for “Best Business Podcast” in the Quill Podcast Awards, 2022! Thank you to all our supporters who voted for the podcast!