A full transcript follows.

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Yuko Noguchi shares how she narrowed down the many options she wanted to pursue with the help and advice from respected colleagues and lecturers. Yuko has done an amazing job of achieving the kind of career that many would envy, culminating in her current role as Head of Legal at Google, Japan. Listen as she takes us on an unbelievable journey through the bold choices she made to be where she is today.

If you enjoyed this episode and it inspired you in some way, we’d love to hear about it and know your biggest takeaway. Head over to Apple Podcasts to leave a review and we’d love it if you would leave us a message here!

In this episode you’ll hear:

• How Yuko had a quiet start academically until her teachers pointed out her abilities

• The way she narrowed down the options of all the things she wanted to do after law school with the help of some useful advice

• How she made a name for herself through her research

• The thought processes that helped her to move to an in-house position

• The things she looks for when she is hiring candidates at Google Japan

• Her favourite book and other fun facts 

About Yuko

Yuko is Director and Head of Legal at Google Japan Inc. Yuko’s responsibilities include overseeing many Google-related legal issues for the territory of Japan. She is the legal representative on the Japan management team, managing a legal team of 15 members.  Her team covers a wide range of matters, including product counseling, commercial negotiations, dispute resolutions and advice on regulatory compliance.

She’s also serving on public policy matters in several government committees around Internet, Intellectual Property, and Artificial Intelligence and closely works with public policy and communication teams as well as business leaderships to manage overall company risks. 

Yuko is an experienced in-house lawyer and also has distinguished law firm experience. She spent 15 years and for the last few years served as a Partner at the prestigious top four law firm of Mori Hamada and Matsumoto.

Yuko received a Bachelors of Law from Tokyo University, first in 1995 in Private Law and in1996 in Public Law. Then while she was working at the law firm, she obtained her Juris Science Master from Stanford Law School in 2002 and then her Juris Science Doctor from Stanford Law School in 2006 with a dissertation topic on US and Japan optimal copyright policy in the digital era. 

She has served on multiple Government committees for METI, the Intellectual Property Strategy Headquarters, and Agency for Cultural Affairs, is professionally skilled in Nonprofit Organizations, and she is also the author of numerous major publications. 

Since February 2022, Yuko has been serving as a non-executive member of the Board of Directors at Astroscale Holdings.

She’s also a mum of one and devoted to her son. Yuko has lots of outside work interests including Psychology, cooking – especially having lots of fun with her 11 year old son who is super creative! Yuko is also a curious traveller and has travelled to 20 countries so far.

Connect with Yuko 

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/yuko-noguchi-99556710/ 

Links

Book: 心の盲点

Connect with Catherine 

Linked In https://www.linkedin.com/in/oconnellcatherine/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lawyeronair

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/catherine.oconnell.148

Twitter: https://twitter.com/oconnelllawyer 

Transcript

Catherine:  Hi everyone. Welcome to another episode in Season four of Lawyer On Air.

I'm the host of the show, Catherine O'Connell. Today I'm joined by Yuko Noguchi. Yuko is a director and head of legal at Google Japan, GK, and she has been at Google for approaching nine years. She was first senior counsel and then became director in 2018. As you can imagine from working in a global household tech company such as Google, Yuko's responsibilities cover overseeing many Google related legal issues for the territory of Japan.

She's the legal representative on the Japan management team, managing a legal team of 15 members. Her team covers a wide range of matters, including product counselling, commercial negotiations, dispute resolutions, and advice on regulatory compliance.

She is also serving on public policy matters in several government committees around internet, intellectual property, and artificial intelligence, and closely works with public policy and communication teams, as well as the business leadership to manage overall company risks.

Yuko is an experienced in-house lawyer and she has distinguished law firm experience. She spent 15 years and for the past few years of her term serving as partner at the prestigious top four law firm of Mori Hamada & Matsumoto. Yuko has built her career on her strong educational foundations. She first got not one, but two bachelor of law from Tokyo University, first in 1995 in private law, and in 1996 in public law.

Then while she was working at the firm, she obtained her Juris Science Masters from Stanford Law School in 2002, and then her Juris Science doctor from Stanford Law School in 2006 with a dissertation topic on US and Japan optimal copyright policy in the digital era. Well, Yuko doesn't stop there. She has served on multiple government committees for METI, the Intellectual Property Strategy Headquarters, and Agency for Cultural Affairs.

She is professionally skilled in non-profit organisations and she is also the author of numerous major publications, including the authored book, Copyright in the Era of Digital Technology in 2010, and several other co-authored books as well as articles published in the US Law Review.

Since February 2022, Yuko has been serving as the non-executive member of the Board of Directors at Astroscale Holdings, contributing as an independent officer with legal and compliance background, and she attends board meetings, giving a high level strategic advice on important legal issues, legal team building and risk management.

Well, that's phenomenal so far, but Yuko is also very, very busy. And I can tell that, you know, recently she was a person who was a panellist on a woman in law, Japan legal operations panel event. And she seems to really, even though she's very busy, take everything in her stride and keeps calm, and almost seems to me a little laid back, but in a very, very good way.

She's also a very devoted mom. Yuko has lots of outside work interests. One of them is psychology, especially positive psychology. Another is cooking, especially having lots of fun with her 11 year old son who apparently is very creative as well.

And Yuko is a curious traveller and has travelled to 20 countries so far. Wow. That is Yuko in a semi quick summary. I'm really pleased to bring you Yuko as my guest today. Yuko, welcome to the show.

Yuko: Thanks, Catherine. Nice to be here.

Catherine: Thanks so much. Well, we're gonna talk today about your career path, influences you've had along your journey, your studies in law, career insights, and perhaps a little board insight there too. And I'd love you to provide some tips and ideas during our conversation that might be helpful for that next generation of in-house legal counsel or associates who are coming up the ranks behind you.

Are you ready?

Yuko: Yes, I am.

Catherine: Great. Well, today we are talking online, but if we are meeting up in person, where would we be? Do you have a favourite wine bar or cafe or restaurant that you love to go to? And what would be your choice from the menu?

Yuko: Hmm, I've thought of this. I have a lot of favourite places, but there is one Italian restaurant that I love to go. And probably I'll be ordering a nice salad and some good pasta. And at the end I really want to have a great coffee.

Catherine: What would you drink while you were having the salad and pasta?

Yuko: I used to like a bit of alcoholic beverages, but after I had my son, I kind of tend towards non-alcoholic beverages these days. But the great thing about Covid is that, a great non-alcoholic beer and sparkling wine and everything actually really developed and they are really tasty.

So I really love to have those.

Catherine: I agree with you. I remember having, during the so-called lockdown and we couldn't have anything alcoholic served, at Tokyo American Club I ordered a non-alcoholic beer and I was so surprised how delicious it was.

Yuko: Yes. They're really great. So, I even started enjoying them at home. It's, you know, it's less pricey and it really makes you feel relaxed.

Catherine: That's really great. Yeah. I'm glad to hear that. And then I think we, you know, probably you can head towards not having as much alcohol these days if we want to, and I love that idea. And I'm trying to find out some other nice non-alcoholic beers, and other non-alcoholic sparkling wines too.

So thanks for that. That's great. How about then, heading back into really early days when you were a child, can you remember what you wanted to be? I always ask people this question, I'd love to know.

Yuko: Right. So it changed over time. When I was in elementary school, really small… oh, before that I wanted to be a princess of course. I was a really girly girl, I think, and I was really enjoying seeing all these princess stories and stuff. But then when I hit elementary school, I wanted to be a shopkeeper because one of my relatives had a shop and I visited them and I found it kind of nice to serve clients and, you know, sell things.

And I found it amusing. So I wanted it to be maybe a cake shop. I wanted to run cake shops or something. That was when I was in elementary school. I still remember when I got grade six now I wanted to be a newscaster because somehow, I thought the newscaster kind of collects and knows everything about the world, and I felt they were so smart.

Of course, now I know that all the scripts are written by somebody else. So naive. Yeah. So I thought, oh, that looked pretty cool. So that was grade six. Then I think when I was at high school, there's this kind of a moment where, you know, in this Japanese high school, you need to decide either you take a science major or a social science major.

And I was really torn because on one end I liked English, I liked literature kind of thing, but at the same time, I somehow hated history at the time. Now I find it very interesting, but at the time I just took it as memorising lots of names and years and everything, and it was a bit painful for me.

And I rather liked maths and science, So I felt like, yeah, I'm doing better on those subjects, so I should go to a science major. And so I went and asked one of the science teachers at high school saying, you know, I'm really thinking of taking a science major because I'm really interested in computers.

So obviously at the time I'm already interested in computers and information technology. So the teacher went, Okay, are you interested in hardware or software? And I really didn't know what he was saying, so I even didn't know what's the difference between software and hardware.

So I couldn't answer that question and the teacher looked very puzzled. So I realised, okay, even though I'm interested in all these subjects, maybe I'm not too interested in the technology itself. Maybe I'm more interested in the social impact of it. 

And then I was wondering and bumped into a principal of high school and he said like, Yuko, Hi, how are you? How's it going? And I said, I'm still deciding on whether I should take a science major or a social science major. And he said, Oh, you should come to my room and we should talk. And we sat down. And he was obviously, you know, before he became a principal, he was a social science teacher.

Of course, obviously he had a bias, but somehow he thought, you know, I know you fairly well. I really believe you should go to social science and have a bigger impact. I mean, technology of course has an impact, but you should do something about social policies or something. And I somehow felt convinced. So that's how I got into the legal department later.

Catherine: Okay. 

Yuko: So, you know, obviously I think that is my pattern in my life, so to speak. Yeah. From the very beginning I have to think about a lot of things before I make a decision.

So in my life, I had these deciding moments, and then you do this pros and cons all the time. But I think I came to realise later on that it's actually, when you're making an important decision, it's actually better to go with your intuition rather than all these tricks of pros and cons and which appears to be better than, yeah, we can get to that later.

So I got into Tokyo University, and I figured actually law is kind of closer to maths in a sense that it has core principles and then you apply, like you apply certain concrete numbers, you get a concrete answer. Just as you do that, I think law is similar in a sense that it has a lot of principles that are well thought, and you apply concrete cases and then you'll get the answer, and then you go like, Okay, is this a fair conclusion at the end?

And I found it more useful than economics.

So I felt like, okay, I want to be more useful and want to be more, you know, closer on the ground in terms of, you know, facts and I want to be more programmatic. So that's why I decided to get into law.

Catherine: Mm, Very interesting. There's so much in there, right, that you had this sort of, it sounds like a lot of influence from teachers rather than perhaps family, but family are probably in there as well. But the teacher who sort of said what hardware or software, it's like almost you want that teacher to explain what the difference is, right?

It's not expected that you would know it at a young age.

Yuko: And interestingly, you know, I have an elder sister and when we were young, my sister was more, do everything more quickly and precisely type of thing.

So by a certain age, my sister was doing this while Yuko isn't doing this yet. So naturally my parents started to think, Mm, maybe Yuko isn't that smart or bright or anything, but she seems to like being a princess and whatnot, so maybe she can be a little princess to somebody else. Right?

Meaning being a great housewife. So that was what my parents first thought of me. And so instead of sending me to all of these Kumon or, you know, cram school or anything, I was like helping my mom cook dinner. I went to ballet school, like drawing school. So that was how I spent my younger age.

And then the grade five sixth teacher kind of turned around to my mom saying like, um, mother, I think Yuko is actually pretty smart, so you shouldn't set her up to be a housewife, but maybe something a little bit more. My mom told me later that she was really shocked. 

And so I remember my mom said, So do you think she could get into this high school that's said to be the best in the city? And the teacher went, Oh no. She could even go better than that.

I was living in Kanagawa Prefecture at the time, and of course you have school jurisdictions. So my mom was asking about one school that was best in the jurisdiction I lived in. But for really smart kids there was like a really small seats where people go across the jurisdiction and apply for other, you know, better schools.

So she said she could even try to get to the best school in Kanagawa Prefecture if she really tries hard. And I think my mom was hugely shocked by it.

Catherine: Did you actually get into that Kanagawa school afterwards or what happened? What ended up there with the school that you got into?

Yuko: Yeah. So I ended up going to the best public high school in Kanagawa Prefecture. The teacher kind of set a goal for me. So of course that school parent meeting that my mom had with the teacher was only the two of them. I wasn't in the room, but afterwards my mom, of course, was so surprised she told me that.

And that was a pleasant surprise to me as well. Okay. So this teacher that I like very much, she believed I could do it. And that kind of set a goal for me. Okay, I really want to aim to try to get into this high school. So when I hit junior high, I was already really hard working in terms of exams and things because I really wanted to see whether it's true that I could get in.

And funnily enough, sending some students to those high schools is somewhat of a prestige for the public junior high as well. You know, all the principals from the junior high school get together and kind of discuss who should apply for this school. And so it's kind of an honour for the principal to have a really high performing student.

So again, I was feeling some expectation from the teachers, because obviously our interests match in that sense. And then when I got to high school, then of course every high school, it's important which university the graduates went to. 

Catherine: Right, you got into Tokyo University and then you kept going and kept going and kept going, and then you finally did your bar exam. But in between there you had other things that you were doing as well, right? With your study in the US.

Tell us a bit more about that with your Tokyo University and doing those two kinds of law that you did, public and private, and then heading off to the States. 

Yuko: I was really searching for what I want to become during this time. And as I said briefly, I really found those legal lectures somewhat intellectually stimulating. I know some students really didn't like that at all, but I kind of found it interesting that there are core principles in law and it has histories, why it has emerged.

It's kind of collected wisdom, you know, based on a history. I found those processes very interesting. And I have to tell you, I had this vague image of what I wanted to become ultimately, and it was this idea of, I want to be a specialist of something that I could contribute to. And then, you know, we work with other specialists in other disciplines and then we collect our wisdom to make the society better kind of thing.

So that was one vague idea that I had. And the other thing as I said is that since high school, I really have this image of computers becoming more and more impactful in society. So I was shocked to see some of those computers. I kind of had an image back then that computers would at some point in time become smarter than people maybe, and it would have a huge impact on society and people, and therefore we have to find a way to make it useful for society, but not harmful. 

And I wanna be part of that effort. So I already had that image when I was in high school, and that's why I went to my science teacher and asked about computers.

And maybe that was partly an influence I got from my father, although he was not a computer scientist, he was more of a chemical scientist. He was a science researcher at the beginning and then later on he worked on patents. That's what I got from my father that I, you know, got into intellectual property law. That is obviously heavily influenced by my father because I found, Okay, so I still like to hear about pure science stories and by doing patents you can hear from all these clients about the very cool cutting edge stories about the science and you can learn about those technologies and you are still got to pay, you know, by listening to those lecturers.

So I really liked doing patents, when I first got to a law firm. But, getting back to the university age, I had that vague idea of that how I want to be and how I want to contribute to society or what kind of things I want to do, but then I didn't know which occupation would provide me with that opportunity to do that.

Is it to become a legal professor? Or should I become a bureaucrat and craft policies? Or should I become a judge, or maybe a private practice lawyer? I didn't know the answer and therefore I was looking at all sorts of directions, really confused. But the choice of becoming a bureaucrat dropped rather early, because I went to one of those recruiting sessions by the ministries and I found the working culture is actually pretty demanding there. 

Like long hours of work, and of course, the salary isn't high enough and it sounded like a pretty male dominant culture there. So I felt like, ooh, maybe I wouldn't enjoy my day to day life there. So even though the idea of crafting social policies or even law sounded pretty appealing to me, I didn't want to be there. 

So I was deciding between becoming a law researcher, staying in the university and keep doing research and thinking about the principles, or I take a bar exam. So I remember one day I went to the room of professor Nakayama, who was actually a leading intellectual property professor at the time at Tokyo University.

And I told him, you know, I'm deciding between these two. He said, I know you are taking a bar exam already. I really want you to work hard on it. And then if you pass, you should at least get out of the university and see the real world in action before you really decide and come back to be a researcher.

Because he said, I also took a bar exam. I had an option of going to the legal training institute under the Supreme Court to become a lawyer in Japan, but I didn't do it and I decided to stay at the university and I never got out of it. 

So he said, you know, I'm doing my job really hard. I am fully aware that whatever the professors in the ivory tower say could be actually a bit unrealistic.

I hear those criticisms all the time. So what I try really hard to do is to meet with business people, really trying to understand what's going on on the ground and try to be mindful of the real reality of society. And I'm always doing self-checks whether I'm not one of those, you know, professors in the ivory tower, but I kind of regret that I didn't go to the legal institute.

I didn't take the chance to look at the real world. So I really want you to go and see the real world. If you want to become a researcher, come back and do that in the university.

Catherine: He wanted you to do something that he hadn't done, and he could tell that it would be good for you to step aside from the study in a university environment and go and do something a little bit different.

Yuko: Right. And that was kind of convincing to me. But, I went and talked with another professor, and that professor was a tax law professor. I had zero interest in tax, but because I took his seminar, I was relatively close to him. So I went and asked him about the same question, I don't know what I want to do.

And he said a very interesting thing that later on had a big influence on me. He said this, Okay, imagine a beautiful spring day. It's sunny, it's not hot. And the family next door is preparing for a picnic. You know, it has a picnic basket and great food in it. And then they cheerfully go out for a picnic and you are in your room looking at that neighbour from the window, and you have piles of articles you have to read in order to finish up your law review article.

If you can still sit down and happily read that and keep writing your article, maybe you want to become a researcher, but if you want to join them in a picnic, then maybe this is not for you. Then I was really shocked to hear that, I'm one of these people that have to go to a picnic.

It's a beautiful day, right? And at that time, I really didn't understand what he was trying to get to. So I felt like, hmm, maybe you know, this professor, I could totally say he's the type of guy that could happily sit at the desk and keep writing his legal review essays.

But I'm thinking like there should be many different types of professors and maybe he's one of these types, but, Mm, I'm not, obviously, but that doesn't mean I couldn't become a legal researcher. So that wasn't really a deciding factor, but that somehow stayed in my brain. And then, getting to the Stanford story, following Professor Nakayama's advice. I went to the legal training institute to get the bar, you know, Professor Nakayama said maybe minimum two years to finish up the Legal Training Institute. Back then it was two years. Maybe it's good enough to see the world because in that process, as you'll have a peek at how the courts are operating, how the public prosecutor's office are operating, and you'll have a little bit of experience working for a law firm.

So you'll have a little bit of everything. It's a real experience and if you think you're ready to come back, you could come back. But after two years, I felt, yes, I've seen the courts, I've seen the public prosecutor's office, but I was interested in law and technology. I wanted to do intellectual property law.

I didn't see that intellectual property law in action. Right? So that's why I joined Mori Hamada & Matsumoto because that was one of the law firms that had a really established intellectual property division.

And I really like the partner there. So I asked, I really wanted to work in the intellectual property division and if you would let me do that, I want to join the firm. And the firm said, Yeah, why not? So that's how I started working. I really liked it. Like so many other legal associates, I worked pretty hard.

I worked till 1, 2 AM you know, not every day, but many of the days. But it wasn't very hard for me, maybe because the people that I was surrounded by, were all great people. And the file that I was working on was very interesting. So I had a lot of fun. But then of course, this idea of whether I want to be a researcher was haunting me.

So that's why when many of the law firm associates go and get LLM, I intentionally aimed for Stanford because I think it was a year or two before Professor Lawrence Lessig wrote this book called Code. And it was a really phenomenal book. And he was at Harvard at the time, but a year before I went to Stanford, Lessig moved over to Stanford. So I really wanted to see him in action. So that's why I went to Stanford. And of course, the master degree is one year. And after one year of a master degree, you sit for the bar and then you go to your friend law firm for a year to do, you know, visiting associates to build human network before you come back and start working again.

So I had my law firm arranged already after one year of the master degree. But when this master degree was coming to an end, I had this feeling that, oh, I just took a look at what kind of topics are out there in this world without knowing too much about them.

And so I secretly applied for the doctoral degree. Of course, you know, my law firm is already arranged, so I couldn't tell it to the law firm. So I secretly did it. And then, I knew that I got accepted. And also Lawrence Lessig agreed to become my advisor.

Catherine: Really?

Yuko: Yeah. So I said like, okay. And partly the reason why he was kind of interested in me is that he had his sabbatical coming up the next year, and then he already had an arrangement to come to Tokyo University for six months to do his research.

So he's like, Oh, you are from Japan, so why don't you come with me to Tokyo and do the research with me? You can help me with my research.

Catherine: Perfect.

Yuko: So I was like, Wow!

Catherine: That's once in a lifetime for that, sort of combination of the universe to come together like that for you, you couldn't say no.

Yuko: Right. Normally I was thinking like, you know, I would defer this. I would go to the law firm. I'll see whether I like it or not, or whether I really can forget this opportunity and want to come back and then I'll do it right.

And that way I don't have to upset the law firm, blah, blah, blah. But this cannot wait. Right? I have to decide now. So I still remember the day I picked up my phone and I called, you know, the partner in charge and said like, I really want to do this doctoral degree thing.

Catherine: Hmm.

Yuko: But of course before that I was thinking there hasn't been anybody that's done it before.

So I was, you know, running the simulation of, Oh, what if after trying so hard, I couldn't get the, you know, the degree. And the law firm, of course, couldn't wait. And they fired me. So I don't have a job. I spent all my savings on this degree, and at the end, I either couldn't get the degree or I barely get the degree, but I couldn't find a job and, you know, I lost everything.

What would happen? I had to do that worst case scenario simulation. But I think like, mm, maybe then I at least can speak English and I still have a bar. So maybe I can have my tiny little law firm and I still could survive, right? That was kind of my worst case scenario. So I said, Okay, at least I won't starve so maybe I'll just have to do it.

So I told the law firm that I really, I'm excited, I just can't let it go because of this Tokyo University thing. And of course the law firm wasn't happy because it's not easy for them to arrange a visiting associate thing. So they said, Okay, so what would you do if I say no? That was the question from the partner. And it sounded to me like, Okay, if you can't stop doing that, I'm gonna fire you. It sounded like that to me, but I thought if I say, Well, if you say no, I will give up, then I should give up, right?

Because that's what he's suggesting. So I had to say, if the law firm said no, then I had to quit and do this. And the law firm partner went, Okay, I understand where you are. I'll discuss it internally and come back to you. 

Catherine: It sounds like he's testing you to see if you are really, really, really interested in that. Or just thought you wanted to, and if you had really showed that complete devotion to wanting to go ahead and do the PhD, you'd think, I feel like he was trying to test you to see if you wanted to do that.

And it sounds like you gave an answer that made him realise, Yeah, she wants to do this.

Yuko: Yeah. So obviously that was the partner that I trusted the most.

Catherine: That's really important. Mm.

Yuko: Yeah. So, I'm pretty sure he had to do a negotiation for me, but a few days later he came back to me and said, Okay, we'll give you two years. So, you know, we'll let you stay. but we're not gonna pay you.

So you have to do it on your own. So no financial support, but we'll let you stay with our firm and you have to finish it in two years. So I said, Great, thank you so much. But after two years, of course I couldn't finish it. I have to call them and say, I need one more year.

And they said, Well, we've already invested it, you know, enough so I can wait for you for another year. 

Catherine: Sounds like Yuko’s toughest negotiation ever was this particular negotiation. 

Yuko: Right. But I was living in a dorm in the Bay Area, it's quite expensive right now. It's really crazy, but not so much back then. So, of course I really had a modest life there, but I could survive with my savings from the years that I worked at the law firm. And then, I still was really excited about this legal theory and how the law is emerging, you know, given the very rapid social changes and you know, how to think about good public policy versus bad public policy would have a real impact in society.

I've seen all that, but then I realised I really like to think about those things. But when you want to be a law researcher, things won't stop there, right? You have an opportunity to write all your ideas, but then you have to read every single legal article in that area, and then you have to do the citation to avoid plagiarism and all that stuff.

And that part was so painful for me, because I already have what I want to say, but when you look at the US law review articles, every other page, your main body text is like one third of the page and two thirds of the page is filled up with all the footnotes.

Catherine: So true. Yeah.

Yuko: Yeah.

And that part was like, so painful. And then I suddenly realised, and remembered that law professor analogy about sitting in the library doing that thing, versus going out on a picnic. And I really felt that and said like, oh, he knew, you know, especially during the young age, that is, you have to devote yourself to it, and if you cannot enjoy that process, you can't be a legal researcher.

That was what he was trying to tell me. I really had the full understanding of his advice and I really appreciated it. And I decided, okay, this is not my thing.

Catherine: Yeah, because for him inside the room at the desk was his picnic. It wasn't that it was, picnic is better than sitting at the desk. It's just that that kind of picnic he was doing, looking at so many different articles and finding the footnotes and creating that, that was his picnic.

But your picnic might be the one that is actually happening across the way where you can have maybe some more freedom or you are doing something different.

So that's interesting that it finally occurred to you there what he meant, and how significant that story he told you was. That's just brilliant.

Yuko: Exactly. Yeah. I mean, I'm always telling people when you're trying to choose an occupation or whatever, it's really important to think about day to day, right? For example, a lot of people join a law firm and then they quit after a year or two, some stay on. I've never seen a lawyer quit their job because they wanted to do tax law or finance and they couldn't do it. It's more like, Oh, I just can't get along with the partner I was working with. You know, that is more of a real story. So you really have to respect what your strengths are or what you enjoy doing day to day, versus what's your ideal or how you want to contribute to society.

It's all good, but without knowing yourself very well, and without being able to enjoy what you do every day, you won't be good. So after that dissertation, it was actually quite painful for me. I'm glad I've done it. But after that I was so happily ready to go back to private practice.

Catherine: How long were you there then? Because then Google comes up for you as a job.

There's lots of people waiting to hear, cuz this is really such a lovely and very interesting kind of journey through the buffet of your life and your career, of the things that you've chosen to devour, to taste on your way to coming to this sort of Google role, which you can correct me if I'm wrong, but it feels like the culmination of all of this has come together.

Your love of computers, your love of study, but not too much and everything seems to have come together for you to get this role that you are in now.

Yuko: Yeah, I agree. And, you know, when I was a university student, Google even didn't exist. And then, yeah, and then I spent my days at Stanford from 2001 to 2005. So from 2001 to 2002, I did my master’s degree. And from 2002 to 2005 I did my doctoral degree. And then I was still finishing up my dissertation, but my visa was expiring.

So I decided to come back home, come back to Tokyo and start working at the law firm first a bit, kind of part time-ish, so that during the day I can use my brain on something else. And then during the night I was madly finishing my dissertation.  

So while I was doing my research, I was with Larry in Tokyo for a while, and he encouraged me to do, you know, on the ground research. So I went out and did a hearing with a bunch of people. Some of them included policy makers from the bureaucrats, some of them from the business owners or the companies, and that's how people started to recognize that, oh, there is this person called Yuko that's doing research at Stanford on this topic.

So when I finished my dissertation and came back to the firm, that's how the government reached out to me and asked whether I was willing to sit on one of those panels for policy making. 

Catherine: That must have made the firm feel pretty proud of you though, right? To be invited to that kind of panel.

Yuko: Yeah, I think so. Looking back, I was very naive at the time. One of the partners told me and said, You know what? You go doing a great job at writing a memo or doing a great research is just only half of your job. The remaining half is to get a good fee and you still have them come back to you.

That's the latter half, and I totally get the first half. I was so naive at the time that I couldn't see the full picture. And of course, a law firm is a business, right? I couldn't really enjoy doing the latter half. So after I became a partner, now I can understand a bit more about what the partner was saying to me.

And he was, you know, he was really, truly giving useful advice if I want to be a successful partner, but I just didn't enjoy doing the latter half of the job. I enjoyed more these government meetings, but of course, you spend hours and you are just being paid very little money.

So, you know, business wise, it's not great business. It's just intellectually really interesting. I wanted to provide a different view that other people couldn't see. After I came back, Google and YouTube were my clients, so I was advising them on the Japan law issue.

And so that's how I came to join Google, because my predecessor asked, Why don't you come over to this end? I think he was doing that for two years or so before I finally decided to move in. I somehow felt, No, no, no, I don't want to become in-house. I love working for the law firm because that way you can work for many different clients and get to see different people.

Also, when you are in the law firm, you're kind of independent and that's why I was able to serve on the government committee. If you join a company, then you become a company person, right? Whatever you say externally is more like company talk, and that way you kind of lose independence.

So I was pushing back, but then I got married. I had my son and it was about the time that my son was three that I started to think whether I'm really enjoying my law firm partner days. And having this researcher in mind, I asked around a lot of people, especially a female partner with kids, and asked how they strike the right balance.

And I found again, this is not about right or wrong, or there isn't really one answer of how to do it right. It's more like, what's your preference? What do you wanna do? Working at the law firm and keeping serving as a great partner requires a lot of time and commitment.

It's a fact that a lot of partners would outsource a big portion of their childcare. Some people say, Oh, it's bad for the kid, it's so sad, blah, blah, blah. But I don't think that's right. As long as you have a really caring nanny or grandma or whatever, that's a great caregiver, your kids would be fine. 

I was a hundred percent convinced by it. It's more whether you want to devote your time more on work or whether you want to be the caregiver yourself and want to be with the kids. So it's not about your kid, it's more about you.

And when I realised that, I said like, I definitely wanted to be closer to my kid, and therefore that's partly a big reason why I moved in-house.

Catherine: Mm. That makes a lot of sense. And I think it goes back to what you said earlier too, about knowing your strengths, knowing what you enjoy, and knowing yourself well.

So you moved over to Google?

Yuko: So this head of the legal team for Japan was publicly posted.

Catherine: Hmm.

Yuko: And he said, you know, now I see real applicants and I started to interview them. So this is literally your last chance because the next person won't quit, right?

For the next few years. So if you are 1% interested in this job, then you just have to apply. So I said like, Okay, I have to apply. But you know, in the beginning I wasn't really sure, but as I was going through the interview, I got more and more interested in the company itself.

Because all the interviewers were really interesting looking back, like they kind of flashed me a little bit of the legal tech and management. They said there is this global litigation database and you’ve got to learn not only Japan, but all the issues around the globe and what the court is deciding and everything.

It's like a really global company. And I felt like, wow, that's probably way more exciting than in the law firm, I was with the law firm for 15 years already. I kind of know the ins and outs, right? I felt like, okay, now this is narrow in a sense that it's only Google, but it sounds like it's broader in a very different way.

So this could be exciting. So what I did is that I went and talked with a headhunter that contacted me a while ago and said, I wanted to talk with you. Of course, they thought I was looking for a job, and when I went and talked with her, I said, Now I have this offer. I don't know whether I should take it or not.

She laughed at me and said, Okay, so you already have a job, but you want my advice. But she was very, very kind to me and said, Look, you're already 15 years into the law firm, you're already a partner. So that means if you want to go in-house, there is like only a small number of seats that would satisfy you because you don't want to be like just an individual contributor, right?

You want to be a manager at least, or you want to be a general counsel of a decent company, and those seats are limited to start with. And then you have a particular area of industry you want to work for. Think about it, it's only a handful of companies that would be able to offer that job.

And imagine when is the next time that the lead position would be posted. So you have to think about that dynamic. So she was very, very kind to let me see the picture. And so I was like, Yeah, that's true. I have to try it.

And funny enough, I wasn't still a hundred percent sure. I went and talked with my law firm partner, my senior female partner that I really liked. I'm wondering about what's best for me, because this is Google I really wanna try, but if I moved over and thought it was a mistake, can I come back? 

Catherine: Wow. Really?

Yuko: Yeah. Funny, right? She said, I don't want you to come back in one year because it looks very bad on you. You tried something new and it's kind of obvious that you didn't like it. So I really want you to stay for two, three years and know enough to come back and tell, Oh, I know this is how it works in-house.

Right? So even though you hated it, you have to stay there for two years. Then we can talk again. So finally, I'm kind of, Okay, I'm ready to move over.

Catherine: Right.

Yuko: Yeah.

Catherine: Wow. Oh my goodness. It's so funny how you said that though. But I do really wanna say how that recruiter was just so useful for you to give you the unbiased view and you know, there's nothing in it for her because you already basically were on the fence teetering over towards in-house, but she gave you such good advice, and so true, right? That you had that diamond waiting for you and there's limited access to the diamonds in that kind of role.

So here you are in Google now and you've stayed for longer than three years, haven't you?

Yuko: Yeah, I did. So I really liked it. 

Catherine: Yeah. What do you love about it? And tell me about your team. How do you manage your team? Cuz you've got 15 people there. What are you loving? Cuz I just see that you really love your role, and that you are really now in that kind of area where it's really making you draw out all of those things that you really enjoy and all of your strengths.

And I saw that in action recently when you were on the panel. Tell us about what you like about your job now and the people who you have working with you.

Yuko: Yeah, there are a few things that I really like about Google. One is, of course, you know, the people that I work with. There are a lot of great people and I learn from everyone. And Google really invests in people. So there's a lot of great training that they offer with a professional external coach and stuff. And I really learn a lot. Not as a lawyer maybe, but as a person I learn a lot. And those wisdoms I think I can carry everywhere and it really made me a better person. I really enjoy managing or nurturing people. That is something that I found is my strength. 

And of course all the legal topics, it's cutting edge. It's right in the centre of all the debate. 

And then of course, it's just purely I mean it's interesting, not sometimes in a funny interesting, right? It's sometimes puzzling. It's sometimes, yeah, all sorts of issues. Some are very exciting, some a bit concerning, but it's the area of interest from my high school days.

And I really like being in the centre of that debate and seeing where this information technology is going, how it's impacting on people, of course, good and bad. How we could maximise the good side of it while addressing the negative side of it. And then, you know, the working culture is very flexible.

I still remember when I first joined Google, and then I got to introduce myself in this leadership forum. And then I said, you know, I'm Yuko. I came from the law firm. I have a three year old son, so sometimes, sorry, you know, I have to excuse myself because I have to take care of my child.

And maybe that's a problem for many of you, so I apologise in advance. That is what I told them. And one of them turned to me surprised and said, Oh, Yuko, that's of course totally fine. Everybody has family and they all understand.

So what you have to apologise for, I don't get it. You know, you don't have to, and then she said, that is the culture you're probably coming from. But this is a very different culture here. We all have families and of course family is important for everyone, so you don't have to be sorry for it. And I was really quite positively surprised.

Catherine: Exactly. Wow. Very nice. How do you enjoy it, then? You say you love nurturing your people who are working with you, right? And your team. How do you do that? How do you nurture as a head of legal your team? Do you encourage them to do what they like, what they're interested in? How do you do that?

Yuko: Right. So I have a few principles and many of them Google taught me, but one of the principles is to play with your strengths. So I have a diverse set of talents in my team and to some extent, I intentionally mix different types of people with different strengths because I think you are at your best when you're playing with your strengths.

And if you have the same amount of time, it's better to devote yourself to developing more on your strengths than fixing your problems. Everybody needs to know their strengths and of course you need to widen your skill set. So I will give them challenges when they're ready.

But there are certain things that you just cannot fix. For example, I was told that there are two types of people. When you are on summer break and you're given homework, I mean, Japanese kids get homework during the summer break, those people who just have to finish it right away to enjoy the rest of the summer.

And then there is the other type of people, you drag it out till the end and you just won’t be able to energise yourself to get it done until the deadline is really close. I'm obviously the latter and I know I'm not too proud of it, but they told me that is something that you are born with and it fundamentally cannot be fixed.

So you shouldn't punish people for their style. It's just a different style. It's okay as long as you meet the deadline. Right? But you need to know yourself well and you know, sometimes you need to work or I have to couple people, certain types of people with different strengths of people to make it a stronger team.

Right? And you also need to know yourself. I tell my team, sorry, if you send me an email and don't hear back from me, that's probably because I’m sleeping on it or got tons of emails that it fell between the cracks. Just send me a chat and remind me to catch my attention because that's how I work.

Right? So, one thing I was told is that there are certain things like that, that you can’t fix and you shouldn't be punished. And those people have different strengths, for example, like people who finish your homework early, of course they're more, I don't know, well planned, right? But people like me who leave things till the very end, they are often actually better in crisis.

Catherine: Mm.

Yuko: Because, the people who follow the plan actually get more worried and not just, you know, strong when things wouldn't go as planned.

Right? While those people would tend to be better at crisis and, you know, firefighting and fixing. And those things to some extent you can learn by working with people, but there are different strengths. So it's not that one side is better than the other, it's just a different strength.

So, the same goes with, for example, some people are really good at commercial negotiation. Some people are more good at, you know, dispute resolutions. And I think it's healthy that you're exposed to different types of work, especially when you are young, because you could find your new strengths by doing that.

So I would push people from time to time to be exposed to a new area. And when I do that, I'll always couple them with somebody who is really experienced so that they could, you know, learn from each other. And I also really be mindful to keep their portfolio healthy in a sense that I wouldn't fill their portfolio with a hundred percent challenging files.

You'll get maybe 30% of the challenging things. Then you'll need to spend a lot of energy on that one. You also have to have 50% or 70% of the job file that you're so familiar with. And you feel good by doing that because you know, that way you can keep your balance right.

Catherine: It is very interesting and I love how you're putting these cross strengths teams together where there's different people doing different things. And I think it sounds to me like you are letting those members of the team know what their strengths are and what they bring to the challenge that's happening so that people aren't just brought together and then they're thinking, Oh, that person's different to me, or they never get anything done.

They're always last minute, or, Oh, those people are always so ahead, but they've missed these other few points, or they're never any good when something quickly raises up its head. So are you, as part of your nurturing, letting people know, number one, you're telling them that strategy, I'm giving you 30% challenging. I'm giving you 70% that's your usual work. So you get your balance. 

Are you also helping them understand that the different other people in the teams have different strengths? So everyone kind of knows what their strengths are?

Yuko: Yes. Sometimes I say that aloud, sometimes it's more obvious from their background. For example, I have, out of my team, I have two members who are English native and Japanese is their second language. And, you know, they have different cultural backgrounds. In my one-on ones with them, we tend to talk about those things, how they're finding themselves, what they're enjoying.

I wouldn't necessarily ask them, What do you think are your strengths? But I often ask, What do you enjoy the most? And, where do you think you thrive? And you know, that question people can easily answer. 

Some people, especially I find this more in females than males, some people really are self-critical, and they're raised in that way, maybe. 

I was once put in this female director only training where we talked about sustainability, because one of the challenges at Google, of course, in terms of diversity, we want to have more female leaders. It's one thing to promote these people, but then having them stay in the role is another challenge.

So they have this training for female leaders’ wellness and sustainability, and they really, talked about gender differences there. Like the culture we tend to be brought up with, or just based on statistics, females tend to get depression way more than males globally, and that is probably because females tend to be hard on ourselves more than males.

Just a statistic. So of course there are a variety of people. 

And then I was told for example, think about an instance where you make a mistake, right? The females tend to go on and on and on, criticising yourself, you know, Oh, how bad I was that I decided to do this and this. Why didn't I see this coming? And I should have been more wise or careful, blah, blah, blah.

You go on and on. And then the teacher told us, Think about your best friend and imagine the same exact thing happening for your friend. What would you say to your friend? You wouldn't go and say like, Oh, stupid you, Why you didn't see that? Right? You would more go and say like, Oh, you know, I don't think a lot of people would be able to see that because it's dependent upon this and this condition, which is more unusual.

And after that, you did your best. So I think you are just unlucky, right? But now that you are working hard to fix it is like good enough, good on you. That's probably what you would say to your best friend, right? So think about those two different words you would say. And then the lesson was that you really have to be your best friend.

Catherine: Mm exactly. Be your best friend. Right? You wouldn't say those things to others. Why should you say it to yourself?

Yuko: Right? And so we were told that you have to have your mentor inside you that's kind of watching you. And if you catch those self-critical moments, just take a deep breath, and then just let go of all these criticisms and you just focus on what's next. And I think those skills are important for females who are really struggling. And if you're in a leading position, it's just your job to make a decision, right? And it's inevitable that your decision would get criticised later. Nobody would be able to see the future. 

So sometimes it's just that you have to make a decision to move things forward, otherwise things wouldn't get solved. So it's your job to make a decision, but then what if it goes wrong? And if you just cannot take that risk, you can't be in a leadership position. So you have to be prepared to get these moments that you felt you might have made a mistake, and how you recover from it is a really important part of your role.

And I think this one, it's both for female leaders as well as male leaders, but I was told that male leaders tend to think that things went wrong because of external factors and not because you didn't see anything. It's more like female leaders tend to kind of internalise that.

Catherine: That's very interesting, isn't it? Yeah. How about some tips then for people to succeed like you are at working in-house as a lawyer? What sort of tips might you have? Have you got, for example, three top tips for people or things actually to avoid as well? Some pitfalls to avoid?

Yuko: My first thing is that, you would be far better off if you pick the topic that really interests you. Even though it's a great company, if the things you're working on aren't very interesting to you, it's not as exciting. So first thing I would say is to follow your passion if possible. 

I was advised by my friend, a lawyer in the US. She also moved from a law firm partner to an in-house role, and she was very successful. So I sought her advice. She said, You need to wait for the right job, right? It's not that every job is available any time, so you have to take a year or two to really get the right one. And until that, until you find it, you somehow need to survive at the law firm, but you just need to get the right one.

That was her advice. Looking back, I think she was right. 

The other thing is, I know this could be a bit hard, but if you can, I think it's really important to see the people that you work with, because the same company and the same type of role, your day to day would be very different. The day to day would be influenced by the people you work with and the culture that the company has. So one of the things that I'm really, really mindful of when I hire people is really their culture or their mindset. And even if I found a super talented lawyer, if I don't like the culture that person has, I would never hire that person.

So I cannot emphasise more that in order for you to be happy, you have to be in a happy team. I look at a lot of people that come and go in the company, Google or anywhere else, and I would say half of the reason, half of the people leave the company because they don't like their manager or the team or people.

It's not about the job. It's more like the people, right? This is sometimes hard to know before you join the team, but that is important in my opinion.

Catherine: Hmm, very interesting. And when you say culture there, do you mean their culture? So things that they believe in or their values or what they say to you when you're interviewing them, that gives you that idea of where they are and how they will sit in your team, and whether you can sort of mesh together or not?

Is that what you mean by culture?

Yuko: There is one thing that I particularly look for, which is when you make a mistake, can you be open and candid? For example, don't do the dirty play of turning around and pointing at other people for mistakes and you kind of escape. There are people like that. And I wouldn't blame those people because probably they're brought up in such a culture, right?

Whatever the mistake you're made, you're not allowed to make mistakes and therefore you have to work really hard to escape from the responsibility type of environment.

You quickly develop the skills. And there are all sorts of arts to do that. I know. But if you get one person like that in your team and that person starts to play that game, then it ruins the entire culture because if you get one person starting to play that, everybody starts to do the same.

Catherine: Right.

Yuko: Yeah. So when I interview people, I see how open they are about the mistakes that are made in the past or some learnings out of it. And interestingly, some people turn their success story into a failure. When I, for example, ask in an interview, What was a mistake you made in the past?

One person said to me, for example, looking back, my biggest mistake was I studied so hard before the bar, I didn't even meet one person because I was so busy preparing for the bar, and so that upset a lot of people. And it's not, he's not really telling a mistake, right?

He's just kind of appealing in a very different way, how hard I worked on the bar.

Catherine: Mm, I see what you're saying. 

Yuko: Yeah. 

Catherine: Yeah. Right. He's not actually saying it was a mistake. He's saying, Look how hard I work. You should understand that I work so hard that I don't even meet with other people. I exclude everything else in order to focus on the job that you would give me. That's what he's trying to persuade you with perhaps.

Yuko: Right, Right, right. Or some people, even though I'm asking about a mistake, they say, I came very close to making a mistake, but at the very end, of course, I'm so smart, I could catch all these and I fixed everything. So at the end, it wasn't really a mistake, but it was, I came very close. Those people, I mean, if you live for 25 years, or 30 years, or even 40 years, how come you cannot make any mistakes at all?

So I'm not really asking about what exactly was the mistake or what exactly was the learning, I'm more looking at how open they are about their mistakes. And some people can tell a very convincing heartfelt story about the things that they experience and how they kind of try hard to learn from it.

So I tend to like those people who are really open and candid because those are the people that are really easy to work with. And when something happens, I can have a really straightforward, open question, open conversation about what went wrong, for example, and how we could do better.

Google would never punish people for making a mistake. I think that is one of the strengths that our company has, because if you are punished for making a mistake or something went wrong or not as planned, then you just can't take a chance.

Right? Taking a chance means that some percentage of the thing would go wrong. And if you are punished for doing that, you cannot be bold and innovative. Our focus is more like, okay, how can we fix it?

What can we learn from it, and how can we do better next time?

Catherine: Right. You're encouraging that and being more, not forgiving or understanding, but you're encouraging them to take that chance. And if it didn't work, learn from those bits and pieces of that problem that didn't work in the solution process. So that's what you're doing there, right?

Yuko: Right. And I think that's one of the reasons why our company is so successful, because in many Japanese organisations, it's not true, right? While you are in a certain position, if there is something that goes wrong, then you are out of the race. And that makes people more careful. They don't want to challenge new things.

Those are all because you're punished for it.

Catherine: My goodness. Well, let's head in then to the final super seven questions. It's a quick fire round where I ask every guest several questions to wind up the show. So I know you said to me before we started, and I said in the introduction that you visited 20 countries, but if you could live somewhere else in the world outside of Japan, where would it be?

Yuko: Hmm. That's a tough question. I would probably pick either California or Hawaii maybe.

Catherine: Hmm.

Yuko: Mmm.

Catherine: That's nice. Is that for the culture or the kind of place that it is? Relaxed, easy going, nice weather.

Yuko: Yeah. Nice weather. Obviously I know the language and kind of the culture. And there are a lot of natural places or scenery nearby to relax, so maybe those are the factors. 

Catherine: Okay. Second question is, can you share with me a book that you are reading or have read, or a podcast you've been listening to that you would recommend?

Yuko: The book that I recently read, but it's in Japanese, it's called Kokoro no mōten, or it's a blind spot of your mind in English. It's written by a Japanese psychologist or psychology scientist. And it was very interesting. It's a really light book. It has like 80 questions.

So it says like, Okay, think about this question and you're given this and this, what would you say? And then there's like two or three pages of explanation about how your brain works and your brain, all our human brains have some tendencies. And it's kind of interesting. One of the things I've found interesting, for example, is that people who donated a lot and did a lot of good things tend to do a bit of a bad thing later.

Catherine: Hmm.

Yuko: Interesting, isn't it?

Catherine: Hmm. Very. 

Yuko: Yeah, very interesting. But it's a statistic actually. And so what I got out of it is that, okay, so a human being is a mix of good and bad. It's interesting that the truth is that a person is not black and white. You know, it's kind of mixture of both. And if you're forced to be only white, you just can't stand with it. And I think it's very interesting to keep you sane or strike the right balance.

Like when you're raising your kids and, you know, a lot of kids when, who, for preparing for the exam, you have to be all white and studying all day, you just can't be like that, right? You have to have some break doing games or looking at silly movies or YouTube videos or whatnot to relax yourself, to strike a right balance.

So, you know, there are so many other interesting statistics and it's all based on, research and data to explain how your brain works. And I found it very interesting.

Catherine: Wow. It sounds amazing. I wonder if there's a similar book in English or if it will eventually be translated, but you've got me thinking. Yeah, sounds very interesting. So talking of books though, Yuko, if you were going to write a book tomorrow or in the next, by the end of the year, what would you, no, I'm not putting pressure on you.

What just incidentally, if you were going to write a book, what would you write it about?

Yuko: I don't think, I'm not yet ready to write any law and technology type of book again. 

Catherine: Could be a cookbook with your son. How to cook with Kids?

Yuko: Yeah, that'd be fun.

Catherine: Write a fun book like that, sounds like that would be lots of fun to me.

Yuko: Yeah. Or I could kind of write an essay about all these funny moments in the family. Yeah. It was like, yeah, I know that moment and what I did well, what I didn't do well. I wish I could have done differently in a whole funny way. That could be something. 

Catherine: That sounds like fun. I'm sure that's the kind of essay or collection of essays that your library teacher would really love to hear. Okay, what's something about you that a lot of people do not know?

Yuko: So maybe that I'm so deep into people's psychology is something that I don't really openly talk about. I don't know why I got into this, but for example, when you start to realise that it's everywhere. I mean, marketing is all based on people's psychology. If you know how our brain and our memory works and how heavily we rely on people's testimony in all the criminal procedures and how inaccurate our memories are. It's almost shocking to us. And so when you start to see all that, it's just so interesting and it would have some impact on how we should design our products. If you think about our work, I start to see a lot of commonalities between nurturing your team members and raising your kids.

And I wouldn't claim I'm the best in the world because knowing one theory and being able to follow that is a different story, but I just find it very interesting.

Catherine: I get that. And one last question. What kind of advice would you give to the younger version of yourself? Maybe that one that was thinking about princesses or the one a little bit older than that. What kind of advice would you give to your younger Yuko san?

Yuko: I would say you really should follow your instinct and don't think too much when making a big decision, because I somehow feel like choosing a job or getting married to someone, or deciding what you do, you really have to enjoy that. And it would never come from the tricks of pros and cons, it's more like a feeling and not really coming from your brain.

So there were times that I was so bound by what I should do and what I shouldn't do. And to some extent it really helped me get to where I am because that's how I worked so hard. I studied so hard, but at the same time, looking back, I wish I could be a bit more relaxed and enjoy every moment of the way.

I know it's kind of tricky because if you party too much, you won't study. So it's the right balance to make, but especially I cannot emphasise more, if you have like a really fancy, prestigious place with a really high salary, but somehow, you know in your instinct that you wouldn't enjoy every day, then I really don't recommend going there, or at least you should get out of it a few years later.

Catherine: So following your instinct. Wow. Okay Yuko, that's great. Great advice to yourself and I think anyone else listening today will take that on board. Thank you so much for coming on Lawyer on Air, and my goodness, it's been such a pleasure to speak with you and to hear you. I've been stopping and listening to you today as you've meandered through your wonderful journey of your career, your progression, your decision making.

All those people who helped you along the way, to direct you or give you pointers and told you stories that would keep you balanced and that you would remember and think about later. It's just been incredible listening to you, and I really thank you for taking time to share your wonderful story.

Yuko: Yeah. Thank you Catherine. So yeah, I really enjoy that too. And sorry, maybe the other thing I wanted to tell people is that just don't try to figure things out yourselves, but seek out for advice with people because as you said, I talked with a lot of people and I was so helped by a lot of people's wisdom and their experience.

So I would love to do the same for younger lawyers, but you know, it's always just very helpful to talk with others.

Catherine: I agree. I agree. You don't always have all the information or knowledge and you don't have to take everything on, that someone tells you. You can just soak up the information, and put it in there in the sieve as you sift through and find the information that's really gonna work for you. That's so good. 

So how can listeners connect with you, Yuko? What's the best way? Can they do that on LinkedIn or other social media? What's easiest for you? Maybe your email address, but up to you.

Yuko: Yeah, maybe you can send me a LinkedIn message and I have to warn you, I'm not really super active on that platform, so maybe my answers would be delayed, but I'll get back to you.

Catherine: We know that you answer things a bit later in the stage. You've already told us that. Well, that's great. We'll put your LinkedIn details in the show notes. So we'll finish up there and thank you again so much for your courage to come on, and I hope it inspires other people to think about coming on and telling their story as well.

And for my listeners, I hope that they will also subscribe to Lawyer on Air and drop us a review when they can. It's really great to have that. We've got people who do that, write on Apple podcasts. They also send out reviews on Google Podcasts. They do all sorts of things for us, and it's really great to hear them talk about us.

And so most people can, or more people can get to know about the show and listen in and get some tips as well. So do go ahead and share this episode everyone, enjoy it. Send it to someone who you think would enjoy getting some information out of it and be inspired to live a wonderful lawyer, extraordinaire life.

That's all from me. See you on the next episode. Cheers, kampai and bye for now.

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