A full transcript follows.

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Have you ever wondered if it was too late to do that law firm experience, to go in-house or to law work in a completely different area? It is never too late to fill a gap in your CV, as my guest Chika Hirata shows us in this episode! Chika is mentor to up and coming professionals, and loves to give back, just as she was mentored by one of our most popular episode guests, Lawyer Extraordinaire, Royanne Doi. 

If you enjoyed this episode and it inspired you in some way, we’d love to hear about it and know your biggest takeaway. Head over to Apple Podcasts to leave a review and we’d love it if you would leave us a message here!

In this episode you’ll hear:

• How Chika’s mentor was instrumental in helping her find her way to her legal career

• Why it’s best to develop your career through the method that works for you: OJT or theoretical study

• How identifying gaps in your CV can help you to strategically collate the experience to get senior roles

• What is ethics and compliance work really like and what kind of people thrive in ethics and compliance roles

• Her favourite books and other fun facts 

About Chika

Chika joined Takeda in June 2018 and is currently the Head of Japan/JPBU Ethics & Compliance.  She is in charge of strategic planning and leading global initiatives for global Takeda as a member of the Global Ethics & Compliance Leadership Team.  Chika leads and supervises various initiatives related to Ethics and Compliance, Data Privacy and Enterprise Risk Management at Japan Pharma Business Unit.  She also works closely with senior leaders in Japan to embed corporate values and culture in daily business activities with higher ethical standards.  

Chika has worked at various global financial institutions, in private practice as a lawyer, and a member of senior management teams.  She has extensive and rich experience in corporate governance, change management, team building and talent development in multicultural environments.  Throughout her career, she has committed herself to being a disrupter regarding Diversity, Equity & Inclusion in the context of Japanese corporate culture, and is passionate about mentoring and coaching talents from diverse backgrounds.  Prior to joining Takeda, she was responsible for Corporate Secretariat and Legal Affairs as Statutory Executive Officer, SVP & Chief Legal Officer at MetLife Insurance in Japan.

Chika is admitted to practice in the State of New York.

Connect with Chika

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chika-hirata-3058696/ 

Links

Brasserie Va-tout https://brasserievatout.jp/ 

Black Box Thinking https://www.amazon.co.jp/Black-Box-Thinking-Surprising-Success/dp/1473613779 

Connect with Catherine 

Linked In https://www.linkedin.com/in/oconnellcatherine/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lawyeronair

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/catherine.oconnell.148

Twitter: https://twitter.com/oconnelllawyer 

Transcript

Catherine: Hi, everyone. Welcome to another episode in the Lawyer on Air podcast. I'm the host of the show, Catherine O'Connell. Today I'm joined by Chika Hirata who is currently head of Japan, Japan pharma business unit, ethics and compliance at Takeda Pharmaceutical Company Limited. Chika joined Takeda four years ago in June, 2018.

She is in charge of strategic planning and leading global initiatives for global Takeda as a member of the global ethics and compliance leadership team. Chika leads and supervises various initiatives related to ethics and compliance, data privacy, and enterprise risk management at the Japan pharma business unit. Chika works closely with senior leaders in Japan to embed corporate values and culture into the daily business activities of the organisation, so that work is done with higher ethical standards. 

Chika has worked at various global financial institutions. And one of those was MetLife insurance in Japan, where she was nearly four years there and she was responsible for corporate secretariat and legal affairs as their statutory executive officer, SVP and chief legal officer.

And it was during those days at MetLife that I met Chika and we both served on the JICN, the Japan In-house Counsel Network board. Well, Chika has also worked at private practice at Shearman & Sterling, and she's been a member of senior management teams over the years as she is now. She has an extensive and rich experience in corporate governance, change management, team building and talent development in multicultural environments.

Throughout her career, she has been committed to be a disruptor regarding diversity equity and inclusion in the context of Japanese corporate culture. And she is also very passionate about mentoring and coaching talent from diverse backgrounds. Chika is admitted to practice in the State of New York and did her LLMs at Kyoto University and the University of Pennsylvania Carey Law School.

So I'm really, really pleased to bring you Chika Hirata as my guest today. Chika welcome to the show.

Chika: Thank you, Catherine. It's a pleasure to be on your show.

Catherine: Thanks so much. And today we're gonna talk about your career path, the influences you've had along the way, your current compliance and ethics role. And I'd really love it if you could, along the way, provide some tips and ideas for the next generation of in-house counsel or associates who are coming up the ranks behind you.

How does that sound?

Chika: Sounds terrific. And I hope I can be of any help.

Catherine: I'm sure you will. Well, we know that real conversations always contain an invitation. And so I'm really thankful for you accepting my invitation to come on the show and tell us about yourself. Amazing things happen when people really get to talk to each other. So I'm glad we can create this space for people to hear what you have to say.

And I hope that the conversation will be inspirational. So as always Chika I always start with the first question, which is, if we were gonna be meeting up in person, do you have a favourite wine bar or cafe or restaurant that you like to go to, and what would be your choice off the menu?

Chika: Oh, thank you, Catherine. It just reminds me of the days we had dinner and drinks in Roppongi.

Catherine: For the JICN right?

Chika: For the JICN.

Catherine: Every month, right? Every month in those good old days we could get together. Oh yes. So where would you go? Any of those places or somewhere new?

Chika: Well, I think that might be a really good place too. I forgot the name of the restaurant, but that was our regular meetup and with a glass of wine we talked about a lot of things in common. So that will be my place to go. And also, maybe just pizza and start with a spumante.

Catherine: Oh, very nice. That sounds good. And especially this kind of weather, it's rather warm right now in Japan. Brilliant. Thank you. We'll do that. I know the one you mean. It's a French cafe down the end of Roppongi towards Tokyo tower. Maybe by the end of today, I'll remember it. And we can put it into the show notes.

So before we go into your career path, Chika, I always ask what you can remember from your childhood. Do you remember what you wanted to be as a child?

Chika: When I was a child, I wanted to be an astronaut.

Catherine: Oh, that's awesome. Really?

Chika: Oh, yes. Because back in those days, my hero was basically Carl Sagan and I was really thinking about taking physics and flying to space one day. So I was crazy about it. Yep. Astronaut definitely.

Catherine: Wow. What happened then? Why did you decide to become a lawyer?  That's interesting. The connection. Is there a connection there?

Chika: Well, one thing is my physics sucks.

Catherine: You did actually end up doing, you did do physics in the end?

Chika: I was a science student till high school. And then I realised, Hmm, my physics is not as good as other subjects.

Catherine: Right.

Chika: That’s not the only reason I chose to be a lawyer. But the thing is, I was not good enough to pursue that career. I think astronaut is, now the scope of the people who can apply there gets bigger, wider, and it's an accessible job now.

But back then, I think it was a very selected pool of candidates.

Catherine: Wow. How amazing. So aside from physics, what did draw you into law? Because in Japan, for example, a lot of people study law and never become lawyers. So what was it for you that got you going into the law then?

Chika: Well, as you just explained, a lot of people take law as a bachelor degree in Japan but still don't choose the path to become a lawyer. And I was definitely one of them and I took the law degree. I also got the master of law degree and then started working and by accidentally meeting a very good mentor and my supervisor, she persuaded me to take another law degree to become a lawyer.

So it was more, not my choice, but actually I was persuaded to be a lawyer.

Catherine: So who was that mentor? Why was the extra law degree necessary?

Chika: I was advised to take a law degree in the US, and who, it was Royanne Doi. I'm pretty sure she was on the podcast too.

Catherine: She was. Oh, Royanne. Oh my goodness. So she suggested you should head off to the US and do another degree over there?

Chika: Exactly. And if you have a law degree in Japan, it only takes one year in the states, and then you can sit on the New York bar and take the exam.

Catherine: That is interesting. Isn't it? So is that, that's still the case now that if you have your degree here, you can go and do the one year in the US? 

Chika: I think so. Yes.

Catherine: That is interesting. And what do you think she thought or saw and knew to suggest that?

Chika: Well, she definitely wanted me to come back as the biggest reason I think, but also, I hope she saw some talent in me. I was between the MBA and LLM actually back then when I chose to go to the states. So I was still hesitating and then Royanne actually persuaded me. It’s only one year MBA versus MBA it's two years. It's shorter. And then we can also arrange some position in the Boston headquarters. Back then I was working in a US company, which has a headquarters in Boston.

Catherine: Oh, right. Is that the same company Royanne was in?

Chika: Exactly.

Catherine: State Street. 

Chika: Yes. 

Catherine: Yes. Yes. That takes me back. I think that's when I first met Royanne. She was at State Street and she blew me away how amazing she was then. So isn't it strange or interesting or just absolutely lovely that we're all still connected now from those days back, you know, 20 odd years ago, it's incredible.

Chika: It's incredible. And I was very blessed to have so many great mentors, and peers, and friends who can give me advice. So back then, I remember I was still a young kid and I talked to a lot of people and Royanne, and also Royanne’s and my supervisor, Sharon Morin, who was based in Boston. They were both fantastic mentors for me.

Catherine: Isn't that significant? Right. And is that also part of why you are now somebody who actively seeks out to coach and mentor other people?

Chika: I think so. The legacy needs to be carried on and it's basically like, how do you say, pay it forward.

Catherine: Yeah, that's it. 

Wow. So you went to the states and you did your one year, but even on that, you were on the edge there to think of something else. But once you got into the LLM, then in the US, was that something that you thought this is it, I really do love law and this is what I wanna do?

Chika: I'm hesitating to say that.

Catherine: Yeah, well that's okay. Because I also think, we may do something, but it doesn't actually click with us until later that we decide that actually what we did then was right. Sometimes even when we're in the process of doing it, we don't always think it's the right thing.

Tell us more about that then.

Chika: Yes. So even before I went to the states, when I was studying in Japan, I got the law degree, but as you may know, in Japan you can still take lots of courses in political science and still get the law degree. So it becomes the bachelor of law. So I was one of these students when I was in college. But in the states, the law school also had a variety of subjects you can study. And I probably felt more comfortable studying even corporate finance or some of the, um, helping out the startups as a small business. 

So some of the, I would say, sidebar subjects actually interested me more when I was in law school. And master of law, it's a master of law degree so it's different from the JD. And I can actually skip the basic subjects not like the regular JD student.

So it was easier for me to go with my instinct, I would say.

Catherine: Yeah, isn't that great? I mean, going with your instinct. And when you did that masters then, you could skip some of the basic ones. Are you talking about torts or criminal or whatever like that? Yeah. And so what did you then go with your instincts to do? What did you study?

Chika: I took a small business clinic, which was really fun. 

Catherine: That's interesting.

Chika: I had so much fun helping out the real people.

Catherine: Right.

Chika: In the local community. And then I think I took a couple of courses at the business school because I went to Penn and there is this famous Wharton school.

So I did take a couple of courses at Wharton.

Catherine: I wondered about that. You did take advantage of Wharton school at the same time. How interesting. Well, you've sort of got that leaning then towards business, which sort of takes away the question I was going to ask you about going straight into an in-house position or going back to, shall we say, state street rather than, you know, what is now common of course, to go into in-house directly from getting your qualifications, but you know, and lots of newly minted JDs do that, but at your time, perhaps more people were going to law firm positions rather than in-house.

So aside from Royanne saying, come on back to this place, why did you decide that going back to an in-house team or entering an in-house team was the right path rather than a law firm at that stage?

Chika: Well, I still didn't see the benefit to go to a private practice law firm back then. Because, working as an in-house legal counsel, I believe I was pretty good. And I could understand what the lawyers were saying. So for me, the path was pretty clear, to go back to the in-house position and also, still going up, you know, climbing up the ladder as an in-house lawyer. I think the moment I felt I needed the law firm background happened a bit later in my career stage.

Catherine: Yeah. And we'll come to that. I just wonder why or how it could be useful for people to know that who are listening, that, you know, somehow within you, you knew that in-house was the right path for you. And you'd done a lot of the business topics when you were at Penn, but is there something that you should trust your gut perhaps in deciding what to do?

Or could it be different for other people that perhaps are being drawn to private practice is the right way, is it, is there no set way is what I'm trying to ask you that you can choose whichever.

Chika: Hmm.

Catherine: What do you think?

Chika: I think it really depends on the person's learning curve and how you learn the real stuff. Cuz some people are better with the OJT, some people might be better at reading the book, understanding the logic and then start the real life. So I think we all have a path of the learning curve and you need to know how effectively you can learn new things.

And for me, I think it was easier for me to do the OJT and then go back a little bit to the logical path, logical learning, but normally I'm more of the OJT person, and develop myself quicker.

Catherine: Right. So OJT is on the job training, right? So you did work then in the US office and then come back to Japan. Did you do your stint in Boston?

Chika: It was in Boston. Yes. State Street headquarters is in Boston. So I worked in the Boston headquarters for almost four years.

Catherine: Wow. That's a long time. Isn't it?

Chika: That's a long time. Yes. Because the position which I got in Boston was actually, it was a one year trainee position. So I was supposed to come back to Japan after a year. And that's the longest my boss could wait.

Catherine: We’re laughing and she's gonna be listening to this later, but that's all good. That's all good. Wow. Yeah. So you were keeping her waiting and you did the one year. How did you manage that? Did you still do some work with Japan or basically commit yourself to the Boston side of the practice?

Chika: Well, the interesting thing is I was probably the first foreigner who was working in the subsidiary in coming to the Boston headquarters.

Catherine: Oh, okay. First foreigner. Wow.

Chika: Yes. So cuz we had like 150 lawyers working in the US headquarters. But I was pretty much the only Asian lawyer in the team and also nobody came from the subsidiary to Boston.

So, I was the first case. So the thing is there was no fixed way to train such a lawyer category. And I had to jump on whatever I was asked to do. So not only Japan stuff, but also if something related to Japan comes, I was assigned to this stuff, but outside of, you know, the Japan matters, I also had to work on it.

Catherine: So, how did you manage that not coming back to Japan and staying in the US? I mean, that's quite a big thing, right? When you've gone on the presumption of getting your LLM then coming back, and you didn't, how did you manage that?

Chika: Well, I had great support from Royanne first, because we had a really good candid conversation when the first year was about to end because I had to renew my visa or fly back to Japan. I had two choices. I renewed my visa to, I think it was L1 back then. So it was, it's like the H! visa and became localised as a US employee. 

Catherine: That's quite significant, isn’t it? 

Chika: It was a tough negotiation. And also, I'm really thankful for State Street to do that because I was a guest basically as a trainee. 

Catherine: Mm. 

Chika: Now they got the FTE and then hired me officially. So I was a very lucky case I believe.

Catherine: I think perhaps even more than lucky, you must have proven yourself. They wouldn't do that for anybody. And so there must have been, without you trying not to be humble, it sounds like there was some strength there with what you were doing and they wanted to have you there for longer. And then on the side of, you know, Royanne back here, she obviously has to make some adjustments in her area as well, but isn't that amazing how you can do that?

Whereas you may think you're strictly confined to doing one certain path. What you are showing is, if you have this aptitude, people may actually be quite flexible in where and how you do your work, as long as it's going to be beneficial for you and also for the company at some point, right?

Chika: Yeah, exactly. I mean, I'm not proud of it, but I was probably not that active, proactive and enthusiastic about let's say searching my path, career path and persuading people to let me do that. It was more of a given role and path I would say. And thanks to these incredible mentors, they really led me well. That's how I would phrase it.

Catherine: Wow. That is incredible. And then you did just four years in the US, but then you did actually come back to Japan. How was that? Was it different even though you're in the same company in two different countries, did it make a difference for you?

Chika: I think the real career path actually started around there. So when you hit the fourth year, the next hurdle is okay, are you gonna take the green card or not? And I had to really think about it. Am I gonna live in this country forever or for a while? Or am I still trying to get back to Japan?

So I was thinking about that. And then a couple of conclusions, options I had was yes, I can work a little bit longer, but maybe not permanently. Then permanently at State Street too, because I was also hitting the ceiling back then working as one of the counsels. And then I realised I might not be able to become the head of legal here.

Catherine: Mm.

Chika: And that was becoming one dream for me.

And if I need to be the head of legal, I need something on my CV which turned out to be the private practice.

Catherine: Ah, okay. That's interesting.

Chika: Yes. So year four, I was thinking how to actually work on my career for the first time pretty much in my life, by myself.

And then I realised I needed private practice experience.

Catherine: Why would private practice be necessary for head of legal?

Chika: Well, I was actually checking, observing some of the head of legals around me, and then everybody went to private practice and work there for at least three to five years. And then I realised, huh, I do need a private practice to be a manager slash head of legal.

Catherine: Hmm.

Chika: So I think that was some of the takeaways I got from my peers, colleagues back then. 

Catherine: Yeah, it's interesting. But I think to be that head of legal, you also have to have done what you were doing in the US working in-house and in Japan, because one of the things that I think is important is, when you're head of legal is that you need to manage outside counsel, for example. And if you've been one yourself, you've been an in-house legal counsel, then you can do that effectively.

So what do you think about that? You think that too?

Chika: Yes, it's true because I know how to use lawyers. And, as a client side, I know how they work, how they can work under the instructions from the in-house counsel. So I had that experience and one thing I realised was I need to be on the other side too. How to work closely with the in-house counsel and having both experiences actually really helped in the end.

Especially now in my position, I feel like, yes, the private practice experience, not the most exciting one for me, but still it was necessary.

Catherine: But I like that you're saying this dovetailing of both, one is not better than the other. They both are complementary. And you, what you were also saying and showing by your path is that either can be done at different times, depending as you said, your motivations or timing in your career, something like a green card application or knowing you want to do that next step of Head of Legal, what do you need to do to get there?

That's quite strategic in your case.

Chika: It turned out to be.

Catherine: Yeah.

Chika: Back then I was probably thinking like, huh, what's missing in my CV. Huh? It's a private practice experience.

Catherine: How interesting.

Chika: So it happened like that. And I was lucky enough to get a job in a private practice. So what I did in the States was I resigned from State Street and moved to the private practice.

Catherine: So you resigned State Street, moved to private practice, sounds very efficient, but how do you actually prepare to move back or move into your very first law firm role?

Chika: Well, back then I didn't have to try that much. It was still before Lehman and the business was still booming. And one thing I tried to do was because I was admitted in New York, I was thinking of moving to New York. But the thing is I think the business in New York was slowly declining and they needed more people in Tokyo.

So they sent me back to Tokyo as an expat and I started working in Tokyo as a private practice lawyer.

Catherine: Ah, I see. So you didn't, did you end up actually working in the US as well? Or just back here?

Chika: Just back here, because after that Lehman happened.

Catherine: Right. So actually quite fortunate.

Chika: I think it was fortunate. Actually, if I stayed in State Street, I don't know what would have happened. The whole team I worked with was also shut down.

It turned out to be the right choice for me to move to the private practice back then the Tokyo business was still okay.

Or even during the difficult time we lawyers, private practice lawyers always have a job and sometimes more job than usual. So, it was the right choice if I look back.

Catherine: Okay. So any other things there that work really well for you that you could think may help other people or pitfalls to avoid in that sort of similar situation? Is there something you think, ah, I could have done that better? Or would you repeat that sort of method? It sounds like it fell into place pretty nicely, but anything there that might be helpful for others.

Chika: Yes. If I look back, I still think the first working experience in the law firm during the first three years would be more efficient, let's say generally speaking. 

Catherine: Why do you think that?

Chika: Well, because you will know your limit, your physical limit and your brain limit, the limit in your thinking and the exhaustion in your brain. Because working in private practice, as we all know, it's tough and it will pretty much put you to the limit. And it's very important to have that three years experience at least three years, I would say, at some time in your life and then, you know, the worst case physically and mentally. And let's say psychologically.

Catherine: Mmm.

Chika: You can start from there. Nothing is worse than the private practice experience sometimes. Right?

Catherine: Yeah, it's a tough experience. I also think if you're thinking too, anyone who's thinking about coming to Japan to work in private practice, they need to have private practice experience. Don't they? To get the “gaiben”, the foreign registered attorney. So there's also that part, but I really like how you've really laid it out that you do need that physical and brain limit experience of being in a law firm.

It does set you up for what you might like or not like, right. If you haven't done it.

Chika: You'd never know.

Catherine: You don’t know.

Chika: Exactly. Yes. I think it's good to experience and see whether it fits you or not. And then you can choose the path. In-house definitely needs a different skill set. It's totally different from private practice. But one thing I see in, I wouldn't say common, but, which will help you from your private practice experience is, you know the bottom of you and you know the limit of you.

Catherine: Mm.

Chika: And things can always be better than that.

Catherine: What kinds of skill sets are different for in-house legal counsel compared to private practice?

Chika: Well, for in-house definitely, you need to have a bigger picture understanding of the business and sometimes the dynamics of the organisations, also experiencing, observing and taking advantage of some of the interpersonal relationships, political relationships happening in the office to make things happen. It's a different skill set from private practice, it's more on really enriching yourself in your personality and demonstrating what kind of person you are in the corporation, and have everybody on board and make things happen. That's a different skill set from working solo. Even if you're working a big law firm, basically you're working solo or working closely with one partner.

So it's very different from private practice.

Catherine: Oh, very interesting. How about that point you made just then about observing and taking advantage of interpersonal relationships and being pretty political. How is that more so for in-house than it might be for private practice?

Chika: Yeah. Well, it may sound negative.

Catherine: It's just an interesting observation of what you said. So I'd like to have a little more info there, cuz it's a very interesting topic.

Chika: Yeah. So working as an in-house counsel, sometimes you might end up as just an advisor because people will knock on your door and then ask like, oh counsel, can I do this or not? Is there any legal limitation or not? But you need to ask questions to get the full picture, and then you might need to step outside of your counsel line to give the most effective advice to people.

And to do that, you might need to reach out to some other people who are not actually coming to your office, but still outside, or sometimes you need to bring it up the chain or bring it to the board or executive committee to have a proper discussion, discuss about the pro and cons of the deal or getting input, getting feedback.

And that's outside of scope if you're working in the private practice, but as an in-house counsel, you need to do that because you are working as one team, not only the legal, if business makes mistakes, you also get the cut of it. So, you need to have this really good mindset about working in one organisation.

Catherine: I think that's really helpful. What then drove you? Is that what helped drive you then back to your in-house role? Cause you left the law firm and you went back to that.

Chika: Mm, I think so. It's because, and here's what's worked for me, I started off as an in-house counsel and when I started working at State Street, I had the privilege to sit on the board meeting, executive committee meeting at the very early stage. And I could see how the CEO thinks, how the CCO thinks, how the COO thinks.

So I could work closely with these executive people and saw the big picture at the first place. So my learning started from there. How do we make things happen? Not the lawyers are gonna do it or not the business are gonna do it, how together we can make it happen in the organisation. So that was my experience and it was easier for me actually, to go back to the in-house because the private practice experience actually limited myself not to think about it. Because sometimes you do the M&A deal. You don't know whether that deal went through or not. because when you close the deal it's over, but sometimes the post M&A deal maybe didn't go well, but it's none of your business because you're not retained anymore.

Catherine: And you're onto the next job.

Chika: Exactly.

Catherine: Very interesting. I think you've got a point there about that so-called seat at the table. And you've talked about that, being on the board, being on the executive committee and seeing how the CEO thinks, and the COO and those other C C-suites, that is so critical. 

Because if I reflect on my in-house experience too, it wasn't until I became the lawyer that was head of legal that could see that, be on the board and see the big picture, that I understood. Oh, this is why we do these things. This is why I did those things in the past. But if you don't have that seat, it's very hard to see any of that.

And you do kind of work in a little group by yourself rather than knowing the big picture.

Chika: Yeah, it's a good point because I had the privilege of sitting there when I was young, but sometimes you never know until you actually get the seat at the table and it's sometimes too late. So I did learn more when I was at the executive committee at MetLife, cuz I was the CLO, I was the head of legal and I had my legal responsibility to think about the whole organisation and make things happen in the company, not only in my legal department. 

So definitely you learn more if you have the position at the higher stage, but I think it's an absolutely fantastic experience for young people or less experienced people to even observe these business meetings, the top executive business meetings. And you learn so much from these processes of decision making or discussions.

Catherine: Right. And we sort of need that general counsel legal head to invite us to come and observe. Right. And to make it possible for us, get the permissions that are needed to sit in on those meetings, because that will set the horizons so much broader that we can see those things, right.

Chika: Oh, yeah, definitely. Sometimes you can even do the corporate secretary role cause some people might think it's a boring job, but not really. I mean, you sit in these board meetings and you take notes, you gather the feedback, and takeaways, action items. Unless you understand the business, you won't be able to even write a sentence.

Catherine: Mm, good point. You know, some people may think the most boring job is actually very, very boring, but it's so critical. Isn't it? Those sorts of positions. To know what was the most important points from the meeting. Know what the next steps are that you record in the minutes. All of those things are really important points there Chika. 

It also interests me too when you talk about law firm lawyers having a sort of snapshot of one repetitive project they might do for their clients and not seeing that continuity, beyond the finish of the project. And in a way, you know, they're sort of going deeper and narrower with the expertise, but I wonder now with your current role where you are head of ethics and compliance, if in a similar kind of way, you've actually now yourself gone deeper and narrower with your expertise into compliance and ethics in a way that resembles a specialist in a law firm.

What do you think about that?

Chika: Well, it's an interesting question cause that's what I thought before I took this position.

Catherine: Ah, so you've really niched down into this specialist area, haven't you?

Chika: That's what I thought, but it turned out to be not the case. 

But the thing is, well, when I took the head of the ethics and compliance position that was also one thing missing on my CV. I was the head of legal, chief legal officer, general counsel, and always, I mean, it depends on the company, but the companies I worked with always had the legal department and compliance department separately.

So when I was the head of legal, when I was a general counsel, I didn't have the compliance function under me. I was a pure legal person. And when I looked at my CV, I felt like, huh, I never really, I worked closely with compliance, but I never really managed the compliance team. And these days, some companies still keep the separate departments, but sometimes they just combine it altogether.

So let's say the general counsel needs to oversee the legal function and the compliance function. That's sometimes the case. And I just realised maybe it is time I need to explore compliance work. That was always been a missing piece on my CV because I actually felt more interested in legal work.

Catherine: Mm seems rather strategic as well. You've looked at what you have done and where you could probably expand on filling in some other areas to, you know, flesh yourself out a little bit more and have broader capabilities. So what are you doing now there in this head of Japan for ethics and compliance in Japan, what is that role?

And what parts of your role do you really enjoy too?

Chika: Well, ethics and compliance is really working on some of the basics of compliance, so laws and regulatory issues, but on top of that, it cultivates the ethical culture of the company. So how can we as a specialist advisor make it happen in the organisation? So it's rather like a philosophical question.

But we have this corporate value at the bottom, and then we try to create action plans, events, initiatives, based on these corporate values to make people believe and act based on the corporate value and higher ethical standard. So what I found is that it's actually very fascinating. It's not only like, you know, you can do it or not, but we are actually talking a lot about whether we should do it or shouldn't do it.

And that's really a high ethical, professionally ethical question. And there's no, yes and no answer for that. So that's what I'm doing these days. And leading the team of ethics and compliance, not only the compliance, but the ethical part really energises me. And I think it's a very new area too. So it's totally different from, again, a transactional lawyer, because if you are a transactional lawyer, you will search for an answer.

But for the ethical part, sometimes you don't have the answer or most of the time you don't have the answer and you also need people to realise maybe we don't have an answer, but what's the right decision we should make at this point.

Catherine: And is that what's fascinating and energising for you, that point where people are making that direction of their decisions?

Chika: I think so because we use ethical decision making quite a lot in my current job. And it's not only us. It's not like we advise, oh, here you go, here's the ethical decision you should make. It's actually asking questions and having the discussion and making people realise based on what kind of facts, here's the best ethical decision making we can make. And because it's a pharmaceutical company, we are in the pharma business, ethical decision making is, I would say it's the ultimate question. And it's a very important thing, cuz we deal with healthcare. We deal with life, quality of life.

Catherine: Exactly. And so when you are saying making people, you are not telling them what to do. What I'm hearing is that you are delivering a set of fact cases or examples, and they are coming to that realisation themselves. So that's how they're being made to understand the differences and make that ethical choice.

Chika: Yes, it comes with practice. And it comes with the real cases. So one thing I'm trying not to do is give the straightforward answer to these questions. Because I'm trained and because my team is trained, we can give probably a better answer to these fuzzy grey area questions.

But if we do that it doesn't really help the organisation to get stronger. What we need is really the first line. Everybody needs to think in that way, how we can make a better decision for the better business in the company. And it's like endless training, repetitious training for everyone.

Catherine: Yeah. Better decision. Not best but better.

Chika: Yeah. You never know. And it might turn out to be incorrect in the future, but that's also okay as long as you have a rich discussion based on the facts available at the time.

Catherine: Yeah. And there might be a better decision later, but at the time, this is the better one. 

Chika: Exactly. 

Catherine: Interesting. Now would you recommend this kind of area of work for people to think about compliance and ethics, ethics and compliance, as an addition to being a pure, shall we say, lawyer doing traditional, maybe transactional in house or law firm work?

What would you think about that? How is it a really good thing for say, law students, or people coming up the ranks to think about as an option for their career?

Chika: I strongly recommend at some point in your career, it's highly recommended to take that role, or also, maybe it's better for people who have certain experience and then move on to compliance because you need to really sit down and think by yourself too. And you need a rich experience, in yourself.

If you are a, I'm sorry to say, if you're a shallow person you're never not gonna get the right questions or right advice or supporting the business people's ethical decision. So you really need to know the business. And then you need to have long experiences really thinking, reading books or watching TV, watching news.

What's the right thing to do? So there are just so many things going on in this world right now. So even watching all the daily news, what will be the right thing to do, you always need to think about the philosophical question in your mind, and if you have that luxury or if you have that eagerness to know, it's the right position for you.

Catherine: Yeah, I think you're right. Everything that we see on TV is not simply just watching it, but thinking also behind the scenes, the ethical choices that are being made every single day in all kinds of ways. 

That's really very interesting. Thank you for that. I do also wanna talk to you about a couple of things you mentioned when you sent your bio through to me that I mentioned at the top of the show, and one of those is about being this DEI disruptor. I loved that explanation.

Chika: Disruptor?

Catherine: Yeah. Disruptor. And you said you're committed to that in the context of Japanese corporate culture. Does this tie into what you've just been speaking about around ethics? Or is this something different? What does this mean?

Chika: Well, I think it's linked to this ethical, so how should we actually really make it happen in this traditional Japanese culture company? And you start in your everyday life. And if you have a seat on the board, you have the obligation to speak up. So now the era, generation changes and you see more women in the executive committees or management committees, but still they're not equally treated. We see some inappropriate words here and there too. And it's always on the news. If you have a seat on the table, don't be silent, speak up. And that's one thing I always tell myself, it's awkward. It's a bit scary, but I keep saying it, even if everybody hates me.

Catherine: Mm.

Chika: And I make it also clear. I have an obligation to speak up as a minority at the table. I said that a couple of times in my career to everyone very clearly and framed the conversation.

Catherine: Brilliant. Anything else there on that?

Chika: DEI is sometimes still like female male in Japan. But as a legal counsel or someone in the compliance, ethics and compliance, you see more DEI here and there. And for example, even if you hire somebody with challenges, how would you position yourself in that hiring strategy? It's just the same as hiring females in the company. So I think you need to step out of your comfort zone as a legal counsel or compliance person, and talk to HR or talk to some of the hiring managers at the business and have that conversation. Sometimes they might not like you, but still it's very important to start that conversation in the company, because it never happens if you keep yourself silent on these topics.

So one thing I really encourage is we may have the privilege to know some of the laws and regulations around DEI or some of the movements happening in the US or some of the movements happening in Europe. Just familiarise yourself and try to find an ally in your company. And act now, otherwise it's never gonna happen.

Catherine: Mm. Yeah, exactly. Act now. If you do nothing, nothing will happen.

You gotta act. Wow. And I think it feels to me like through the early days of coaching and mentoring that you had, that you've been able to develop yourself in this way. So that's the other thing that you mentioned as well to me was your passionate nature about mentoring and coaching others.

And we talked a little bit about that before, but just a little bit more on that. How are you also, as well as doing what you just talked about with DEI, how are you doing that mentoring through your team and other people in a company?

Chika: So I normally put a max of people I can mentor. 

And let's say like, you know, 10 people at the same time. So, now I'm getting a little bit busier, so less than 10 people. But I have this policy of first come first serve pretty much copying what Royanne was doing, my supervisor, my mentor was doing, and put the limit on myself because it matters to my concentration and also focus too.

I cannot have like, you know, everybody, in my candidate line. So my mentees are 10 people tops, could be internal, could be external, outside of the company, inside of the company. And I try to have that variety. Also welcoming male mentees too, which I also have. And I set up a couple of goals or challenges they want to overcome in the next six months to one year and really work towards that.

Catherine: Oh, that's great. So you do focus on a certain area that they want to improve in, rather than doing lots of different things. I like that idea of doing the one thing that they want to achieve.

Chika: Yes.

Catherine: Great approach. Mm. 

Chika: Sometimes it becomes like, you know, chat moments and that's okay too, but I would rather categorise it as a coffee time or something. So when we talk about mentoring, we need to have a little more limited scope or focus scope, and the mentee needs to work towards it.

Catherine: How does someone find a coach or how do you become a mentee? How do you do that?

Chika: So, I have this first come first serve type of approach. I make it very clear to my colleagues or some of the, let's say like a younger generation who are looking for mentors. So if it happens in my company, I list myself, and also talk publicly about my availability and don't hesitate, but come to me.

And if you are in the first 10 people, yes, I'm happy to work with you. So, some of the framing and make it clear what you are expecting and how much work the other side needs to do, the mentee needs to do. That sometimes helps. They think about it and they're ready when they come. It's not like, okay, let's start a mentor mentee program.

By the way you are one of the mentees. So join this program.

Catherine: Mm.

Chika: It sometimes doesn't work that way or it doesn't last. I would say.

Catherine: Yeah. You're setting out what you expect, but also what you expect from them. And that's already basically agreed before you even start.

Chika: It's like an agreement, right?

Catherine: Mm. Well, somebody who's probably listening to all of this Chika, you and your role that you've said fascinates you and energises you, the work that you're doing around DEI and this mentor mentee situation.

If someone thinks I'd love to be doing a role like Chika's got in the future. What kinds of advice would you give them to do that? What sort of steps should they take or not take to concentrate on? It's a big question.

Chika: A big question. Yes.

One thing I would recommend and it's something I do, is list up all the dreams, all the ambitions, all the wanna be, on a paper or a computer screen. And if you have a list of like, you know, 10, 20 things, think about the priority too. Because life's short and also your hours are 24 hours tops and you need to sleep.

So you need to prioritise some of the stuff you are thinking in your mind because you might get distracted. So you really need to think about what's your priority, and also list up some of the daily priorities you have. It could be your family, your kids. or maybe some professional career you're looking for, but you cannot have it all. I'm sorry to say that, but also it's hopefully, it's a bit, let's say it gives you a little bit of comfort to hear this. 

It's okay not to have all, but really focus on the prioritisation. And what are the three things most important to you? You won't be able to have 10 of them, maybe less than 10 is the maximum you can go.

Catherine: Mm. 

Chika: And just so you know, put the backlog on the shelf and don't even think about it for a while. Until you focus on the important things in your life.

I think that's one thing I always try to do even for work. I mean, if you feel overwhelmed, if you have too many things to do, just list up everything, take some time, a couple minutes to write down, scribble, and delete the bottom three things and not think about it for now.

Catherine: Mm, I love that. Delete the bottom three.

Chika: Yeah.

Catherine: That's really empowering.

Chika: And it's okay. Still you're gonna achieve something right.

Catherine: Exactly. Well for you then what's your future dream for your role?

What's on your priority list?

Chika: On my priority list. So I am developing my successor right now. And at some point it could be at Takeda or it could be outside of Takeda. I also want to have a different role. I might wanna go back to the general counsel role and also as an executive officer role. And after that, just like you, Catherine, I might also wanna be the external board member of the company.

Catherine: That's a great thing and you can do them consecutively as well. So, I put that there for you as well. What a great idea to have those in your mind of what you want to do. And I think that's really important for people listening is that you do have your future thoughts there. And I believe as Chika being quite strategic, you will work towards those. Very interesting.

Chika: And one thing I try to keep in mind is we need to work on our career strategically and open up seats when you also become at some level, otherwise if you don't move, if you lose your passion to move forward, your team is gonna get stuck. They won't get the position or they won't get the one higher position.

Catherine: Yeah. So true. Open up the seats for others. 

Chika: Yes. That's the biggest contribution.

Catherine: Right. Oh gosh. Yeah. The biggest contribution, you said it. So unless you do that and you're holding your seat, no one else can get there. And I know a friend who had always wanted the GC role and because they knew that person ahead of them was holding onto that position, they couldn't get there. So they went elsewhere to find it. But you know, if you hold onto something, you're not going to be able to bring up or allow open spaces for the next gen to come up. 

Chika: Yeah, exactly. And having that experience, letting your team have that experience, that's the biggest legacy you can actually leave to your team. So, if you are leading a team, it's the ultimate question. You always need to think about it. When is the right time to give the biggest opportunity for your team to step up?

Catherine: Ooh. I love that Chika. Wow. You've brought it. Anything else you'd like to say here, maybe that we've missed out or that you'd like to reemphasize or something that we haven't covered?

Chika: Well, international experience is becoming a must for lawyers. So I think sometimes it's difficult when you have lots of loads on your shoulders. So really think about it if you are working as an in-house counsel and becoming a head of legal or manager at some point, really think about it.

It's not only the private practice experience, but also global international assignment experience that is becoming a must these days.

Catherine: Great idea. And hopefully you can even do it these days without actually going internationally, but doing it online, working with international teams. But I hear what you're saying. If it's possible to actually take a position in another country, that's a great thing to do.

Chika: Mm-hmm yeah.

Catherine: Brilliant. Well, I do always finish up with a wind up round of questions. So I'll get into those. Now, if you were to win 1 million yen tomorrow, what would you do with it?

Chika: Ah, it's 1 million, so I can't retire yet.

Catherine: No, not quite, not a million dollars. Just a million yen. Even a million dollars may not be enough to retire on. 

Chika: I would just use it for big travel.

Catherine: Right.

Chika: Yes. Somewhere. Yeah. Somewhere like Africa or hopefully everything calms down. But, in some of the amazing rural places in the continent.

Catherine: Got it. Wow. I expect you're a reader or you listen to podcasts. Is there any podcast or book that you are reading or have read recently that you would recommend?

Chika: Hmm. It might not be a recent book, but one thing, I use audible actually quite a lot. And black box thinking by Matthew Syed, that was good. That was really good.

Catherine: What was good about that?

Chika: Well, it compares the pharmaceutical industry, healthcare industry, to the airline industry. And when an aeroplane crashes, there is a black box and you look into the black box and really investigate what happened and you figure out the root cause of the problem.

Somehow it's not happening in healthcare in some areas. So it's a good comparison of the two industries and how we can embrace and encourage black box thinking. So open up the black box and really get to the root cause.

Catherine: What a great suggestion. I love it. Okay. I'm going to ask you then what your favourite saying is your “kotowaza” or something that you often say to others?

Chika: Well, you know what, I talk about how I wanted to be an astronaut and these days the space trip is getting easier. So I would say the George Eliot word, it's never too late to be what you might have been. Let's see.

Catherine: Watch this space. See, there we go. Play upon words. If you were going to write a book tomorrow, Chika, what would you write it about?

Chika: I think what I just spoke could be an interesting story because I didn't start off as a private practice lawyer. I started as an in-house lawyer then went to private practice and then went back to in-house. So it looks like some of the people find it very interesting. So maybe I'll write about that.

Catherine: And one more, a famous person or celebrity you would love to meet or have already met.

Chika: Have already met? Well, when I was on an island in Spain, I met Zidan, a famous football player who was sitting next to me in the airport, waiting for a plane to Milano.

Catherine: Did you know who he was?

Chika: Actually, I didn't know. I was in college and I mean, there were like, you know, five, six people asking for autographs.

And I was like, okay, what's going on with this guy? He was in jeans and he was in a white t-shirt and he probably sat next to me because I was reading a book and I was so focused. And then it turned out to be like, I think I saw that guy somewhere on TV. It turned out to be Zidan. So I got his signature too.

Catherine: Oh, good. There you go. How exciting. That's really interesting. Thank you so much. Well Chika, thank you for being such a bold and courageous person to come on the show. And it's been such a pleasure to speak with you. You've given us so many wonderful tips. I really have enjoyed this conversation.

Chika: I really enjoy speaking with you and thank you so much, Catherine, for having let me have this opportunity.

Catherine: I know that people are going to want to get in touch with you having heard you today. Can they contact you on LinkedIn or how's best to contact you?

Chika: Yes, I am on LinkedIn and it might be the easiest way to contact me. 

Catherine: Okay. We'll pop into the show notes along with all the other things you've mentioned and that restaurant that we still can't remember, so anyone interested in getting in touch can do that. That's wonderful. And so we will finish up here on this particular episode. So for my listeners, please do like this episode, tell us why you liked it.

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Thanks very much, everybody. Cheers, kampai, and bye for now.

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