A full transcript follows.

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Yuka Teraguchi never dreamed she would make partner in a law firm and also be able to start a family. My Lawyer Extraordinaire guest is now doing both and I’m so glad to share this episode with you so we can bring her story into the spotlight for a moment. You will be inspired as to how you can find that specialty that you can be great at and overcome the uncertainties of being promoted during your career. 

If you enjoyed this episode and it inspired you in some way, we’d love to hear about it and know your biggest takeaway. Head over to Apple Podcasts to leave a review and we’d love it if you would leave us a message here!

In this episode you’ll hear:

• How Yuka went from Computer Science major and “code monkey” to IP litigator

• Finding something she could be great at instead of just “fine at”

• The benefits of law clerking and litigation experience

• What happened when Yuka was put on the list for partner

• The advice that helped her decide to go ahead with having a family

• Her favourite books and other fun facts 

About Yuka

Yuka Teraguchi is Co-Head of Morrison & Foerster’s Tokyo Litigation Department and focuses her practice on representing technology clients in IP and commercial disputes.  She is also a member of her firm’s Women’s Strategy Group and Mental Health Steering Committee, promoting a diverse, inclusive, and healthy work environment.  Outside of her work, she enjoys riding trains and buses with her two-year-old child who loves anything with wheels.

Connect with Yuka

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/yuka-teraguchi-5b51b1b/ 

Links

PST Pizza Studio Tamaki: http://pst-tk2-ad.com/ 

Connect with Catherine 

Linked In https://www.linkedin.com/in/oconnellcatherine/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lawyeronair

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/catherine.oconnell.148

Twitter: https://twitter.com/oconnelllawyer  

Transcript

Catherine: Hi everyone. Welcome to another episode of Lawyer on Air. I'm Catherine. O'Connell the host of the show. Today I'm joined by Yuka Teraguchi. Yuka is co-head of Morrison Foerster's Tokyo litigation department. She focuses her practice on representing technology clients in IP disputes and commercial disputes.

Yuka has experience representing clients in various forums, including the US federal courts, the international trade commission and the Japanese courts. And Yuka also manages global strategy for litigation cases that span multiple jurisdictions. She is also regularly counselling clients on various legal challenges they face during product development, manufacturing and distribution. 

Her matters have involved a wide range of technologies, including computer hardware and software, communications networks, automotive components, semiconductor devices, and medical devices. Yuka is an active member of the licensing executive society.

And she also regularly lectures and moderates panels at patent related conferences. Yuka received her BS in computer science from Stanford University and her JD from the George Washington University Law School. She is admitted to the bar in California and Japan as a Gaikokujin Bengoshi, a foreign registered attorney.

Before joining the firm, Yuka clerked at the honourable Randall R Rader chief judge at the US court of appeals for the federal circuit. Yuka is a member of her firm's woman's strategy group and mental health steering committee promoting diverse, inclusive, and healthy work environment. Outside of her work she enjoys riding trains and buses with her two year old child, how lovely, and her two year old child enjoys anything with wheels, how exciting. I'm really glad to bring you Yuka Teraguchi as my guest today and share her story with you. Yuka, welcome to the show.

Yuka: Thank you very much for that welcome, Catherine. I'm very pleased to be on the show today.

Catherine: Good to have you. Today we're gonna be talking about your career path, influences along your journey, your work and life in the US and Japan, being this co-lead of the litigation team at your firm, and I'd really love you to also provide your tips and ideas for the next generation of associates who are coming up behind the ranks behind you.

How does that sound?

Yuka: Of course, that sounds perfect.

Catherine: Well, here we are again, today talking online, but if we were going to be meeting up in person, Yuka, where would we be? Do you have a favourite cafe or wine bar restaurant that you love to go to? And what would be your choice of beverage off the menu today?

Yuka: I do. I'd love to take you to this pizza restaurant called PST or Pizza Studio Tamaki. It's a cosy pizza restaurant in Higashi Azabu, about five minutes from the Tokyo tower. We randomly bumped into it while taking a neighbourhood walk, saw the neon sign that says PST and walked into it. And we've been there probably at least 50 times over the last couple of years.

Catherine: That is so cool. I don't even know that place, but now I know once I go to see Tokyo tower again, I'll see the sign for sure. Even though I've missed it up until now. That is fantastic. Yay. Do you, is there something that you have with your pizza?

Yuka: Uh, yes, so they have a variety of sangria. And I typically go with this sangria that comes in something that looks like a fishbowl.

Catherine: Oh, a fish bowl.

Yuka: It has fruits of the season, I think right now they have peach, apples, grapes. It's very fruity, as you can imagine. And it goes very well with their pizzas.

Catherine: How interesting. What's your favourite pizza?

Yuka: Ooh. Uh, so their special one is called, named after the restaurant and called Tamaki pizza. It's a little bit like margarita, but mini tomatoes instead of whole tomatoes.

Catherine: Yummy. And is Tamaki the owner or what's the reference to the word Tamaki?

Yuka: Yes, he is the owner and he is regularly the chef that makes the pizzas at the restaurant. He's actually a very fun guy to talk to as well.

Catherine: Sounds like fun. I'd love to go with you. So you go there quite regularly and now you are a jyoren san, right? A regular customer there.

Yuka: Yes, yes.

Catherine: Well, that's so much fun. I love that idea. And, and this is why I start the podcast with this question, because it really does show a lot about the personality of the people, what they love to do.

And it's also, your favourite drink really just shows up as well. And I think it's a nice way to start the podcast. So thank you very much on that. And we'll pop that into the show notes, so everyone else can go and find the restaurant. And if they do go, please tell Mr. Tamaki they heard him being mentioned on the show. That would be really nice. 

So Yuka you've had a long career so far and you've done a lot. But before we dive in there, I really love asking about childhood and what you wanted to be when you grow up.

Can you remember what you wanted to be when you were a child?

Yuka: Yeah. So when I was in grade school, I always wanted to be an architect.

Catherine: Oh, okay.

Yuka: So, especially in Japan, when you take newspapers, you get a lot of ads with it for new homes or new apartments. And they usually come with the diagrams showing the room layouts.

I loved flipping through them during breakfast, imagining what kind of house I’d like to live in when I grew up. And so for years and years, I thought I'll become an architect.

Catherine: Ah, that is really amazing, cuz it's quite different to what you are doing now. Do you like artwork though? Do you like drawing or was it the sort of preciseness though of those drawings? 

Yuka: Yes, I have almost zero artistic ability. So that's why I gave up that career. But I do like the logical ways in how the rooms are set up. I would always imagine what it would be like if I were to live in that house for example.

Catherine: So after that, you, you actually ended up going and studying in the US and you did a bachelor of science before you did your law. So tell us about that journey back then and how you got to go to the States.

Yuka: Sure. So I was born in Japan and grew up mostly in Japan, but my father got transferred to other countries quite a bit. So I spent two years in the US. For high school I went to London for three years, and to Munich for my last year in high school. So we went back and forth between Japan and other countries quite a bit while I was growing up.

So after finishing high school, I didn't quite know what I wanted to do. And I knew that for Japanese universities, you had to pick your major upfront and it was hard to change. So I opted to go a US university where you could go undecided and spend a couple of years figuring out what you wanted to do.

Catherine: Ah, that's interesting. Isn't it? That Japan makes you confirm everything at the outset. I think that's one of the things about Japan that makes it quite restrictive. Doesn't it? Whereas the same for me, you know, I chose very general subjects at school because I didn't know what I wanted to do. Right?

And then never thought I would lead into law. So it's interesting. Isn't it? That Japan is a bit more restrictive like that, that you chose the US, but why was it the US out of those countries that you were in when you were younger? Was it the US that stood out for you as the place to go to?

Yuka: No, it's a much simpler reason than that, Catherine.

Catherine: Oh, okay.

Yuka: I'm a little bit embarrassed to confess. So when I was applying for universities, I was living in London. It was December, it was gloomy every day. We had about 20 minutes of sunshine a day.

Catherine: Oh.

Yuka: And I went, I applied to a bunch of universities and when I got an acceptance letter from Stanford university, they also sent me a mini DVD introducing the school.

And when I played that DVD, I saw a lot of blue sky, you know, nice weather and thought, oh, this sounds like a great place to be.

Catherine: You know, you've got to choose places based on the weather. I really believe that because I love Japan too, because four seasons, and also I had a year, nearly a year in London. And I agree with you on that. When it's beautiful weather, London is great, but it is pretty gloomy during the other cold months of the year.

Well, good on you for making a decision based on that. So you got accepted into Stanford and what happened then? You did a science degree?

Yuka: So in high school, I liked math and sciences. I tried out a lot of majors in that field, including, you know, pre-med genetics, mechanical engineering, and to try out the architecture route, I took some art classes as well. Eventually, I took a computer science class and just fell in love with it.

Catherine: Oh, really? Wow.

Yuka: I think it was the logical thinking behind it. And also we had a great professor. It was like, programming was like playing a video game almost. And I had lots of fun. So I decided to pick that route,

Catherine: So you followed your heart, really, things that sort of sung to you. And then you switched to law. So how did you get introduced to law after that?

Yuka: When I was doing my computer science degree, I always thought I would become a programmer. In fact, a lot of my classmates, it was during the tech boom. So they went to Google, Apple, Amazon, and Facebook, which was just founded a year before we graduated from undergrad. And I did try out programming for a little bit.

And I was okay at it, but I knew I would never be great at it. The reason is, I never really had a good vision of what would be the next big selling product. My friends had visions and ideas about, oh, wouldn't it be great if we had software that would do this or do that. And I liked programming, but those ideas just didn't really come to me.

So I thought, no, I like this job. I like being a programmer, but maybe I should find something that I actually will be great at. Not just something that I'm fine at.

Catherine: Ooh. So it's the difference between being fine at something and being great at something. So how did law come across your path though? Was there some other someone there, like you mentioned your great professor and I think, you know, your teachers at school or your professors at university really do have a way of inspiring more than I think they know.

So was there someone like that in your life who helped you think about law?

Yuka: Yes, there are several professors at my undergrad that I was very close with, and I was candid about my career plans and had concerns. And one of them advised me that, well, you know, I think what you like about computer science is the logical reasoning behind it and you have the language skills. So why don't you pick a job that takes advantage of that logical reasoning skills and the language skills?

So I thought about it, and thought maybe law is a good place to be. Especially IP law where I could actually get to understand the latest technology and also applied logical reasoning to help the clients with their IP problems.

Catherine: Wow. Okay. Did you have anyone in your family who was a lawyer?

Yuka: No, I am the first lawyer in the family, so my family was quite surprised when I made that decision.

Catherine: Yeah. They, would've not quite connected all the dots, but then you find this person who sort of can see beyond what you can in the moment that thinks about you with this logical reasoning skills, language combination, and then that feeds back into the kind of programming aspect in a way, because it's very scientific, isn't it? IP law.

Yuka: It is, it is, I'm very grateful for the professors I had in undergrad.

Catherine: Wow. So then is this how you're finding, instead of being fine at something you've turned into something that is great, that you can do, and you don't have to be “kenson” humble about this. This is where you feel it inside of you.

Yuka: So I'm still not great at it, but I do enjoy it a lot. I think I made the right decision.

Catherine: Very good. And you joined MoFo after you got your JD?

Yuka: Yes, I did. So I joined the MoFo Palo Alto office after I got my JD. and then after about two years, I decided to clerk for a judge at the federal circuit, which is a core that focuses on IP cases. And afterwards I decided to come to the MoFo Tokyo office.

Catherine: What attracted you to MoFo back in the day? Like you, they promote at schools, don't they, when you're there. So was there something or someone from that firm that attracted you?

Yuka: Yes. So I enjoyed meeting all the people during my interview session and others had told me that I should pick a firm where I could actually feel a good personal connection where I'll be able to like the people I work with. Other reasons were that MoFo had a strong Tokyo presence, even back then when I first applied and I knew I might eventually want to come to Tokyo for work

Catherine: So it was quite strategic. Really? The choice. Yeah.

Yuka: It was, it was.

Catherine: Who did you meet? Did you ever meet other people from the Tokyo office at the time?

Yuka: Not during the interview cycle, but after I got accepted for the MoFo summer program, I actually had an opportunity to come out to Tokyo for about a month. And I had a wonderful time here. And that's when I knew that I would eventually want to come out to Tokyo to practice law.

Catherine: You felt it, I mean, we do, don't we? You can't deny how you feel inside about a place where you feel that personal connection. And that really is so important because we spend so much time at work that we do need that feeling to enjoy and have joy at work. I love that.

Yuka: Definitely.

Catherine: Yeah. And then with this time that you did the law clerking, that sounds really interesting.

Are there things there that you learned or experience that really serve you quite well now as a litigation lawyer?

Yuka: Oh yes. So as a law clerk, you get to read so many briefs from so many different lawyers. So I think I got to understand what good writing looks like.

Catherine: Yeah, I get that.

Yuka: Also what good strategy is. We saw some briefs that raised 12 different issues on the appeal and I realised that from the court's perspective, when you have so many issues that makes each of your issues look very weak. Rather you wanna pick one or two arguments that you're very comfortable and confident about and just go straight to those arguments and spend time arguing those points.

And that has a much better chance of winning than putting out a kitchen sink approach.

Catherine: Excellent. Isn't it? It's like concentration on the few things that matter. Not trying to scatter, scatter approach to getting, we'll try this and we'll try that and we'll try this, you know, narrowing down and that's a really important thing and skill for lawyers to learn. Isn't it to narrow down?

Yuka: Oh, yes, yes. You want to know which issues you wanna focus on.

Catherine: Right. And that opportunity, you said that you were in the Palo Alto office and it came up, so you were just, it was just go, please do go and try this out. It all gets the support of the firm to do something like that. Is that right? So what I'm trying to get at here is would you recommend someone who may have that opportunity presented that they go and do something like that?

Yuka: Oh, yes, for sure. Even for corporate attorneys as well, not only litigators, it gives you a totally different perspective on how you see a case. What kind of issues the judges will focus on, and like I said, what good writing looks like, what a good brief looks like, and it was a very fantastic experience, a very good learning experience for me.

Catherine: Mm.

Yuka: And so I recommend anyone and everyone to try out for a clerkship, if they can.

Catherine: Interesting. Have you ever come across any of the people whose briefs you saw when you were at the clerking role?

Yuka: Yes, I actually have, there are some standout appellate briefs. And I do remember the names of the attorneys who were responsible for those briefs. So I've been co-counsel and also opposing counsel to some of those attorneys.

Catherine: What a great experience. Yeah. See how things come around, don't they? You may view that kind of work in a kind of silo, but actually all of these things are very much related and you do find those people come along your path later in your career. 

So really important too, how you treat people as you go along, cuz they'll often be a co-counsel with you or opposing counsel. Wow. Okay. So how was it then when you did actually come to Japan? Did you find a real big difference between working in the US and working in Japan? Even though you're with the same firm?

Yuka: Some differences. So the actual substandard part of the job I do, like writing a brief or making oral arguments, hasn't changed, but the amount of client interactions have definitely changed.

Catherine: Oh, how's that? Tell me about that.

Yuka: Sure. So in the US, most of the in-house counsel have law degrees and have worked at law firms before.

So they know the drill and if they have any questions, they'll give a partner a quick five minute call and get that issue resolved. Unlike the US, a lot of Japanese in-house counsel, some of them have legal background, but very few of them are actually barred attorneys and not many of them have legal experience in US.

So they need more detailed advice on how to do certain things. Especially as a Japanese speaker, I realised that the clients actually called me even when I was an associate and asked questions about how US litigation works. And from that, I think I got a lot more client interaction opportunities here in Japan compared to when I was in the US.

Catherine: It's a good point you bring up, about the exposure to litigation or the courts early in your career. Often when we join firms, we specialise straight away, right?

Yuka: Yes.

Catherine: Yeah. And then I think back to my early days, back in New Zealand. When I was in practice in a law firm, I was thrown into court many a time.

Although my real inkling was towards commercial work. The work in the courts was so excellent for later when I was in-house counsel in Japan. And I could know basically about court work, right? Although the jurisdictions are different, the court forums are different, having that basic litigation, at least a little bit in your background really is very, very important, I think, for in-house counsel. What do you think about that?

Yuka: Oh, I totally agree with that. Being a litigator, having that core experience gives you the additional perspective that others might not have, and especially when your company gets sued or wants to sue somebody, for example, I think the legal litigation background will help you better assess the exposure risk, or where the litigation is likely going to take the company.

Catherine: That's so right. Yeah. Wow. Is there anything so far that we've talked about that I've missed or skipped over that I've missed in your career that you'd like to mention?

Yuka: Uh, no, I, I think you covered everything.

Catherine: Okay, good. Because I wanna go on then to when you became partner in, I think January, 2018.

Yuka: Yes. I think that's right. It seems a long time ago.

Catherine: So that's nearly, what, five years ago.

Yuka: Yes.

Catherine: Were you one of the youngest partners to be made up to partner?

Yuka: I think I was. I was 34.

Catherine: Cause I'm just, I'm only looking at your CV, and on LinkedIn and thinking, I think you were one without actually asking you before this, cuz I did want to find out, on the podcast, and make it real. So was it your goal to be partner and is that quite fast? Five years seems very fast to me. So tell us a bit more about that, how you got to be made up and how it felt during that process.

Yuka: Sure actually, when I started my legal career, I never thought I would stay at any law firm for this long, or I'll be staying here long enough to make partner. I was just never interested in that partner role. I like the job.

Catherine: You like the job?

Yuka: I like the job. And, it was mostly because of the unknowns of becoming a partner.

Yuka: So what I wanna say is that when I was an associate, as long as I did my work and did a good job on it, I was fine. But I knew that once you make partner, you have to do so much more business development. You have other administrative tasks. And I just didn't know what that would actually look like.

And I think it was more of a fear of would I be able to handle that more than anything else that I just did not think partnership was a career path I wanted to follow, but I did like my job. So I stuck around long enough and luckily others, I guess, appreciated my work and put me on the partner list.

So I actually just found out two months before I officially made partner that I was on the final list of partner candidates. 

Catherine: Wow. that's not much lead time. Is it?

Yuka: No, honestly, I freaked out.

Catherine: Yeah. And how did you get over that fear though? That, that could I do it? Could I do the admin or BD? Does that just come with it? You just take it on, feel the fear and do it anyway, as they say, or something happened there that somebody helped you with all of that?

And it's never, is it never as bad as you actually think it is?

Yuka: Mm-hmm that's what happened. So when I was told I was on this final list, I wasn't sure if I actually wanted to make it. So I talked to one of the partners I trust in the Tokyo office and said, I don't know if I wanna actually make partner. Do I stick around or do I go find some other legal position elsewhere, such as an in-house counsel?

And he said, well, you never really know what a partner is gonna be like, until you make it and you become one.

Catherine: Mm.

Yuka: And if it doesn't work out, you can always quit. So rather than quitting, now it's better to quit after you make partner, you can at least say you are a partner at MoFo before.

Catherine: Well, there is that

Yuka: So it was just casual advice.

Catherine: How refreshing?

Yuka: It was, it was. And so I thought, no, there's some truth to being able to say that you're a former partner at a big law firm. So I decided to go with it, and made partner, and I haven't regretted it at all. Like you said it wasn't as bad as I had expected, actually much better than I had expected.

I get more ownership over my projects, my cases, and I get to talk to my clients about strategy on a much deeper level than I used to as an associate. So I actually am enjoying being partner. And I am grateful for that senior partner for that casual frank advice.

Catherine: Wow, there you go. You can't underrate a casual conversation that really steers you in the right direction. And what you needed. Right? I mean, this person's giving really practical advice. It's not about what they thought of themselves. They're actually thinking about you, as they said that, you know, give it a go.

You can always quit. And that is so real. I love the reality and frankness of that comment. That is brilliant. And then you also took maternity leave during this time, right? So how did that work as you were ramping up being a partner?

Yuka: Yes. So I took paternity leave about a year or two into my partnership.

Catherine: Good one. Sorry. Paternity leave is what you call it. Of course not maternity leave. It's more general. So one to two years in, mm. Tell us about that.

Yuka: Sure. So, I was actually worried before taking my leave as to what would actually happen in my career a little bit. My sister-in-law gave me great advice beforehand. She's a former lawyer who turned into an investment banker and she's a superwoman, with three kids and she told me, Yuka, when you have a career, it's never a good time to have kids.

You always worry about what's gonna happen to your career when you take leave or when you're raising kids. But on the flip side, that means that it's always a good time to have kids.

Catherine: Whoa, what a comment.

Yuka: Yes.

Catherine: Isn't that incredible? Always a good time.

Yuka: Yes. So that encouraged us to start a family and maybe I have some concerns, but why not? It's always a good time. So let's go forward with it.

Catherine: That has really got me kind of, I got goosebumps as you said that, this never a good time, but actually the flip side, it's always a good time to have children. What great inspiration. As she was telling you that though, that first part of that comment must have made you think, oh, I can't do it.

And then she comes out with something incredible like that for you to be inspired by.

Yuka: Yes. And she's got three kids and she has a successful career and I do look up to her quite a bit.

Catherine: Wow. So how did that work then with off ramping and on ramping, if I can call it that, did that go quite smoothly then?

Yuka: So off ramping was okay. I told others in my office about me taking leave. So I gradually shifted my work to other partners and associates. The on ramping coming back from leave was to be honest, a little bit tough. I remember coming back from my leave and I was asked to help out with a motion for a temporary restraining order.

And I realised that I hadn't written a brief in the last six months during my leave. I had kind of forgotten how to write one.

Catherine: You were a little rusty.

Yuka: I was very rusty,

Catherine: Oh, what happened then?

Yuka: So I did my first draft. And it just didn't come out as easily as I had hoped. So my husband is a lawyer, so I had him check my draft and his comment was, yeah, this doesn't read like what you used to write.

Catherine: Mm

Yuka: So he gave me some overall tips, and I realised, oh yes, I forgot about those points. I reworked that and I managed to produce some work product that was acceptable.

Catherine: Wow.

Yuka: It did take three, four months for me to actually get back on track and be comfortable with my actual work product.

Catherine: Yeah. I mean, I can imagine that though, because it's like if you took, what do they call it? When people go on holiday for a long time from work? Sabbatical, that's the one I'm looking for. So people take time off and it's very good and enriching for you, but actually it's very hard to come back into the fold again for anything, I think, when we take a period of time off. 

But how interesting that you've already mentioned a couple of family members who have brought you into reality. So maybe we underestimate some of the information we can get from family members?

Yuka: Definitely. So my husband, who's also a lawyer, helped me greatly during the on ramping stage. He gave me comments on my draft emails to clients, for example,

Catherine: Great. And he can keep, you know, that's great. He can keep you going on that too. That's a great resource to have had. And so now in your current role, what do you like about the work that you do? What parts of it do you enjoy?

Yuka: There are many aspects I actually like, but as a litigator who focuses on IP law, what I like the most about it is I actually get to work with professors and engineers throughout the top of their field. And I get to understand from them how the latest technology works. So you have a new product that comes out in the market, and that might be the focus of a new suit.

I get to go and talk to the engineers who made that product and learn about how that product works, how that's so different from other products in the market. And as a former computer scientist, I find that very enjoyable and fascinating to hear about.

Catherine: Mm, it's almost like now your vision of the next best selling product that you talked about before, is actually something that you are now hearing from the people that you are dealing with on a relatively daily basis. Right? So it's sort of, that has now come to you. You do and can feel and envisage along the lines with them, the new things that are coming and the new technology.

Yuka: Yes, exactly. And I often advise on the product development stage as well about the litigation risk, for example. So I get to see how the products get developed, what kind of thoughts engineers put into developing a new product, and that's always great to learn about.

Catherine: Mm, from my working in the past as in-house counsel with manufacturing companies, I was doing similar to you in dealing with engineers who were creating things that were just fascinating. And I always used to think, gosh, how do they do it? But you're bringing back a memory there of the combination that lawyers have, and can work with other different personalities and technicalities of different, you're saying engineers, or people who are at the top of their field, scientists, et cetera.

So you never really get away from that. I think you're working with specialists across the fields, whether you're in litigation or in a commercial situation in a law firm or indeed in-house counsel. So is that rewarding then? This is what you're saying. It's very rewarding working with these different kinds of people.

Yuka: Yes. It very much is. And also once we go into litigation and being able to defend the client's product, for example, and getting that successful win makes me feel like I'm actually protecting somebody's work, a lot of effort put into that work and that is very rewarding to have.

Catherine: It's really tangible too. Isn't it? Because sometimes as lawyers, we find it very hard to find that tangible output or result from the work we do. So that's what you are getting from that I'm hearing.

Yuka: Mm-hmm, definitely. And it might be similar to your in-house experience as well, helping the other engineers and other business folks, work on their new products or their other R and D efforts.

Catherine: Exactly. Yeah. So as well as that in the firm, your regular work that you are billing for, you are devoting your time then also to the women's strategy group and the mental health steering committee. And I first heard about you being involved in this work, Yuka, when you co-moderated the international women, that women's day panel in March this year, in 2022.

And so you're a member of these groups promoting diverse, inclusive, and healthy work environments. Tell us more about these groups and committees that you're involved in and why do they matter to you?

Yuka: Yes, I'm passionate about both of them. So maybe we can take the mental health steering committee, which is fairly new, but it's playing a huge role at the firm. The mental steering committee is formed by both attorneys and non attorneys in the firm and does focus on the mental wellbeing as well as the general wellbeing, like your physical body, because we believe that healthy mind and healthy body go hand in hand.

The mental health steering community really took off during the pandemic we had, especially in Tokyo. I guess around the world, people were worried about what kind of impact the pandemic would have on their family, on their health, on their work. Also, especially in Tokyo, we have a lot of attorneys and staff members from overseas who didn't get to see their family for over a year.

And in that kind of a living environment, it's hard to stay mentally healthy and be able to work at the same time. We also had attorneys and staff members whose kids' schools were closed and had to juggle kids staying at home as well as work at the same time. And so we all went through this struggle together, especially early on the pandemic.

And we wanted to have this committee to help support those who are in need. And so the mental health steering committee works on various programs throughout the year, but especially during the pandemic, we had sessions for attorneys and staff members on how to juggle work with raising kids.

We had different sessions depending on the kids' age group, so that the parents got practical advice on how to handle the things together. We also partnered with third parties on releasing apps so that people could meditate at least a couple minutes a day to bring that healthy mentality back. And we do check in with partners especially on a regular basis to make sure they are communicating with the associates and staff members, keeping an eye out for those who might need support, who might need help, so that we can offer that support in a timely manner.

Catherine: Great. Yeah. And I think that, you know, juggling the work with kids and dividing it up by age groups, that's a really novel idea because the challenges are different with different age groups. At Women in Law, Japan, we have a group; Mamas in the law and it's divided too when we have meetings, divided up by age group.

I like that idea. Great. So some of those are still continuing, those programs?

Yuka: Yes. Definitely. We actually meet every other month firm wide to discuss the next steps, to discuss the next programming so that we can better promote having a healthy mind. I think this mental health issue is more of a recent idea, especially in the legal industry. I think a generation ago, people weren't really thinking about mental health.

It was to work as hard as you can, and just deal with it was the message I think the previous generation often received. But now that we realise that no, you have to have this healthy mind in order to be, not only a good lawyer, but just a healthy person, to have a sustainable life, we are putting a lot more focus on mentally healthy states.

Catherine: Yes. I agree with that. And how about the woman's strategy group? How does that work?

Yuka: Sure. So the women's strategy group consists mostly of women partners and associates around the firm, who want to focus on recruiting, developing and retaining diverse talent in the legal profession. Morrison & Foerster does a pretty good job of recruiting and retaining talent. And other law firms are also good at recruiting talent, but we have seen that more increasingly as the associates become more senior it gets more difficult to retain that talent.

And so even we have an incoming recruiting class of 50/50 male to female ratio. Once you get to a fifth, sixth year level, you have more men than women. And unfortunately in that five year period in particular, we do lose quite a bit of very talented women. And one of our focuses for the women's strategy committee is to make sure we understand what their needs are and address them so that we can try and retain that talent pool as much as possible.

Catherine: And what is it though? Is it the paternity, looking after family, that's the main reason or is it generally, as we are hearing a lot of lately, this new way of, you know, switching jobs out? What is it that's the difficulty around retaining?

Yuka: Yeah, that's a difficult question to answer because it varies so much from person to person, but Catherine, as you mentioned, I think taking leave or starting a family plays a big impact on women's decisions on whether to continue with their legal career at a big law firm or elsewhere. We talk about men, women equality a lot more these days, and I think it's getting much better, but on a practical level, I think more women are doing the housework, have more responsibility looking after the kids.

And increasingly these days they have more responsibility taking care of the elderly at home. I think those pressures combined with pressure at work, makes some of the women associates steer away from big law jobs unfortunately.

Catherine: Mm. So what kinds of activities are you doing there with that group? Is that semi-regular then, I know you're meeting every other month, right? Or is that the mental health committee? Is the women's strategy group also meeting again semi-regularly like that?

Yuka: Yes, we actually meet on a monthly basis and we have subcommittees that meet often as well. We do have quite a few programs out, trying to ensure equality and diversity within the firm. At the same time, we often pair up the women committee members with the women associates in the firm. So we can make sure the associates are taken care of. 

I think when associates make their career decisions, it's important that they have somebody that they can go to for advice. I was talking about a senior partner I went to when I was put on the final list of partner candidates. And that makes a huge difference whether you have somebody that you can go to or not.

Catherine: Right.

Yuka: So we want to ensure that all of the associates have somebody that they can go to when they're trying to make their career decisions or have some concerns about how they want to go about in their career.

Catherine: Right. And that's different to, I'm imagining, a mentor. Is it more like a buddy, a kind of resource for you?

Yuka: Yes. Yes, definitely. It can be 1 on 1, but we also make sure that we provide them with resources on, hey, here are the people you can connect with if you have concerns about raising kids between the ages of zero and two while working full time.

Catherine: Again, very specific, right? So it gives someone a real place to latch onto, to help themselves during that. It's really interesting.

Yuka: Yes.

Catherine: Oh, wow. Okay. And so outside of the firm, too, Yuka, you are active in the, I think it was called the licensing executive society. What is that? And are there many Japan members?

Are you one of the few Japan members in that team?

Yuka: Yes. So the licensing executive society is a group of attorneys and in-house counsels as well as patenting agents, who are interested in learning more about IP law, both in Japan and elsewhere. I'm not exactly sure how many members there are in Japan, but I know there are at least hundreds.

We actually had an annual conference for the licensed executive society near Biwako over the weekend.

I actually went there to give a little talk on US IP law issues.

Catherine: Well done.

Yuka: Thank you. And we actually had over a hundred members attend in person and some more attending virtually by Zoom as well. So we have quite a few members joining from all over Japan.

Catherine: Wow. I wonder if Naomi Koshi was there. She's one of the podcast guests, but she's also based in her family area, I think near Biwako, she talked about that on the podcast.

Yuka: Oh, great.

Catherine: Yeah. She may well have been there. Well, that's really interesting. I wanna head into future of law topics, but just at this point Yuka, a little probing question about the accomplishment you are proudest of so far in your career.

Yuka: Oh, gosh, that's hard. Let me think about this. Catherine, about the proudest moment of my career as a litigator, going to trial and winning a trial is the most rewarding part of our job. After doing jury trial for several weeks, waiting patiently for the jury deliberation. And when the jury delivers the verdict, you're sitting in the courtroom very nervously with your fingers crunched together and finding out ultimately that you actually brought a successful result to the client.

That moment is very, very rewarding.

Catherine: It's what you've worked to. Isn't it? It's what you've worked up to, that's it, isn't it? The pinnacle.

Yuka: Yes. Yes. And we have witnesses from the clients who've devoted their precious time for the trial as well. Other in-house counsel for the clients who worked endlessly for that trial. So it's great to see all of that effort culminating in a successful result.

Catherine: Yeah. And up until that point, you actually have no idea how the jury has gone. You might have a feeling about the case and how it went, but beyond that, you don't know until that moment. And that finger crunching time, I hear you on that. It's really very stressful at that point. Isn't it?

Yuka: Oh, it definitely is. You try to have a poker face on during the jury deliberation, but you never know what the jury will come out with. You're definitely hoping for a good result for your client, but you just don't know until one of the jurors stands up and gives the verdict.

Catherine: Wow. Good one. That's a great answer. Well done you. And so thinking about the future of law, what would be your future dream for this role that you've got, and perhaps the future of law and the area that you are in? What are you seeing coming up?

Yuka: Sure. Especially in my field of IP law. There will be more cases involving autonomous driving. And I'm quite passionate about autonomous driving because when I was a computer science student in undergrad, I actually worked on one of the world's first autonomous driving cars at Stanford University.

Catherine: Did you?

Yuka: I did. So autonomous driving back then was very, very basic though. When it rained, you couldn't drive the car because the car would detect the rain and would think that there was a wall in front of it. It was that basic back then.

Catherine: How interesting. Yeah.

Yuka: But now I see many companies coming out with autonomous or semi autonomous driving cars and I believe that in five years, maybe a little more, there'll be a lot more autonomous cars out there. And that's exciting for me just on the technology level, but also for the law because autonomous cars involve so much intermixing of the networking technology, software, and hardware such as chips and cameras.

And so I think it'll be a fascinating field to endeavour in.

Catherine: Yeah, very interesting. And also on a practical level, you can't, I believe, buy a car in Japan, unless you have a driver's licence.

Yuka: No.

Catherine: Right? So you can imagine how this is going to impact society in a big way, because you won't need to have a licence to be behind or with an autonomous vehicle.

Yuka: Mm-hmm, definitely. And especially in Japan where there's an ageing population, I think autonomous driving cars will definitely help those who might be a little bit too old to drive cars by themselves but need a mode of transportation going from one place to another.

Catherine: Exactly exactly. And keeping them able to be out and meeting people and doing things that they want to do, going places, seeing certain floral exhibitions somewhere, doing those kinds of things and not being restricted, just because of not having a licence. So it's going to expand a lot of things, but may also contract a few of the industries in Japan that we have such as the big business around getting a driver's licence and all the teaching of that.

That could be a very interesting area that changes quite differently. Right? Quite well disrupted in many ways. 

Yuka: Yes. I agree. I think we'll see some changes over the next 10 years.

Catherine: Yeah. Yeah. I love that example you gave about the rain being interpreted by the autonomous vehicle as a wall and stopping driving. We've really moved along the line since then.

Amazing.

Yuka: Definitely have over the last 20 years.

Catherine: The other thing that I always ask guests who are in law firms, such as yourself, is the tips that you have. So perhaps one, two or three tips you have for people who are in law firms, their long term success as a lawyer in a law firm in Japan, what would they be from you?

Yuka: Sure. One of the tips would be a tip that I received when I was a junior associate. A partner told me that being a lawyer is not a sprint, it's a marathon. When I started at MoFo, I felt that everyone else was so much smarter than me and had so much more experience that I had to work extra hard to meet the demands and meet others' expectations. So I did work late nights. When a brief was due on Friday, for example, I tried to get the draft done by Wednesday so that I had extra days to revise as necessary.

And I think at one point I almost got close to burning out because I was just working so much and was stressing over the quality of the work product. And one of the partners noticed this and said, you know, it's great that you're working hard, but you're not gonna last long if you work at this pace, you're gonna burn out. Now think of this as a marathon. It is not a sprint. 

You're going to learn from experience. And you know, you don't need to worry too much about working that extra hard to meet the expectations. It's always good to deliver the best work product you can deliver, but you don't actually gain much from working those extra late night hours for example.

Catherine: Right. So that incremental difference is not enough to suffer or to have that potential of burning out, right? It's just not necessary. And that it is a marathon to be a good lawyer to be even just a lawyer, as he said, right? Being a lawyer is not a sprint. It's a marathon. Brilliant.

Yuka: Yes. And another piece of advice I received was that you want to figure out what differentiates you from others. This is especially in relation to business development. And I got this comment from one of the senior partners right after I made partner at MoFo. And he told me there are so many lawyers out there, at competitive prices.

We, and also the big law firms, charge a premium. We are not cheap. And so you have to think about why the clients would wanna retain you for a new case. What distinguishes you from others in the field? And thinking about that helps me think how I can better serve the client's needs.

Because for example, my Japanese language skills might be one of the reasons why the client retained us. And so I can make sure that I use my language skill to support the client, in case there are any language barriers in deciding the strategy, for example. So that advice has made me realise what I need to actually think about, what I need to focus on when I'm doing client service.

Catherine: Excellent. Is there anything else?

Yuka: The last one I would come back to is the advice from my sister-in-law.

Catherine: Mm.

Yuka: That it's never a good time to have kids, which means on the flip side, it's always a good time. That makes me realise, you know, things will be okay. No matter what kind of decision you make, it'll turn out okay. If you wanna do something, just do it.

And you'll work out something in the end.

Catherine: I love that. I really do love that. Is there anything Yuka, today that we've talked about that you wanna re emphasise just as you did there with your sister-in-law's advice or anything that we haven't covered today that you would like to mention?

Yuka: Especially for working mothers who are juggling raising kids as well as working at the same time, I realise that it is a very difficult thing to do, to juggle. It's almost like juggling two full-time jobs. But for those who are especially thinking about having kids, I want to emphasise that there are people who support you through this process. Japan, for example, has excellent daycare facilities, who look after your kids. And although it might seem hard, it might seem impossible at the beginning. It is actually not. It is hard, I'll be honest, but it is something that I'm sure others can do.

Especially given that I have somehow figured out how to juggle those two at the same time. So I guess my message to women out there who are thinking about starting a family is that it is possible to work full time and raise kids. that you will need to find the necessary support, but it is doable.

So I don't want people to give up their legal career because they wanna start a family.

Catherine: Oh, yes. Thank you, Yuka. You said it. Great. All right. Thank you very, very much for that. 

We're gonna head into the final round, a quick fire round of questions I ask every guest and I know you've listened to a few episodes, so I know you know what's coming. So I might change things around a bit for you.

So if you were to win a million yen tomorrow, what would you do with it?

Yuka: Wow. I'd donate to the Tokyo metropolitan government or the city to raise the salaries for the daycare teachers.

Catherine: Oh, hallelujah. 

Yuka: We have our two year old at daycare and we cannot have two full-time jobs in our family without the daycare and the daycare teachers are excellent. My kid every morning asks me if there's daycare today and he has a big smile on his face when we tell him that, yes, you're going to daycare. So anything we can do to raise their pay, I would be up for it.

Catherine: I love that. I really love that. All right. Thank you for that. Second question is if you could live anywhere in the world, where would it be?

Yuka: Ooh, that's actually a tough one.

Catherine: Yeah.

Yuka: I'd actually like to try living in New Zealand, where you're from, Catherine. We were planning to have a 10 day trip to New Zealand right before COVID started. Unfortunately, we had to cancel it because it was planned for March of 2020 when the pandemic hit, but we are hoping to go back and visit New Zealand hopefully sometime next year. I've heard wonderful things about it. So that's definitely a place that we would like to try out.

Catherine: All right. Well, when you do, you have to let me know, so I can give you all the inside stories.

Yuka: Oh, fantastic.

Catherine: Can you share a podcast or a book or a film, maybe from Netflix, that you are listening to, reading, or have watched that you would recommend

Yuka: Let's see. I'm actually rereading Harry Potter again for, I think the fifth or sixth time. I really got into Harry Potter as a middle school kid. And as you might know, there's a new play in Japan out there based on a story. Harry Potter in his forties, I think.

Catherine: Yes, that's right. I heard about that. A taxi driver in Tokyo told me about that. You wonder why, cuz it's his son who is playing that part.

Yuka: Oh, wow.

Catherine: And he was bragging to me and very proudly about his son playing in this part. I don't even know how we were talking about Harry Potter, but you've reminded me.

Yes. Right. Are you going to that or are you reading it and you'll go to the play as well?

Yuka: So I finally managed to get a ticket for May of next year.

Catherine: Oh really?

Yuka: A long time from now, but I am rereading the story to just kind of redo my junior high school days.

Catherine: Yeah, cuz actually this chap, the taxi driver was saying that all the tickets are sold out. And so that sounds right, that he said they'll be released again for next year and I thought next year, but there you go. Wow. That's exciting. And what about if you were going to write a book tomorrow? What would you write about?

Yuka: So I haven't talked about this in this podcast today, but my other hobby is I love doing patchwork.

Catherine: Oh, right. Great.

Yuka: So maybe a book on new patchwork designs, perhaps.

Catherine: Sounds like architecture. I can feel a little bit of architectural design coming through the patchwork. And you said you weren't creative. You definitely are. Wow. Is there someone famous that you have met before or that you would love to meet in the future?

Yuka: So it's related to my previous answer, but J K Rowling who wrote the Harry Potter book, I would love to hear her stories about how she came up with it, such a creative story.

Catherine: Yeah, really interesting. Great. And one last thing you've talked about patchwork, but is there something else about you that a lot of people don't know?

Yuka: Oh, people don't know that I'm still A code monkey. I was a computer science student and I still actually love programming. So there are toys out there where you can program and make a Lego robot walk around, for example. I actually buy those toys for myself. I tell my husband that these toys are for my two year old son, but I actually open the box in front of him and can do everything by myself.

Catherine: That is hilarious. I'm waiting for the people who listen to this at your firm. When they come to this point, they will be blown away by that. Oh my goodness. That is so great. Well, Yuka, thank you so much for coming on lawyer on air. It's been such a joy. We've often been guided in these to have a smile on your face as you speak.

And often we have to push the smile out, but not today. You have had me smiling for everything that you've said. It's just been kind of a model answer for everything and what you have given today. I just loved talking with you. You've really shared your inspiration, your work, your life, balancing, you know, as a mom, your call out and shout outs to the people who, you know, look after the children in this community and enable us to be able to be great lawyers and carry on with our day jobs when we've got this whole support team beside us.

And I especially loved the idea that you would say that people shouldn't just give up because they're going to try and tackle being a mom and work as well. It's really important that we don't give up our careers for becoming a mum, but don't give up being a mum because of your career.

Yuka: Yes. Both ways.

Catherine: Oh, thank you so much for sharing your wonderful story. Can people get in touch with you, maybe through your business email or on LinkedIn? How would you like them to do that? If that's okay?

Yuka: Yes. So I'm reachable at my firm's email. I'm also on LinkedIn. So either way would work for me.

Catherine: Fantastic. We'll put those into the show notes so people can reach out to you. That's really great to hear and we'll finish it up here. Thank you again for being a guest on the show. And for my listeners, please do, I would be surprised if you don't, like this episode and subscribe to Lawyer on Air and also do drop us a short review if you've got time, because that does help Lawyer on Air be seen and heard by more people.

And you can also pop on over to my website and there's a place there to leave a voicemail, one minute worth of you speaking. And we can share that with people as well. And tell us, you know, what you thought in your own voice. We really love hearing that. So thank you very, very much. Please share this episode with someone you think will enjoy listening to it and be inspired to live a wonderful lawyer, extraordinaire life, and that's all for now.

Thank you. And we'll see you on the next episode. Cheers, kampai and bye for now.

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