A full transcript follows.

Don’t miss the next edition of the monthly Lawyer on Air Community Newsletter! Subscribe here.

Keiko Ohara and Junko Ohara are mother and daughter lawyers and my guests in Episode One of Season Four! If you are wondering what the journey of being a lawyer and a parent might be like and what your own kids might be thinking as you try to navigate your career, this episode will give you insights that might surprise you. It’s a really heartwarming episode that goes to show that parents and children don’t always have the full picture of a situation but that even years later you can come to an appreciation of what your parents went through.  

If you enjoyed this episode and it inspired you in some way, we’d love to hear about it and know your biggest takeaway. Head over to Apple Podcasts to leave a review and we’d love it if you would leave us a message here!

In this episode you’ll hear:

• How Keiko became a lawyer and how she furthered her studies in the US taking her small baby Junko with her

• Leaving a law firm to go out on her own despite the challenges of raising a family 

• The pressure of growing up in a lawyer family and how Junko overcame them

• How Junko negotiated a return to work after maternity leave that suited her work and her parenting style

• Their favourite books and other fun facts 

About Keiko Ohara 

Keiko Ohara is founder and partner at Kamiyacho International Law Office. Keiko has worked in the Tokyo office of Komatsu, Koma & Nishikawa and at Weil Gotshal & Manges in New York. 

Her firm focuses on representing foreign companies investing and doing business in Japan. She also assists Japanese companies doing business with foreign companies. She helps clients with general corporate matters, M&A commercial contracts, employment matters, dispute resolution, regulatory compliance, and corporate governance.

Keiko is outside independent director at Financial Products Group Co., Ltd. and Fujikyuko Co., Ltd. She is an Independent Statutory Auditor at Taisei Corporation and Auditor at the NGO Save the Children Japan. Keiko sits on the Committee of foreign lawyers and international legal practice at the Japan Federation of Bar associations.

Keiko is on the committee on foreign special members and international legal practice at the Daiichi Tokyo Bar Association. Keiko qualified as a Bengoshi in Japan in 1988 and as a New York state attorney at law in 1993. She has a BA in economics and an LLB in law from Keio University and achieved her LLM from Harvard law school.

LinkedIn

About Junko Ohara

Junko Ohara is a Japanese lawyer (bengoshi). After qualifying as a lawyer, she joined Freshfields Bruckhaus Deringer’s Tokyo office and is working as an associate to date. She is a member of the Global Transaction team and specializes in general corporate work, in particular cross-border public and private M&A. She also advises on various commercial and real estate transactions and helps international clients navigate and understand the Japanese market. She also assists clients on equity-based compensation schemes and compliance issues, including anti-bribery, sanctions and data protection laws. She has a strong interest in pro bono work as well and has been an active member of activities to protect children and LGBTQ rights in Japan. She is a mother of a daughter and a dog (both 1 year old).  

Junko Ohara | Freshfields Bruckhaus Deringer

LinkedIn

Links

Bolt Restaurant

Victor Frankl: Man’s search for meaning.

Oscar Wilde: The importance of being earnest

Michelle Obama: Becoming

Connect with Catherine 

Linked In https://www.linkedin.com/in/oconnellcatherine/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lawyeronair

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/catherine.oconnell.148

Twitter: https://twitter.com/oconnelllawyer 

Transcript

Catherine: Hi everyone. Welcome to another episode of Lawyer on Air. I'm the host of the show, Catherine O'Connell. Today I am joined by not one, but two guests. I've wanted to have Keiko Ohara on the show since we kicked off in March, 2021, and I also wanted to have Junko Ohara on the show too. Keiko is mother to Junko and they are a mum and daughter lawyer team in Tokyo, both are working as mothers and working as lawyers in their respective firms.

It was Juko who came up with the brilliant idea to have both mum and daughter on the show together and so here we are. So I'm really excited to introduce you to both of them. Let me start with Keiko Ohara. Keiko Ohara is founder and partner at Kamiyacho International Law Office, where she has been for 22 years since the year, 2000.

Prior to that, she was in the Tokyo office of Komatsu, Koma & Nishikawa and at Weil Gotshal & Manges in New York in the early nineties, Keiko's firm focuses on representing foreign companies investing and doing business in Japan. She also assists Japanese companies doing business with foreign companies. She helps clients with general corporate matters, M&A, commercial contracts, employment matters, dispute resolution, regulatory compliance, and corporate governance.

Her firm's strength is in understanding the client's entire business process from various angles. And she provides advice and guidance that is able to increase corporate value as a whole, not just on resolving standalone issues. Her firm managers work in English and in Japanese and with five attorneys, it's a smaller kind of office in Tokyo, in the legal scene here, but I believe small is great.

And in Keiko's case, her lawyers are all very experienced in representing international clients and working closely with clients’ general counsel and their business team members. Keiko's also very busy in her activities as outside independent director at two companies, Financial Products Group Co., Ltd., and Fujikyuko Co., Ltd.

And she's also an independent statutory auditor at Taisei Corporation, and auditor at the NGO; Save the Children in Japan. She's a fully business person with the bar activities as well, sitting on the Committee of Foreign Lawyers and International Legal Practice at the Japan Federation of Bar Associations.

And she's on the committee on foreign special members and international legal practice at the Daiichi Tokyo Bar Association. That's the same bar association I'm a member at. Keiko qualified as a Bengoshi attorney at Law in Japan in 1988, and as a New York State Attorney at Law in 1993. She has a BA in economics and an LLB in Law from Keio University and achieved her LLM from Harvard Law School.

Wow. Moving over to Junko Ohara, she's also a Japanese lawyer, a Bengoshi. She attended Keio University, just like her mum. She got her LLB there, but then she did her JED at Hitotsubashi University Law School . Followed by the Legal Research and Training Institution of the Supreme Court of Japan. After qualifying as a lawyer in 2017, she joined Freshfields Tokyo office and is now working there as an associate.

She's a member of the global transaction team and specialises in general corporate work. In particular, she's involved in cross-border public and private M&A. Junko also advises on commercial and real estate transactions and helps international clients navigate and understand this Japanese market. She's also assisting clients on equity based compensation schemes, and compliance issues, including anti-bribery sanctions and data protection laws. Junko’s got a strong interest in pro bono as well, and she's been a really active member in activities to protect children and LGBTQ rights in Japan.

She's also a mother, she has a daughter and a dog. Both of them happen to be one years of age. And so, well, I can't wait to get started after those great introductions. Keiko and Junko, welcome to the show.

Keiko: Hi, Catherine. Thank you so much for having us today. It is such a pleasure. 

Catherine: Thanks, Keiko.

Junko: I'm a big fan of your podcast and I'm so excited to be here today. Thank you for inviting us, Catherine.

Catherine: Thanks, Junko. And so if we were going to be meeting up in person, and I really think we need to do that to celebrate today, where would we go to? Would we go together somewhere to one of your favourite restaurants and bars or cafes, or would we go separately to different places? 

Keiko: Well, if I go first, I mean, if I have great company, I can be anywhere with a nice glass of Chardonnay. Oaky Chardonnay. 

Catherine: Junko. How about you?

Junko: So my favourite restaurant is Bolt in the Kagurazaka area. And it is a bistro and wine bar near Ushigomekagurazaka station and the dishes are so great and they have a variety of glass wine, and I will choose a cold glass of Sauvignon Blanc.

Catherine: Oh, and where's the Sauvignon Blanc from Junko? No hinting that it could be a New Zealand one of course,

Junko: Yes. The one I love is called Cloudy Bay, which is a New Zealand white wine.

Catherine: Sure is, premier wine from New Zealand. That's right. And so I've got another fun question for you both, which is, if you were an animal, so Junko, if your mum was an animal, what kind of animal would she be and why? And then I wanna ask Keiko the same.

Junko: So, this is a really interesting question. And I was thinking of what kind of animal she is. And I would say she's like a tuna, like a big fish, and tuna is constantly swimming and if it stops swimming, then it will suffocate and die. And she's like a tuna and constantly moving forward doing something and likes keeping herself busy.

So I'll describe her like that.

Catherine: That's fantastic. Wow.

Keiko: That is an amazing answer cause. But I don't know if it's a compliment though.

Junko: But it's true, actually.

Catherine: I mean, a fish in water is just so used to where they are in their environment. They go exploring, but they keep on going. New environments, new places to go. I love that.

Keiko: Wow. That's amazing. But, you know, I was trying to think of an animal for Junko and I just kept thinking about being aggressive, active, positive, fun to be with, fearless, gutsy, rebellious party person. I mean, what's that animal? I mean, I couldn't get the answer, so, I'm sorry.

Catherine: Like a tiger.

Keiko: I failed this question.

Catherine: No, I feel like a tiger. Like she's out there.

Keiko: I was thinking about tiger, but I don't know if a tiger likes to party. I wasn't sure.

Catherine: Sure. 

Junko: That's not a compliment at all.

Keiko: Oh, really? Okay. So we're even.

Catherine: I think in this case, perhaps you mean social, like really a social butterfly?

Keiko: Yeah. 

Junko: I'm like that person. Yeah.

Keiko: She's very social. 

Catherine: Oh, very interesting. I'm often called a cheetah, which is like just fast, going for it, you know, hardly stops. So it's maybe like a tuna. Well, okay. That's so cool. I just, you know, at the beginning I talked about your careers and everything, and I've spoken a lot about that, but I do have some follow up questions, so I think it'd be good to get into those.

So Keiko, I've gotta go to you first because you know, I wanted to know, when you were young, maybe you wanted to be a lawyer or not. When did that come up for you to be a lawyer? What did you wanna be when you grew up?

Keiko: Okay. So the biggest impact during my childhood was that I moved to LA when I was age nine. My father was transferred in his company to LA office. And I was there until I was 12 years old. And that was such a huge shock. I mean, I was in Japan the whole time. I didn't know the alphabet, I couldn't speak English obviously.

And I was just like put into a US school and I felt like I'm a diplomat representing Japan without really having the command of English. But then I met a lot of kind people. And at the time I was coming back, I thought, okay, I'm going to be engaged in work that bridges the communications between Japan and US and other foreign countries.

So that was the goal I had. And I was looking for a job that could fulfill that aspiration.

Catherine: But your dad was not a lawyer?

Keiko: No, he was a salaried worker for a Japanese company.

Catherine: Age nine would be really at the time where you can remember things so well, as you know, you're not young enough to sort of know you were in a foreign country, but nine, you can really remember things.

Keiko: Yeah, absolutely.

Catherine: Oh, what about you, Junko? Is there something from your childhood memory you can recall, maybe about your mum or growing up and seeing her as her tuna, you know, and out there pushing and doing things.

What did you think?

Junko: I was interested in an international job because probably because since I was an elementary school kid, we went on a family trip to Europe and Switzerland, France, Italy, Spain, and meeting with people there and absorbed in completely different cultures and mindset was very, very interesting to me and at the same time very inspiring to me.

So those experiences made me think that I really want to work in an international environment. And, you know, my mother is an international lawyer, so that came to me that probably international lawyer would be also the way.

Catherine: Right. So that was an influence on you that you saw your mum carrying out her daily life as a lawyer. And that was an impact on you. What was it about that, that you thought? Is it just knowing that she did international work or was there something that made you think about what your mum was doing and the way she was doing it that made you wanna be a lawyer?

Junko: So I was constantly seeing her speaking English and working as a lawyer and doing international work. I thought that that's really cool of my mum, you know, speaking English and doing her job. But when I was a small kid, I wanted to become a cashier at the supermarket because it just looked so cool to just pick the products up and scan the barcode.

But after thinking of my career around 11 and 12, I began to think that since both of my parents are lawyers, I would probably become one. And lawyers were almost the only example around me. And when I was 12, we wrote an essay titled Diary of Myself in 20 Years. And I wrote that I would become an international lawyer and travel around the world. But at that time, I didn't really have a concrete image of what I would be in the future. But after joining law school and studying law properly, I came to think that law is really interesting and it is a really good weapon for women to specialise in law and can advise law to people and we can actually help people.

So I thought that the lawyer's career is really great. And that's why I'm here now.

Catherine: Fantastic. Hey Keiko, did you know that Junko thought you were cool?

Keiko: No, absolutely. No, I thought she was critical of me because I was a tuna, you know, not spending enough time at home and doing the things I'm supposed to do as a mum. So, I'm very surprised and I'm very nicely surprised. Yes.

Catherine: Yeah. It makes you feel good. Doesn't it? That's so good. Wow. And Keiko you then maybe influenced by what your dad had done, you decided to go to the States yourself after working in Japan. What led you to do that, after working in the law firm in Tokyo for a while?

Keiko: It was common at the time for Japanese lawyers working in Japanese international law firms to go to study abroad, and go to a foreign law school for a year and then to work in a foreign law firm for a year. But what was not so common about me was that I was taking Junko, who was one year and four months old. At the time, I was still married, and so my ex-husband and Junko, and I went to Boston when she was one year and four months old. And it was very, very tough in that, you know, she had to go to a daycare centre from day one.

Catherine: Mm.

Keiko: So that was quite different maybe at that time.

Catherine: Sounds a little similar to you when you went and your dad had you in school and you didn't have any English. And I'm not sure, did Junko have any English at one year, four months?

Junko: I was one year and four months, so I didn't really speak, but after a year, I came to speak English, quite fluently. But after coming back to Japan and all my life after that is in Japan. So my English language ability just disappeared. And my English now today is because of the Japanese English lessons from the teachers.

Catherine: Yeah. Well, it sounds like you do speak English, so don't run yourself down right there. So what happened there, Keiko? You went over to the States with your one year, four month old daughter. I dunno how you did that. Maybe looking back, you wonder how you did it yourself, but what happened after that?

Keiko: We entered the upper law school for a year and then to New York and we were living in the middle of Midtown. I would be taking my Junko to the daycare centre on park avenue and sixth, walking by Bulgaris and those branch shops and I worked at Weil Gotshal, which was I think it was 59th or 60th and right across the street from Central Park.

So we had a great city life, but we were lucky to have a very nice babysitter. We enjoyed it there, but it was quite an experience. It was great fun.

Catherine: Was it just the one year you were there?

Keiko: In New York. Yes. One year in Boston, one year in New York. So it was a total of two years.

Catherine: So during the New York time, is that when you took the New York bar? 

Keiko: Yes. I took the New York bar when I was in New York. I mean, right after I graduated from Harvard LLM, we took the bar, the New York bar. Everybody took the New York bar.

Catherine: Yeah. Right. Okay. And so when you came back to Japan Keiko, did you set up your own firm then? Straight away.

Keiko: No, no, no. I went back to the previous firm, and I became a junior partner, and then in like seven years, I left the previous firm for my own firm.

Catherine: Right. And so what led you to be your own boss?

Keiko: Several things, I was a junior partner in my previous firm, but you know, you're not a senior partner, so you don't get to really decide on the management decisions. And then at the same time, you’re not an associate. So, associates treat you like you're a partner. So it was sort of like in being in the middle.

So it wasn't that easy. So I thought, okay, why don't I just jump off the cliff and open my own firm and decide the things I want to decide on, which was a very brave, I think, courageous thing to do looking back because I opened my law firm in 2000 and Junko was, I think, fourth or fifth grade, fourth grade.

And then my son was like two years old and then I got divorced at the end of the year, 2000. So everything was happening and busy at that time. And I had to run my new office plan and get clients and work and borrow money and all that kind of stuff going on at the same time that I had to take care of a toddler and take care of Junko and everything else.

So I don't know how I did it, but I'm glad I did it. And thanks to my mother and my parents who were helping out a lot. It was a very busy time.

Catherine: That's a lot. And does it mean that now you've done that, nothing else after that is a challenge, as much as a challenge as it was then, you know, you've gone through into the deep end?

Keiko: Emotionally, it was a very tough time. I don't know. I did my best, but maybe looking from the outside, maybe it was far from being satisfactory, but I think emotionally it was the toughest time.

Catherine: Yeah, Junko observing your mum then, can you recall anything, you know, how did it feel when you heard she was gonna go set up her own business? Anything you wanna say to her?

Junko: At that time I was 10 or 11 and I didn't really understand what it is like to run her own business. And I knew that she had been constantly busy and probably she will be after setting up her own firm. So for me, it doesn't seem different to me actually, probably she's under a lot of pressure at the time, but she was probably hiding very well and she didn't show she's really, really stressed at the time.

Catherine: Mm. So there you go. I mean, Keiko, it felt like that internally, but externally it actually wasn't that obvious or you managed to cope quite well there. And it's interesting that Junko is at the same age that you were roundabout when you went to America with your dad. So it's a time when you do actually remember in your life, I think, things that went on.

Keiko, if you could go back and think about yourself when you were younger, is there anything you would change or do differently or tell yourself in that sort of younger age group?

Keiko: Yeah. I talk about this a lot with Junko. I was the only daughter of my parents. And my mother was an English teacher, but she left work and she was a stay home mum. So my parents took good care of me and they were very strict, they had rules. So it was a different time. So I had to come home by a certain hour, I couldn't sleep over, all these rules. Right? So if I go out with a boy, they were like, I have to come home early, things like that. I think, you'll think that it's like ages ago, but it was, I'm still alive. So it's not that long ago. Anyway, so I wish I had been more rebellious, maybe not, that's not the right word.

Catherine: Not climbing out the window, not climbing out the window to go and see some guys. 

Keiko: I was pretty obedient. So, I wish I was more adventurous. Yeah, we talk about that a lot because my mother, who is the one who brought me up, my Junko tells me that she is so used to your mum being so obedient that I'm being kind of like looked at like a very bad daughter by not complying with all the rules that she'd like to set up, that I'd like to set up as well.

Catherine: Junko.

Junko: Yes indeed. So she was a good girl for my grandmother. And, you know, because both of my parents were working, I was basically raised by my grandmother and grandfather. And they are so strict and they just put all the rules that they did for my mother. And as she mentioned, we cannot sleep over and everything was quite restricted and I was pretty rebellious actually.

And so I had a lot of fights with my grandparents and my mother about that. And I was so sick and tired of all the rules.

Catherine: Mmm.

Junko: That was a pretty tough time because, you know, for my grandmother, I am like a baby sister to Keiko. So she liked to raise me as she did for my mother. And it was a really high expectation for me, maybe too much.

So because her personality is so different from me and my mother, I really wanted my grandmother to understand that I'm a different person from Keiko.

Catherine: Mmm.

Keiko: You know, I used to get calls at the office from my mother, Junko is doing this, what are we going to do about this? You know? So that happened once in a while.

Catherine: Keiko, were you a little bit more lenient though? It sounds like maybe you may have been and didn't want quite the same for Junko as you had.

Keiko: Well, I think that's probably something a wise person would do. But you have to understand, I mean, I was worried about Junko a lot because I wasn't home all the time. And also I was relying on my mother to be the person to take care of her during the day. So I thought that I should respect her style because she is the babysitter.

So, I mean, I don't tell her to do things when she's taking care of my daughter. So I did have some, I don't know, I was like reserved to my mother for taking her style.

So, sorry about that.

Junko: Actually, it was a lot of pressure at the time and you know, all of my family had high expectations of me. They wanted me to be a good girl and become a lawyer just like them. And I hated that so much. And when I was in law school, I actually escaped from my home without a mobile phone. I just couldn't stay in my home.

And after that, I moved to a place. And I moved to an apartment by myself. I lived by myself for a couple of years because you know, at that time I didn't have a qualification. I didn't pass the bar exam and I had no guarantee in the future. So there was no, you know, room for me in my heart at that time.

And there was constant pressure from my family. I felt like I couldn't stay in the family's home, but now I'm really grateful that I have this kind of, you know, environment and I'm really, truly, truly grateful for that.

Keiko: And I'm very surprised to hear that Junko was under so much pressure because, you know, I don't regard myself as the smartest lawyer or anything like that. And I had trouble passing the bar and I could understand her struggle. So I wanted to support, I wanted her to pass the bar, but I didn't understand that having a lawyer who passed the bar and you know, doing well in work is itself a pressure to her, so I didn't realise that until now.

Catherine: Mm. So what's the important thing you learned from all that Junko then? You know, going through that, and now you are a mum. So tell me about that.

Junko: Yeah. Now I have a one year old baby. And we do a similar kind of work. And she is also a good mentor for me. And as a mother of a young child myself, now I understand how hard it was to raise kids and have a career and balance the work and life. So I think that we all struggled at the time but can now understand their struggle and my mother’s struggle and I feel guilty when I go back home or when I leave home to see my baby off.

To summarise, I'm truly grateful for my mother.

Catherine: It's lovely. Cuz we are on screen. We're not gonna be on screen for this, but just seeing the reactions between you both is really delightful. And I'm sure it's bringing up some memories and also closing off some that you didn't know about before. Keiko, anything you wanted to add?

Keiko: I just realised, what I learned by bringing up Junko and my son is that, you know, when I was a child, I thought my mother was like a complete grown up, like a big wall, and making decisions that probably are right. But then when I became a mother, I'm so immature, you know, trial and error and I make mistakes and I don't know what to do.

And I have my personal feelings, my life. So everything was so undecided. And it was trial and error. So I think when Junko felt that I'm a pressure or I'm all established and everything, it wasn't at all. And I think Junko will experience that when she brings up her daughter.

Catherine: We don't know until we look back and we connect the dots then. Right? At the time we don't know. So how then Keiko, have those sorts of traits or personalities or strengths now work through to help you in the kind of work that you do?

You know, endurance and all the other things that you are doing, how are they helping you now in your work and to be successful in your life right now? Have they continued through, has anything changed there?

Keiko: I became independent. I opened my own firm pretty early on. I mean, not that early, but you know, after 12 years of experience, I had to be on my own to represent clients, and represent the firm. So I felt very responsible, but then I was also very responsible for my kids.

Right? I had to bring in money. I had to take care of them. I had to send them to school, good schools. I mean, all that responsibility made me maybe a severe management person. I think I was pretty aggressive about the way I do my work and deal with clients because I am sacrificing my precious time that I can do otherwise.

You know, there are many things I could do other than work. So I have to be serious. Clients have to be serious. That's the way I felt about my work. And also the second thing is I felt like I've been a minority since I was a small child. When I went to LA, you know, I was the only Japanese in class.

Even after coming back to Japan, my father was transferred a lot to different places in Japan. So I was always the new kid in the school or new kid in class. So I always had to mingle into the preexisting groups of friends so I feel like I've been a minority and being a woman in a law school or law firm, I was a minority.

So I'm used to it. So I'm not that reserved. I say what I think. You know, at the end of the day, what am I gonna lose? Right? So that's the attitude I had and that helped me.

Catherine: Right, Junko, is any of that new for you?

Junko: It is actually. I didn't know that your work attitude is influenced by you sacrificing your time, family time. And it is really inspiring. Actually, I feel the same way, because at the end of the day, we all have 24 hours a day. And so we need to prioritise work and family time and others.

And it is so important to have control over your life. And yes, it is really inspiring.

Catherine: Wow. And so Junko for you, what would be the biggest challenge in your work right now, without going into big details? And also the things that you think are necessary for a lawyer to be able to do their kind of work, after hearing your mum, what do you think?

Junko: So as I said, balancing work and family time is a bit challenging to me because our head office is in London and we have lots of European deals. So our clients are mostly located in European countries. And because of that time difference between Japan and Europe, work generally gets busy after 5:00 PM in Japan. And that time is a core hour for taking care of the kids. And that is really challenging for me, but our firm is so supportive and I now have an arrangement that between 5:30 to 9:30, I can fully concentrate on taking care of my kids and coming back to work after 9:30, and that flexibility I really appreciate. 

But thinking of how I pursue a partner track or if I want to become a partner, I'll have to adjust these timelines. And I have to think about how to not decrease the working time compared to other lawyers.

Catherine: Right. And how did you negotiate that 5:30, 9:30 timeframe? Did others do it as well? Or did you just manage to have some bravery and ask for that? Tell me about that.

Junko: Our Tokyo office is relatively small and our team is really open for communication. So when I came back from maternity leave, I had a discussion with the partners and at first, we had a fixed time arrangement, so I didn't have to work after 5:30. So that was the original fixed time arrangement.

But that didn't actually work because of the reason I described before. And so I need to be back online after 9:30 for many days. So I came back to being a full-time associate. But I wanted to continue taking care of my kids at least for a few hours in the evening.

So I had a discussion with the partners and they are welcoming me for having this kind of conversation. And so I'm very grateful for that.

Catherine: Are you one of the few associates who has had maternity leave and come back?

Junko: Actually, yes. So, in my team, I'm the only female associate who has a kid and all other lawyers are male without kids. And so that's a bit challenging for me, but all the people are so supportive and they can cover during my absence. So I'm very comfortable.

Catherine: I hope you're a role model for others in the future, to be able to do exactly what you've done. I mean, you've gone out, come back. When you came back from maternity leave, it didn't quite work. So you came up with another idea and it's working nicely now. That's really very, very interesting.

Keiko, did anything like that happen to you? Or how does it sound to know how Junko's doing the arrangement of her work? It must be pretty much something that you might be proud of. Tell me what you think about that, and arranging life, and how you do that now for yourself because you are involved in many other activities outside of the office quite a lot.

So I'm not sure how you're managing your time. How are you doing all of that?

Keiko: As for Junko, I had a lot of help from my mother who was a stay home mum. So I feel kind of bad that I can't be the same as my mother was to me. But I think in this time period, all mothers are working. So I think this is what you have to face. So I think Junko is doing a good job, and I support her and I'd like to as much as possible. 

So that's how I feel about it. 

And about me, now that Junko is a grown up, she's on her own and my son is already working. So I have more time now. I used to be busy with all the other work. So I can do all the other activities, which is great.

I'm learning new things every time and I get to meet a lot of people. It's a great experience. And maybe I should mention about the other activities

Catherine: Yes, please do. Cuz I did want everyone to hear a little bit more about that. You've got these two director roles, but also two auditor roles, and that's pretty busy as well as all your bar activities. Why do you do these and why are they so important to you?

Keiko: I'll first talk about the bar activities. I wasn't at all interested in bar activities. I had no intention of doing it, but then one of the, somebody, maybe it was a partner, somebody that I knew who was senior to me, just invited me over, that I should participate. And that was the start.

And once you get in, you can never get out. But then I am very thankful that I did the bar activities because it's so important for lawyers, even if you're in a big law firm. It’s not to that extent, it's not like a, you know, Mitsubishi corporation. It's a small, small organisation, right?

So I think you should go out to the bar association, discuss what lawyers are, what lawyers' rules are, what your worries are, with your peers that are not in your firm. They can inspire you. And there's lots of things you learn from bar activities. And especially the work I did that had to deal with comparing the legal system of Japan and other countries.

I had to think and learn a lot about the core values of a lawyer, which really helped me in my being a lawyer myself in the daily practice, because I learned that independence is the core, most important value of a lawyer. You don't give into power, favours money, your interest, any other interest of the client, that is the core value of an attorney. So that's why the attorney system is universal. 

Now those are the things that I would not have even thought about if I had practised just my daily work. So I'm very thankful for that and thankful to all the peers that were there to help me understand and also discuss all these issues.

And then secondly, about the outside directorship auditor, that is also something I wasn't that much intending to go into, but there was some introduction I started with one company and it was an eye opening experience so that it was a completely different atmosphere sitting in the boardroom.

You're not an outsider attorney just giving some opinions from outside, but you're within the organisation making decisions with all these business conditions and shareholders, activists, and employees. I mean, everybody talks about stakeholders, but you know, worrying about all these stakeholders is the most difficult thing to do.

And also, secondly, it was hard to speak up at the board meetings. I was bragging about being independent and I'm not reserved and all that, but I sat on the board and I'm like, should I say this? Or should I just keep quiet? You know, that was like the beginning of my experience as a board member.

And I learned how to be, not to be too inquisitive, or not understanding the background of how this agenda came up. I need to be more understanding and careful about what I say at these meetings. So that has helped me a lot to learn more about the inside of the client. You know what I mean?

Catherine: I do. Yeah. I mean, and also that balance you're saying between not being too inquisitive yet, still being able to ask the right questions to help the business and help those stakeholders.

Keiko: Absolutely. Absolutely. But the way to help is the most difficult, the way you help the company. How do you do it? It’s the most difficult question that I need to answer.

Catherine: And did one of those outside director roles then lead to the next director role in the statutory auditor and auditor roles? Or were they sort of coming at different times of your life when you were open for them? How did they all sort of come together for you?

Keiko: Oh, so it was an introduction. One brings to another, so like, oh, she's on the board. Maybe she's interested in doing our company or something like that. So it does, one leads to another kind of situation.

Catherine: And being so busy though. How do you keep yourself organised? Are there any kind of tools that you use in your business to keep you on track? Like do you use Slack or do you use some other kind of tech tool or other kind of even practical paper based tool to help you keep on top of all of these things?

Keiko: You can see that I'm not a very well organised person with papers, but I can say I'm not a high tech person. Of course, I use the computer. I mean, I do use the computers and online meetings and all that, but we have the greatest assistant secretary in our office.

They're like the most precious, I shouldn't say tool, but there are amazing people that we have in our firm that've been a great help to me. And I've been working with them for more than 20 years, so they know.

Catherine: They know you and they can almost see what you're about to say or about to do, and predict what's coming. It's great when you've got people like that. And how about for you Junko and your busy office? Do you have someone who helps you or other things that you have as a hack to your busy daily life?

Junko: Basically, I work from home right now, so that I don't have to commute. I don't have to do makeup and you know, that can save quite a lot of time. So, that's why I like working from home because I have time restrictions. 

And the other hack, maybe hire a person to do the housework or take care of the kids. For example, a babysitter. And we also asked someone to come to our house once a week. Today is actually the day she cooked various meals for the week so that I don't have to cook. And I just microwave that food for lunch and dinner. So that's saved a lot of time for us and we have a lot of various services available for working mums and working families.

So I would recommend that maybe try these services.

Catherine: That's so great. I mean, I'd cook all my meals on a Sunday for the week.

Junko: Oh my gosh.

Catherine: It's the only claim to fame I've got on being organised, but it is so good because I know what's there. And when I go to prep, it's all sort of ready and it's really a reheating or a putting together of several things to make the dish.

And it just makes so much of a difference to be organised on food. Yes, it's a lot of work to do on a Sunday, but I get up pretty early and do that. And then it's done by 1:00 PM and it's a lot of work. And then after that, I'll switch off. Everything's in the fridge waiting for the week.

So today I know what I'm having for lunch and dinner in the week. Right? So it's something I never did before until January 2021, I got myself organised. So for the last year and a half, I've been organised in the food business. So I recommend that. My goodness. That's interesting. Gosh, if you could do something completely different though, Junko, if you were not a lawyer, like you could start your own business doing something, what would that be?

Junko: Because I'm keen to protect children's rights and LGBTQ rights, I would like to be involved in NGOs and coming up with new business or new initiatives, and that kind of work, I'm very, very interested in.

Catherine: Yeah, that's really good. And your mum, you know, Keiko is doing the NGO for Save the Children. Keiko for you, you also mentioned if you weren't working, there'd be so many other things you'd love to do. Right? If we weren't working, there'd be a lot of things we could do. How about you?

Keiko: I mean, if I was able to do another profession now, I'd like to become a musician. I want to play the piano, learn that and I used to take lessons, so I want to go back if I could. But I mean, that's something that would be interesting to do.

Catherine: It's very interesting. My accountant has a piano studio in her office and her sister teaches piano there.

Keiko: Oh.

Catherine: And I think in her free time, she also just slips into the room and has that kind of practice session as well. So maybe that's something to do. Very interesting. Let's switch then to talking about the future of law from both of your perspectives.

So Keiko, what sort of ideas and thoughts or visions do you have for what's coming up in the field of law right now? There are lots of things happening out there. Things that boards are thinking about. But what about from your perspective in the next three, or five years or so? What do you see happening?

Keiko: I don't have that much confidence in envisioning what's gonna happen in 35 years for a lawyer's job, but I'm feeling that you know, a lot of the work, I mean, certain areas of work will probably be taken over by an AI, right? So, I mean, they can probably do a better job picking up certain issues and words and stuff like that. But more and more so, people need advice from trusted lawyers, you know, someone you can really trust and you can talk to from your heart.

And that would be maybe in the context of just daily legal advice or dispute settings. And AI cannot do that because you have to be convinced that you're making the right decisions and you trust the person that's advising you. So I think more and more so, the lawyers are going to be asked to have the skills of talking to people, persuading people, understanding how they feel, and giving the right advice. So that's a skill that is very difficult to develop, but I think that's gonna become more and more important.

Catherine: Yeah, so true. I mean, that's something that AI, I can't see it happening. Maybe someone can invent a robot that does that, but I can't imagine that because that's why we're humans. And I don't know if you've ever read the book, the trusted advisor. It's a book about lawyers being trusted advisors, and it talks about this.

These are the kinds of skills that just won't be taken away. Where do you find that human heart, that experience, the feelings? Those are really important things. And you need those, don't you, for talking with clients. Holding their hand. Sometimes it may not even be legal advice, just making them feel okay and safe, to do the next step.

Junko, I'm interested to hear what you think too about this.

Junko: I think flexibility is really, really important in the future because the world is rapidly changing every day. And, for example, the Russian invasion and new legal issues come up every day. So we need to be very flexible in terms of new areas of law and for example, sanctions and distrust M&A, for example.

So we need to be keen to the changes, social changes, and to be able to accommodate those new changes and be specialised in those kinds of skills is really necessary I think.

Catherine: I think this might be related to that, but if you could move out any kind of barrier or restraint from a legal project that you are doing, what would you want to be known for as your contribution to that project?

Junko: Probably, I would like them to remember me as a trusted advisor. Oh, she can be trusted. She’s worth trusting. And if new issues come up then, okay, let's talk to Junko. And that’s the kind of lawyer I want to be.

Catherine: Yeah, I love that. Keiko, how about for you?

Keiko: I agree with her completely. So I want the clients to think, I can trust her and I can trust the advice she gives because she's thinking about me as a client first and nothing else.

Catherine: Mm. Even though you've got other clients, right? That person, that particular client, thinks that you are just thinking about them at that moment, right?

Keiko: Oh, absolutely. I mean, even if you have a hundred thousand clients, if you're working on one client, that's your client. So, I mean, just do the best for that. But that doesn't mean that you're going to be nice to them or give them the advice they like, but what's really good for them, you know, think hard about that.

Catherine: Yeah. Well, Keiko and Junko, anything today that we didn't cover, that you really wanted to talk about, that we didn't mention or something else you did mention that you'd like to elaborate on?

Keiko: I think we talked a lot about ourselves.

Catherine: Is there anything then Keiko, that Junko said about you or vice versa that, you know, you heard that you hadn't heard before that surprised you today? Something you've learned from today.

Keiko: Yeah. I didn't know she thought I was cool.

Catherine: Yeah. There you go. You need a badge mate, I'm cool. Junko told me.

Keiko: I’m a cool mum.

Catherine: Cool mum. Yeah.

Junko: Yeah, for me, we talked a lot, like we are constantly talking every week and catching up with each other, but speaking with, Catherine, you today, it is very, really interesting. And at the same time, I didn't know what she thought at that time. So it is cool. This whole podcast is so cool.

Catherine: Thank you for your really super idea today to bring us all together. So let's wind down then with the fun questions at the end, which I hope you'll really like. And the first one is if you won a million yen today, what would you spend it on tomorrow? What would you do with it Junko?

Junko: I would use it to go on an expensive family trip to the Maldives.

Catherine: Oh, nice. Have some relaxation.

Junko: Yes.

Catherine: Maldives, nice. Keiko what would you do?

Keiko: I would invite my relatives that I haven’t met for a while and all of them for a nice dinner together for a memorable evening because we hadn't had a chance to talk to them.

Catherine: No, yeah, it's been a while. Hasn't it? That's wonderful. If you could live anywhere in the world then Keiko, where would it be?

Keiko: Lugano, Switzerland.

Catherine: Switzerland. Why's that?

Keiko: We go there a lot during the summer. It's a beautiful city. It's just very small, quiet, but lots of good food and a nice lake and not too hot. It's sunny. Maybe not during the winter, but just during the summer.

Catherine: During the summer. And Junko, how about you?

Junko: I love to live in Brazil or Chile or other Latino countries. I've never been there actually, but I like the Latino vibes and I really want to spend time there.

Catherine: Well, Keiko, what do you think?

Keiko: I didn't know that. So I just learned today that she wanted to move to Brazil.

Catherine: There you go. Branch offers about to happen. Who knows? Keiko if you could write a book tomorrow, what would you write a book about? Do you wanna write a book actually?

Keiko: I'm not sure. Maybe when I'm 80 years old I should divulge everything about what happened in my life, but not yet. 

Catherine: It's sort of like a biography, autobiography.

Keiko: Yes.

Catherine: Or memoir.

Keiko: Yeah.

Catherine: Junko, what about you? Or if there was something out there that talked about Junko, what would it be that they talked about from your perspective? I know it's hard talking about yourself. 

Junko: Yeah, I would say that I would like to write a novel, if I were asked. And you know, I'm a six year associate and professionally and personally I don't have much experience and I don't have much to write. I’m in an early stage of my life. So I would say I would like to write a criminal novel. I like criminal novels and mysteries and I would do that.

Catherine: Right. Is there any book that you can recommend that you've read that's on that topic or any other topic. Or it could be a podcast you've listened to that you'd like to recommend.

Junko: I recently liked reading, not a novel, but my favourite one is Becoming by Michelle Obama.

That was pretty inspiring. She herself was a lawyer and after marrying Barack, she did several community works and that is pretty inspiring to me. So I really recommend that book.

Catherine: Yeah. It's amazing. I've read the book and she goes out and finds those community activities to do. I mean, she could have just stopped and thought, you know, I'm married to this guy and he's gonna be president and just not done that, but she kept going and did those activities. 

Keiko, is there anything that you've got in your reading, or podcast, or movie that you've seen, that you really recommend others to have a look at or read or listen to?

Keiko: Regarding podcasts, because I do outside director work, Boardroom Governance with Evan Epstein. That's really fun to hear because it usually focuses on governance experts, and it's kind of nice to listen to. That’s because I’m interested in board governance issues.

Catherine: Yeah. I just downloaded that 

Keiko: And the book that, maybe I read twice or three times recently, is Viktor Frankl, and this is a very serious book, Man’s Search for Meaning. But it was kind of an eye opener for me because it tells you not to expect things in your life. Your obligation is to think about what life expects of you.

So you can be lucky, you can be unlucky. I mean, you can be in very different conditions, everybody in the world, but you don't envy other people or whatever, but what can you do given your conditions? What are you supposed to do?

Catherine: Didn't he write that after having been in…

Keiko: In Auschwitz, right.

Catherine: I read about that book in the weekend we've just had, I can't believe that you've brought that book up.

Keiko: Really? Oh, wow.

Catherine: That's the one I wanna go and read because he talks about the meaning of life, not about happiness, right? 

Keiko: No. 

Catherine: About things that happen to you in your life and what they can do to bring you meaning.

And that meaning is much more long term than happiness, which is really just in the moment. My goodness. I can't believe you said that book. That's the one I've actually got ready to order. That's amazing.

Keiko: And I listen to audiobooks sometimes, it's fun. And my favourite is Oscar Wilde, The Importance of Being Earnest. That's the funniest play.

It's really funny. 

Catherine: I have to admit to not having listened to that. I will have to do that.

Well, is there someone famous Junko, who you would like to meet or have already met in your past?

Junko: Maybe you'll laugh but I’d love to meet Britney Spears and congratulate her on her wedding.

Catherine: Yeah. That's not what I was expecting, but that's great. Congratulate her on her wedding.

Junko: I was a big fan of Britney.

Catherine: When you're growing up?

Keiko: Oh.

Junko: Yeah. When I was a high school kid.

Catherine: Yeah. She was a bit rebellious too. Is that where you got it from?

Junko: Lots of stuff happening.

Catherine: ah, interesting. Keiko how about you? Anyone famous you'd like to see or have already met cuz you are a celeb yourself actually.

So maybe you've met a few people along the way.

Keiko: No, no, no. I think this would be a very unexpected answer, but I'd like to sit down all day and talk to my late grandfather because I respect him a lot. He's my mother's father. Since I was still very young, I didn't get to talk to him about his life, his values and his way of living.

And I wish I could do that now.

Catherine: Oh, I love that.

Junko: What a good answer.

Keiko: I know, see the difference between Junko and me. Britney Spears and my late grandfather.

Catherine: All right. That's amazing. And so Keiko, something about you that nobody knows? Well, not a lot of people know. And maybe Junko doesn't know something about you. We've already heard a few things today.

Keiko: I'm timid and shy and people go, oh, really?

Catherine: Okay. Junko, you?

Junko: Okay. So I could drink 15 shots of tequila one night.

Keiko: Oh no. Oh no. My son had eight shots of tequila last week and he was like dead.

Catherine: Well, your Junko seems to be stronger.

Keiko: Oh, much stronger. She has the genes.

Catherine: The older sister's much stronger. Wow. Goodness me. And just a bonus question at the end here Keiko is something that you are now very deeply grateful for. 

Junko: I'm very grateful for my husband. He's also a lawyer and very busy with work, but he's fully committed to taking care of my kids. So I'm very thankful for him and without his support, I cannot be here today.

Keiko: Oh, I'm thankful. I mean, similar, but I'm thankful to all the people that have supported me throughout my life. My parents, my grandparents, my children, and friends, you know, people that I have just run into in my life. They have given me all sorts of precious things that form me. So that's what I'm thankful for.

Catherine: Wow. That's lovely. Thank you so much Keiko and Junko for today, we've come to the end of our chat. It's gone so fast, but you've really been brilliant and brave to come on as our first mother and daughter lawyer team. Yay. It's been such a pleasure to speak with you both.

Keiko: Yeah, thank you. So it was fun. 

Junko: Yeah, it was very much fun.

Catherine: Do we know any other mother daughter teams around Tokyo who are lawyers? Hmm. I have to think there might be some other combinations.

Keiko: I'm sure there are.

Catherine: There might be, we just don't know. I know there's a father daughter team at MoFo, yeah, which is not a well known story, but that exists.

But you've been so great today, sharing your inspirational stories and ideas and tips for lawyers and just, you know, the way you are leading your careers and your lives has been very inspirational.

And to listen to you, it's really been very motivating for people who are listening to the podcast. It was so great to connect with you both in this way. And how can listeners get in touch with you or keep in touch with you? Can they do that through maybe your work email or through LinkedIn, for example, what would be the best?

Keiko: I think for me, LinkedIn is probably good.

Catherine: Okay, Keiko's LinkedIn.

Junko: I have a LinkedIn account and Facebook and Instagram, and I think our firm's website has my email address as well. So please feel free to reach out to me.

Catherine: I'll have to get on Instagram and start following you there as well. Well, thank you so much. We'll put all of that into the show notes. And so we'll finish up here. Thank you very much to my listeners who are listening in today. Please do like this episode and subscribe to Lawyer on Air so it can be heard and seen by more people out there.

You can go onto my webpage as well and leave a voicemail. And I really love it. When people get on there and record a one minute voicemail telling me what they liked about the episode. We have lots of men who've done that so far. So I'm waiting for the first female to get on there and tell me what they think in their own voice.

So please go ahead, share this episode with anybody you think will be inspired to be a lawyer extraordinaire, just like these two lovely ladies today. Thanks, everyone. That's all for now. See you on the next episode. Cheers, kampai, and bye for now.

Subscribe using your favourite podcast player.

Apple Podcasts| Spotify| Breaker| Google Podcasts| RadioPublic

We would love to hear from you!

You can record your feedback by clicking on the button below.

By recording a message you are acknowledging and agree that we may share your message with our subscribers and community on social media or other media. Thank you!

Lawyer on Air has been nominated for “Best Business Podcast” in the Quill Podcast Awards, 2022! Thank you to all our supporters who voted for the podcast!