Full transcript below.

Here it is by popular demand! Episode 10 of Lawyer on Air, featuring none other than Catherine herself in the hot seat. Who better to interview Catherine than Lawyer on Air’s very first guest - Angela Krantz. We know you are going to love this episode and make sure you listen to the end for some surprises!! 

If you enjoyed this episode and it inspired you in some way, we’d love to hear about it and know your biggest takeaway. Head over to Apple Podcasts to leave a review and we’d love it if you would leave us a message here!

In this episode you’ll hear:

• Catherine’s current favourite place in Tokyo for a celebratory drink

• How Catherine made the transition from tourism to her second career of Law

• Her transition between Tokyo and Osaka

• How Catherine runs her day as CEO of her own law firm

• Catherine’s guiding principles 

• Her advice for young lawyers as they come up the ranks 

• Her favourite podcasts, books and other fun facts 

About Catherine

Catherine hails from New Zealand and is founder and principal of her own boutique law firm in Tokyo. She provides flexible legal services to law firms, legal departments and businesses, on a project and needs-specific basis, delivered by bilingual in-house experienced lawyers. This is a pioneering unique legal solutions model in Japan. Her areas of focus include: foreign lawyer support for Japanese and international law firms in Japan, determining how, when and where a full-time, in-country legal counsel might best contribute to an in-house legal department; setting up systems and workflows, localising global templates, introducing general commercial contract governance to business, she combines her bilingual capability and deep in-house counsel experience, to act as the lead on all the in-person and written contract negotiations for client’s “business as usual” and project work. Catherine also Professional Mentorship coaching lawyers 1:1 and in Masterminds (by invitation or referral), supporting CEOs with risk and legal training, and coaching in-house legal staff and law firm associates through the her Associates Accelerator Academy.  Catherine is a multiple award winner in entrepreneurship, excellence and being a trailblazer. 

Connect with Guest Host Angela Krantz

Linked In: www.linkedin.com/in/angela-krantz-5938b311

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/angela.krantz.9

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/angelakrantz

Links

Tokyo Toranomon Edition Hotel: https://www.editionhotels.com/tokyo-toranomon 

Counsel to Counsel Podcast:https://counseltocounsel.libsyn.com/ 

Be that Lawyer: https://fretzin.com/podcast/ 

The Thought Leadership Podcast: https://thoughtleadershipleverage.com/thought-leadership-podcasts/ 

The View from Breast Pocket Mountain: https://www.karenhillanton.com/ 

More than Enough https://www.elainewelteroth.com/book 

Lead from the Outside https://www.amazon.co.jp/Lead-Outside-Build-Future-Change/dp/1250214807 

Connect with Catherine 

Linked In https://www.linkedin.com/in/oconnellcatherine/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lawyeronair

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/catherine.oconnell.148

Twitter: https://twitter.com/oconnelllawyer

Transcript

Angela: Hi everyone. My name is Angela Krantz and I have hijacked the very famous 10th episode of Catherine O'Connell's Lawyer on Air Podcast. And I'd like to welcome a very special guest today for the final session in Catherine's debut podcast series, Catherine herself. Welcome!

Catherine: Well, thank you so much, Angela.

I will give you permission to hijack this episode. Thank you so much for having me as a guest. It's rather strange having the tables turned. 

Angela: I am very excited to be here today because for those of you who've been following along with all of Catherine's guest speakers, I was actually the first speaker back when it all began. 

Catherine: That's right Angela, you were the first person who actually put their hand up and you didn't say no. You came on and you told us all about your wonderful job at Amazon. And you're super, super skilled as a lawyer. And I think we've really, you are still the top ranking episode. So really thank you for that.

We'll see what happens with episode 10, if it goes higher than episode one, but I think you did a fantastic job and really set us on the right track. Thank you very, very much. 

Angela: Thanks, Catherine. I think that may have been beginner’s luck, but I'm particularly excited today because I've managed to get some of your questions from all of your earlier podcasts.

And as you say, I'm going to turn the tables and to kick things off, I'd like to ask your starter question for all of your guests. If we were meeting up in person, do you have a favourite wine bar where you and I would be having a drink? 

Catherine: Oh, I love this question. I really do. And I think it's been a great one to ask all of the guests to get their, you know, different side of them.

And you know that I love Apero and I've been meeting lots of friends there during the pandemic and have met you there and had my first anniversary party there. But recently I've been spending a bit of time at the Tokyo Toranomon Edition Hotel. And that's, Marriott brand, their exclusive premier brand.

I just love it there. It's such a magical space. It's like walking into Narnia, but in summertime the area has like 500 plants, birds, trees, exotic species, you know, like birds of paradise. And it's designed by Kengo Kuma who designed the Olympic stadium. And I just love his work with wood and very Zen like simplicity. That said, he's also put in this dynamic sort of fabric; emerald greens and beautiful sapphire blues, these jewel colours I absolutely love. And so I would go there and I know that they are opening a gold bar, very art deco style, and I would love to go there with you and celebrate. And of course it has to be wine, but I would choose champagne. Maybe Pol Roger, or maybe a rosé. 

Angela: Absolutely. And I'm happy you recommended this bar because a number of other friends have told me how excited they’ve been, that it opened even during the pandemic.

And hopefully after this next lock down in late August, we can get together over that glass of champagne. I'm looking forward to it.

Catherine: I look forward to it too, I really do.

Angela: So on that note, let's get started with a few more serious questions. The reason I wanted to invite you onto your own podcast today is to ask you a little bit about your career, because I know we've had a lot of guests, listeners, who've been asking what your background in law is and how you got to starting your own business and where you are today.

So I know it's a really big question. But over to you because you've had a sterling career over several decades in Japan.

Catherine: Over several decades, but I'm still only 30 right? No, not quite. Yes, I will try and wind back. So essentially law is my second career. If I can say that. My first career was really in the tourism industry in New Zealand and I was a tour guide.

I worked with Mount Cook Airlines and then JTB was my big sort of sojourn into tourism. So when I left school, I didn't actually go straight to university. I remember going back to school for my last year and only staying there for a couple of weeks actually, and just thought I don't want to be here.

So I left what was the seventh form, I guess I was 17 and went to the Polytechnic. And I did a Japanese course full time for two years, but actually just prior to that, I did this tourism diploma, theIATA travel agency diploma and did a bit of Japanese part-time, really loved that. So that led me into doing Japanese full-time.

And after I graduated doing Japanese, I became this tour guide and I was so shy. I remember being very, very shy, but talking in a microphone as I am now at that time, really brought me out of my shyness. I was desperately shy. So speaking in another language, I almost became another character. I wasn't really myself.

So I could pretend to be something really, really excited and confident, right? So I did that and that led me on lots of real journeys, all around New Zealand and showing Japanese people my beautiful country. So after a time doing that, I really changed out of tourism to go to university and do law and Japanese.

And that comes about from speaking with clients and customers and studying the law. As I was doing my spiel on the buses and in limousines for Japanese tourists, they often asked me about law questions. So I got this interest in the law, left tourism and went and studied law. And then after graduating, I joined a law firm in Christchurch, New Zealand, that was just venturing into looking after Japanese companies and individuals who wanted to do business in the country. So I joined them. So I had this combination of law and Japanese fluency, which was just awesome. And after working with them for seven years, came to Japan. One of my buddies, my best buddy, Tanya, she showed me an advertisement that said, Japanese global company looking for in-house legal counsel.

And so I applied for that job and got it. I actually got interviewed in Sydney, where your family's based, Angela. I didn't know you at the time, but I flew over there for an interview, came back and I had the job offer before I came back to Christchurch. So that was awesome. Came to Japan for one year and then that's turned into 18.

So I've got a lot of other companies that I work with, but I'll just pause there for a moment because that's quite a lot so far. 

Angela: Well, there's many exciting things about that, but one thing that's very exciting for me is that you started doing something completely different from what you then started doing in Japan and even from what you're doing now.

So I think that that's really great for some of our listeners who are thinking about changing their career, whether that's into law or out of law, or they haven't quite figured out what they want to do yet. It's never too late to change and you don't have to have a completely traditional career path going to university right out of school, and then going to clerk in a little firm.

And then, you know, that very standard career progression. So if you haven't done that in your career, I think you're a really great illustration of retooling your career and figuring out what you were interested in.

Catherine: Yeah, thanks for that. I think it was something I never knew would happen.

When I was in tourism and I was bungee jumping and jet boating and landing on glaciers every week as part of my job. That was fantastic. But moving into law was something that occurred to me only because I came across people who ended up being mentors or one in particular who suggested I could probably do that.

So my advice would be to others who are probably listening and thinking about swapping, is that, always listen to those people who give you some advice or suggestions. You don't have to take all of those up, but you can do those. And then the other aspect too, is yes, there's nothing wrong with going into law and doing the traditional path, nothing at all, but it's also okay to do something else.

And I think that's the real gem that you've pulled out there. We live this life for a very short time, so we should do everything that we really want to do or think we could possibly do and give it a try.

Angela: I think the other little tidbit I got out of what you said is sometimes two skills really naturally combine well together. So you put yourself in a position where you could use your fluent Japanese with your legal skills. And I think, especially around the time you started working in Japan, that was still rather rare. Now, of course, more people graduate with Japanese and law so it's a bit more competitive in terms of companies looking for truly bilingual attorneys to support them.

But at least 10, 15 years ago, it really was rare to find an experienced attorney who also spoke Japanese and who wanted to work in Tokyo. Or elsewhere in Japan, which brings me to a question about some of my favourite anecdotes of you working in Osaka for a few years. Which is a little bit out of the box again. You haven’t spent your entire Japan career working in Tokyo, like many of us have. And so I'm wondering if you can talk about that experience a little bit.

Catherine: Oh my yes, of course. So my one year contract was with Olympus and Tokyo, and then I just sort of really wanted to stay in Japan a while, and the next job opportunity that came up was in fact, moving to Osaka, to work with Panasonic.

Of course, at that time they were called Matsushita under the founder's name. I had never been to Osaka. I didn't know anybody there. I heard they spoke some funny dialect, could I survive? And I heard also the summers were astronomically hot, but anyway, I did take up this opportunity to be a senior in-house legal counsel at Panasonic and moved down there.

And as you know, my secret story about wearing the company uniform, by many a lawyer, I got teased by, for wearing that uniform. But, you know, I did wear it. I remember being measured up for it. And I even remember being asked prior to that, do I want to wear it or not? And they asked me several times to make sure that I actually did want to wear it.

And I think they wanted us to wear it. And because we would then become part of the team and that's really important at a company like a big traditional company, like Panasonic, because they want you to be a real team player and a team member. So wearing the uniform bow tie, waist coat, houndstooth skirt and all of that.

Yeah, that's what I did. And I did that for four years. And I wore it in summer and winter. It was so hot and sticky, but I did it and that was all part of it. So that was one of the big stories, was wearing the company uniform. I'm not sure if I'm the first lawyer to ever do that, but probably I could be. 

Angela: Well, maybe the only. Actually I remember that you and I bonded many years ago, and this is probably showing my age as well, over the fact that Panasonic and many companies in Japan, everyone got together at a certain time in the morning and did “rajio taiso” (morning exercises).

And I remember that I was working out at a client site for a couple of months and I was doing rajio taiso for the very first time, since I'd been living in Japan and I was, you know, running this deal, but every morning at 9:00 AM, everyone had to go out into the parking lot and do group exercise together. And I remember Catherine, you and I were bonding over that at one point, because you'd also be doing that at Panasonic. 

Catherine: Exactly. And I think Panasonic went to the executive level of that one. We did it outside in the hot, hot, hot summer. We also sang the company song and then one person out of the group would do a speech in front of everybody.

And so it came to be my turn to do that every three or four weeks. I hated it. But I actually look back on it now and love it because it gave me another strength to be able to speak in front of others in Japanese mind you. So we did bond over that. It was amazing. Thanks for reminding me of that. 

Angela: I mean, it was a little while ago.

I have to be honest, but I remember us discussing it and talking about being outside in the middle of summer, because I think the time I was doing it, I was at the client site during summer which was a very interesting experience. 

So moving along after you finished working in Osaka, what did you do and what brought you to where you are today setting up your own law firm?

Catherine: Right. That's a great question. So after Panasonic, I did move back to Tokyo. During my time in Osaka lawyers used to visit Panasonic and would give us lectures and update us on the recent cases and law. And I remember, a lawyer from Hogan Lovells or Lovells as it was called then, coming down. And I sort of mentioned to him about, you know, always wanting to come back up to Tokyo.

So then that company, that law firm actually advertised a position. I applied for it and I got it. So it was kind of a halfway house, they didn't really want an associate in the firm so much as they wanted someone to go out on secondment. And so I got that job and I went off to secondment at Mitsubishi motors.

And I was in their legal department for two and a half years, and I really loved that place. It was just such a phenomenal place to work. I had such great experience with the General Counsel and the other American lawyers I worked with. So after that I came back into Hogan Lovells Tokyo office, but during the time I was at Mitsubishi, I'd studied the UK bar.

And so an offer came up from the partner in the corporate team to go to London office at Hogan Lovells. So I did do that and I went off to London, came back and then after coming back, I actually worked in Japan for another year. And in Tokyo during the earthquake, this is 2011, but I was headhunted by one of our mutual friends to go and set up the legal department at a US firm, a little bit out of Tokyo.

And so I went and did that for five years as head of legal for this subsidiary of a US company. And after that, I thought it was time to go and do my own thing. I turned 50 and it was a real turning point for me to think about the next steps where I wanted to be in 10 or 20 years. And I don't think I wanted to be an employee in a company or do anything that was me being employed by someone. So I moved off and that was the impetus then to start my own business where I am now. 

Angela: So this is, it's very exciting to hear of my friend, who's spent a long time working in a company, you know, very much like I have and then jumping out, I would say, to starting a new business. Because I think it's very, very different collecting a pay check from a company and being completely on your own, if you like, and responsible for everything. From meeting new clients, generating work and invoicing clients, really an A to Z of legal services, if you like, that you provide now. And you're responsible for all of that. Of course, during COVID, I imagine there's been some challenges with that. Let's get back to that in a minute. To kick things off, I'd like to ask you about your daily routine.

And I know that sounds like a really basic question, but I've had a lot of lawyers asking me, hey, what's your daily routine working at the Amazon Japan legal department? So I think they’d also be really interested to hear from you, what does your day look like? 

Catherine: Yeah. Thank you for that. Because in your episode, Angela, the calendarising that you have, the management of your calendar has really resonated with people, and your routine as well on the rowing machine.

So for me, from January this year, I really adopted this kind of health first, immunity first approach and intermittent fasting became a part of my life. So now I sort of finish eating around seven o'clock at night, and I'm not really eating anything until one o'clock the next day. And today's an example of that as well.

Every day is what I do. So fasting is not like a diet, but it's a lifestyle for me now. We humans really only need to eat twice a day. The three times a day came around with, you know, the 40 hour week and hard labor. But we're not really doing that so much now. To say, what is my day? It usually starts at six o'clock.

I wake up, I will weigh myself. Then I'll have about a PET bottle full, like a 500 mls of water, a green tea, and I'll get started for the day. So 7:30. I'm typically at my desk. I'm usually trying to do some creative work before I start client work. So I try and get a chapter out of a book. Maybe it's a novel or a business success kind of book.

And then do the plan for the day's work. Usually top five things I need to get out the door and I love to have a “to done” list, right? So I have a list and I have a bold red pen that I put a cross through and tick it. Cause I think that gives you a really good dose of happiness to the brain. 

8 o'clock, 8:30, I'm usually on calls. There may be mastermind groups. I'm on a couple of those for self-development. Usually around mid morning, I might be doing a podcast episode as we are today and I'd jump online and do the recording and look at social media content, getting the social media posts and commenting on those, is a big part of what I do

Around 10 I'm probably on my second coffee of the day, do try to keep to only two a day. I used to be on six, and taking in client calls or doing client work. Lunchtime, I usually knock off. I will go out for a walk. And keep sort of active around the middle of the day that may shift as we get into summer into the beginning of the day.

And usually in the evening, I have different activities that I do for different organisations. Like I'm involved in FEW Japan, I'm involved in Women in Law Japan, and a lot of the chambers of commerce. So there's often meetings at that end of the day. But before I get to that part, I'm usually on client secondments.

So part of my business is doing secondments for clients. So I have blocks of hours in my day that I work for a certain client. So that's really how I work my day. And normally I'm lights off by 10 o'clock to get beauty sleep for the next day. 

Angela: Well, thanks for that. Quite a few of the things that you said really resonated with me, I think.

As you know, I'm someone who's pretty tough at my calendar. I really do manage my calendar ruthlessly. And I always suggest to the attorneys in my team that they do the same thing. I was really happy to hear that you blocked your calendar, not just for client work, which I think is so important, whether you're working for a company or you have your own business, whatever that is. It might not even be, you know, working as a lawyer, it might be completely different kind of business. I think it's really important to block your time, not just for health-related activities, but also for social media, if you're working on social media a lot to support your business, or for self-development or creative work, like you said, because I think if you're not blocking your calendar, then things don't get done.

If you're like me anyway, some people manage to get things done without blocking their calendar, but I'm definitely not one of them.

Catherine: It's so true. It sounds like, oh, block your calendar. How do you do that? Or it's easy to do, but actually it's quite hard to do, but once you do it and get into the routine of doing it, it's really fabulous for, as you say, being able to do self-development things and being able to just even, you know, recently I've learned about creating white space in my calendar, which is actually having nothing, even though it's blocked out and then enables you to be able to actually take the chance to do something inspirational. 

So it might be that someone rings you for a coffee and you've blocked out that space. You can actually go and do it without having to shift anything else or something else just might come up that you decide you're going to go and I might walk up Tokyo Tower today, or I might go and do something. An exhibition is on and I want to go and see that exhibition at the art gallery. If you've blocked time, you can have room for inspiration. So I'm also blocking calendar for the so-called white space, which is really remarkable.

Angela:  I think that’s amazing.

I think that the trap that a lot of people fall into, including myself, is feeling guilty for blocking time that's not directly connected to client work, and blocking time for white space, it feels like it could be redundant in terms of oh, you know, I'm pursuing some new work or I need to get some client work done, but actually it's during that time, when you have a bit of time to breathe, I think that you come up with your biggest and your best ideas.

Catherine: Yeah. We're constantly doing fill, fill, fill, you know, make it bigger, make it bigger, but actually empty, empty, empty is the way to be. And then you can fill it with something else if you want to. You can fill it with work or fill it with whatever you like. But I find if you have white space, you actually end up filling it with joyous things or even just sitting at your desk with your head down and having a rest.

It can be anything. So I really recommend that creation of that sort of blank, white space in your calendar too.

Angela:  I completely agree. This is my takeaway for today, so far, actually. Something I'll be sending a message around to my team about very shortly. 

Catherine: I'm really glad to hear that. I'm really glad to hear that. I should actually give the kudos to a lovely lady called Aya, who is a former model.

You know Aya, I think, and Aya is the one who suggested this white space concept to me. And I hadn't thought about it actively before that, but she made me really think about it. 

Angela: That's great. So I want to move on to a bit of a different topic. I think you've already touched on it a little, but I think our listeners would be, actually when I say our listeners, I mean your listeners, given that I'm actually crashing your podcast, but I think your listeners would love to hear what success means to you. So how do you encourage yourself? Do you have a theme word for the year? Which is one of my favourite questions you asked me, and if you were not a lawyer, what would you be?

Catherine: So the theme word of my year, this year is intentional. And I think when you're intentional, you choose to make your decisions and you take actions on what's really important to you and you get really clear upfront about what you want to achieve and, you know, setting that intention.

So it's been really a guiding word for me this year. And previous years I've had different words; last year was next level, the year before that was audacious. So I try to have a word like that. And that sort of comes through the self-development masterminds I've been doing with my executive coach.

So that works really well for me. In terms of mindset and encouraging myself… yeah, I think that I basically try to have a positive mindset. When I was really young, Tanya, who I mentioned before, gave me a piece of paper with a little phrase on it about attitude and attitude is the only thing we can control, our own attitude.

So when you wake up in the morning, you can either be happy or you can be sad or angry or grumpy about the night before or the day before. That attitude, little mantra I've got still sitting in my wallet is really looking very old and shabby right now, but it's so important. And I often pull it out to think about again, attitude.

So I try to start with a really great attitude. If things are not going well. It's easy to say I just get over them. I never did used to get rid of them very quickly, but through coaching and recognising ways and means to get over things, I'm able to get over things that come across my path, speed bumps, get over them a little bit more quickly than I used to.

So the guiding word of intentional really helps me. I've got a couple of other words that I also have like graceful and tingle. So graceful is to me when I want to turn something down, say no to, or I want to take away some bad energy from where I am. I'll gracefully try and remove that. And also tingle really makes me feel good as a word because it means I do things that make me feel like that. If I do it and it makes me tingle, then that's a good thing to do.

And surrounding myself with people such as yourself, Angela, who make me feel tingly and give me good vibes. So those things are really good. What would I be if I wasn't a lawyer? It's really interesting. I remember doing hopscotch back in the day with my friends at school and we all want it to be air hostesses.

And I think I just said that because everyone said that, but I think the guiding thing that's been there for me forever is always to be a teacher and I never did become a teacher or apply to be one. But in my third form at school, when I was 13, I had a fantastic English teacher, Mrs. Stone. I don't know if she's still around, but she inspired me about what teaching should be. Someone who really cared for her students.

So at that time I thought that was the thing to do. And to be the, kind of, do the things, I think, do the things that you love most about what you see in a person. So I wanted to be that kind of teacher. And so I think probably if I wasn't a lawyer, I might be a teacher, but at the same time, I'm really creative and I love designing and making things.

So I'd really like to just be like an interior designer or something like that, where I can actually use those skills and create those beautiful environments with gold and turquoise and things like that, that I'd really love to do. So that would be my dream to be an interior designer, but probably a teacher is also a really sturdy thing to do well.

Angela: Well, it's never too late as they say.

Catherine: Exactly. 

Angela: I know we have a lot of younger professionals who are listening to your podcast. When I say younger, I mean just slightly younger than you and myself. 

Catherine: Indeed. 

Angela: What advice would you give young lawyers? Given all of your experiences.

Catherine: Yeah, I would say first up, would be believe in yourself, right?

Just really believe in yourself. It sounds maybe corny, but it's really important to know yourself and believe in yourself. And the other one would be probably conventional, but it would be that word from a couple of years ago, audacious. The best innovation and the best parts of yourself come about from challenging the status quo.

So I would say that, and also keeping mental health as a priority is really important. Especially as young lawyers are coming up now. It wasn't really prioritised, I think, when you and I went through law school, or first years of law, no one talked about looking after your mental health. It was something you never spoke about.

But I would say those things are the main things, but also I would say, keep an open mind and learn about different areas of the law. Be really flexible, trying different kinds of work and just help you to help yourself to figure out what is most enjoyable for you, because really your work should bring you joy.

The most successful careers are not crafted around design. You don't say what you're going to do in one year or five years. I really haven't found many people who do that. And it certainly hasn't been that way for me. It's opportunities that have come up, that lawyer in Osaka who invited me back, right, into the firm, things like that.

So the other tip would be, if you're not satisfied with your current situation, take the initiative and ask for changes within the firm or the company that you're with and move towards what you really want to be and what you really want to do. You'll find in some of the podcast episodes, the guests have put up their hand and said what they wanted to do.

And once people have heard that they've actually been able to be taken along that path. So you never know what's possible until you ask. 

Angela:  I think that's exactly right. And what I've been hearing, especially during COVID, with things still nowhere near being back to normal, whatever that means here in Japan...

That it's very important also to be flexible. And I think that's what is coming across in what you're saying as well. You don't want to get stuck doing something that you actually might not even like and not be willing to be flexible within your own company, or law firm, or whatever organisation you're working within, or in your own company, or your own business.

It's very important to be flexible, especially I think when times are tougher, like they have been in COVID for many companies and individuals working in those companies.

Catherine:So true. I mean, the flexibility thing is something you, kind of, may not be born with, but you build your muscle with the more times you try it.

So even when you think you can't do something, if you just try, move 1% further towards that, you will start to build this flexibility muscle. I mean, when I was back in New Zealand, if someone had said to me, you will in the future own your own law firm in Tokyo, I would have laughed because it would not have sounded realistic to me, but over time I've built this muscle, I will call it, to be flexible with the things that have come across my path and just take it as it comes. 

So I think you're right. Flexibility is really an important skill. And if people haven't built it up over the last 18 months, I'm really not sure when they will. There's still time because we are in a pandemic, but certainly that's been a key to me having success over the last 18 months during the pandemic.

Angela: Actually one thing that's really, really impressed me about you during the pandemic in particular, Catherine, and I know that this wasn't part of the preparation for this podcast, was how positive and flexible you've been given that COVID has provided some really out of the box challenges, especially for small businesses in the service industry.

I think you'd agree. Do you have any suggestions for other listeners who might've been going through a similar kind of struggle, if you like, during COVID to adjust their businesses or how they're working?

Catherine: I think for me I sought out help from others, but at the same time, people were seeking help from me. And that was actually what made the difference, is that people were finally, I guess not finally, that's not the right word, but people were recognising that a lawyer or that a person who is a lawyer with empathy can be someone to go to in a time of crisis. 

And so, different to other times when people came to me with new business ideas or perhaps something that had gone wrong and we could fix it up with a quick letter or a quick email, these were people who were entirely struggling. 

People who are running their own Airbnb businesses, or hadn't been paid the last couple of invoices, small businesses, and finding that sort of higher purpose of me as a lawyer, knowing that people actually needed me for something that was critically going to make a difference in their lives, like quite literally, made me feel more, I guess it made me feel more needed and more necessary for others and to really go and help them. 

So I did a lot of work in the very beginning of basically pro bono where people would ring and I would spend time just talking and letting them talk and giving them a pathway.

Maybe not advice that they could act on, perhaps it was advice they could act on, but just being there for people at the beginning. And then the positivity came from me actually drawing a line in the sand. I remember in March thinking, and I think in your podcast, you talked about falling into the wallpaper and I love that expression.

I did not want to be a lawyer who was falling into the wallpaper and not being seen. I drew a line in the sand and I just said, I'm going to go out there, I'm going to be seen, I'm going to be visible, I'm going to help people. And so doing that meant I actually made 10 times more effort, to have a smile on screen, to have a really nice background in my photos that showed energy, and when I say in my background in my photos, I mean background in my zoom screen and just show a different approach.

I got dressed every day. I got made up every day. I wore a different outfit. I didn't go into sweats, and going into sweats is fine, but it wasn't for me. I wanted to show I was out there and positive, and that led to winning several awards last year as well, in 2020, entrepreneur of the year, leader of the year, one of the other chambers.

And that came about because I made a definite decision in my mind. And if you flounder and don’t actually be intentional and think about the way you're going to lead your life during a pandemic, despite what's going on, when you can't change any of that, you can only do what you can do. And it goes back to that attitude thing.

I could only control what I could control myself. And so I made it as positive as I could. And that just got me through. Positivity is an amazing thing and we can draw it out. And I think changing our surroundings helps us as well.

Angela:  I agree. Actually, this is a great segue into my nearly final question for you, Catherine. You are involved in a lot of outside areas in various organisations and clubs and so on, and you've already touched on a few of them, but I think your listeners would really love to hear a little bit more about all of those outside activities that you're so closely involved with.

Catherine: Well, thanks for asking that because they really are passions of mine. It's been said to me, wow, you're really successful and you can do all of that because you're not married and don't have kids. And that really is not the way it is. I think you can do anything you put your mind to, if you divide up your time. If you've got a nice clean calendar, I think it can lead you there. 

But thank you for that because those things that I'm involved in really mean a lot to me, for example, Women in Law Japan, you were one of the first to set that up, right?

That was your organisation that you started. And now I'm president this year and I've started on a basis that was set by you and Rika Beppu. [35:39] And I'm loving that because there's a group of 12 or so other female lawyers who are in the team, a mix of, you know, general councils, and people working in house who've just left  BigLaw and now in-house, and those who are working private practice, and we're a really tight knit unit. I wasn't sure at the beginning, because it was a bit scattered, but now it's really come together and everyone's doing lots of great things, and we do events each month that are based on sharing legal topics and those kinds of workshops that will help lawyers. So that's one big area. 

The other area would be the chambers of commerce. And of course, Australia New Zealand Chamber of Commerce in Japan. I'm a vice chair there. And that gives me my New Zealand and Australian, I guess keeps me in the mix of the New Zealand and Australia business area.

And I love that as well. And then I also am on the American Chamber of Commerce and their legal services and IP committee. I'm a co-chair there with Scott, Scott Warren, and we have lots of fun doing events for the legal and IP community who are members of the chamber there. And that's a great role because they're the biggest business networking organisation in Tokyo, 3000 members.

So I get a really great exposure there and part of the work that I did last year, the standing out and being prominent, was through the American Chamber. And third would be the other couple of chambers I'm involved in; Irish, the Ireland Japan Chamber, and the British Chamber, and just, they're all very different in their personalities and the way they do their work.

But those are the things that I'm mostly involved in. And then I mentioned FEW Japan and I'm an organisational member there. And I provide them with pro bono services over a two year period. So they ask me to review contracts or check certain things that they need to do from a legal perspective.

And I help them out there as a kind of volunteer on that kind of work as well. So those things all bring a life and enrichment to me, and I love being involved in them and serving and volunteering my time to help others. 

Angela: Great. Well, I hope you've got a few more minutes, cause I wanted to ask you a few wrap up questions, especially given this is your final session for your first series in what I hope will be many series of these podcasts.

So can you share with your listeners what podcast or podcasts you're listening to at the moment and any good books that you would recommend?

Catherine: I can. I've got quite a few. Is this okay to give you the whole rundown? 

Angela: Absolutely. 

Catherine: Thank you. Well, I do listen to a podcast normally when I'm out walking and I mix between them.

I'm never faithful to just one podcast. I listen all over the show. So one is called Counsel to Counsel by Stephen Seckler And that's a great one. I also love the podcast that one of my guests Yuka Hongo listens to. And that is Be that Lawyer by Steve Fretzin. I listened to that religiously. And the other one I really love is The Thought Leadership Podcast.

And that's run by Jay Harrington and Tom Nixon. Especially Jay. I love his approach to lawyering. He's now an advisor to lawyers and I just like his way, and I’d really recommend people follow him on LinkedIn as well. And then I've just finished two amazing books. One was a memoir by Karen Hill Anton called TheView from Breast Pocket Mountain.

That's amazing. The second book is an incredibly amazing book, more than enough by Elaine Welteroth. And she is the inspiration for my podcast actually, because she said there's so much wisdom locked up in the stories women never tell. So I'm trying to amplify those stories through this podcast. And the last book I'm reading right now, I'm nearly finished, is a New York Times bestseller Lead from the Outside by Stacy Abrams, and many will know her name as the governor of the state of Georgia in the US, she just got in this last election.

Angela: Great. Well, that's going to keep everyone very busy. I don't know how you have time to fit all of this in.

Catherine:  I make time. That's the thing, I make time. I love it. 

Angela: You make time. So I just want to get a couple more fun questions in if you don't mind and I’m sure we'll find some time. When you can travel again, where are you going to go first?

Because I know that you, like me, have been in Japan since the pandemic started, and we've all got slightly itchy feet at this point.

Catherine: Yes, exactly.

Angela: And I'm sure your listeners would love to hear where you're going to go.

Catherine: Yeah. I think you had said you wanted to see your family in Australia and mine would be the same, to see my family and friends in New Zealand. Go back and be there for a little while.

After that visit, I'd really love to go and visit my friend in Portugal. She's just moved there from the US. Uplifted herself and taken up a new, new life in a brand new country. And I am fascinated by that. So I'd love to go and see her in her new place in Portugal as well. 

Angela: Wow. And then one wrap up question, tell us something that we don't know about you. 

Catherine: That's interesting. What don't you know about me? Do you know that my two front teeth are actually not my own, they're made of porcelain? Do you know that? 

Angela: I did know that actually.

Catherine: Do you know that I have a love for war planes? So aeroplanes that were used in the world wars. 

My dad was a part-time pilot. He used to fly Cherokees and Cessnas and things as a sort of hobby. During my early days with dad and three brothers, I grew to love airplanes, like nothing else. And so in New Zealand every even year, so that should be next year, 2022, they have Warbirds over Wanaka. Wanaka’s the beautiful place in central Otago and all different Warbirds, as in war planes, get together there, and there's a sort of airshow.

So I love the P 51 Mustang. It's an American Mustang. It's called the Rolls Royce of the sky. And I love that airplane. So I'm planning to be paying for a flight in that plane the next time I'm back in New Zealand, because I can't wait to do that. I've put it off and put it off, but I'm going to go in that Mustang.

So that's something you probably didn't know about me.

Angela:  I definitely did not know that about you, Catherine, but this just goes to show that you can know someone for decades and they can still tell you something that just completely is left of center like that. Now on that note, I'm hoping that you can spare 10 more minutes because I would like to introduce to all of your listeners, the most fabulous Jayne Nakata.

I think that many of you have kind of heard of Jayne being right behind the scenes of Catherine's incredible podcast series, Lawyer on Air, but you may not know that Jayne also has her own business and her business is to help podcasters, especially those in Japan, launch their shows successfully just like she's done with Catherine.

And you can find Jayne on her own podcast, which I listened to this morning on the way into the office at Transformations with Jayne. So on that note, I'd like to welcome Jayne as another truly surprise guest because Catherine's looking a little surprised right now, and hand this podcast over to Jayne. 

Jayne: Hello hello everyone. Thank you for that wonderful welcome Angela. I'm quite, well, I'm quite excited to be stepping out from behind the back end of this podcast and appearing for the first time on Lawyer on Air. Catherine has been a pleasure working with you over these 10 episodes that we have created for season one. And it's been a great learning curve for both of us.

You have grown as a host and me as a producer in the background and all of that. So it's been such a fun chance to work together on these episodes. And I've been a bit sneaky. You may not know that I actually contacted all of your guests that you have had over the last, now it’s 10 episodes, and I collected some beautiful messages for you from your guests.

And I hope you don't mind if I read out some of these messages for you now. 

Catherine: Wow. I don't know what to say. I've got goosebumps that's for sure. That's really lovely of you. Thank you, yes.

Jayne: So I think shall we start at number one? Well, we’ve got Angela as our first guest, And Angela, do you have anything that you'd like to say to Catherine?

Angela: I would like to say as one of Catherine's very long term friends, and I'm super impressed by what you've done with these podcasts. And I've seen you really grow during the podcasts. I think the first one, you and I were both a little rough. In the intervening nine, I have not improved at all, but you certainly have, and I think your podcasts have just become better and better during the series.

And you can join the ranks of the professional podcasters now. I wouldn't hesitate to recommend you, and it's just been a whole lot of fun working with you, and also secretly working with Jayne a little bit, the last couple of days, for her to jump into your final podcast for the first season, with some comments from your other guests.

Catherine: That's lovely Angela. And it doesn't surprise me that Jayne would do something like that because that's the magic of Jayne. But I didn't know, that's what's got me, but I'm really secretly, absolutely joyful right now that you've, you've managed to do another little trick there, Jayne. Well done you. Thank you, Angela. That was amazing. Thank you so much. 

Jayne: So I was very worried that someone was going to let the cat out of the bag because this was nine people or so that I had to manage and that somehow the email would go to the wrong, you'd get CC'd on an email or something and it would all explode, but somehow I managed to keep it under wraps until today.

So I'm super excited about that. So the second message is from our guest in episode two, who was Akiko Yamakawa. She’s recorded a voice message for you, and I'm just going to play that for you now. So please have a listen. 

Akiko: Hi, Catherine, this is Akiko. And thank you very much for having me as a guest on Lawyer on Air.

I really, really enjoyed participating. I also enjoyed all the other episodes, which I've listened to. The only episode I haven't listened to is actually mine because I just couldn't find the courage to listen to me speaking. And many people have told me that they enjoyed listening to my episode, and I was very surprised about how broad your audience is.

And also, well, if they said they enjoyed it, I was quite relieved that I probably didn't say anything too inappropriate. I also did recommend the show to our associates. Cause I thought it would be good when they are trying to think about their future career and they all were very grateful. I obviously told them not to listen to my episode because I was too hazukashii (embarrassed)to have them listen to my episode. But they said that there was no other show of the kind, which was in English and also talked about careers in law. And all my associates, both female and male, they all told me that they really enjoyed it. Myself, and also all of our associates are really looking forward to season two.

I hope we can catch up soon in person after this crazy world becomes a bit more normal. And again, thank you so much for having me on your show.

Catherine: Oh, Akiko. Thank you so much. You are delightful and I hope you will get the courage over summer to listen to your episode. It was great. 

Jayne: Okay. So let's head to episode three now.

One of our super fans and a guest, Aramide, has supported this show like nobody else I think. And she has sent you a beautiful message as well. So let me play that for you now, Catherine. 

Aramide: Hi, Catherine, this is Aramide Fields. And I wanted to say, congratulations on making it through season one of Lawyer on Air.

It has been such a wonderful podcast. Something I look forward to with every episode, you really know how to build anticipation and also deliver on wonderful content. It's been a wonderful window into the lives of multiple women in the legal community in Japan, or with a connection to Japan.

And also, I just wanted to thank you so much again, for having me as a guest on episode three of the podcast. It was so much fun and I really enjoy the way that you interview people. Your style is so unique. It's so you. It's warm, it's personable, you also have a wonderful way of weaving together different elements and themes throughout someone's career and just who they are as a person.

And also just sharing parts of your background and your experience. It just really, really comes naturally to you. And so kudos on that. And also just wanted to share with you some of the wonderful things that have happened since I've been on the podcast. One thing that I really did not anticipate is that people who either, I don't know very well, or maybe not even at all, reaching out and saying that they listened to the podcast that I was on and that there was something that connected with them, resonated with them, something that they appreciated hearing.

I didn't expect to hear that kind of positive feedback just from a simple thing as sitting down and chatting with you as if you were having a glass of wine somewhere. And then also another really unexpected, but wonderful, benefit was the connection that it had with my family. Just hearing stories of my mom and my brothers and my aunt Diane, who I mentioned in the episode. 

Just sharing what it was like for them to hear about what my experience has been, saying that they’re getting to know me better, or if I shared an experience that they remembered saying, oh yeah, that's how I saw it too. Or, you know, this is what my take was on a certain situation. So it was really a nice way to connect with my family that I didn't expect. So just all around fun experience and even better than that is just listening to all the great stories of women that you featured.

And I look forward to season two and beyond, I just can see this going on and on and on. And there's so many great women in our community, as you know, and I look forward to hearing more of their stories and maybe even hearing something from you. I know sometimes podcast hosts get the questions turned around on them and they get to be asked some of the great questions that you've posed.

So maybe that's just an idea for a future episode. But anyway, it's been again, thank you so much. It was a fun experience and I wish you all the best in season two and beyond. Thank you.

Catherine: Wow. Fabulous. And now you will know Aramide that in fact, yes, the tables were turned today and you've got your wish. 

I really loved that you have had people reach out to you. And I know I introduced a New Zealand lawyer to you who had flipped jobs, and she really is looking forward to connecting with you. And your family, oh my goodness, I never knew that that would be something that would help lawyers on this show, connect and speak with their families about their lives and the way that they experienced it and how their families did.

I really think that's a great thing. And I should share that again with my family and see how that goes. Thank you so much. Aramide. You're a top supporter. And, can I say it? I love you very much. Thank you.

Jayne: Yeah, that was great. Wasn't that? What a fabulous thing to have come out of appearing on a podcast. So episode four, Hitomi Komachi.

Yeah, we had some fabulous feedback about that episode. People loved her calendar diversity was it? Yes. And all of the different kinds of trainings and things that she spoke about. Some really great topics in that episode. So let's hear what Hitomi has to say as well. 

Hitomi: Hi Catherine. This is Hitomi, your fourth guest on your wonderful show, Lawyer on Air. I hope you're having a wonderful start of the summer. Thank you so much for the opportunity to be on your show. I really loved it and enjoyed it as you know, and I cannot wait to see you in person at Emilia my favorite wine/ pasta place. Hope to see you soon. Bye. 

Catherine: Thanks Hitomi, and I know her episode was just, resounded with so many people and the way that she took her path, and was never afraid and put her hand up.

I think she was one of our first guests who really said, I am going to do this. I want to do this. And did it. Thank you so much. Hitomi.

Jayne: Heading into episode five, Robyn. Amazing, amazing story about being a truly international lawyer. She has been everywhere. Hasn't she? And she gave us a written message. So I'm going to read it. Okay. So imagine this is Robyn talking to you. 

So she said my message to Catherine would be; that it was an opportunity for me to reflect on my career and to thank those people who had supported me along the way. Also, Catherine is really an incredibly talented interviewer, the way she draws out the deepest significance of what you're saying, so in some ways it's like therapy. 

Catherine: Wow therapy, maybe that's my future job. That's interesting. I'm really intrigued to hear that because it means that people have been able to go back into the past and pull out these gems that they sort of forgot about, or they never really got to say thanks to someone so that it's provided that chance is also a glorious silver lining.

Thank you so much, Robyn. 

Jayne: Alrighty. Episode six Mindy. That was another very popular episode and Mindy you've also been an amazing supporter of this podcast. So Mindy's is a little bit longer. So get ready, 

Catherine. I absolutely love your show and was a fan way before you asked me to be a guest.

You are a master at telling people's stories and finding the themes that run through their lives and careers. In tying together the different parts of my career journey, you were able to draw out connections between different experiences and inclinations that I hadn't been aware of myself. And you helped me realize the common threads that motivate me.

For example, I'd never realized before that, although I didn't become a therapist, as I thought I would, when I was in middle school. My favorite part of being a lawyer is listening to my client's issues and helping them identify and implement solutions to achieve their goals. I hadn't realized before how big and a part empathy and active listening play in my practice and how important it is to me to have a job where I can really use those skills to help people.

A lot of other great things came out of being on your show. My roommate from grad school and law school classmate, who I hadn't been in touch with for a while reached out and we reconnected. I connected with someone in Tokyo who has similar interests, but is not in the legal profession. So I probably never would have connected with her otherwise. 

We're planning to meet up once COVID settles down and will hopefully become friends. I connected with a listener in New York who has ties to Japan and also teaches legal writing. And perhaps most importantly, I tend to downplay my own successes and only see what I could have accomplished instead of appreciating what I have accomplished.

And you gave me the confidence to see that my journey can be instructive and even inspiring to others. 

Catherine: Wow, Mindy. That is absolutely awesome. You've almost, yeah, taken the words away from me. I have nothing to say, only I'm just so glad that it was a chance for you to reflect on what you're really good at.

And many lawyers are, and female lawyers, but we don't get the chance to say that. So I'm really glad, is that was one of the themes of this podcast to bring out those parts of people, the wisdom and the good things that they're good at. Bring that out and have them talk about it. So I'm really glad to hear that and all those people that you've reconnected with or newly connected with, phenomenal, I think that's something I never imagined. How utterly beautiful, thank you.

Jayne: That's amazing, these ripples that are coming from these podcast episodes and going off in different directions, really, really amazing. Episode seven; Yuka Hongo. She is in Hawaii and it was so amazing to see her speaking on the podcast. And I think she really got a lot from appearing on the podcast. And I think Catherine, you also helped her to see some of the things she maybe had dismissed about herself.

So I think it was a really great episode for her as well. She said, thank you, Catherine, for having me as a guest on Lawyer on Air, I was nervous to be on your podcast, but as you were an excellent facilitator, I felt at ease speaking on your show. I've received very positive feedback from those who've listened to my interview with you.

Please keep up with your great work on your podcast.

Catherine: I was so happy to have you Yuka and just to see your confidence zoom up, even since this. I can see it on LinkedIn. You are really active there and your website has changed. That was pre- the episode though, of course, but just to see the difference in you as well, I'm really happy and so glad I had you as a podcast guest. Thank you very much. 

Jayne: Yes. She's been an amazing supporter of the podcast and our episode eight was Naomi Koshi. She says it was a great honor to join your wonderful podcast. You have created a great platform for female lawyers to share and grow. I look forward to listening to season two of Lawyer on Air.

Thank you so much, Catherine. 

Catherine: Wow, Naomi. It's an honor to have had you. You're such an inspiration because of all the things that you've done and you continue to do, and you inspire me that the strength of one woman who can make a change and you really show that so very well. You are an example of a woman who can set her mind to it and do it.

And I hope that's an inspiration for everyone who listens to your episode. Thank you. 

Jayne: Now Lawyer on Air has become a platform. A wonderful platform for female lawyers. And finally, episode nine, Jenifer Rogers. So Jenifer did not have much time. To reply because her episode is just coming out, but she made sure to send a message for you as well.

She said, Catherine, congratulations on finishing your first podcast season. It was a privilege to be interviewed by you and to participate in your podcast. You are a gifted podcast host. You're so natural and genuine in your interview style that you manage to put your interviewees at ease and yet probe and pick on key areas of interest to your listeners.

Your passion for this really comes through. And I know that this will be the first of many successful podcasts seasons to come. 

Catherine: Oh, Jenifer, thank you so much. You're a great supporter. You have been all throughout the last year, just prodding me here and there. And you may not have noticed, but I really look up to you and your example that you set at the American Chamber, as a wonderful lawyer and leader.

And so thank you very, very much for that. I now feel the obligation obviously to do season two and as Jayne knows, we are already well into the planning for season two. So everyone can rest assured two is coming. Similar, but with also a few other tricks up our sleeves. 

Jayne: Yes, it's going to be a few surprises.

Now we know what we're doing, we have some really great surprises planned for season two. That's for sure. Catherine, any final words before we sign off for season one?

Catherine: Wow. I am so overwhelmed that this podcast has been more about everybody than it has been about me. It's also been about extending the conversations beyond the 60 minutes that we record on to social media, but beyond that, going into families and friends and people that we haven't seen for a long time.

I think that's astounding. I never envisaged something like that, but I really want it to be a community and a place where people can come back and listen again and get more inspiration for their future. And I just have big thanks to all the guests who said yes, and have put their hands up and I know the list is there for season two as well. 

I just look forward to going further forward with it. I thoroughly enjoy it. I said about being an interior decorator, but if I could be a podcaster all the time, Angela, I would do that of course as well. So that's really all from me. I'm just thrilled and overwhelmed that you both were being quite sneaky in the background.

Getting those comments back from everyone. That's just wonderful. And it has obviously made my day. So I will look forward to seeing everybody else again on the second season. And I would normally say, cheers, kampai and bye for now. But it's cheers, kampai and see you all again very, very soon. 

Jayne: Angela, you want to end with anything else before we go?

Angela: I’d just like to round the series off with just a huge thank you Catherine, for inviting me to participate as a guest, for letting me crash the episode today and not doing nearly as good a job as you would have done if the tables were turned. It's been an absolute pleasure and I'm very excited to see what's going to come in series two, given how popular series one was. So the only way is up. 

Catherine: Thanks, Angela. Yeah, the only way is up. I'm not going sideways or down, so we will go up and thank you for your support. And I know you will continue to be a fantastic supporter. Thank you for jumping in today. You've built up another new skill set to add to that list that you already have.

And I look forward to you keeping on listening, and also I look forward to having drinks with you at one of our favorite bars very soon. Thank you so much. 

Angela: Absolutely. Thanks Catherine. Thanks Jayne too. 

Catherine: Cheers. Kampai. Bye for now.

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